Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Bill Wohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I still think the installation of a OS (any OS) is not something to do if you don't have some basic knowledge of computers. That's a bug, not a feature. I'd like to see the installation of Debian be as hard as installing your TV: plug in some wires and hit the power button. and then look through the menus for the auto-search option, which has a different name for each manufacturer, but wait now I have all programs, but I want to change the order and sometimes the auto-search does not properly detect the format (pal BG or DK) and some channels don't have sound ... It still requires you to actually RTFM. A wrong answer and you could wipe all your data. The software should (ultimately) prevent that. But sometimes you want to wipe a partition (or everything) and do a clean install. It's a feature not a bug. It's been a while since I installed Debian, but I'd like to see X get launched ASAP (assuming the user isn't using a dumb terminal) so that GUI programs can lead the user through the installation. It would make Debian look a whole lot more professional, and enable more people to use it. The use of aptitude is NOT obvious by looking at it. Synaptic is a lot better in this regard. A GUI installer would also be more usable by appealing to the users' emotions. I didn't try the new installer, but I think X is launched immediately. But my experience is that this only makes the installer more appealing (visually). The (l)users still don't read the text. This is the biggest problem. And the GUI installer takes up more space. This means compromises need to be made, like less software on the first disk. I want to have as much important software as possible on the first CD, in case my connection doesn't work or is too slow, ... When the GUI installer will be officially released (together with etch?) it would be nice to have separate ISO builds (GUI or TUI) for the CD images (for DVD it's not so important, there is enough space). But this means more work, so I guess the TUI installer will be dropped as soon as the GUI is stable enough. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Andrei Popescu wrote: And the GUI installer takes up more space. This means compromises need to be made, like less software on the first disk. I want to have as much important software as possible on the first CD, in case my connection doesn't work or is too slow, ... It takes up 9 mb of space, which is not very significant. Most things are shared with the text mode installer. so I guess the TUI installer will be dropped as soon as the GUI is stable enough. Not going to happen. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Zbigniew Wiech wrote, On 2006-09-08 22:58: ... 3. What is best solution for mail delivery for my single desktop and mail account on ISP server ? smarthost, local delivery or SMTP ? Now I know it's kmail and I do not need exim at all. Agreed that the case of a desktop machine connecting to an ISP needs to be treated as a significant portion of the user base, and a correct option explained. I still need exim for programs that send reports by email, most notably reportbug. My ISP offers the option of a mail server accessible via SSL on port 465. exim4 does not support this natively, but can be coaxed into doing so (see http://www.technovelty.org/linux/tips/exim4ssmtp.html ). I'd really like to know why exim4 doesn't support this outgoing smtp over SSL on port 465 without resorting to stunnel and have filed a bug about this missing feature. GUI installer wouldn't help much there, rather default automatic windows-like installation for newbies, when you're asked only for empty partition and your name. Curses or GIU - no matter. regards zbigniew A curses-based installation can be done in text mode, which is great for when it is difficult to get the monitor working in graphics mode. Regards, Arthur. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Arthur Marsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still need exim for programs that send reports by email, most notably reportbug. Actually reportbug can do just fine without any MTA or smarthost. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I still think the installation of a OS (any OS) is not something to do if you don't have some basic knowledge of computers. That's a bug, not a feature. I'd like to see the installation of Debian be as hard as installing your TV: plug in some wires and hit the power button. A wrong answer and you could wipe all your data. The software should (ultimately) prevent that. It's been a while since I installed Debian, but I'd like to see X get launched ASAP (assuming the user isn't using a dumb terminal) so that GUI programs can lead the user through the installation. It would make Debian look a whole lot more professional, and enable more people to use it. The use of aptitude is NOT obvious by looking at it. Synaptic is a lot better in this regard. A GUI installer would also be more usable by appealing to the users' emotions. -- Bill Wohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 09:20:00AM +0100, Chris Lale wrote: A totally gui install would make Debian feasible for a huge number of home desktop users migrating from Windows. Why? Why does a GUI installer make it feasable, but a ncurses installer not make it feasable? It's unfortunate that Debian has actually caved in to this pressure. [ ... ] My point was that installing Debian should be no more complex than installing other operating systems. Debian could potentially attract a large number of home desktop users from Windows now that Windows 98 is no longer 'supported' and Windows XP is soon to be replaced. Anyone installing Windows would not expect to have to use the DOS commandline during the process. My main concern was that anyone choosing the 'Desktop environment' task during installation should end up with a desktop which includes a GUI front end to Apt (eg Synaptic). They should not have to use commandline tools like Apt-get or Aptitude after the base install. According to the parallel thread in the debian-boot list (http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2006/09/msg00250.html) this will be a possible route. (An Ncurses install would still be an acceptable option, and a necesssary one for low memory systems. It does not involve using the commandline. The point is that by including Synaptic in tasksel's 'Desktop environment' it would be possible to run a Debian system without ever using the commandline. I hear you shuddering with horror!) Debian can be different things to different people - a server, a network client, a development environment, an X environment, a commandline environment, etc. I just think that Debian should offer a smooth ride to someone who wants a Free desktop replacement for Windows. Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Le vendredi 08 septembre 2006 à 08:47 +0100, Chris Lale a écrit : [...] My main concern was that anyone choosing the 'Desktop environment' task during installation should end up with a desktop which includes a GUI front end to Apt (eg Synaptic). They should not have to use commandline tools like Apt-get or Aptitude after the base install. [...] aptitude is not a command-line tool. Just launch it from the Debian menu and you'll see a perfectly edible curses-based package manager. Now the name in the menu hardly helps, but that's another story. Now if you mean GUI like in point-and-click, it would certainly make sense to include synaptic by default in the desktop install. Regards, T. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Thibaut Paumard wrote: [...] aptitude is not a command-line tool. Just launch it from the Debian menu and you'll see a perfectly edible curses-based package manager. Now the name in the menu hardly helps, but that's another story. [ ... ] Well, we are both right. Aptitude is an Ncurses application as you say. It can also be used from the commandline - see man (8) aptitude. The Debian manual recommends using aptitude commands instead of apt-get commands. I was referring to the _commandline_ use of either aptitude or apt-get. Regards, Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 11:52:45AM -0700, Marc Wilson wrote: Unless the ncurses installer is *deficient* in some manner, the mere GUI-ness of the other installer does not enhance the installation in any way. They both do exactly the same job in exactly the same way. If they don't, then one or the other is broken. Someday there'll actually be a non-religious answer to this question. People feel comfortable with things that look like the things they think they feel comfortable with. :) Plus TUI interfaces are /so/ MS-DOS. We live in a Windows world now! :) -- To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the greatest tribute. - High Court Judge Michael Kirby -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Unless the ncurses installer is *deficient* in some manner, the mere GUI-ness of the other installer does not enhance the installation in any way. They both do exactly the same job in exactly the same way. If they don't, then one or the other is broken. Someday there'll actually be a non-religious answer to this question. 100% true When I was installing debian first time, it was not not curses installer what caused troubles, but different philosophy of debian compared to Windows. Few examples I remember: 1. Windows need just one empty partition for C disc. Debian asks for decisions about filesystem elements (root, swap, home), that are not clear for somebody new in linux. Don't say about automatic partitioning. As a newbie I wanted to retain Windows and dual boot. (In fact it's a plus for linux: Windows installer does not allow to retain dual boot) 2. Questions about mouse/video card/monitor. I had a lot of frustration choosing default vesa card and seeing black screen. I didn't then know it's a problem of card driver (!). Windows does it itself. 3. What is best solution for mail delivery for my single desktop and mail account on ISP server ? smarthost, local delivery or SMTP ? Now I know it's kmail and I do not need exim at all. GUI installer wouldn't help much there, rather default automatic windows-like installation for newbies, when you're asked only for empty partition and your name. Curses or GIU - no matter. regards zbigniew
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Chris Lale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 09:20:00AM +0100, Chris Lale wrote: A totally gui install would make Debian feasible for a huge number of home desktop users migrating from Windows. Why? Why does a GUI installer make it feasable, but a ncurses installer not make it feasable? It's unfortunate that Debian has actually caved in to this pressure. [ ... ] My point was that installing Debian should be no more complex than installing other operating systems. Debian could potentially attract a large number of home desktop users from Windows now that Windows 98 is no longer 'supported' and Windows XP is soon to be replaced. Anyone installing Windows would not expect to have to use the DOS commandline during the process. But XP still has the first part of the setup in TUI mode. The partitioning is done in TUI mode, which is probably the most dangerous part of the setup (from the human error point of view). Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Christian Perrier wrote: While a agree that having a GUI package installation tool installed when one installs the desktop task is definitely something to have (don't we have something?), I disagree about your in the middle of an install comment. So far, the installer installs tasks from tasksel but does not offer a manual install option (the sarge one had one, but it has been dropped while moving the packages installation to 1st stage). By not checking any of the (tasksel?) options you get the manual install. Paul Scott -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Zbigniew Wiech [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Windows need just one empty partition for C disc. Debian asks for decisions about filesystem elements (root, swap, home), that are not clear for somebody new in linux. Don't say about automatic partitioning. As a newbie I wanted to retain Windows and dual boot. (In fact it's a plus for linux: Windows installer does not allow to retain dual boot) I still think the installation of a OS (any OS) is not something to do if you don't have some basic knowledge of computers. A wrong answer and you could wipe all your data. If I recall correctly (it's been a while) windows has an option of installing over the old installation. Most preinstalled computers have only one partition. Then there comes the question about formating the partition ... 2. Questions about mouse/video card/monitor. I had a lot of frustration choosing default vesa card and seeing black screen. I didn't then know it's a problem of card driver (!). Windows does it itself. If it fails at default vesa, you're lucky it worked with windows. Windows also uses default vesa during the install (or at least used to). 3. What is best solution for mail delivery for my single desktop and mail account on ISP server ? smarthost, local delivery or SMTP ? Now I know it's kmail and I do not need exim at all. Careful here, there is a holy war still raging about this! Kmail is *your* best solution. Linux and especially Debian is a lot about choice. As I recall, many of the more technical questions have text like if you don't know what I'm talking about then just accept the default GUI installer wouldn't help much there, rather default automatic windows-like installation for newbies, when you're asked only for empty partition and your name. Curses or GIU - no matter. regards zbigniew If you know what a partition is! One (stupid) user might choose the data partition (hey, I want to keep the old install as well) and then just reformat. I just saw an excellent quote: Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning. -- Rich Cook Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Chris Lale wrote: Is it possible to include a gui front end for APT in the installer for the Etch release? synaptic is included in the desktop task. Certian installation methods (notably, using the full-size CD and no additional mirror) won't include synaptic since it doesn't fit on the CD. Most other installation methods (DVDs or anything involving a mirror) will include synaptic. Ideally, there should also be tasks for installing Gnome, KDE and Xfce desktops. There are (the xfce desktop task is not included in mainline yet). The installation manual explains how to manually force the installer to use a different desktop than the standard gnome desktop. (Basically, you boot with tasksel/first=kde-desktop) -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
On Thu, Sep 07, 2006 at 09:20:00AM +0100, Chris Lale wrote: A totally gui install would make Debian feasible for a huge number of home desktop users migrating from Windows. Why? Why does a GUI installer make it feasable, but a ncurses installer not make it feasable? It's unfortunate that Debian has actually caved in to this pressure. Unless the ncurses installer is *deficient* in some manner, the mere GUI-ness of the other installer does not enhance the installation in any way. They both do exactly the same job in exactly the same way. If they don't, then one or the other is broken. Someday there'll actually be a non-religious answer to this question. -- Marc Wilson | Common sense is instinct, and enough of it is genius. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Josh Billings -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Marc Wilson wrote: Why? Why does a GUI installer make it feasable, but a ncurses installer not make it feasable? It's unfortunate that Debian has actually caved in to this pressure. Well, the rationalle most developers have for working on the GUI version of the installer is that it allows installation in some languages that can't be displayed using the console. There *are* actual UI improvements possible using a GUI installer, although they're not implemented yet. At least the groundwork is now laid. Unless the ncurses installer is *deficient* in some manner, the mere GUI-ness of the other installer does not enhance the installation in any way. They both do exactly the same job in exactly the same way. If they don't, then one or the other is broken. Amausingly, most of the bug reports on the GUI version of the installer have been about various bugs that make it hard to use with the keyboard. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [...] Amausingly... Oh, /great/ word! I love the dual connotations... Mind if I steal it occasionally? Cybe R. Wizard -- Press 'START' to stop Winduhs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Cybe R. Wizard wrote: Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [...] Amausingly... Oh, /great/ word! I love the dual connotations... Mind if I steal it occasionally? Please feel free to steal all my typos.. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
Quoting Chris Lale ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): It does not seem possible to install a desktop system with a totally gui interface using the beta-3 debian-installer. expertgui looks really good, but tasksel 2.53 only has an option for 'Desktop environment'. This may be broken (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=386244), but, as far as I can see, does not include Synaptic or any other gui front end for APT. So, post-install requires use of commandline apt-get or aptitude in order to install any packages - including any particular desktop. Is it possible to include a gui front end for APT in the installer for the Etch release? A totally gui install would make Debian feasible for a huge number of home desktop users migrating from Windows. Having to use the commandline in the middle of an install (with no hand-holding) could put a lot of potential users off. While a agree that having a GUI package installation tool installed when one installs the desktop task is definitely something to have (don't we have something?), I disagree about your in the middle of an install comment. So far, the installer installs tasks from tasksel but does not offer a manual install option (the sarge one had one, but it has been dropped while moving the packages installation to 1st stage). Please check against tasksel bug reports, there may be one already requesting for a GUI package installer to be included in the desktop task. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Beta-3 Etch install avoiding commandline?
It does not seem possible to install a desktop system with a totally gui interface using the beta-3 debian-installer. expertgui looks really good, but tasksel 2.53 only has an option for 'Desktop environment'. This may be broken (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=386244), but, as far as I can see, does not include Synaptic or any other gui front end for APT. So, post-install requires use of commandline apt-get or aptitude in order to install any packages - including any particular desktop. Is it possible to include a gui front end for APT in the installer for the Etch release? A totally gui install would make Debian feasible for a huge number of home desktop users migrating from Windows. Having to use the commandline in the middle of an install (with no hand-holding) could put a lot of potential users off. Ideally, there should also be tasks for installing Gnome, KDE and Xfce desktops. Cheers, Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
