Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Nigel Henry]

On Sunday 07 December 2008 17:28, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> On Monday 01 December 2008 12:39 pm, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> > On Mon,01.Dec.08, 05:19:05, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> > > Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the
> > > kernel source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in
> > > the position of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one
> > > where I can use VirtualBox.
> >
> > Huh? What have you been looking for? The source packages are named like
> > linux-source-2.6.18
> >
> > Regards,
> > Andrei
>
> (quick review...no sound with linux 2.6.18 kernel...downloaded musix kernel
> which has ALSA 1.0.16 and sound works...but I use VirtualBox and it needs
> to compile kernel modules to work...but there is no source for the musix
> kernel.
>
> I see that there is an upgrade to the debian kernel 2.6.24.  How do I find
> out what version of ALSA that kernel has?
>
> Assuming that it is the wrong version of ALSA, where can I find detailed
> instructions for downloading and compiling the newer ALSA
> kernel(?)/modules(?) so that I can use sound and VirtualBox at the same
> time?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark (the OP)

Hi Mark.

I thought I'd already replied to your ? Anyway, I've now managed to update the 
alsa driver on the 2.6.18 kernel, and have gotten sounds with that.

 Caveat. I know absolutely nothing about Virtualbox.

The linux-headers are available for the Musix 2.6.26 kernel. And if you still 
have the Musix repo uncommented in /etc/apt/sources.list, you should see them 
there.

Back to the Etch 2.6.18-6-686 kernel. You do need a few packages installed to 
upgrade the alsa driver, and perhaps all the ones listed below are not 
needed, but most are small.

binutils
build-essential
dpkg-dev
g++-4.0 (version may be different on Etch)
gcc-4.0  (same as above)
kernel-package
libc6-dev
libstdc++6-4.0-dev(version may differ on Etch)
linux-kernel-headers
make

You also need the linux-headers for your running kernel. In my case (with 
Etch), synaptic shows the following as below.
linux-headers-2.6.18-6
linux-headers-2.6.18-6-686

I also see that linux-kbuild-2.6.18 is installed, but that may have been 
automatically installed as a dep to other packages mentioned above.

Just to take a break. The alsa driver that comes with the 2.6.24 etchnhalf 
kernel is 1.0.15. I get no sounds with that, when using the etchnhalf kernel, 
but on another install on the same machine, specifically Kubuntu Dapper, I 
upgraded the alsa driver from 1.0.10 to 1.0.15, and the sounds work. I am 
still having problems updating the alsa driver with the etchnhalf kernel 
(2.6.24), with continual complaints from make. Incidentally, I also get the 
same "make" complaints, when trying to upgrade the alsa driver on a Kubuntu 
Hardy (8.04) install against a 2.6.24 kernel. 

Puzzling. I'm not saying you will have problems with sounds using the 
etchnhalf 2.6.24 kernel. It could be hardware specific in my case.

Having now finished our break, and installed all the packages above, let's 
resume the upgrade of the alsa driver.

First create a new folder in your /home/user directory. I name mine 
Alsa-drivers, as I have a bunch of different versions in it. Now download the 
latest version of the alsa driver (1.0.18a) using the link below.

http://alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page

Save the tarball to your newly created Alsa-drivers directory. Next, open a 
terminal, or Konsole, if using KDE. Now type the commands below as user.

cd Alsa-drivers
tar xjvf alsa-driver-1.0.18a.tar.bz2
cd alsa-driver-1.0.18a
./configure (which if you have installed the necessary packages, will run 
to completion)

make(having typed make, this also (hopefully) will run to completion, with 
no errors).

If make runs to completion with no errors, su to root, and type as below.

make install

Reboot, and run cat /proc/asound/version , which should now show the alsa 
driver version as 1.0.18a. More importantly, you may have had some login 
sounds, and if not, open alsamixer on the CLI (terminal/Konsole), and check 
for muted controls (M key to mute/unmute), or sliders like Master, PCM, 
Front, CD, that need pushing up.

To see if your card has been detected on bootup, type:
cat /proc/asound/cards

Sorry if the stuff above is a bit basic, but it may be usefull for newer folks 
visiting the archives.

Best wishes on getting your sound working.

Nigel.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Florian Kulzer]

On Sun, Dec 07, 2008 at 11:28:33 -0500, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> On Monday 01 December 2008 12:39 pm, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> > On Mon,01.Dec.08, 05:19:05, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> > > Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the
> > > kernel source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in
> > > the position of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one
> > > where I can use VirtualBox.
> >
> > Huh? What have you been looking for? The source packages are named like
> > linux-source-2.6.18
> >
> > Regards,
> > Andrei
> 
> (quick review...no sound with linux 2.6.18 kernel...downloaded musix kernel 
> which has ALSA 1.0.16 and sound works...but I use VirtualBox and it needs to 
> compile kernel modules to work...but there is no source for the musix kernel. 
>  

Whoever distributes the musix kernel is required to provide the sources,
otherwise they would be in violation of the GPL. Most probably they will
also provide headers for their compiled kernels, but the Debian user
list is not a good place to find someone who knows where the musix
sources and headers can be found. Also, I would expect that building the
vboxdrv module with module-assistant works better with a Debian kernel.

> I see that there is an upgrade to the debian kernel 2.6.24.  How do I find 
> out 
> what version of ALSA that kernel has?

This information might be given in the release notes of Etch+1/2 or in
the upstream information for kernel 2.6.24. If you cannot find anything
there then you can download the common linux-headers package for 2.6.24
and extract include/sound/version.h:

$ aptitude download '~n^linux-headers-2.6.24.*-common$'
$ ar p linux-headers-2.6.24-*-common* data.tar.gz | tar -zxO --wildcards 
"*include/sound/version.h"
/* include/version.h.  Generated by alsa/ksync script.  */
#define CONFIG_SND_VERSION "1.0.15"
#define CONFIG_SND_DATE " (Tue Nov 20 19:16:42 2007 UTC)"

Unfortunately, Etch+1/2 only has ALSA 1.0.15.

> Assuming that it is the wrong version of ALSA, where can I find detailed 
> instructions for downloading and compiling the newer ALSA 
> kernel(?)/modules(?) so that I can use sound and VirtualBox at the same time?

Linux images for kernel 2.6.26 (which has ALSA 1.0.16) are available in
etch-backports. The virtualbox-ose-* packages are also included in the
backports, so it should be possible to build the vboxdrv module for the
2.6.26-bpo kernel using module-assistant.

-- 
Regards,| http://users.icfo.es/Florian.Kulzer
  Florian   |


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Elimar Riesebieter]

* Mark Neidorff [081207 17:30 +0100] 
[...]
> Assuming that it is the wrong version of ALSA, where can I find
> detailed instructions for downloading and compiling the newer ALSA
> kernel(?)/modules(?) so that I can use sound and VirtualBox at the
> same time?

apt-get install alsa-source
read /usr/share/doc/alsa-source/README.Debian

Elimar


-- 
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  Ersatz des Zufalls durch den Irrtum.
-unknown-


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Mark Neidorff]

On Monday 01 December 2008 12:39 pm, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Mon,01.Dec.08, 05:19:05, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> > Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the
> > kernel source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in
> > the position of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one
> > where I can use VirtualBox.
>
> Huh? What have you been looking for? The source packages are named like
> linux-source-2.6.18
>
> Regards,
> Andrei

(quick review...no sound with linux 2.6.18 kernel...downloaded musix kernel 
which has ALSA 1.0.16 and sound works...but I use VirtualBox and it needs to 
compile kernel modules to work...but there is no source for the musix kernel.  

I see that there is an upgrade to the debian kernel 2.6.24.  How do I find out 
what version of ALSA that kernel has?

Assuming that it is the wrong version of ALSA, where can I find detailed 
instructions for downloading and compiling the newer ALSA 
kernel(?)/modules(?) so that I can use sound and VirtualBox at the same time?

Thanks,

Mark (the OP)


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 05:26:49PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> lee writes:
> > But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
> > otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
> > cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water pressure
> > without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it for voltage
> > without flow.
> 
>  You could use a potentiometer (not the kind you are used to:
>  ) or

A wheatstone bridge?

>  you could measure the force exerted on a capacitor plate.  Both these
>  methods are used in standards work.  Usually, though, you would just use a
>  voltmeter with an input impedence larger that the leakage-resistance of
   ^
   impedance

>  the wires connecting it to the source.

Sensitivity?

-- 
Chris.
==
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
   -- Stephen F Roberts


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Andrei Popescu]

On Mon,01.Dec.08, 19:19:49, Nigel Henry wrote:
 
> I'm not complaining, as I do have the Musix kernel installed, which has the 
> sounds working (alsa driver 1.0.16), but it is a bit bizarre that Dapper has 
> sound using the alsa driver 1.0.15, but etchnhalf, using the same alsa 
> driver, does not have sound.

How about comparing the configs?

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Nigel Henry]

On Monday 01 December 2008 18:39, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Mon,01.Dec.08, 05:19:05, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> > Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the
> > kernel source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in
> > the position of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one
> > where I can use VirtualBox.
>
> Huh? What have you been looking for? The source packages are named like
> linux-source-2.6.18
>
> Regards,
> Andrei

Not for the Musix kernel that I suggested he install to get the sounds working 
on Etch. The kernel headers are available for the Musix 2.6.26 realtime 
kernel, but no source.

Strangely the etchnhalf kernel which has alsa driver 1.0.15, produced no 
sounds, with a failure to create /dev/dsp message, although my Kubuntu Dapper 
install on the same machine, which at install was using alsa driver 1.0.10, 
which I then upgraded to alsa driver 1.0.15 from the alsa site, now does 
produce sounds. It doesn't make sense. Both alsa drivers are the same 
version, yet the one installed on Kubuntu Dapper has sounds working, but the 
on that comes with the etchnhalf kernel doesn't.

I'm not complaining, as I do have the Musix kernel installed, which has the 
sounds working (alsa driver 1.0.16), but it is a bit bizarre that Dapper has 
sound using the alsa driver 1.0.15, but etchnhalf, using the same alsa 
driver, does not have sound.

Nigel.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Andrei Popescu]

On Mon,01.Dec.08, 05:19:05, Mark Neidorff wrote:
 
> Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the kernel 
> source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in the position 
> of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one where I can use 
> VirtualBox.

Huh? What have you been looking for? The source packages are named like
linux-source-2.6.18

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Nigel Henry]

On Monday 01 December 2008 11:19, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> On Saturday 29 November 2008 07:20 pm, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 14:11, Nigel Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > > Hi Kelly.
> > >
> > > I did see the Etchnhalf 2.6.24 kernel when looking at synaptic. I only
> > > suggested the musix one, as I have it installed, and know it uses alsa
> > > driver 1.0.16. I'm on dialup, and didn't want to download the etchnhalf
> > > kernel, only to find that the alsa driver available on it was earlier
> > > than 1.0.16.
> > >
> > > Have you got the etchnhalf kernel 2.6.24 x86 installed, and could let
> > > me know which alsa driver version it is using? Otherwise I'll install
> > > it myself.
> >
> > I run Unstable, actually. But I see now that 2.6.24 uses alsa 1.0.15.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Kelly Clowers
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Using the MUSIX kernel solved the problem with the "sound card."  Sound now
> works--YIPEE!!!  Many thanks for all the good suggestions.
>
> Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the
> kernel source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in the
> position of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one where I
> can use VirtualBox.
>
> More suggestions?
>
> Mark

Hi Mark.

Nice that the sound is working now. I see that the linux headers are available 
for that kernel. Would they be sufficient for what you need to do?

Kelly suggested the etchnhalf kernel, which has alsa driver 1.0.15, but I 
couldn't get sounds with that one, although I used the AMD64 version of it, 
rather than the x86.

Bit odd, as I have Kubuntu Dapper on the same machine, and had upgraded the 
alsa driver to 1.0.15, and sounds work fine on that.

It may be worth trying the etchnhalf. The fact that it doesn't work for me, 
doesn't mean it wont for you, and at least you can get the source for that 
one.

Nigel.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration SOLVED (to a point)

[Mark Neidorff]

On Saturday 29 November 2008 07:20 pm, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 14:11, Nigel Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> > Hi Kelly.
> >
> > I did see the Etchnhalf 2.6.24 kernel when looking at synaptic. I only
> > suggested the musix one, as I have it installed, and know it uses alsa
> > driver 1.0.16. I'm on dialup, and didn't want to download the etchnhalf
> > kernel, only to find that the alsa driver available on it was earlier
> > than 1.0.16.
> >
> > Have you got the etchnhalf kernel 2.6.24 x86 installed, and could let me
> > know which alsa driver version it is using? Otherwise I'll install it
> > myself.
>
> I run Unstable, actually. But I see now that 2.6.24 uses alsa 1.0.15.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly Clowers

Hi everyone,

Using the MUSIX kernel solved the problem with the "sound card."  Sound now 
works--YIPEE!!!  Many thanks for all the good suggestions.

Now I need to compile some kernel modules for VirtualBox so I need the kernel 
source.  Of course, it is not listed in synaptic, so now I'm in the position 
of rebooting between configurations that use sound and one where I can use 
VirtualBox.

More suggestions?

Mark


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Kelly Clowers]

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 14:11, Nigel Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



> Hi Kelly.
>
> I did see the Etchnhalf 2.6.24 kernel when looking at synaptic. I only
> suggested the musix one, as I have it installed, and know it uses alsa driver
> 1.0.16. I'm on dialup, and didn't want to download the etchnhalf kernel, only
> to find that the alsa driver available on it was earlier than 1.0.16.
>
> Have you got the etchnhalf kernel 2.6.24 x86 installed, and could let me know
> which alsa driver version it is using? Otherwise I'll install it myself.

I run Unstable, actually. But I see now that 2.6.24 uses alsa 1.0.15.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 08:27:02AM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> lee wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 08:32:24PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
>>> Which is why is is important to correct misinformation on the list.
>>
>> You got all wrong: People will start thinking you're a twat when you
>> try to do that ...
>>
>>
>
> No, I'm not the one being called a twat.

Well, not yet ...

> That only happens when you argue from a position of ignorance.

That is just another incorrect information.


-- 
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http://adin.dyndns.org/adin/TheLastQ.htm


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Nigel Henry]

On Saturday 29 November 2008 21:20, Kelly Clowers wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 14:52, Nigel Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > On Thursday 27 November 2008 17:40, Nigel Henry wrote:
> >> On Thursday 27 November 2008 15:38, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> >> > Hi All,
> >> >
> >> > In case I have to say it, I'm very frustrated trying to get ALSA sound
> >> > working on my Debian ETCH (up to date) box.
> >> >
> >> > My motherboard has built-in sound.  Needless to say, I want to hear
> >> > sound. I also want to be able to record sound from the stereo
> >> > headphones jack of my radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.
> >> >
> >> > I've used
> >> > arecord -t wav -f CD junk.wav
> >> > to try to record.  No matter what the settings in the mixers...total
> >> > silence (as seen by audacity and as confirmed by using hexdump).
> >> >
> >> > I've searched.
> >> > I tried reloading the ALSA drivers.
> >> > I ran alsaconf.
>
> Alsaconf is generally not useful unless you have an ISA card
>
> >> > I downloaded and installed the kernel source and the ALSA drivers
> >> > source, but I was not able to compile the drivers (couldn't find
> >> > version.h). Yes, I adjusted for source location with:
> >> > ./config --with-kernel=/usr/src/linux-source-2.6.18
> >> > I've tried alsamixer and alsamixergui.
> >> >
> >> > Here is a bunch of info that I found about my system:
> >> >
> >> > alsamixergui:
> >> >
> >> > Chip Analog Devices  AD1986A
>
> This is the important bit. That chip uses the snd-hda-intel module.
> hda-intel has had a lot of improvements in recent version of ALSA,
> so a kernel/alsa upgrade is probably your best bet.
>
> >> > Is there anything else you need to know about my system to help me get
> >> > sound working?
> >> >
> >> > PLEASE HELP me get sound working.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Mark
>
> 
>
> >> Their are 2 options. Upgrade the alsa driver, which is currently
> >> 1.0.18a, or install a later kernel, which has a later alsa driver.
> >>
> >> I chose on this machine to install a later kernel, which has alsa driver
> >> 1.0.16, and my sound on Etch works ok with this.
> >>
> >> If you want go this way, add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list
> >>
> >> deb ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/deb/ ./
> >
> > Hi Mark.
> >
> > I see that the thread that you started with the subject of.
> > "ALSA sound recording frustration" has now moved into a discussion of
> > electrical theory, which is not helping you with your problem.
> >
> > Even though your subject line stated you had a recording problem, your
> > first 2 paragraphs indicated that you had no sound at all, which is why I
> > suggested the later kernel from the musix repo, in order to get the
> > sounds working with Etch, as that kernel uses a later version of the alsa
> > driver (1.0.16).
> >
> > Have you tried installing the kernel from the musix repo? If so, are the
> > sounds working now with your Etch install?
> >
> > Only trying to help you to get your sounds working.
>
> A better option than a Musix kernel might be Etch and a Half:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
>
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly Clowers

Hi Kelly.

I did see the Etchnhalf 2.6.24 kernel when looking at synaptic. I only 
suggested the musix one, as I have it installed, and know it uses alsa driver 
1.0.16. I'm on dialup, and didn't want to download the etchnhalf kernel, only 
to find that the alsa driver available on it was earlier than 1.0.16.

Have you got the etchnhalf kernel 2.6.24 x86 installed, and could let me know 
which alsa driver version it is using? Otherwise I'll install it myself.

All the best.

Nigel.



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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Kelly Clowers]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 14:52, Nigel Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thursday 27 November 2008 17:40, Nigel Henry wrote:
>> On Thursday 27 November 2008 15:38, Mark Neidorff wrote:
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > In case I have to say it, I'm very frustrated trying to get ALSA sound
>> > working on my Debian ETCH (up to date) box.
>> >
>> > My motherboard has built-in sound.  Needless to say, I want to hear
>> > sound. I also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones
>> > jack of my radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.
>> >
>> > I've used
>> > arecord -t wav -f CD junk.wav
>> > to try to record.  No matter what the settings in the mixers...total
>> > silence (as seen by audacity and as confirmed by using hexdump).
>> >
>> > I've searched.
>> > I tried reloading the ALSA drivers.
>> > I ran alsaconf.

Alsaconf is generally not useful unless you have an ISA card

>> > I downloaded and installed the kernel source and the ALSA drivers source,
>> > but I was not able to compile the drivers (couldn't find version.h).
>> > Yes, I adjusted for source location with:
>> > ./config --with-kernel=/usr/src/linux-source-2.6.18
>> > I've tried alsamixer and alsamixergui.
>> >
>> > Here is a bunch of info that I found about my system:
>> >
>> > alsamixergui:
>> >
>> > Chip Analog Devices  AD1986A

This is the important bit. That chip uses the snd-hda-intel module.
hda-intel has had a lot of improvements in recent version of ALSA,
so a kernel/alsa upgrade is probably your best bet.

>> > Is there anything else you need to know about my system to help me get
>> > sound working?
>> >
>> > PLEASE HELP me get sound working.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Mark
>>



>> Their are 2 options. Upgrade the alsa driver, which is currently 1.0.18a,
>> or install a later kernel, which has a later alsa driver.
>>
>> I chose on this machine to install a later kernel, which has alsa driver
>> 1.0.16, and my sound on Etch works ok with this.
>>
>> If you want go this way, add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list
>>
>> deb ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/deb/ ./
>>
>
> Hi Mark.
>
> I see that the thread that you started with the subject of.
> "ALSA sound recording frustration" has now moved into a discussion of
> electrical theory, which is not helping you with your problem.
>
> Even though your subject line stated you had a recording problem, your first 2
> paragraphs indicated that you had no sound at all, which is why I suggested
> the later kernel from the musix repo, in order to get the sounds working with
> Etch, as that kernel uses a later version of the alsa driver (1.0.16).
>
> Have you tried installing the kernel from the musix repo? If so, are the
> sounds working now with your Etch install?
>
> Only trying to help you to get your sounds working.

A better option than a Musix kernel might be Etch and a Half:

http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 08:32:24PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:

Which is why is is important to correct misinformation on the list.


You got all wrong: People will start thinking you're a twat when you
try to do that ...




No, I'm not the one being called a twat.  That only happens when you 
argue from a position of ignorance.



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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 08:32:24PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> Which is why is is important to correct misinformation on the list.

You got all wrong: People will start thinking you're a twat when you
try to do that ...


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:10:17PM -0900, Ken Irving wrote:

> >> BTW, I agree a bit with an earlier poster that you a being a bit of a 
> >> twat.  This mailing list isn't really appropriate for epistemological 
> >> discussions.
> >
> > Me, three.
> 
> One more.

Hm, it's interesting to see how unfriendly this list has become. I
wonder why that happened.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Napoleon]

Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:01:01AM -0600, lee wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 09:38:40AM -0500, Mark Neidorff wrote:

also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones jack of my 
radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.

The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for connecting
recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too high/much,
you can damage the soundcard.


Last time I looked my headphones had no independent power source of 
their own. The headphones output provides a certain current to the
headphones. 


Any other device connected there would also be feeding on that and would
not provide power. 


Not necessarily true.  Some devices are meant to use powered mics, and
will therefore have power on the connector.

Hence the voltage of the power it does not provide

cannot really damage your sound card that way.



Again, incorrect.

Additionally, to much of an impedance mismatch could in itself damage
the sound card.


You had some interesting observation regarding the definition of Volt.
If you have any comments on the definition in wikipedia, please note
them on the comments page of the relevant value.

This is an off-topic thread. Let's just drop it. On Debian the
definition of "Volt" is "The result from lmsensors, multiplied by factor
A plus factor B".



Which is why is is important to correct misinformation on the list.


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Ken Irving]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:36:58PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> On Friday 2008 November 28 15:28, lee wrote:
>>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:13:21PM -0500, Andrew Reid wrote:
 On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:
> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
   You mean, in principle?  Of course.
>>> It takes energy to defect particles or to change the shape of a
>>> crystal, doesn't it? You would be observing/measuring effects and
>>> *deduce* that there is a potential, but that is different from
>>> observing/measuring the potential itself, isn't it?
>>
>> Yes, it takes energy.  It doesn't take current.
>
> Actually, it does.  Energy (power) is voltage * current.  Without  
> current, you have no energy.

Wrong.

>> BTW, I agree a bit with an earlier poster that you a being a bit of a 
>> twat.  This mailing list isn't really appropriate for epistemological 
>> discussions.
>
> Me, three.

One more.

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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Andrew Reid]

On Friday 28 November 2008 16:28, lee wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:13:21PM -0500, Andrew Reid wrote:
> > On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:
> > > Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
> >
> >   You mean, in principle?  Of course.
> >
> >   Put your two wires of unknown potential difference at
> > opposite ends of an evacuated tube.  Arrange the geometry
> > so that the electric field between them is linear in space.
> > You can do this by hooking them up to big plates and putting
> > the plates close enough together, making basically a
> > vacuum capacitor.
> >
> >   Then, shoot charged particles into the space between
> > the electrodes.  
>
> It takes energy to defect particles or to change the shape of a
> crystal, doesn't it? You would be observing/measuring effects and
> *deduce* that there is a potential, but that is different from
> observing/measuring the potential itself, isn't it?

  It needn't -- if the deflection is purely elastic,
then the particle comes out with the same energy as when
it went in, and there's no energy transfer.  There is a 
momentum transfer, of course.

  Then again, "deducing that there is a potential" is 
a pretty good definition of measurement, I think.

-- A.
-- 
Andrew Reid / [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Friday 2008 November 28 17:36, Napoleon wrote:
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > On Friday 2008 November 28 15:28, lee wrote:
> >> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:13:21PM -0500, Andrew Reid wrote:
> >>> On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:
>  Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
> >>>
> >>>   You mean, in principle?  Of course.
> >>
> >> It takes energy to defect particles or to change the shape of a
> >> crystal, doesn't it? You would be observing/measuring effects and
> >> *deduce* that there is a potential, but that is different from
> >> observing/measuring the potential itself, isn't it?
> >
> > Yes, it takes energy.  It doesn't take current.
>
> Actually, it does.  Energy (power) is voltage * current.  Without
> current, you have no energy.

Electrical *power* is voltage * current.  There are at least 2 other forms of 
power, gravitational and strong nuclear.  There's also energy that can't do 
work (entropy) which isn't power (= work / time).

Both of the examples I snipped would have some current in them, though not in 
any common, expected, or most likely even practical form.
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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Napoleon]

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

On Friday 2008 November 28 15:28, lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:13:21PM -0500, Andrew Reid wrote:

On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:

Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?

  You mean, in principle?  Of course.

It takes energy to defect particles or to change the shape of a
crystal, doesn't it? You would be observing/measuring effects and
*deduce* that there is a potential, but that is different from
observing/measuring the potential itself, isn't it?


Yes, it takes energy.  It doesn't take current.



Actually, it does.  Energy (power) is voltage * current.  Without 
current, you have no energy.




BTW, I agree a bit with an earlier poster that you a being a bit of a twat.  
This mailing list isn't really appropriate for epistemological discussions.


Me, three.


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:48:59PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:

lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:43:28PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:

lee wrote:

Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?

Of course.  That's what voltage is.

Hm, true, voltage is impossible without current flowing because of how
voltage is defined. No current <--> no voltage, and voltage is
something that doesn't exist. I never thought of it like that before.


Incorrect.  Voltage is strictly an excess or shortage of electrons.  
Current flow is not necessary for voltage to exist.


You really do need to take some electric theory courses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:

"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."


Then the above definition is incorrect.




No, that is the definition of a VOLT, which is the measurement unit of 
VOLTAGE.


And you really do need to take some electrical theory courses.  I'm sure 
it hasn't changed much since my EE courses about 35 years ago.



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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:01:01AM -0600, lee wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 09:38:40AM -0500, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> 
> > also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones jack of my 
> > radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.
> 
> The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for connecting
> recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too high/much,
> you can damage the soundcard.

Last time I looked my headphones had no independent power source of 
their own. The headphones output provides a certain current to the
headphones. 

Any other device connected there would also be feeding on that and would
not provide power. Hence the voltage of the power it does not provide
cannot really damage your sound card that way.

You had some interesting observation regarding the definition of Volt.
If you have any comments on the definition in wikipedia, please note
them on the comments page of the relevant value.

This is an off-topic thread. Let's just drop it. On Debian the
definition of "Volt" is "The result from lmsensors, multiplied by factor
A plus factor B".

-- 
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http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||  best
ICQ# 16849754 || friend


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[John Hasler]

lee writes:
> But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
> otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
> cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water pressure
> without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it for voltage
> without flow.

 You could use a potentiometer (not the kind you are used to:
 ) or
 you could measure the force exerted on a capacitor plate.  Both these
 methods are used in standards work.  Usually, though, you would just use a
 voltmeter with an input impedence larger that the leakage-resistance of
 the wires connecting it to the source.
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:24:18PM -0600, Kent West wrote:
> I'm no EE, and I may be wrong about this, but I think you're confusing  
> "voltage" (difference in potential) with "volt" (a specific amount of  
> difference in potential).

You are right, I confused that, sorry.


-- 
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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Nigel Henry]

On Thursday 27 November 2008 17:40, Nigel Henry wrote:
> On Thursday 27 November 2008 15:38, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > In case I have to say it, I'm very frustrated trying to get ALSA sound
> > working on my Debian ETCH (up to date) box.
> >
> > My motherboard has built-in sound.  Needless to say, I want to hear
> > sound. I also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones
> > jack of my radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.
> >
> > I've used
> > arecord -t wav -f CD junk.wav
> > to try to record.  No matter what the settings in the mixers...total
> > silence (as seen by audacity and as confirmed by using hexdump).
> >
> > I've searched.
> > I tried reloading the ALSA drivers.
> > I ran alsaconf.
> > I downloaded and installed the kernel source and the ALSA drivers source,
> > but I was not able to compile the drivers (couldn't find version.h). 
> > Yes, I adjusted for source location with:
> > ./config --with-kernel=/usr/src/linux-source-2.6.18
> > I've tried alsamixer and alsamixergui.
> >
> > Here is a bunch of info that I found about my system:
> >
> > alsamixergui:
> >
> > Chip Analog Devices  AD1986A
> >
> > +--
> >
> > lspci | grep -i audio
> >
> > 00:10.1 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP51 High Definition Audio (rev
> > a2)
> >
> > +--
> >
> > uname -a
> >
> > Linux mail 2.6.18-6-k7 #1 SMP Mon Oct 13 16:52:47 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux
> >
> > +
> >
> > cat /dev/sndstat
> >
> > Sound Driver:3.8.1a-980706 (ALSA v1.0.12rc1 emulation code)
> > Kernel: Linux mail 2.6.18-6-k7 #1 SMP Mon Oct 13 16:52:47 UTC 2008 i686
> > Config options: 0
> >
> > Installed drivers:
> > Type 10: ALSA emulation
> >
> > Card config:
> > HDA NVidia at 0xfe024000 irq 177
> >
> > Audio devices:
> > 0: AD198x Analog (DUPLEX)
> >
> > Synth devices: NOT ENABLED IN CONFIG
> >
> > Midi devices: NOT ENABLED IN CONFIG
> >
> > Timers:
> > 7: system timer
> >
> > Mixers:
> > 0: Analog Devices AD1986A
> >
> > +
> >
> > ls -l /dev/dsp
> >
> > crw-rw 1 root audio 14, 3 2008-11-27 08:48 /dev/dsp
> >
> > +
> >
> > Is there anything else you need to know about my system to help me get
> > sound working?
> >
> > PLEASE HELP me get sound working.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mark
>
> Hi Mark.
>
> I've got Etch installed on a machine, with a mobo that uses MCP61, and the
> alsa driver version 1.0.12rc1, that comes with the 2.6.18 kernel, and I get
> no sounds using that alsa driver.
> cat /proc/asound/cards ,  shows no soundcards, unless I have my usb midi
> keyboard plugged in. Then it shows the keyboard as card0. You will probably
> find that when running lsmod it shows all snd modules installed, but the
> card is not being detected.
>
> Their are 2 options. Upgrade the alsa driver, which is currently 1.0.18a,
> or install a later kernel, which has a later alsa driver.
>
> I chose on this machine to install a later kernel, which has alsa driver
> 1.0.16, and my sound on Etch works ok with this.
>
> If you want go this way, add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list
>
> deb ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/deb/ ./
>
> Then run apt-get update, then open synaptic. The kernel you want is as
> below.
>
> linux-image-2.6.26.2-rt1-libre1
>
> I could never find a GPG key for the musix repo, but if you have problems
> installing the kernel with synaptic, you can set the option to ignore the
> missing GPG key. I know it's not a good idea to install unsigned packages,
> and will have to have another go at finding the key for the musix repo, if
> one exists.
>
> Presuming that you now have the 2.6.26 kernel installed now, reboot, and
> choose it on Grub's menu, and hopefully on login (I'm using KDE) you now
> have some login sounds, and more important, the sound works.
>
> Don't forget to comment out the line for the musix repo after installing
> the kernel, by putting a # at the start of the line in
> /etc/apt/sources.list, as you don't want possible updates for other
> packages you have installed on your Etch, being updated from the Musix
> repo. Problems can arise when you use repo pick and mix.
>
> If you still have no sound, post back.
>
> All the best.
>
> Nigel.

Hi Mark.

I see that the thread that you started w

Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[owens]

>
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)
>Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:16:47 -0200
>
>>lee escreveu:
>>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>> A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential
>differences 
>>>> between them.
>>>>
>>>> This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing
>through it.
>>>> 
>>>
>>> If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
>>> modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most
>of
>>> the current flows.
>>>
>>> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential
>>
>>Actually, they're two completely different ways of measuring two
>>different things. They just happen to be measureable with the same
>>equipment, but this equipment combines two functionalities into a
>single
>>physical device.
>>
>>-- 
>>Eduardo M Kalinowski
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
The voltmeter is usually placed in parallel with the two (plus and
minus if DC) connections.  the voltmeter has a large but known
internal resistance.  If it really is a meter (with a needle rather
than a digital readout)the deflection is actually a measure of the
(small) current through the (large) resistance.  The ammeter is
usually placed in series with the connection and, soas not to affect
the current flow, usually has a small internal resistance.  Again the
deflection of the "needle" is a measure of the current.
Larry
>>
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>>
>>
>>




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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Ken Irving]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:14:16PM -0600, lee wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:48:59PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> > lee wrote:
> >> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:43:28PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> >>> lee wrote:
>  Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
> >>> Of course.  That's what voltage is.
> >>
> >> Hm, true, voltage is impossible without current flowing because of how
> >> voltage is defined. No current <--> no voltage, and voltage is
> >> something that doesn't exist. I never thought of it like that before.
> >
> > Incorrect.  Voltage is strictly an excess or shortage of electrons.  
> > Current flow is not necessary for voltage to exist.
> >
> > You really do need to take some electric theory courses.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:
> 
> "The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
> when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."
> 
> Then the above definition is incorrect.

Is there something like a Godwin's Law for repeating the same argument
over and over in an email list?  Someone already noted that that statement
is defining what the unit of a volt is, not what voltage is.  A volt is
a widely accepted unit of voltage, it is not voltage.

Ken

I have a feeling of impending deja vu...

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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Kent West]

lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:48:59PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
  

lee wrote:


On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:43:28PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
  

lee wrote:


Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
  

Of course.  That's what voltage is.


Hm, true, voltage is impossible without current flowing because of how
voltage is defined. No current <--> no voltage, and voltage is
something that doesn't exist. I never thought of it like that before.


  
Incorrect.  Voltage is strictly an excess or shortage of electrons.  
Current flow is not necessary for voltage to exist.


You really do need to take some electric theory courses.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:

"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."


Then the above definition is incorrect.

  


I'm no EE, and I may be wrong about this, but I think you're confusing 
"voltage" (difference in potential) with "volt" (a specific amount of 
difference in potential).


--
Kent


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

On Friday 2008 November 28 15:28, lee wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:13:21PM -0500, Andrew Reid wrote:
> > On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:
> > > Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
> >
> >   You mean, in principle?  Of course.
>
> It takes energy to defect particles or to change the shape of a
> crystal, doesn't it? You would be observing/measuring effects and
> *deduce* that there is a potential, but that is different from
> observing/measuring the potential itself, isn't it?

Yes, it takes energy.  It doesn't take current.

Yes, you would be observing/measuring effects and deducing that there is a 
potential.  Which is for all intents and purposes observing the potential.  
It's similar to the way your retina observes/measures photons and then causes 
a chain of electro-chemical events to be observed/measured by your optic 
nerve and brain matter and your mind deduces that there is text on your 
monitor while your read this message.

No, it's not different in any meaningful way.

Observing that the top of my table doesn't fall to the floor *is* an 
observation that confirms the existence of "legs".  "Legs" are things that 
exert force on table tops to keep them away from the floor.

BTW, I agree a bit with an earlier poster that you a being a bit of a twat.  
This mailing list isn't really appropriate for epistemological discussions.
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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:48:59PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> lee wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:43:28PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
>>> lee wrote:
 Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
>>> Of course.  That's what voltage is.
>>
>> Hm, true, voltage is impossible without current flowing because of how
>> voltage is defined. No current <--> no voltage, and voltage is
>> something that doesn't exist. I never thought of it like that before.
>>
>>
>
> Incorrect.  Voltage is strictly an excess or shortage of electrons.  
> Current flow is not necessary for voltage to exist.
>
> You really do need to take some electric theory courses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:

"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."


Then the above definition is incorrect.


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Napoleon]

Ken Irving wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:10:32PM -0600, lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
between them.


This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.

If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
the current flows.


They're the same internally in that even in current mode the meter is
measuring a voltage (the voltage drop between the meter's terminals,
a known but very small-valued resistor), but they're quite different,
basically.
 


Actually, analog meters are just the opposite.  Both are measuring 
current (the magnetic field of a meter is caused by current flow, not 
voltage).  In voltmeter mode, it is measuring current through a known 
resistance.



Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?


Back to a water analogy, consider you're holding a bucket of water.
The height of the surface of the water above the floor represents its
potential for doing work, its energy.  


No flow is required to know that value, the height.  You can increase
or decrease it just by raising or lowering the bucket.  The height is
not affected by the depth of the water, the surface area of the water,
the volume of the water -- it's not even a property of the water, but
rather of its relationship to the floor.  If you're standing on stairs,
the water has a different height relative to each stair.

Etc.




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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:43:28PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:

lee wrote:

Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?

Of course.  That's what voltage is.


Hm, true, voltage is impossible without current flowing because of how
voltage is defined. No current <--> no voltage, and voltage is
something that doesn't exist. I never thought of it like that before.




Incorrect.  Voltage is strictly an excess or shortage of electrons. 
Current flow is not necessary for voltage to exist.


You really do need to take some electric theory courses.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 07:29:45PM +, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:45:39 -0600
> lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hm, I'm not sure what you mean by "electrical theory".
> 
> The study of electricity.

No, I didn't really study that.

> > > Voltage, or Potential Difference as it's also known, is always
> > > there.  
> > Still, how do you know that? :)
> 
> Oh, I see, you're being a twat.

If you think so ...


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:40:45PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> lee wrote:
>> It's likely that voltage and water pressure exist even when you don't
>> measure them, but without measuring them (or otherwise observing their
>> effects), you don't know that they do. Not oberserving something
>> doesn't mean that it still exists.
>>
>
> It also does not mean it does not exist.

Indeed --- it only means that you don't know weather it still exists
or not.

>>> The question is immaterial.  Whether you know or not is not related 
>>> to  the presence (or absence) of voltage.
>>
>> But measuring/observing is?
>>
>>
>
> Measuring/observing has nothing to do as to whether something exists in  
> the macro world - only in quantum physics (which we are not discussing  
> here).
>
> Right now I don't have a thermometer, so I can't measure the outside  
> temperature.  However, I am confident it exists!

Well, I was just outside, and there was a temperature. That doesn't
mean that it's still there, but I can see the thermometer from here :)


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:19:13PM -0900, Ken Irving wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:10:32PM -0600, lee wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> > 
> > > A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
> > > between them.
> > > 
> > > This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.
> > 
> > If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
> > modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
> > the current flows.
> 
> They're the same internally in that even in current mode the meter is
> measuring a voltage (the voltage drop between the meter's terminals,
> a known but very small-valued resistor), but they're quite different,
> basically.

They are still basically the same: What voltage or how much current is
flowing through the electro magnet that moves the handle is irrelevant
other than that it takes a given amount of energy to move the
handle. That amount of energy can (in theory) be made up from any
combination of voltage and current.

> > Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
> 
> Back to a water analogy, consider you're holding a bucket of water.
> The height of the surface of the water above the floor represents its
> potential for doing work, its energy.

Still you are not measuring a potential but the relative height of the
surface of the water. I. e., you measure/observe something of which
you think that it represents a potential, like in the example with
deflected particles and shape shifting crystals, but not the potential
itself.


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 04:13:21PM -0500, Andrew Reid wrote:
> On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:
> > Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
> 
>   You mean, in principle?  Of course.
> 
>   Put your two wires of unknown potential difference at 
> opposite ends of an evacuated tube.  Arrange the geometry
> so that the electric field between them is linear in space.
> You can do this by hooking them up to big plates and putting
> the plates close enough together, making basically a 
> vacuum capacitor.
> 
>   Then, shoot charged particles into the space between
> the electrodes.  From the way they deflect, and their
> charge-to-mass ratio, you can deduce the electric field 
> strength, and from that, the potential difference between 
> the electrodes giving rise to the field.
> 
>   Alternate method:  Place a piezoelectric crystal of
> known characteristics in the gap, and measure the 
> change in shape.  From this, you can deduce the degree
> of polarization, and thus the externally-applied field,
> and from that, again, the voltage difference between
> the electrodes.

It takes energy to defect particles or to change the shape of a
crystal, doesn't it? You would be observing/measuring effects and
*deduce* that there is a potential, but that is different from
observing/measuring the potential itself, isn't it?


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Ken Irving]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 01:10:32PM -0600, lee wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> 
> > A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
> > between them.
> > 
> > This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.
> 
> If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
> modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
> the current flows.

They're the same internally in that even in current mode the meter is
measuring a voltage (the voltage drop between the meter's terminals,
a known but very small-valued resistor), but they're quite different,
basically.
 
> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?

Back to a water analogy, consider you're holding a bucket of water.
The height of the surface of the water above the floor represents its
potential for doing work, its energy.  

No flow is required to know that value, the height.  You can increase
or decrease it just by raising or lowering the bucket.  The height is
not affected by the depth of the water, the surface area of the water,
the volume of the water -- it's not even a property of the water, but
rather of its relationship to the floor.  If you're standing on stairs,
the water has a different height relative to each stair.

Etc.

-- 
Ken Irving


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 02:43:28PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> lee wrote:
>> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?
>
> Of course.  That's what voltage is.

Hm, true, voltage is impossible without current flowing because of how
voltage is defined. No current <--> no voltage, and voltage is
something that doesn't exist. I never thought of it like that before.


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Andrew Reid]

On Friday 28 November 2008 14:10, lee wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> > A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences
> > between them.
> >
> > This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.
>
> If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
> modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
> the current flows.
>
> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?

  You mean, in principle?  Of course.

  Put your two wires of unknown potential difference at 
opposite ends of an evacuated tube.  Arrange the geometry
so that the electric field between them is linear in space.
You can do this by hooking them up to big plates and putting
the plates close enough together, making basically a 
vacuum capacitor.

  Then, shoot charged particles into the space between
the electrodes.  From the way they deflect, and their
charge-to-mass ratio, you can deduce the electric field 
strength, and from that, the potential difference between 
the electrodes giving rise to the field.

  Alternate method:  Place a piezoelectric crystal of
known characteristics in the gap, and measure the 
change in shape.  From this, you can deduce the degree
of polarization, and thus the externally-applied field,
and from that, again, the voltage difference between
the electrodes.

-- A.
-- 
Andrew Reid / [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
between them.


This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.


If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
the current flows.

Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?




Of course.  That's what voltage is.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:37:26PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:

lee wrote:

But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water
pressure without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it
for voltage without flow.


Actually, you can't do it for water without some water flowing,
either.


Ok, but once the measuring device shows the pressure, the water stops
flowing. Hm, ok, maybe you can design a voltmeter that shows the
voltage and stops the flow of current ...
  
The same is true for voltage.  You can't *measure* it without some  
current flowing.  But just because you aren't measuring it does not mean  
the voltage does not exist.  Just as the water pressure still exists,  
even when you are not measuring it.


It's likely that voltage and water pressure exist even when you don't
measure them, but without measuring them (or otherwise observing their
effects), you don't know that they do. Not oberserving something
doesn't mean that it still exists.



It also does not mean it does not exist.

The question is immaterial.  Whether you know or not is not related to  
the presence (or absence) of voltage.


But measuring/observing is?




Measuring/observing has nothing to do as to whether something exists in 
the macro world - only in quantum physics (which we are not discussing 
here).


Right now I don't have a thermometer, so I can't measure the outside 
temperature.  However, I am confident it exists!



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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Florian Kulzer]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 13:10:32 -0600, lee wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> 
> > A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
> > between them.
> > 
> > This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.
> 
> If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
> modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
> the current flows.
> 
> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?

Perform a series of measurements using voltmeters with increasing
resistance, up to the technically feasible limit. Record your
observations and check if is possible to extrapolate them to infinite
resistance. Define the ideal measurement as the limiting case for a
(hypothetical) voltmeter with infinite resistance.

-- 
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  Florian   |


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:45:39 -0600
lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello lee,

> Hm, I'm not sure what you mean by "electrical theory".

The study of electricity.

> > Voltage, or Potential Difference as it's also known, is always
> > there.  
> Still, how do you know that? :)

Oh, I see, you're being a twat.


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Re: OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

lee escreveu:
> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>
>   
>> A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
>> between them.
>>
>> This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.
>> 
>
> If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
> modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
> the current flows.
>
> Is it even possible to measure a mere potential

Actually, they're two completely different ways of measuring two
different things. They just happen to be measureable with the same
equipment, but this equipment combines two functionalities into a single
physical device.

-- 
Eduardo M Kalinowski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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OT: volt and current (ALSA sound recording frustration)

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:59:06PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

> A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
> between them.
> 
> This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.

If you have a multimeter that can measure voltage or current, both
modes are basically the same. The difference is only in where most of
the current flows.

Is it even possible to measure a mere potential?


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 12:43:41PM -0600, lee wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:37:26PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> > lee wrote:
> >>
> >> But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
> >> otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
> >> cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water
> >> pressure without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it
> >> for voltage without flow.
> >>
> >
> > Actually, you can't do it for water without some water flowing,
> > either.
> 
> Ok, but once the measuring device shows the pressure, the water stops
> flowing. Hm, ok, maybe you can design a voltmeter that shows the
> voltage and stops the flow of current ...

A voltmeter has two connectors and shows the potential differences 
between them.

This is unlike an Ampermeter that shows the current flowing through it.

-- 
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http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||  best
ICQ# 16849754 || friend


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 09:16:02AM +, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:11:47 -0600
> lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hello lee,
> 
> > > flowing.  And you still have voltage at your outlet, even though
> > > no current is flowing.  
> > How do you know?
> 
> Have you never studied electrical theory?

Hm, I'm not sure what you mean by "electrical theory".

> Voltage, or Potential Difference as it's also known, is always
> there.

Still, how do you know that? :)


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:37:26PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> lee wrote:
>>
>> But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
>> otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
>> cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water
>> pressure without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it
>> for voltage without flow.
>>
>
> Actually, you can't do it for water without some water flowing,
> either.

Ok, but once the measuring device shows the pressure, the water stops
flowing. Hm, ok, maybe you can design a voltmeter that shows the
voltage and stops the flow of current ...
  
> The same is true for voltage.  You can't *measure* it without some  
> current flowing.  But just because you aren't measuring it does not mean  
> the voltage does not exist.  Just as the water pressure still exists,  
> even when you are not measuring it.

It's likely that voltage and water pressure exist even when you don't
measure them, but without measuring them (or otherwise observing their
effects), you don't know that they do. Not oberserving something
doesn't mean that it still exists.

> The question is immaterial.  Whether you know or not is not related to  
> the presence (or absence) of voltage.

But measuring/observing is?


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[owens]

>
>
>
> Original Message 
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: ALSA sound recording frustration
>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:15:50 -0600
>
>>On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:06:42PM +0200, Rob de Graaf wrote:
>>
>>> > The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for
>connecting
>>> > recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too
>high/much,
>>> > you can damage the soundcard.
>>> 
>>> An input which measures voltages (here the microphone input) has
>>> infinite large impedance, hence no current will flow.
>>> 
>>> You are correct by the amplitude of the voltage.
>>
>>How can there be voltage (or voltage measured) without current
>>flowing?
>>
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:
>>
>>"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
>>when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."
>>
>>
>>no current <--> no voltage
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>"Don't let them, daddy. Don't let the stars run down."
>>http://adin.dyndns.org/adin/TheLastQ.htm
>>

I think you are stretching the definitions here.  The input impedence
really isn't "infinite" it's just very large.  As a result a very
small (but non-zero) current will produce the voltage.  Ohms law
still holds
Larry
>>
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>>
>>
>>




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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Thomas H. George]

I just had a long struggle with Alsa and Lenny as I had sound from
playing a cd but nothing from input to the mobo sound card.  I finally
learned to switch the alsamixer to capture (tab) and try different
capture choices (arrows, space bar) until I found the correct setting.



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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:11:47 -0600
lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello lee,

> > flowing.  And you still have voltage at your outlet, even though
> > no current is flowing.  
> How do you know?

Have you never studied electrical theory?   Voltage, or Potential
Difference as it's also known, is always there.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 09:11:31PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:

lee wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:06:42PM +0200, Rob de Graaf wrote:

An input which measures voltages (here the microphone input) has
infinite large impedance, hence no current will flow.

How can there be voltage (or voltage measured) without current
flowing?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:

"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."
The wikipedia article is correct as to the definition of a volt in  
mathematical terms.  However, voltage is the electrical equivalent of  
water pressure.  You can have water pressure, even if there is no water  
flowing (i.e. a full water tower with no water flowing out).


But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water
pressure without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it
for voltage without flow.



Actually, you can't do it for water without some water flowing, either. 
 In order to measure the water pressure, you have to transfer some of 
the energy from the water to the measuring device - hence a flow, albeit 
a small one.


The same is true for voltage.  You can't *measure* it without some 
current flowing.  But just because you aren't measuring it does not mean 
the voltage does not exist.  Just as the water pressure still exists, 
even when you are not measuring it.


An ideal voltmeter will have infinite impedance, so no current would 
flow.  But while nothing is ideal, the best voltmeters have impedances 
of 100M ohms per volt and higher.  So while there is a current flowing, 
the amount is so negligible as to be effectively not there.  Just like 
you can effectively ignore the water flow when measuring the pressure.


You still have a voltage across a battery, even when no current is  
flowing.  And you still have voltage at your outlet, even though no  
current is flowing.


How do you know?



The question is immaterial.  Whether you know or not is not related to 
the presence (or absence) of voltage.


Without getting into the more technical stuff, for correct operation  
impedances need to match.  Any mismatch lower performance.  A small  
mismatch probably won't be noticed but a larger one will.


Yes, what you're explaining is pretty much the point: It's not a good
idea to connect incompatible things like a headphone outlet to a
microphone inlet without appropriate adaptation. It might work or not,
it might damage something or not ...





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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Napoleon]

John Hasler wrote:

Napoleon writes:

Without getting into the more technical stuff, for correct operation
impedances need to match.  Any mismatch lower performance.  A small
mismatch probably won't be noticed but a larger one will.


You need an impedance match for maximum power transfer but that is rarely
what is wanted (it means equal power dissipation in source and load).  You
also need to terminate transmission lines at one end or the other in the
line's characteristic impedence but unless your audio cables are miles long
that doesn't matter either.


Sorry - meant this to go to the list.

It's not just maximum power transfer.  An impedance mismatch also
affects frequency response; the greater the mismatch, the greater the
high frequency rolloff.  A great enough mismatch and it is quite
noticeable, even at audio frequencies.

And transmission lines need to be terminated at BOTH ends in the line's
characteristic impedance.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you - but it does to most audiophiles.  They
can hear the difference.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[John Hasler]

Napoleon writes:
> Without getting into the more technical stuff, for correct operation
> impedances need to match.  Any mismatch lower performance.  A small
> mismatch probably won't be noticed but a larger one will.

You need an impedance match for maximum power transfer but that is rarely
what is wanted (it means equal power dissipation in source and load).  You
also need to terminate transmission lines at one end or the other in the
line's characteristic impedence but unless your audio cables are miles long
that doesn't matter either.
-- 
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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 09:11:31PM -0500, Napoleon wrote:
> lee wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:06:42PM +0200, Rob de Graaf wrote:
>>> An input which measures voltages (here the microphone input) has
>>> infinite large impedance, hence no current will flow.
>> How can there be voltage (or voltage measured) without current
>> flowing?
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:
>>
>> "The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
>> when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."
>
> The wikipedia article is correct as to the definition of a volt in  
> mathematical terms.  However, voltage is the electrical equivalent of  
> water pressure.  You can have water pressure, even if there is no water  
> flowing (i.e. a full water tower with no water flowing out).

But how do know that there is voltage when you cannot measure it or
otherwise make evident that there is? As far as I understand it, you
cannot do that without current flowing. You can do it for water
pressure without water flowing, but I don't see how you could do it
for voltage without flow.

> You still have a voltage across a battery, even when no current is  
> flowing.  And you still have voltage at your outlet, even though no  
> current is flowing.

How do you know?

> Without getting into the more technical stuff, for correct operation  
> impedances need to match.  Any mismatch lower performance.  A small  
> mismatch probably won't be noticed but a larger one will.

Yes, what you're explaining is pretty much the point: It's not a good
idea to connect incompatible things like a headphone outlet to a
microphone inlet without appropriate adaptation. It might work or not,
it might damage something or not ...


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Napoleon]

lee wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:06:42PM +0200, Rob de Graaf wrote:


The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for connecting
recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too high/much,
you can damage the soundcard.

An input which measures voltages (here the microphone input) has
infinite large impedance, hence no current will flow.

You are correct by the amplitude of the voltage.


How can there be voltage (or voltage measured) without current
flowing?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:

"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."


no current <--> no voltage




The wikipedia article is correct as to the definition of a volt in 
mathematical terms.  However, voltage is the electrical equivalent of 
water pressure.  You can have water pressure, even if there is no water 
flowing (i.e. a full water tower with no water flowing out).


You still have a voltage across a battery, even when no current is 
flowing.  And you still have voltage at your outlet, even though no 
current is flowing.


Now, there is no such thing as an infinitely large impedance, but 
microphone inputs are higher (typically 200-1K ohms for dynamic mics, 
the most common used today).  Headphone impedance is typically 4-8 ohms.


Without getting into the more technical stuff, for correct operation 
impedances need to match.  Any mismatch lower performance.  A small 
mismatch probably won't be noticed but a larger one will.


Additionally, headphone output is typically a few watts maximum, while 
microphones work in the micro watt range.


With all of this said, you can connect a recording device to the 
headphone output - but you will need an adapter to convert the impedance 
and power from the headphones to what the recorder can accept.


BTW - there is a third standard - some devices have a "line out" and 
others have a "line in".  This is defined as 1 volt peak-to-peak across 
a 1K ohm impedance.  It is made just for such operation.


So if your sound card does not have a line out, but your recorder has a 
line in, you might be able to find a device which will convert from the 
headphone out to the line input, more easily than you can to a mic input.


Sorry this is so long - but hope it helps.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:06:42PM +0200, Rob de Graaf wrote:

> > The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for connecting
> > recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too high/much,
> > you can damage the soundcard.
> 
> An input which measures voltages (here the microphone input) has
> infinite large impedance, hence no current will flow.
> 
> You are correct by the amplitude of the voltage.

How can there be voltage (or voltage measured) without current
flowing?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt:

"The volt is defined as the potential difference across a conductor
when a current of one ampere dissipates one watt of power."


no current <--> no voltage


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Rob de Graaf]

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 18:01 +0100, lee wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 09:38:40AM -0500, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> 
> > also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones jack
> of my
> > radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.
> 
> The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for connecting
> recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too high/much,
> you can damage the soundcard.

An input which measures voltages (here the microphone input) has
infinite large impedance, hence no current will flow.

You are correct by the amplitude of the voltage.

Best,

Rob


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[H.S.]

Mark Neidorff wrote:
> 
> Is there anything else you need to know about my system to help me get sound 
> working?  
> 
> PLEASE HELP me get sound working.

To list the recording devices on your system use the command:
$> arecord -l
..snip..
card 1: M2496 [M Audio Audiophile 24/96], device 0: ICE1712 multi
[ICE1712 multi]
  Subdevices: 1/1
  Subdevice #0: subdevice #0


Using the output of the above command, you can specify the recording
device to arecord using "-D" option. For example, here is a command I
have used in the past (change the device according to your settings):
$> arecord -D plug:hw:1 --duration=10 --file-type raw  -f cd foo.wav


Regards.



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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[lee]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 09:38:40AM -0500, Mark Neidorff wrote:

> also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones jack of my 
> radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.

The headphone connector is for headphones, it is not for connecting
recording devices: If the voltage and/or current are too high/much,
you can damage the soundcard.


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Re: ALSA sound recording frustration

[Nigel Henry]

On Thursday 27 November 2008 15:38, Mark Neidorff wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> In case I have to say it, I'm very frustrated trying to get ALSA sound
> working on my Debian ETCH (up to date) box.
>
> My motherboard has built-in sound.  Needless to say, I want to hear sound.
> I also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones jack of
> my radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.
>
> I've used
> arecord -t wav -f CD junk.wav
> to try to record.  No matter what the settings in the mixers...total
> silence (as seen by audacity and as confirmed by using hexdump).
>
> I've searched.
> I tried reloading the ALSA drivers.
> I ran alsaconf.
> I downloaded and installed the kernel source and the ALSA drivers source,
> but I was not able to compile the drivers (couldn't find version.h).  Yes,
> I adjusted for source location with:
> ./config --with-kernel=/usr/src/linux-source-2.6.18
> I've tried alsamixer and alsamixergui.
>
> Here is a bunch of info that I found about my system:
>
> alsamixergui:
>
> Chip Analog Devices  AD1986A
>
> +--
>
> lspci | grep -i audio
>
> 00:10.1 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP51 High Definition Audio (rev
> a2)
>
> +--
>
> uname -a
>
> Linux mail 2.6.18-6-k7 #1 SMP Mon Oct 13 16:52:47 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux
>
> +
>
> cat /dev/sndstat
>
> Sound Driver:3.8.1a-980706 (ALSA v1.0.12rc1 emulation code)
> Kernel: Linux mail 2.6.18-6-k7 #1 SMP Mon Oct 13 16:52:47 UTC 2008 i686
> Config options: 0
>
> Installed drivers:
> Type 10: ALSA emulation
>
> Card config:
> HDA NVidia at 0xfe024000 irq 177
>
> Audio devices:
> 0: AD198x Analog (DUPLEX)
>
> Synth devices: NOT ENABLED IN CONFIG
>
> Midi devices: NOT ENABLED IN CONFIG
>
> Timers:
> 7: system timer
>
> Mixers:
> 0: Analog Devices AD1986A
>
> +
>
> ls -l /dev/dsp
>
> crw-rw 1 root audio 14, 3 2008-11-27 08:48 /dev/dsp
>
> +
>
> Is there anything else you need to know about my system to help me get
> sound working?
>
> PLEASE HELP me get sound working.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark

Hi Mark.

I've got Etch installed on a machine, with a mobo that uses MCP61, and the 
alsa driver version 1.0.12rc1, that comes with the 2.6.18 kernel, and I get 
no sounds using that alsa driver. 
cat /proc/asound/cards ,  shows no soundcards, unless I have my usb midi 
keyboard plugged in. Then it shows the keyboard as card0. You will probably 
find that when running lsmod it shows all snd modules installed, but the card 
is not being detected.

Their are 2 options. Upgrade the alsa driver, which is currently 1.0.18a, or 
install a later kernel, which has a later alsa driver. 

I chose on this machine to install a later kernel, which has alsa driver 
1.0.16, and my sound on Etch works ok with this.

If you want go this way, add the following line to /etc/apt/sources.list

deb ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/deb/ ./

Then run apt-get update, then open synaptic. The kernel you want is as below.

linux-image-2.6.26.2-rt1-libre1

I could never find a GPG key for the musix repo, but if you have problems 
installing the kernel with synaptic, you can set the option to ignore the 
missing GPG key. I know it's not a good idea to install unsigned packages, 
and will have to have another go at finding the key for the musix repo, if 
one exists.

Presuming that you now have the 2.6.26 kernel installed now, reboot, and 
choose it on Grub's menu, and hopefully on login (I'm using KDE) you now have 
some login sounds, and more important, the sound works.

Don't forget to comment out the line for the musix repo after installing the 
kernel, by putting a # at the start of the line in /etc/apt/sources.list, as 
you don't want possible updates for other packages you have installed on your 
Etch, being updated from the Musix repo. Problems can arise when you use repo 
pick and mix.

If you still have no sound, post back.

All the best.

Nigel.



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ALSA sound recording frustration

[Mark Neidorff]

Hi All,

In case I have to say it, I'm very frustrated trying to get ALSA sound working 
on my Debian ETCH (up to date) box.

My motherboard has built-in sound.  Needless to say, I want to hear sound. I 
also want to be able to record sound from the stereo headphones jack of my 
radio and the stereo audio out from my XM radio.

I've used 
arecord -t wav -f CD junk.wav
to try to record.  No matter what the settings in the mixers...total silence 
(as seen by audacity and as confirmed by using hexdump).

I've searched.  
I tried reloading the ALSA drivers.  
I ran alsaconf.  
I downloaded and installed the kernel source and the ALSA drivers source, but 
I was not able to compile the drivers (couldn't find version.h).  Yes, I 
adjusted for source location with:
./config --with-kernel=/usr/src/linux-source-2.6.18
I've tried alsamixer and alsamixergui.  

Here is a bunch of info that I found about my system:

alsamixergui:

Chip Analog Devices  AD1986A

+--

lspci | grep -i audio

00:10.1 Audio device: nVidia Corporation MCP51 High Definition Audio (rev a2)

+--

uname -a

Linux mail 2.6.18-6-k7 #1 SMP Mon Oct 13 16:52:47 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux

+

cat /dev/sndstat

Sound Driver:3.8.1a-980706 (ALSA v1.0.12rc1 emulation code)
Kernel: Linux mail 2.6.18-6-k7 #1 SMP Mon Oct 13 16:52:47 UTC 2008 i686
Config options: 0

Installed drivers:
Type 10: ALSA emulation

Card config:
HDA NVidia at 0xfe024000 irq 177

Audio devices:
0: AD198x Analog (DUPLEX)

Synth devices: NOT ENABLED IN CONFIG

Midi devices: NOT ENABLED IN CONFIG

Timers:
7: system timer

Mixers:
0: Analog Devices AD1986A

+

ls -l /dev/dsp

crw-rw 1 root audio 14, 3 2008-11-27 08:48 /dev/dsp

+

Is there anything else you need to know about my system to help me get sound 
working?  

PLEASE HELP me get sound working.

Thanks,

Mark


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