Re: Amanda (was: sata driver compataility Q)

[Glenn]

My all time fav for file level backups is BackupPC. De-duplicates files in the 
compressed pool.

Glenn 

On September 19, 2023 12:18:36 p.m. ADT, gene heskett  
wrote:
>On 9/19/23 08:59, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> Compared to the setup required for amanda, that sounds very inviting. Amanda
>>> has a very steep learning curve just because it is so versatile I'm still
>>> waiting on stuff, so no more actual progress.
>> 
>> I used Amanda many years ago and was quite pleased with it, but I must
>> say I'm having a hard time imagining it in my current world where tapes
>> don't make much sense for backups.
>> 
>Thats where vtapes come in, A vtape is nothing more than a directory on the 
>backup medium, which for me was a BIG hard drive with in my case, 60 suddirs, 
>used as tapes. Each contained individual files identified as to backup level 
>which was a way ti differentiate a full copy, or what had ben changed since 
>the last full, or what had been changed since the last level 1, wash rinse 
>repeat for ever deeper levels. And with or w/o compression. Executables 
>generally aren't worth the time to compress. Ditto for a dir full if pictures 
>or pdf's. They are not very compressible.  In the days of tapes, a buffer 
>drive was used to build up each entry as a big file that was then copied to 
>the tape w/o any shoe-shining of the tapedrive, saveibg the huge wear and tear 
>of the tape if it had to stop and wait for data from the compressor. Then back 
>uo a few feet, back forward to begin a fresh write at the end of the previous 
>track. But since spinning rust is random access, amd so is the vtape, I don't 
>think the anti-shoeshine has much if any advantage whrn using vtapes. With 
>some filesystems it might reduce fragmentation but that was never a problem 
>with ext4. I ran with that buffer drive for about 17 yeas, starting out with a 
>4 tape seagate dds4 tape drive but it was by far, the least dependable thing 
>in that whole chain. I was then backing up 3 cnc machines and this ones 
>predecessor, but the drive needed a months vacation in Oklahoma city about 2x 
>a year for a new head drum that seagate would not sell me, a CET with 
>extensive experience replacing even smaller, more precise and damn sure more 
>expensive at $3500 a copy dvc-pro broadcast vcr heads.  So I tried vtapes, 
>first on a 220G drive but soon opted for a bigger one as they became 
>available, and had just graduated to a pair of seagates first 2T's, both of 
>which just disapeared off the sata buss in the middle of the night. the main 
>drive for this machine and the amanda drive. They were about 2 weeks old. So I 
>rebuilt this machine using a 500G Samsung SSD. I was out of the amanda 
>business and lost everything with those 2 failures, whih upset me so much I 
>never tried to warranty them. I was done with spinning rust.
>
>Some of the loss was the only pix of my first wife who had a stroke and died 
>in '68 at 34. Left me with 3 children to raise, but the big C and a bottle of 
>scotch has since eliminated them. And my personal email archive that went back 
>to '98 when I built my first linux machine using a 400 mhz k6 cpu. Put RedHat 
>5.0 on it.  And I was in hog heaven, I never owned a windows machine until I 
>needed one for the road after I retired in 2002 and became a consultant, going 
>around to other tv stations putting out engineering fires created by wannabe 
>engineers. The windows xp on it lasted about 2 weeks that it took me to find 
>out windows xp had no drivers for the radio in it, but mandrake did.
>
>Amanda keeps a database, so if something gets erased you need later, it could 
>be recovered as long as in my case 60 days later before the vtape has been 
>reused.
>
>One of the things my wrapper did was append that database to the end of that 
>vtape when amanda was finished from its nightly run, thereby making it 
>possible to do a bare metal recovery to the state that existed during the run. 
>Without that, you lost the most recent run because the database you backed up 
>was yesterdays.
>
>So AFAIAC, amanda was the king. Then amanda was handed over to Zmanda, who 
>eventually went bust and sold it to betsol, who has done zip for it in several 
>years.  Community support from other users is all thats left.
>Not the end of it of course, but somebody who actually cares needs to fork it 
>and become its new leader. 95% of the work on amanda has been driven by 
>changes in tar over the last decade+.
>
>> What are the use cases where Amanda still beats the pants down of
>> competitors like Borg or Bup?
>
>I know nothing about either of those. This thread ought to have input from 
>their users so people can make more informed decisions as to which is best for 
>their situation.
>> 
>> 
>>  Stefan
>Take care & stay well, Stefan, and other readers.
>> 
>> .
>
>Cheers, Gene Heskett.
>-- 
>"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."

Re: Amanda (was: sata driver compataility Q)

[gene heskett]

On 9/19/23 08:59, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Compared to the setup required for amanda, that sounds very inviting. Amanda
has a very steep learning curve just because it is so versatile I'm still
waiting on stuff, so no more actual progress.


I used Amanda many years ago and was quite pleased with it, but I must
say I'm having a hard time imagining it in my current world where tapes
don't make much sense for backups.

Thats where vtapes come in, A vtape is nothing more than a directory on 
the backup medium, which for me was a BIG hard drive with in my case, 60 
suddirs, used as tapes. Each contained individual files identified as to 
backup level which was a way ti differentiate a full copy, or what had 
ben changed since the last full, or what had been changed since the last 
level 1, wash rinse repeat for ever deeper levels. And with or w/o 
compression. Executables generally aren't worth the time to compress. 
Ditto for a dir full if pictures or pdf's. They are not very 
compressible.  In the days of tapes, a buffer drive was used to build up 
each entry as a big file that was then copied to the tape w/o any 
shoe-shining of the tapedrive, saveibg the huge wear and tear of the 
tape if it had to stop and wait for data from the compressor. Then back 
uo a few feet, back forward to begin a fresh write at the end of the 
previous track. But since spinning rust is random access, amd so is the 
vtape, I don't think the anti-shoeshine has much if any advantage whrn 
using vtapes. With some filesystems it might reduce fragmentation but 
that was never a problem with ext4. I ran with that buffer drive for 
about 17 yeas, starting out with a 4 tape seagate dds4 tape drive but it 
was by far, the least dependable thing in that whole chain. I was then 
backing up 3 cnc machines and this ones predecessor, but the drive 
needed a months vacation in Oklahoma city about 2x a year for a new head 
drum that seagate would not sell me, a CET with extensive experience 
replacing even smaller, more precise and damn sure more expensive at 
$3500 a copy dvc-pro broadcast vcr heads.  So I tried vtapes, first on a 
220G drive but soon opted for a bigger one as they became available, and 
had just graduated to a pair of seagates first 2T's, both of which just 
disapeared off the sata buss in the middle of the night. the main drive 
for this machine and the amanda drive. They were about 2 weeks old. So I 
rebuilt this machine using a 500G Samsung SSD. I was out of the amanda 
business and lost everything with those 2 failures, whih upset me so 
much I never tried to warranty them. I was done with spinning rust.


Some of the loss was the only pix of my first wife who had a stroke and 
died in '68 at 34. Left me with 3 children to raise, but the big C and a 
bottle of scotch has since eliminated them. And my personal email 
archive that went back to '98 when I built my first linux machine using 
a 400 mhz k6 cpu. Put RedHat 5.0 on it.  And I was in hog heaven, I 
never owned a windows machine until I needed one for the road after I 
retired in 2002 and became a consultant, going around to other tv 
stations putting out engineering fires created by wannabe engineers. The 
windows xp on it lasted about 2 weeks that it took me to find out 
windows xp had no drivers for the radio in it, but mandrake did.


Amanda keeps a database, so if something gets erased you need later, it 
could be recovered as long as in my case 60 days later before the vtape 
has been reused.


One of the things my wrapper did was append that database to the end of 
that vtape when amanda was finished from its nightly run, thereby making 
it possible to do a bare metal recovery to the state that existed during 
the run. Without that, you lost the most recent run because the database 
you backed up was yesterdays.


So AFAIAC, amanda was the king. Then amanda was handed over to Zmanda, 
who eventually went bust and sold it to betsol, who has done zip for it 
in several years.  Community support from other users is all thats left.
Not the end of it of course, but somebody who actually cares needs to 
fork it and become its new leader. 95% of the work on amanda has been 
driven by changes in tar over the last decade+.



What are the use cases where Amanda still beats the pants down of
competitors like Borg or Bup?


I know nothing about either of those. This thread ought to have input 
from their users so people can make more informed decisions as to which 
is best for their situation.



 Stefan

Take care & stay well, Stefan, and other readers.


.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Amanda (was: sata driver compataility Q)

[Stefan Monnier]

> Compared to the setup required for amanda, that sounds very inviting. Amanda
> has a very steep learning curve just because it is so versatile I'm still
> waiting on stuff, so no more actual progress.

I used Amanda many years ago and was quite pleased with it, but I must
say I'm having a hard time imagining it in my current world where tapes
don't make much sense for backups.

What are the use cases where Amanda still beats the pants down of
competitors like Borg or Bup?


Stefan