Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Tue 08 May 2018 at 14:32:20 +0100, jpff wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2018, Brian wrote: > > > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:17:07 +0100, jpff wrote: > > > > > Things are getting better if not quite right. I have a lean x/fvwm system > > > installed and I have managed to get an xterm displayed. The major issues > > > I > > > have left outstanding are > > > > If you have fvwm on the system it was installed after first boot. To > > state the obvious, either WiFi or ethernet was used. Which one was it? > > > I did a complete reinstall using wired network, but ensured no desktp of any > kind. Then added the most obvious things like fvwm, exim, emacs and some > others Now, that went very well - didn't it. Good. > > > > > 1: The X40 has a three-mbutton trackpoint but while button 1 works, > > > button > > > 2 has no affect and button 3 does what button 2 should do. Not seen that > > > before and not sure where to look. > > > > > Dunno. It is not critical. Put it on the back burner. > > Just makes it hard to se. The middle button works in xterm but not in fvwm. > Maybe not critical but a problem for my fingers who have been doing this for > so long Priorities. > > > 2: Still no wifi. iwconfig allows me to set key and essid etc but ifup > > > says it has not heard about wlp2s2 which is the name "ip link" gives. > > > Sometimes the wifi is active judging from the flashing of the lights but > > > no > > > connection. I am used to using ifconfig/iwconfig on other machines. > > > > You have installed wireless-tools (the installer doesn't). You could > > also install net-tools if you feel more comfortable with it. Please > > post the contents of /etc/network/interfaces and the output of 'ip a'. > > > I have net-tools, not sure about wireless-tools. Will check when I can get > back to a wired location. On the 64bit laptop at present ssh'ed into the > Debian firewall. > > > > 3: My wifi is WPA-PSK (I think version 2). Is teresoe package I eed for > > > this? Just realised that I have never used wifi on debian boxes > > > > Apart from wpasupplicant, no. > > I see evidence of some wps- files but not akl I expect from other systems > > > > > > And again thank you all for your advice and comments. It is getting > > > better. > > > > Answering a question or two might see a dramatic increase in betterness. > > > > AFIK I have answered all questions; apologies if I am being unclear. In the mail you are responding to > Please post the contents of /etc/network/interfaces and the > output of 'ip a'. A third request: The wireless device. Chipset etc. 'lspci' or 'lsusb' should help. -- Brian. > > -- > > Brian. > > > > ==John ff >
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Tue, 8 May 2018 08:33:47 -0400 Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 07:58:54AM -0400, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: > > On 5/8/18, Curt wrote: > > > I downloaded 'debian-9.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso' and booted it in > > > kvm and *it does work* as advertised here, so I don't know what > > > accounts for your difficulty, Dan. > > > Ok, that's really weird, then. What factor could possibly cause that > > kind of difference at that very early point in the use of Debian? > > The installer can be booted in either Legacy or UEFI mode. Perhaps > the menus work differently between those two? I haven't had to do a > Legacy install in quite some time. > The installer boot menu here shows (with different horizontal alignment): Debian GNU/Linux 9.4.0 Debian GNU/Linux UEFI Installer Menu Graphical Install Install Advanced Options ... Install with speech synthesis Enter: Select E: Edit Selection C: GRUB Command line ...tabs have no effect. The iso is on CD and was obtained from the following mirror: http://debian.gtisc.gatech.edu/debian/ - Dan
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
The next installment I booted the machine just recently and I am not sure what I did but I noticed that both the wired and wifi interfaes were up. I took the wired down ifconfig enp2s1 down and it continued to ping my gateway and the bbc. More than that it allowed be to use aptitude to get firefox. I tried a number of changes to /etc/network/interfaces and I seem to have it working. So now back to installing compilers and development tools As ever I apologise for what were probably trivia questions. My only excuse is age -- I predate networks and operating systems.
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
AAArgh. I forgot that Dan is using a selfish bullshit spam-multiplying system. EOD. On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 02:53:56PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >Dan wrote: >>On Mon, 7 May 2018 15:30:54 + (UTC) >>Curt wrote: ... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com Dance like no one's watching. Encrypt like everyone is. - @torproject
Re: 3-button trackpoint configuration (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
jpff composed on 2018-05-08 14:32 (UTC+0100): > Brian wrote: >> On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:17:07 +0100, jpff wrote: >>> 1: The X40 has a three-mbutton trackpoint but while button 1 works, button >>> 2 has no affect and button 3 does what button 2 should do. Not seen that >>> before and not sure where to look. > > Dunno. It is not critical. Put it on the back burner. > Just makes it hard to se. The middle button works in xterm but not in > fvwm. Maybe not critical but a problem for my fingers who have been doing > this for so long I don't have anything with a Trackpoint, but it looks to me like putting Section "InputClass" # Novell Bug #597214 Identifier "IBM TPPS/2 TrackPoint" MatchProduct"TPPS/2 IBM TrackPoint" MatchIsPointer "on" Driver "evdev" Option "EmulateWheel" "on" Option "EmulateWheelButton""2" Option "YAxisMapping""4 5" Option "XAxisMapping""6 7" Option "Emulate3Buttons""on" Option "EmulateWheelTimeout""200" EndSection or similar in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/11-trackpoint.conf might fix it. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
Dan wrote: >On Mon, 7 May 2018 15:30:54 + (UTC) >Curt wrote: >> >> I should have just referred you to the Debian Handbook here: >> >> https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.installation-steps.html >> >> Each menu entry hides a specific boot command line, which can be >> configured as needed by pressing the TAB key before validating the >> entry and booting. The âHelpâ menu entry displays the old command >> line interface, where the F1 to F10 keys display different help >> screens detailing the various options available at the prompt. You >> will rarely need to use this option except in very specific cases. >> > >Unfortunately, that does not work. The Boot Screen does not look like >"Figure 4.1. Boot screen" and more to the point, tab has no effect. One >can move selection up or down, enter to select, E to edit, or C for >a GRUB command line. Boot a Debian 9.4 netinst iso and you'll see >what I mean. There are differences here, depending on how your system is booting. If you're in (legacy/BIOS/CSM) mode, then you'll get the boot screen as described (isolinux). If you're booting in UEFI mode, you'll be using Grub instead. You'll get the same menu structure, but interacting with it is slightly different in the details (as you've noted). >What's the kernel here? The one for the installer, right? We need to >pass the above parms to the installer at boot time. Selecting "Install" >and typing "E" we see the following: > >setparams 'Install' > set background_color=black > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet > initrd /install.amd/initrd.gz > >So, do Felix's parms get appended to the end of the linux line or >where? On the "linux" line, yes. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast." Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
Hi, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: > Only thing my poor brain can come up with is integrity of the > downloaded ISO file. That would be quite a peculiar transport damage. On the other hand, malicious alteration would probably avoid such obvious deviations from usual behavior. Greg Wooledge wrote: > The installer can be booted in either Legacy or UEFI mode. Perhaps > the menus work differently between those two? This is more plausible. After all the i386 and amd64 ISOs have two different bootloaders with own menu configuration files each. (ISOLINUX on Legacy BIOS, GRUB2 on EFI in non-Legacy mode.) But i guess that the ISOs got tested with both firmwares at least when Debian 9 was new. So progress will probably only be made if some fearless person tries to replay the situation. (Fearless, because software can smell if you are out of courage or patience.) https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/05/msg00137.html says: "Thinkpad x40", "wifi", "Intel ipw2200 hardware" Implicitely i read "amd64" as architecture of the netinst ISO. -- More for the archive than for this thread: > https://www.debian.org/CD/verify This should be accompanied by https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#verify and some glue text. I recently wrote an example at https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Verify_the_Debian_Live_download > https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-verify-an-authenticity-of-downloaded-debian-i so-images This should put more emphasis on comparing the "Primary key fingerprint" with those listed on https://www.debian.org/CD/verify A while ago i read about successful spoofing by keys which claimed to be from trusted programmers. Cryptography was not involved. Only human credulity. > https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/138603/how-to-verify-debian-iso-integrity This is better in the aspect of fingerprints. (I think the "web of trust" proposal is not possible with the Debian CD keys. But i can be wrong easily.) Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon, 7 May 2018, Brian wrote: On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:17:07 +0100, jpff wrote: Things are getting better if not quite right. I have a lean x/fvwm system installed and I have managed to get an xterm displayed. The major issues I have left outstanding are If you have fvwm on the system it was installed after first boot. To state the obvious, either WiFi or ethernet was used. Which one was it? I did a complete reinstall using wired network, but ensured no desktp of any kind. Then added the most obvious things like fvwm, exim, emacs and some others > 1: The X40 has a three-mbutton trackpoint but while button 1 works, button 2 has no affect and button 3 does what button 2 should do. Not seen that before and not sure where to look. > Dunno. It is not critical. Put it on the back burner. Just makes it hard to se. The middle button works in xterm but not in fvwm. Maybe not critical but a problem for my fingers who have been doing this for so long > 2: Still no wifi. iwconfig allows me to set key and essid etc but ifup says it has not heard about wlp2s2 which is the name "ip link" gives. Sometimes the wifi is active judging from the flashing of the lights but no connection. I am used to using ifconfig/iwconfig on other machines. You have installed wireless-tools (the installer doesn't). You could also install net-tools if you feel more comfortable with it. Please post the contents of /etc/network/interfaces and the output of 'ip a'. I have net-tools, not sure about wireless-tools. Will check when I can get back to a wired location. On the 64bit laptop at present ssh'ed into the Debian firewall. 3: My wifi is WPA-PSK (I think version 2). Is teresoe package I eed for this? Just realised that I have never used wifi on debian boxes Apart from wpasupplicant, no. I see evidence of some wps- files but not akl I expect from other systems And again thank you all for your advice and comments. It is getting better. Answering a question or two might see a dramatic increase in betterness. AFIK I have answered all questions; apologies if I am being unclear. -- Brian. ==John ff
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 07:58:54AM -0400, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: > On 5/8/18, Curt wrote: > > I downloaded 'debian-9.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso' and booted it in kvm and > > *it does work* as advertised here, so I don't know what accounts for > > your difficulty, Dan. > Ok, that's really weird, then. What factor could possibly cause that > kind of difference at that very early point in the use of Debian? The installer can be booted in either Legacy or UEFI mode. Perhaps the menus work differently between those two? I haven't had to do a Legacy install in quite some time.
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On 5/8/18, Curt wrote: > On 2018-05-07, Dan Norton wrote: >>> >> >> Unfortunately, that does not work. The Boot Screen does not look like >> "Figure 4.1. Boot screen" and more to the point, tab has no effect. One >> can move selection up or down, enter to select, E to edit, or C for >> a GRUB command line. Boot a Debian 9.4 netinst iso and you'll see >> what I mean. >> > > All right. > > I downloaded 'debian-9.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso' and booted it in kvm and > *it does work* as advertised here, so I don't know what accounts for > your difficulty, Dan. > > I see, once the installer boots, the following: > > Debian GNU/linux installer boot menu > > Graphical install > Install > Advanced options > Help > Install with speech synthesis > > When I tab on either "Graphical install" or "Install", I get an editable > kernel command line. If I hit "escape" I get the boot prompt: > > boot: Ok, that's really weird, then. What factor could possibly cause that kind of difference at that very early point in the use of Debian? Only thing my poor brain can come up with is integrity of the downloaded ISO file. That would include wondering what mirror provided the download and was the [checksum] step run to make sure the file is original and not tampered with.. This link was just shared here in last few days: https://www.debian.org/CD/verify This one is because it pulled up in my search just now (and might provide something useful for new users): https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-verify-an-authenticity-of-downloaded-debian-iso-images That came via StackExchange: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/138603/how-to-verify-debian-iso-integrity Cindy :) -- Cindy-Sue Causey Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with duct tape *
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On 2018-05-07, Dan Norton wrote: >> > > Unfortunately, that does not work. The Boot Screen does not look like > "Figure 4.1. Boot screen" and more to the point, tab has no effect. One > can move selection up or down, enter to select, E to edit, or C for > a GRUB command line. Boot a Debian 9.4 netinst iso and you'll see > what I mean. > All right. I downloaded 'debian-9.4.0-amd64-netinst.iso' and booted it in kvm and *it does work* as advertised here, so I don't know what accounts for your difficulty, Dan. I see, once the installer boots, the following: Debian GNU/linux installer boot menu Graphical install Install Advanced options Help Install with speech synthesis When I tab on either "Graphical install" or "Install", I get an editable kernel command line. If I hit "escape" I get the boot prompt: boot: --
Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:37:16 -0400, Dan Norton wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2018 23:22:46 +0100 > Brian wrote: > > > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 > > > Felix Miata wrote: > > > > > > > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100): > > > > > > > > > Felix Miata wrote: > > > > > > > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > > > > > > > >> tasks=standard > > > > >> base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > > > > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed > > > > >> that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once > > > > >> booted normally. > > > > > > > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem > > > > > about no X, xdm, xterm etc. > > > > > > > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have > > > > > not seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net > > > > > install. More please! > > > > > > > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. > > > > I rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all > > > > my installs are in multiboot environments. This enables > > > > installation booting by using a bootloader already present on the > > > > system, by loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete > > > > with the parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as > > > > network configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent. > > > > > > > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence > > > > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending > > > > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC > > > > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely > > > > will suggest how when its screen first paints. > > > > > > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing > > > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change: > > > > > > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet > > > > > > ...to this, all on one line: > > > > > > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard > > > base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > > > Is that going to result in a minimum installation? > > > > Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness. > > > > This is getting exciting. Will I still get a command line? If you mean at first boot; yes. I preseed in a file with "tasksel tasksel/first multiselect", which means no task is selected for installation. I've never done it from a prompt. Perhaps "tasks="? -- Brian.
Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
On Mon, 7 May 2018 23:22:46 +0100 Brian wrote: > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 > > Felix Miata wrote: > > > > > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100): > > > > > > > Felix Miata wrote: > > > > > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > > > > > >>tasks=standard > > > >> base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed > > > >> that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once > > > >> booted normally. > > > > > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem > > > > about no X, xdm, xterm etc. > > > > > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have > > > > not seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net > > > > install. More please! > > > > > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. > > > I rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all > > > my installs are in multiboot environments. This enables > > > installation booting by using a bootloader already present on the > > > system, by loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete > > > with the parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as > > > network configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent. > > > > > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence > > > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending > > > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC > > > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely > > > will suggest how when its screen first paints. > > > > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing > > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change: > > > > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet > > > > ...to this, all on one line: > > > > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard > > base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > Is that going to result in a minimum installation? > > Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness. > This is getting exciting. Will I still get a command line? > (base-installer/install-recommends=false doesn't do anything. The base > system is always installed without Recommends:). >
Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 > Felix Miata wrote: > > > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100): > > > > > Felix Miata wrote: > > > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > > > >> tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that > > >> way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted > > >> normally. > > > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about > > > no X, xdm, xterm etc. > > > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not > > > seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More > > > please! > > > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. I > > rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all my > > installs are in multiboot environments. This enables installation > > booting by using a bootloader already present on the system, by > > loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete with the > > parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as network > > configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent. > > > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence > > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending > > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC > > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely will > > suggest how when its screen first paints. > > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change: > > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet > > ...to this, all on one line: > > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard > base-installer/install-recommends=false > > Is that going to result in a minimum installation? Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness. (base-installer/install-recommends=false doesn't do anything. The base system is always installed without Recommends:). -- Brian.
Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100): > > > Felix Miata wrote: > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > >>tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that > >> way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted > >> normally. > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about > > no X, xdm, xterm etc. > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not > > seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More > > please! > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. I > rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all my > installs are in multiboot environments. This enables installation > booting by using a bootloader already present on the system, by > loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete with the > parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as network > configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent. > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely will > suggest how when its screen first paints. That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change: linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet ...to this, all on one line: linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false Is that going to result in a minimum installation? - Dan
Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
Dan Norton composed on 2018-05-07 17:47 (UTC-0400): > Felix wrote: > "My Debian installations are all net installs that include > tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > on the kernel cmdline." > What's the kernel here? The one for the installer, right? We need to > pass the above parms to the installer at boot time. Selecting "Install" > and typing "E" we see the following: > setparams 'Install' > set background_color=black > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet > initrd /install.amd/initrd.gz > So, do Felix's parms get appended to the end of the linux line or > where? "linux" is kernel. Get rid of quiet and put them there. You might like vga=791 or 794 better if you don't have Intel, NVidia or ATI/AMD gfx. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
Dan Norton composed on 2018-05-07 17:47 (UTC-0400): > Felix wrote: > "My Debian installations are all net installs that include > tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > on the kernel cmdline." > What's the kernel here? The one for the installer, right? We need to > pass the above parms to the installer at boot time. Selecting "Install" > and typing "E" we see the following: > setparams 'Install' > set background_color=black > linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet > initrd /install.amd/initrd.gz > So, do Felix's parms get appended to the end of the linux line or > where? "linux" is kernel. Get rid of quiet and put them there. You might like vga=791 or 794 better if you don't have Intel, NVidia or ATI/AMD gfx. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon, 7 May 2018 15:30:54 + (UTC) Curt wrote: > On 2018-05-07, Curt wrote: > > On 2018-05-07, Dan Norton wrote: > >>> > >>> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that > >>> way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted > >>> normally. > >> > >> How do you get that on the kernel cmdline? My guess is that when > >> the net-install medium boots, showing the menu which grub > >> displays, you edit and append "tasks=..." to the line that starts > >> "linux" right? > > > > Inside the installer (I booted with kvm this outdated? one I had > > hanging around--'firmware-stretch-DI-rc3-amd64-netinst.iso') if you > > press tab rather than enter on "Graphical Install" or "Install", > > you get the kernel command line (to which you can append your extra > > parameter(s)). > > > > If you press escape, you get a prompt that looks like this: > > > > boot: > > > > I should have just referred you to the Debian Handbook here: > > https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.installation-steps.html > > Each menu entry hides a specific boot command line, which can be > configured as needed by pressing the TAB key before validating the > entry and booting. The “Help” menu entry displays the old command > line interface, where the F1 to F10 keys display different help > screens detailing the various options available at the prompt. You > will rarely need to use this option except in very specific cases. > Unfortunately, that does not work. The Boot Screen does not look like "Figure 4.1. Boot screen" and more to the point, tab has no effect. One can move selection up or down, enter to select, E to edit, or C for a GRUB command line. Boot a Debian 9.4 netinst iso and you'll see what I mean. Felix wrote: "My Debian installations are all net installs that include tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false on the kernel cmdline." What's the kernel here? The one for the installer, right? We need to pass the above parms to the installer at boot time. Selecting "Install" and typing "E" we see the following: setparams 'Install' set background_color=black linux /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet initrd /install.amd/initrd.gz So, do Felix's parms get appended to the end of the linux line or where? - Dan
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On 05/07/2018 02:16 PM, Brian wrote: Answering a question or two might see a dramatic increase in betterness. I'm stealing that one! Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:17:07 +0100, jpff wrote: > Things are getting better if not quite right. I have a lean x/fvwm system > installed and I have managed to get an xterm displayed. The major issues I > have left outstanding are If you have fvwm on the system it was installed after first boot. To state the obvious, either WiFi or ethernet was used. Which one was it? > 1: The X40 has a three-mbutton trackpoint but while button 1 works, button > 2 has no affect and button 3 does what button 2 should do. Not seen that > before and not sure where to look. Dunno. It is not critical. Put it on the back burner. > 2: Still no wifi. iwconfig allows me to set key and essid etc but ifup > says it has not heard about wlp2s2 which is the name "ip link" gives. > Sometimes the wifi is active judging from the flashing of the lights but no > connection. I am used to using ifconfig/iwconfig on other machines. You have installed wireless-tools (the installer doesn't). You could also install net-tools if you feel more comfortable with it. Please post the contents of /etc/network/interfaces and the output of 'ip a'. > 3: My wifi is WPA-PSK (I think version 2). Is teresoe package I eed for > this? Just realised that I have never used wifi on debian boxes Apart from wpasupplicant, no. > And again thank you all for your advice and comments. It is getting better. Answering a question or two might see a dramatic increase in betterness. -- Brian.
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
Things are getting better if not quite right. I have a lean x/fvwm system installed and I have managed to get an xterm displayed. The major issues I have left outstanding are 1: The X40 has a three-mbutton trackpoint but while button 1 works, button 2 has no affect and button 3 does what button 2 should do. Not seen that before and not sure where to look. 2: Still no wifi. iwconfig allows me to set key and essid etc but ifup says it has not heard about wlp2s2 which is the name "ip link" gives. Sometimes the wifi is active judging from the flashing of the lights but no connection. I am used to using ifconfig/iwconfig on other machines. 3: My wifi is WPA-PSK (I think version 2). Is teresoe package I eed for this? Just realised that I have never used wifi on debian boxes And again thank you all for your advice and comments. It is getting better. ==John ff
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon 07 May 2018 at 15:46:12 +0100, jpff wrote: > > > > > > And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files. I will > > > try that later today with luck > > > > > > > > well, modified rapture1 > > i booted from the usb stick with the firmware .iso and tried an install. I > accepted the licence for the firmware and proceeded to configure the wifi. > > It asked for the ESSID offering me the correct one, and I said it was PSK. > It then asked for the passphrase which I provided, and then into a loop > which network? > which essid? > what passphrase? No idea on why this failed. I'd advise using a cabled connection when a user has the choice. > until I got bored. So it still does not configure the wifi > > So for want f a better idea I plugged in the wired network and just did a > reboot. Working from the tty on alt-f1 I tried to look at the network -- Ah, you did. Good. There should be no need to reboot (but it does no harm); just go back and do the network detection and configuring again. Stop when it is done and from a tty check with 'ip a' that the link is up and active. 'ping www.debian.org' should confirm. > not sure what I did but I eventually noticed the wifi was working with the > same ip address as the wired. Pulled the plug on ethernet and carried on No idea here either. You continued with a wireless connection. Depending on what you did later, you could be doomed not to have any connectivity at first boot. > trying to get a more reasonable software base. Actually got xorg/xdm/fvwm > all "working" with missing stuff on the menus, in particular xterm. So > tried to install it, and then I rebooted --- no wifi now an no idea how to > fix. This I do not understand. You got xorg/xdm/fvwm/xterm via the installer? How? > Would ubuntu give me a stable base i wonder. I do not seem to be getting > anywhere yet. Ubuntu uses more or less the same installer as Debian. -- Brian. > ==John ff >
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On 2018-05-07, Curt wrote: > On 2018-05-07, Dan Norton wrote: >>> >>> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. >>> Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. >>> >> >> How do you get that on the kernel cmdline? My guess is that when the >> net-install medium boots, showing the menu which grub displays, you >> edit and append "tasks=..." to the line that starts "linux" right? > > Inside the installer (I booted with kvm this outdated? one I had hanging > around--'firmware-stretch-DI-rc3-amd64-netinst.iso') if you press tab > rather than enter on "Graphical Install" or "Install", you get the > kernel command line (to which you can append your extra parameter(s)). > > If you press escape, you get a prompt that looks like this: > > boot: > I should have just referred you to the Debian Handbook here: https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.installation-steps.html Each menu entry hides a specific boot command line, which can be configured as needed by pressing the TAB key before validating the entry and booting. The “Help” menu entry displays the old command line interface, where the F1 to F10 keys display different help screens detailing the various options available at the prompt. You will rarely need to use this option except in very specific cases. --
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On 2018-05-07, Dan Norton wrote: >> >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. >> Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. >> > > How do you get that on the kernel cmdline? My guess is that when the > net-install medium boots, showing the menu which grub displays, you > edit and append "tasks=..." to the line that starts "linux" right? Inside the installer (I booted with kvm this outdated? one I had hanging around--'firmware-stretch-DI-rc3-amd64-netinst.iso') if you press tab rather than enter on "Graphical Install" or "Install", you get the kernel command line (to which you can append your extra parameter(s)). If you press escape, you get a prompt that looks like this: boot: > - Dan > > --
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon, 7 May 2018, jpff wrote: > > > > > > And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files. I will > > > try that later today with luck > > > > > > > > well, modified rapture1 > > i booted from the usb stick with the firmware .iso and tried an install. I > accepted the licence for the firmware and proceeded to configure the wifi. > > It asked for the ESSID offering me the correct one, and I said it was PSK. It > then asked for the passphrase which I provided, and then into a loop which > network? > which essid? > what passphrase? > > until I got bored. So it still does not configure the wifi > > So for want f a better idea I plugged in the wired network and just did a > reboot. Working from the tty on alt-f1 I tried to look at the network -- not > sure what I did but I eventually noticed the wifi was working with the same ip > address as the wired. Pulled the plug on ethernet and carried on trying to > get a more reasonable software base. Actually got xorg/xdm/fvwm all "working" > with missing stuff on the menus, in particular xterm. So tried to install it, > and then I rebooted --- no wifi now an no idea how to fix. > > Would ubuntu give me a stable base i wonder. I do not seem to be getting > anywhere yet. > > ==John ff > > I think you should shop around different distros/installers if you want one that does all the configuration for you.
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon, May 07, 2018 at 01:09:33PM +0100, Brian wrote: > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 12:34:07 +0100, jpff wrote: > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X, > > xdm, xterm etc. > > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not seen any > > mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More please! > > We could really do with someone writing an Installation Guide and making > it available on Debian's home page for things like this. :) > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/apbs02.html.en#preseed-bootparms The installation manual is linked directly from https://www.debian.org and the link to Appendix B, "Automating the installation using presseing" is available from the TOC. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files. I will try that later today with luck well, modified rapture1 i booted from the usb stick with the firmware .iso and tried an install. I accepted the licence for the firmware and proceeded to configure the wifi. It asked for the ESSID offering me the correct one, and I said it was PSK. It then asked for the passphrase which I provided, and then into a loop which network? which essid? what passphrase? until I got bored. So it still does not configure the wifi So for want f a better idea I plugged in the wired network and just did a reboot. Working from the tty on alt-f1 I tried to look at the network -- not sure what I did but I eventually noticed the wifi was working with the same ip address as the wired. Pulled the plug on ethernet and carried on trying to get a more reasonable software base. Actually got xorg/xdm/fvwm all "working" with missing stuff on the menus, in particular xterm. So tried to install it, and then I rebooted --- no wifi now an no idea how to fix. Would ubuntu give me a stable base i wonder. I do not seem to be getting anywhere yet. ==John ff
Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)
jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100): > Felix Miata wrote: >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include >> tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. Xorg >> and >> whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X, > xdm, xterm etc. > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not seen > any mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More please! I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. I rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all my installs are in multiboot environments. This enables installation booting by using a bootloader already present on the system, by loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete with the parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as network configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent. IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence first appears on screen allows for some method of appending parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely will suggest how when its screen first paints. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On 05/07/2018 08:07 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote: [snip]> It sounds like you un-checked the specific desktop environments (KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc.) but left "Debian desktop environment" selected. I honestly have no idea what happens in that case. I always un-check that one. The only Tasks I select during the install are Standard, and SSH server. It upchucks Gnome3 on the innocent user. I'm very happy with MATE.
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
wool...@eeg.ccf.org wrote: > >It sounds like you un-checked the specific desktop environments (KDE, >GNOME, XFCE, etc.) but left "Debian desktop environment" selected. >I honestly have no idea what happens in that case. I always un-check >that one. The only Tasks I select during the install are Standard, and >SSH server. The desktop task setup in tasksel is defined by the Recommends: defined by the task-desktop task package (aka "Debian desktop environment"). tack:~$ apt-cache show task-desktop | grep Recommends Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop | task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop | task-mate-desktop | task-lxqt-desktop, xdg-utils, avahi-daemon, libnss-mdns, anacron, eject, iw, alsa-utils So, if you leave the "Debian desktop environment" enabled in tasksel, then *any* of the (gnome,xfce,kde,lxde,cinnamon,mate) desktop task packages will satisfy its recommendation. If you select it alongside any of those desktop task packages it will therefore have very little effect. However, if you select it alone *with no specific desktop chosen* then it will default to the first in that list: gnome. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast." Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:51:09PM +0100, John wrote: > After rather a long time it said it was installed so I rebooted -- a > big mistake! I was hoping for a computer where I could write > programs, mainly with xterm, emacs (with elisp) and C. I had asked > for no gnome no kde no xfce... I usually run fvwm on X but I got a > screen with nothing obvious to do. I did get icons (spit!) offering > games and firefox but no xterm -- I was expecting to install emacs > myself as I use a very recent system -- but it was in effect not a > computer but some kind of toy. I do not play computer games and > thought I had said not to install any It looks like other people have already covered the non-free firmware issues. So I'll just focus on this part. I forget the exact wording, but at the end of the installation, there is a tasksel dialog, in which you are presented with a list of "Tasks" that can be installed (Web server, SSH server, Debian desktop environment, and so on). It sounds like you un-checked the specific desktop environments (KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc.) but left "Debian desktop environment" selected. I honestly have no idea what happens in that case. I always un-check that one. The only Tasks I select during the install are Standard, and SSH server. In that configuration, when you reboot, you get a text console login prompt. At that point, you can login and install the specific packages you want. In your case, I would start with: build-essential xorg fvwm xterm That should get you quite close to what you described, minus the emacs part, which I don't use and don't know how to install. I'm hoping you will know that part. This list does not include a Display Manager, so you'll still login on the console and need to type "startx" to get into X. This is how I use Debian, and also how many other people use Debian. If you want a graphical login, you can install a Display Manager package (possibly lightdm or xdm). But I'd wait until "startx" is known to work, just in case you have issues with video drivers/firmware. Having a DM installed and trying to start X at boot time and FAILING is a situtation you don't want to be in. It's a whole lot easier to work on the problem if you know you can boot to a console and login to fix things.
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
When I use something like Debian 9 netinst, without a network, I use the Command Line, through Text Console 1-6, accessible via Alt-F1 through Alt-F6. This is what I have been using (when needed) since I first encountered Linux, in the early 1990's. This is the original way of conversing with Linux, and makes an awesome Emergency access, in case the Graphical Interface crashes. Good luck! Kenneth Parker On Mon, May 7, 2018, 7:34 AM jpff wrote: > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X, > xdm, xterm etc. > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not seen > any mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More please! > > And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files. I will > try that later today with luck > > > On Sun, 6 May 2018, Felix Miata wrote: > > > John composed on 2018-05-06 21:51 (UTC+0100): > > > >> How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that > >> is not what I need. And I need wifi. > > > > My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > > > tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. > Xorg and > > whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. > > > > I don't use WiFi. > > -- > > "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you > > get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) > > > > Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! > > > > Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ > > > >
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Mon 07 May 2018 at 12:34:07 +0100, jpff wrote: > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X, > xdm, xterm etc. > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not seen any > mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More please! We could really do with someone writing an Installation Guide and making it available on Debian's home page for things like this. :) > And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files. I will > try that later today with luck > > > On Sun, 6 May 2018, Felix Miata wrote: > > > John composed on 2018-05-06 21:51 (UTC+0100): > > > > > How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that > > > is not what I need. And I need wifi. > > > > My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > > > tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > > > > on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. Xorg > > and > > whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. > > > > I don't use WiFi. > > -- > > "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you > > get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) > > > > Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! > > > > Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ > > >
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X, xdm, xterm etc. My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this. I have not seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net install. More please! And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files. I will try that later today with luck On Sun, 6 May 2018, Felix Miata wrote: John composed on 2018-05-06 21:51 (UTC+0100): How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that is not what I need. And I need wifi. My Debian installations are all net installs that include tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. I don't use WiFi. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Sun, 6 May 2018 18:09:12 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: > John composed on 2018-05-06 21:51 (UTC+0100): > > > How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but > > that is not what I need. And I need wifi. > > My Debian installations are all net installs that include > > tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false > > on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. > Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. > How do you get that on the kernel cmdline? My guess is that when the net-install medium boots, showing the menu which grub displays, you edit and append "tasks=..." to the line that starts "linux" right? - Dan
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
Hi John, Take a look at the relevant section of the installation manual at: https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en and then download the unofficial non-free installer iso at: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ You can put the iso on a USB and install from there directly. It already contains the missing firmware so you don’t need to mess with separate USBs and tarballs, etc. Rick On May 6, 2018, at 1:51 PM, John wrote: > I have been a user of debian for many years on a number of computers > as well as other GNU/Linux systems. Recently I discovered that my > i686 32bit machine was out of support and they were not supporting > 32bit machines any longer. After some bad experiences with Tumbleweed I > decided that I would install stretch so I could get experience of it > when I am forced to upgrade my firewall (running jessie with a whezzy > kernel). > > So today I d/loaded the net-install iso for debian 9.4 and wrote it to > a usb stick. Then tried to install on the target (Thinkpad x40). > Nice idea but it refused to use the wifi, so I proceeded via wired > ethernet hoping I could resolve the issue later. In the process I > think I determined the wifi problem was the need for firmware for the > Intel ipw2200 hardware. > > After rather a long time it said it was installed so I rebooted -- a > big mistake! I was hoping for a computer where I could write > programs, mainly with xterm, emacs (with elisp) and C. I had asked > for no gnome no kde no xfce... I usually run fvwm on X but I got a > screen with nothing obvious to do. I did get icons (spit!) offering > games and firefox but no xterm -- I was expecting to install emacs > myself as I use a very recent system -- but it was in effect not a > computer but some kind of toy. I do not play computer games and > thought I had said not to install any > > Since then I have failed to get wifi although I have got the firmware > -- but no instructions on how to install. Got aptitude installed and > discovered load of gnome stuff cluttering up the disk (which is > limited) and memory (ditto). > > How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that > is not what I need. And I need wifi. > > I have never had this problem in 35 years on unix and linux, and am > very disappointed. I suppose I can install things like csh and > possibly xdm, exim from source etc but without an xterm. > > I also noticed eventually that the duff screen came from tty2 rather > that tty7 that I was expecting. > > Sorry for the rant but I really was expecting simplicity as before. > > ==John ffitch >
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
John composed on 2018-05-06 21:51 (UTC+0100): > How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that > is not what I need. And I need wifi. My Debian installations are all net installs that include tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally. I don't use WiFi. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: A long rant on Debian 9
On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 4:51 PM, John wrote: > I have been a user of debian for many years on a number of computers > as well as other GNU/Linux systems. Recently I discovered that my > i686 32bit machine was out of support and they were not supporting > 32bit machines any longer. After some bad experiences with Tumbleweed I > decided that I would install stretch so I could get experience of it > when I am forced to upgrade my firewall (running jessie with a whezzy > kernel). > > So today I d/loaded the net-install iso for debian 9.4 and wrote it to > a usb stick. Then tried to install on the target (Thinkpad x40). > Nice idea but it refused to use the wifi, so I proceeded via wired > ethernet hoping I could resolve the issue later. In the process I > think I determined the wifi problem was the need for firmware for the > Intel ipw2200 hardware. > > After rather a long time it said it was installed so I rebooted -- a > big mistake! I was hoping for a computer where I could write > programs, mainly with xterm, emacs (with elisp) and C. I had asked > for no gnome no kde no xfce... I usually run fvwm on X but I got a > screen with nothing obvious to do. I did get icons (spit!) offering > games and firefox but no xterm -- I was expecting to install emacs > myself as I use a very recent system -- but it was in effect not a > computer but some kind of toy. I do not play computer games and > thought I had said not to install any > > Since then I have failed to get wifi although I have got the firmware > -- but no instructions on how to install. Got aptitude installed and > discovered load of gnome stuff cluttering up the disk (which is > limited) and memory (ditto). > > How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that > is not what I need. And I need wifi. > > I have never had this problem in 35 years on unix and linux, and am > very disappointed. I suppose I can install things like csh and > possibly xdm, exim from source etc but without an xterm. > > I also noticed eventually that the duff screen came from tty2 rather > that tty7 that I was expecting. > > Sorry for the rant but I really was expecting simplicity as before. > > ==John ffitch > > Since you have proprietary driver I believe you need to use the non-free installer. Try: https://wiki.debian.org/WiFi since you already have the firmware. Also, since, forever, desktop environments tend to install a lot of stuff. HTH Forest
A long rant on Debian 9
I have been a user of debian for many years on a number of computers as well as other GNU/Linux systems. Recently I discovered that my i686 32bit machine was out of support and they were not supporting 32bit machines any longer. After some bad experiences with Tumbleweed I decided that I would install stretch so I could get experience of it when I am forced to upgrade my firewall (running jessie with a whezzy kernel). So today I d/loaded the net-install iso for debian 9.4 and wrote it to a usb stick. Then tried to install on the target (Thinkpad x40). Nice idea but it refused to use the wifi, so I proceeded via wired ethernet hoping I could resolve the issue later. In the process I think I determined the wifi problem was the need for firmware for the Intel ipw2200 hardware. After rather a long time it said it was installed so I rebooted -- a big mistake! I was hoping for a computer where I could write programs, mainly with xterm, emacs (with elisp) and C. I had asked for no gnome no kde no xfce... I usually run fvwm on X but I got a screen with nothing obvious to do. I did get icons (spit!) offering games and firefox but no xterm -- I was expecting to install emacs myself as I use a very recent system -- but it was in effect not a computer but some kind of toy. I do not play computer games and thought I had said not to install any Since then I have failed to get wifi although I have got the firmware -- but no instructions on how to install. Got aptitude installed and discovered load of gnome stuff cluttering up the disk (which is limited) and memory (ditto). How do I get a working computer? I can ssh in from elsewhere but that is not what I need. And I need wifi. I have never had this problem in 35 years on unix and linux, and am very disappointed. I suppose I can install things like csh and possibly xdm, exim from source etc but without an xterm. I also noticed eventually that the duff screen came from tty2 rather that tty7 that I was expecting. Sorry for the rant but I really was expecting simplicity as before. ==John ffitch
