Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[tomas]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 05:18:57PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:53:13 +0200
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:49:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Anyone can "borrow" open source code, regardless of where it's hosted,
> > > pretty much by definition.
> > 
> > License restrictions apply.
> 
> Of course, but I didn't think that hosting the code on Github gives
> Microsoft more rights over it than if it were hosted somewhere else. Is
> there anything in the Github terms of service that grants Microsoft
> more rights over my code than the terms of the applicable license? And
> if you're assuming that Microsoft won't respect license terms, then
> once again, it won't matter where the code is hosted.

Whether training ML models on GNU GPL software and using their results
in code with an incompatible license (or the whole other way around,
using models trained on proprietary software to inject snippets into
free sowftware [1]) is OK or not is a discussion which is just beginning.
Here are two examples, by Matthew Garrett [2] and Julia Reda [3],
two persons who are known to think hard about free software licenses.

Enjoy :)

[1] Although I have the strong hunch (why, oh, why?) that Microsoft
   will be much more respectful of proprietary licenses than of free
   ones.

[2] https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/57615.html

[3] 
https://juliareda.eu/2021/07/github-copilot-is-not-infringing-your-copyright/


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Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[Celejar]

On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:53:13 +0200
 wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:49:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Anyone can "borrow" open source code, regardless of where it's hosted,
> > pretty much by definition.
> 
> License restrictions apply.

Of course, but I didn't think that hosting the code on Github gives
Microsoft more rights over it than if it were hosted somewhere else. Is
there anything in the Github terms of service that grants Microsoft
more rights over my code than the terms of the applicable license? And
if you're assuming that Microsoft won't respect license terms, then
once again, it won't matter where the code is hosted.

Celejar

Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[tomas]

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:49:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:

[...]

> Anyone can "borrow" open source code, regardless of where it's hosted,
> pretty much by definition.

License restrictions apply.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[Celejar]

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:48:03 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Sunday 25 July 2021 15:36:26 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:43:10PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On Sun 25 Jul 2021 at 09:34:42 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:27:23PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > > > > Why isn't this on Salsa instead of a Microsoft site?
> > > >
> > > > ...you're right. I won't touch github unless I'm forced to :-(
> > >
> > > I went to
> > >
> > >   https://github.com/alexpevzner/sane-airscan
> > >
> > > and found it full of very useful information. You will explain why
> > > Microsoft's involvement in the site should make me wary of advising
> > > users to go there?
> >
> > It is subtle, and you might disagree.
> >
> > I always wondered why github was worth 7.5 billion to Microsoft [1].
> > Surely it seemed a bit steep for "just" generating good will in the
> > "open source" (as they choose to call it) community?
> >
> > Of course, github succeeded in one thing: they managed to centralise
> > git, which is inherently decentral. Many people these days see github
> > as a synonym to git and can't bother to use git without github's
> > shiny web interface.
> >
> > This was, even before the acquisition, enough reason for me to keep
> > as much distance as possible between github and myself.
> >
> > But still, 7.5B?
> >
> > Now, with github copilot [2], things start making sense: github users
> > get support from an AI (GPT-3) for which Microsoft has an exclusive
> > license (only the service is available for mere mortals).
> >
> > They now have a strategic position on how code is written "out there",
> > at least, they hope to have it.
> >
> > Personally, I very much dislike the situation. It very much reminds
> > me of "The Evitable Conflict" [3] from Isaac Asimov, with the little
> > wart that Microsoft isn't bound by the Three Laws of Robotics, but
> > just by their shareholder value :-)
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Github#Acquisition_by_Microsoft
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub_Copilot
> > [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evitable_Conflict
> >
> >  - t
> 
> +100 Tomas, as it gives them free access to "borrow" some of the best 
> code out there. So the comparison to the underhanded compuserve and 

Anyone can "borrow" open source code, regardless of where it's hosted,
pretty much by definition.

Celejar

Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 26 July 2021 02:51:40 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:48:03PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
>

> Us old jeezers, always so full of history ;-)

We lived it.

> With a tip o' the hat to Rudyard Kipling [1].
>
> But I think that's enough off-topic, so I'll stop here :-)

;-)

> Cheers
>
> [1] https://www.classicshorts.com/stories/htlghs.html
>
>  - t


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[tomas]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:48:03PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> +100 Tomas, as it gives them free access to "borrow" some of the best 
> code out there. So the comparison to the underhanded compuserve and 
> apple (remember gif and firewire?) as a future dagger in our back is 
> very real. The face we see is ok, so far. But be prepared to face them 
> in court with evidence predating any copyright claims they may come up 
> with.

Us old jeezers, always so full of history ;-)

> Personally, that leapard has not changed its spots anymore than a real 
> one can.

  "They scuttled for days and days till they came to a great
  forest, 'sclusively full of trees and bushes and stripy, speckly,
  patchy-blatchy shadows, and there they hid: and after another
  long time, what with standing half in the shade and half out
  of it, and what with the slippery-slidy shadows of the trees
  falling on them, the Giraffe grew blotchy, and the Zebra grew
  stripy, and the Eland and the Koodoo grew darker, with little
  wavy grey lines on their backs like bark on a tree trunk; and so,
  though you could hear them and smell them, you could very seldom
  see them, and then only when you knew precisely where to look."

With a tip o' the hat to Rudyard Kipling [1].

But I think that's enough off-topic, so I'll stop here :-)

Cheers

[1] https://www.classicshorts.com/stories/htlghs.html

 - t


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Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 25 July 2021 15:36:26 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:43:10PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 25 Jul 2021 at 09:34:42 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:27:23PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > > > Why isn't this on Salsa instead of a Microsoft site?
> > >
> > > ...you're right. I won't touch github unless I'm forced to :-(
> >
> > I went to
> >
> >   https://github.com/alexpevzner/sane-airscan
> >
> > and found it full of very useful information. You will explain why
> > Microsoft's involvement in the site should make me wary of advising
> > users to go there?
>
> It is subtle, and you might disagree.
>
> I always wondered why github was worth 7.5 billion to Microsoft [1].
> Surely it seemed a bit steep for "just" generating good will in the
> "open source" (as they choose to call it) community?
>
> Of course, github succeeded in one thing: they managed to centralise
> git, which is inherently decentral. Many people these days see github
> as a synonym to git and can't bother to use git without github's
> shiny web interface.
>
> This was, even before the acquisition, enough reason for me to keep
> as much distance as possible between github and myself.
>
> But still, 7.5B?
>
> Now, with github copilot [2], things start making sense: github users
> get support from an AI (GPT-3) for which Microsoft has an exclusive
> license (only the service is available for mere mortals).
>
> They now have a strategic position on how code is written "out there",
> at least, they hope to have it.
>
> Personally, I very much dislike the situation. It very much reminds
> me of "The Evitable Conflict" [3] from Isaac Asimov, with the little
> wart that Microsoft isn't bound by the Three Laws of Robotics, but
> just by their shareholder value :-)
>
> Cheers
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Github#Acquisition_by_Microsoft
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub_Copilot
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evitable_Conflict
>
>  - t

+100 Tomas, as it gives them free access to "borrow" some of the best 
code out there. So the comparison to the underhanded compuserve and 
apple (remember gif and firewire?) as a future dagger in our back is 
very real. The face we see is ok, so far. But be prepared to face them 
in court with evidence predating any copyright claims they may come up 
with.

Personally, that leapard has not changed its spots anymore than a real 
one can.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[tomas]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 09:21:18PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 25 Jul 2021 at 21:36:26 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > It is subtle, and you might disagree.
> 
> My disagreement is based on my pragmetic attitude. Nobody is out to
> get us. Assume the best. A good Debian attitude, IMHO.

This would be a misunderstanding. I don't think Microsoft is out
to "get us". They couldn't care less. They're only out to maximise
their bottom line. If that involves making their customers dependent,
so be it.

Regarding their bottom line, /I/ couldn't care less, so it is somewhat
reciprocal :-)

[...]

> Thank you for your coherent argument. I appreciate the concerns. For
> now I can work with github in the limited way I do.

I'm glad that it seems to make kind of sense. I found it difficult
to find words for it.

> I like Asimov. I like the reference. Like 1984, is it the present or
> the future?

Yeah, the strength of that story is that the judgement is left to the
reader.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[Brian]

On Sun 25 Jul 2021 at 21:36:26 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:43:10PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sun 25 Jul 2021 at 09:34:42 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:27:23PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Why isn't this on Salsa instead of a Microsoft site?
> > > 
> > > ...you're right. I won't touch github unless I'm forced to :-(
> > 
> > I went to
> > 
> >   https://github.com/alexpevzner/sane-airscan
> > 
> > and found it full of very useful information. You will explain why
> > Microsoft's involvement in the site should make me wary of advising
> > users to go there?
> 
> It is subtle, and you might disagree.

My disagreement is based on my pragmetic attitude. Nobody is out to
get us. Assume the best. A good Debian attitude, IMHO.

> I always wondered why github was worth 7.5 billion to Microsoft [1].
> Surely it seemed a bit steep for "just" generating good will in the
> "open source" (as they choose to call it) community?
> 
> Of course, github succeeded in one thing: they managed to centralise
> git, which is inherently decentral. Many people these days see github
> as a synonym to git and can't bother to use git without github's
> shiny web interface.
> 
> This was, even before the acquisition, enough reason for me to keep
> as much distance as possible between github and myself.
> 
> But still, 7.5B?
> 
> Now, with github copilot [2], things start making sense: github users
> get support from an AI (GPT-3) for which Microsoft has an exclusive
> license (only the service is available for mere mortals).
> 
> They now have a strategic position on how code is written "out there",
> at least, they hope to have it.
> 
> Personally, I very much dislike the situation. It very much reminds
> me of "The Evitable Conflict" [3] from Isaac Asimov, with the little
> wart that Microsoft isn't bound by the Three Laws of Robotics, but
> just by their shareholder value :-)

Thank you for your coherent argument. I appreciate the concerns. For
now I can work with github in the limited way I do.

I like Asimov. I like the reference. Like 1984, is it the present or
the future?

-- 
Brian.

Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[tomas]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 03:58:13PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> Hi,

[...]

> In the next ten years, people will be coding less and less as we do it.
> We'll drive some AI process for coding.

For now, it's web frameworks :-/

> If you speak French, I'd suggest this video.

I'll have a look (although I tend to stay away from youtube; luckily
there's youtube-dl).

> Ethics of AI and risk to humanity.
> Without Facebook dataset, I doubt Cambridge Analytica would have been
> able to do something. And as AI become more powerful, it will be easier
> and easier to outsmart the least smart ones.

Yeah. Have a look at GPT-3 (the thing used in git copilot). It's somewhat
scary already.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: [OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Hi,

On 2021-07-25 3:36 p.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> Of course, github succeeded in one thing: they managed to centralise
> git, which is inherently decentral. Many people these days see github
> as a synonym to git and can't bother to use git without github's
> shiny web interface.
> 
They managed to create two things :
A central point of failure in the workflow (Github)
A user base willing to pay the day it will become pay-only.
> This was, even before the acquisition, enough reason for me to keep
> as much distance as possible between github and myself.
> 
> But still, 7.5B?
> 
> Now, with github copilot [2], things start making sense: github users
> get support from an AI (GPT-3) for which Microsoft has an exclusive
> license (only the service is available for mere mortals).
> 
> They now have a strategic position on how code is written "out there",
> at least, they hope to have it.
> 
In the next ten years, people will be coding less and less as we do it.
We'll drive some AI process for coding.
And when it comes to AI, algorithm may have some important role but
what's worth the most is the dataset for training.
And this is nearly all in the private sector now (owned by big corporation).

If you speak French, I'd suggest this video.

Ethics of AI and risk to humanity.
Without Facebook dataset, I doubt Cambridge Analytica would have been
able to do something. And as AI become more powerful, it will be easier
and easier to outsmart the least smart ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3WOPKNvbt8
> Personally, I very much dislike the situation. It very much reminds
> me of "The Evitable Conflict" [3] from Isaac Asimov, with the little
> wart that Microsoft isn't bound by the Three Laws of Robotics, but
> just by their shareholder value :-)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Github#Acquisition_by_Microsoft
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub_Copilot
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evitable_Conflict
> 
>  - t
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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[OT] Why I don't like github [was: Please help to test latest Debian 11 release candidate on real] hardware

[tomas]

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:43:10PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 25 Jul 2021 at 09:34:42 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:27:23PM -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:
> > 
> > > Why isn't this on Salsa instead of a Microsoft site?
> > 
> > ...you're right. I won't touch github unless I'm forced to :-(
> 
> I went to
> 
>   https://github.com/alexpevzner/sane-airscan
> 
> and found it full of very useful information. You will explain why
> Microsoft's involvement in the site should make me wary of advising
> users to go there?

It is subtle, and you might disagree.

I always wondered why github was worth 7.5 billion to Microsoft [1].
Surely it seemed a bit steep for "just" generating good will in the
"open source" (as they choose to call it) community?

Of course, github succeeded in one thing: they managed to centralise
git, which is inherently decentral. Many people these days see github
as a synonym to git and can't bother to use git without github's
shiny web interface.

This was, even before the acquisition, enough reason for me to keep
as much distance as possible between github and myself.

But still, 7.5B?

Now, with github copilot [2], things start making sense: github users
get support from an AI (GPT-3) for which Microsoft has an exclusive
license (only the service is available for mere mortals).

They now have a strategic position on how code is written "out there",
at least, they hope to have it.

Personally, I very much dislike the situation. It very much reminds
me of "The Evitable Conflict" [3] from Isaac Asimov, with the little
wart that Microsoft isn't bound by the Three Laws of Robotics, but
just by their shareholder value :-)

Cheers

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Github#Acquisition_by_Microsoft
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GitHub_Copilot
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evitable_Conflict

 - t


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