[Path forward] WAS: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 04/21/2022 07:03 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? Yes. This discussion has pointed out several things I wish I had been aware of when I had done the original install. Debian 11 will be installed on a different physical machine which has much more physical disk space and an available SSD slot. I will use a separate /home partition and take a look at possible additional partitions while moving data piecemeal from this machine. Thanks to all for some education.
Re: CMOS clock (was: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3)
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 05:21:56PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > (When switching between Unix and Windows, I need t adjust the CMOS clock on > > the next boot.) > > Side note: You could presumably skip this by configuring your Windows > installs to use UTC for the CMOS clock. See e.g.: > > https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/System_time#UTC_in_Microsoft_Windows Anecdote: there was a time where Microsoft hadn't yet understood the concept of a time-zone independent system time which was then translated to a more user-facing local time. UNIX was already happy doing that. I was working back then for a software shop doing C development for DOS (ick...), then Windows. Timestamps for files under Windows were, of course, local time too. Imagine Make's confusion (which relies on comparing file time stamps) the "Day After", especially when files were copied over from a sane Unix-y box (we had Coherent, then, yes, Linux). We decided to put all Windows boxes in a time zone which was "naturally" GMT and had no DST changes. I remember all our Windows boxes lived in Liberia/Monrovia. Make was happy. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMOS clock (was: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3)
On 4/21/22 14:21, Stefan Monnier wrote: (When switching between Unix and Windows, I need t adjust the CMOS clock on the next boot.) Side note: You could presumably skip this by configuring your Windows installs to use UTC for the CMOS clock. See e.g.: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/System_time#UTC_in_Microsoft_Windows Yes, others have suggested that. I prefer to keep the habit -- for when I use a live Debian USB stick to mess with other Windows computers. David
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On Thu 21 Apr 2022 at 13:04:31 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 04/21/2022 10:12 AM, Christian Britz wrote: > > On 2022-04-21 16:34 UTC+0200, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > My browser is a SeaMonkey stand alone executable. > > > > There is such a thing? The SeaMonkey I know, consists of many different > > files in a directory, not one "stand alone executable". > > And it will store it's settings and stuff in a profile directory under > > /home. > > And due to odd circumstances that's where SeaMonkey is installed. If SM was downloaded in a version not specifically tailored for an ancient Debian 9, that may well be one thing you don't have to worry about—software and its configuration remain wedded. Cheers, David.
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 4/21/22 05:59, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 07:03:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. Desktop environments and some programs (libre office, browsers, that kind of stuff) putting their user configs in your home might get confused should you plan to change back-and-forth. +1 I have a SOHO network with a few Debian instances. I put each OS on its own SSD, leave the home directory on the root filesystem, and put the vast majority of my data on a file server/ version control server. When I want to run a different OS on a given machine, I power down and swap OS disks. (When switching between Unix and Windows, I need t adjust the CMOS clock on the next boot.) My daily driver OS disk is usually in a laptop. Home directories remain on the local disk, including their various dot files (notably ~/.thunderbird). I access the rest of the data via the LAN when local, or via VPN/ SSH when remote. When I want to upgrade or downgrade an OS, I check-in the machine configuration files, backup any data (there should be little or none), install a blank SSD in an available machine, do a fresh install, check-out the old configuration to a side directory, configure the new OS, and restore any data. When migrating an application forward (e.g. migrating to a newer OS), the new application needs data backward-compatibility. When migrating an application backward (e.g. reverting to an older OS), the old application needs data forward-compatibility. The former is reasonably common; the latter is not. (At least one pair of Thunderbird versions I used lacked data forward-compatibility). When preparing for an application (or OS) upgrade or downgrade, you would be well advised to prepare for any data incompatibilities. (Such incompatibilities are a form of data disaster.) At the minimum, backup your current data. Better yet, make an archival copy of your most important current data (e.g. burn to optical disc). David
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 04/21/2022 10:12 AM, Christian Britz wrote: On 2022-04-21 16:34 UTC+0200, Richard Owlett wrote: My browser is a SeaMonkey stand alone executable. There is such a thing? The SeaMonkey I know, consists of many different files in a directory, not one "stand alone executable". And it will store it's settings and stuff in a profile directory under /home. And due to odd circumstances that's where SeaMonkey is installed.
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On Thu 21 Apr 2022 at 07:03:01 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote: > I am not upgrading in place. > > I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on > a different partition. > > I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain > on its current partition. > > I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf > [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] > > Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? Apart from the things that hit you anyway when you upgrade, like the disappearance of Python2, and incompatible dotfiles that might or might not be automatically adjusted for you, you may have to cope with retaining the older versions of configuration files so that you can boot back and forth. I use symlinks where necessary, so I have the Debian codename written at the end of the first line of my sources.list, and that sets $Mycodename accordingly. Some symlinks are also handling $HOSTNAME so that I can share configuration files between different machines. When I start using a new version, I move the dotfiles for some packages out of the way, and let a new set be written. Then I diff the new dotfiles against a set of virgin dotfiles from the previous version to see what's changed, and make appropriate changes to my own set of files. Firefox can be a pain, so I set up a global variable that contains $HOSTNAME-$Mycodename pairs which prevent me from accidentally upgrading FF before I'm ready, or accidentally running the previous version on any given machine. Again, if you run several machines, you might want to copy the /etc/ssh/ keys from the old version to the new installation for a peaceful life. If you have multiple users, then you want to make sure you use the same UIDs between versions and machines. Be careful if you copy system files between any of them, because certain packages use their own UID/GIDs, like exim (Debian-exim), apt-cacher-ng, which could translate into randomly different users elsewhere. (Most stuff is root/root.) Alsa: symlinked to the real files in /etc, that 1000 owns. Audacious: symlinks. Might be historical—I've been at it for years. Cups: verboten pre-bullseye. Lilypond: installed, but I only run downloaded tarballs from /home. Mc: symlinks were even required for libav/ffmpeg at one time. Mutt: needed the FF-style fix (above) when it had that write_bcc bug. X: as long as xtoolwait still runs, no version switches at present (only between hosts). Those are some that spring to mind. Disclaimer: I don't run any DE, let alone a variety of them, nor do I make serious use of *Office except as a viewer. I'm just running "standard" Debian, and taking my time over upgrading several, very different machines. Cheers, David.
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 11:15 AM Richard Owlett wrote: > On 04/21/2022 08:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 8:21 AM Richard Owlett > wrote: > > > >> I am not upgrading in place. > >> > >> I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a > >> different partition. > >> > >> I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on > >> its current partition. > >> > >> I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf > >> [ > >> > https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html > >> ] > >> > >> Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on > >> both? > >> > > > > My approach to this is to create (and use) a separate Partition, which I > > call /bighome. When I create users (I use several, based on Function), I > > separately create a Directory on /bighome, and change its ownership to > the > > User. > > > > Each Partition has its own /home, but mainly for the .dot files. > Anything > > that is likely to be long term is on /bighome. > > > > This /bighome has survived from Squeeze to Bookworm, as well as a number > of > > Ubuntu releases. > > > > Sounds interesting. Do you have multiple versions of Debian installed at > the same time or have you upgraded a single copy of Debian several times? > All of the above. For example, on my tower, I have 9 Debians, two Ubuntu occurences, and Mint 20. This includes two Bullseye occurrences, one on xfce and one on KDE. But there is only one /bighome, used by all of these. > Hope this helps. > > > > Kenneth Parker >
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 21/4/22 8:03 pm, Richard Owlett wrote: I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? TIA I believe that you may have difficulties accessing data files that you have accessed from an application in 11.3, if you try to access them using an earlier version of the application, on 9.13. For example, should you use an application such as gramps, the data could be stored in a different DBMS, between different versions. Also, in later versions of an application, extensions may exist, that did not exist in an earlier version. Whilst this simple example could be overcome by using an equivalent, an example, is that the version of office word processor (I use the term "office", as you may have libre office or apache office, or, you may use abiword) may have a font that you now prefer - the hairydogtail font, and, in the version applicable to 9.13, may have had a font named hairlesscattail font, and that may be deemed the equivalent font, leading stuff to look somewhat different. I think that, as I have multiple versions of operating system installed, and, a separate home partition for each, what I do, is, if I want a data file from a earlier version home partition, I copy it to the later version home partition, and, depending on the nature of the file, do not access it from the earlier version of the operating system. A good example of problems that you could encounter, is that, if you use alpine (the successor to pine), the configuration files are stored in the home directory/partition, and, changes from one version to the next, of alpine, mean that, whilst the later version may be able to import the settings from an earlier version of alpine, it is unlikely that an earlier version of alpine, can use the settings, and therefore, the settings file(s) of a later version of alpine. Also, with alpine, it has happened that the storing of the settings, has changed, from one version to the next, being stored in multiple files, in the later version, instead of a single file, in the earlier version. In Ubuntu Linux, this also happened, with /etc/apt/sources.list, which became split, involving a new directory. Whilst that is not of the Debian home partition, that is an example of how things can change from one version to another., and, can show how accessing data files applicable to a later version of an operating system, can be problematic when using an earlier version of the same operating system. I believe that what you would be best doing, is what I do; have a separate home partition for each operating system; keep it small, about 32GB, and, have data partitions (I use data1, data2, data3, etc, each with, as I figure, a maximum size of 64GB, for ease on backing up and copying/transferring between computers, using thumb drives), in which, most data, such as image files, PDF files, and word processing files are stored, for access between different systems, with data files particular to application software versions, such as, as mentioned, alpine configuration files, that live in the home partition, kept in the home partition specific to the operating system version. Also, using external SSD drives, appropriately partitioned, aids portability between operating systems on the same computer, and, between computers. But, I believe that sharing a home partition between different versions of an operating system, is too troublesome, and, more trouble than it is worth. Of course, other people's opinions may differ from mine. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) ..
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 04/21/2022 08:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 8:21 AM Richard Owlett wrote: I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf [ https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html ] Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? My approach to this is to create (and use) a separate Partition, which I call /bighome. When I create users (I use several, based on Function), I separately create a Directory on /bighome, and change its ownership to the User. Each Partition has its own /home, but mainly for the .dot files. Anything that is likely to be long term is on /bighome. This /bighome has survived from Squeeze to Bookworm, as well as a number of Ubuntu releases. Sounds interesting. Do you have multiple versions of Debian installed at the same time or have you upgraded a single copy of Debian several times? Hope this helps. Kenneth Parker
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 2022-04-21 16:34 UTC+0200, Richard Owlett wrote: > My browser is a SeaMonkey stand alone executable. There is such a thing? The SeaMonkey I know, consists of many different files in a directory, not one "stand alone executable". And it will store it's settings and stuff in a profile directory under /home. -- http://www.cb-fraggle.de
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 04/21/2022 07:59 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 07:03:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? Desktop environments That could be a problem. I use MATE. I don't know where it stores what. Or even it mutually compatible will the install procedure over write data I created? I suspect it would and this machine doesn't have the disk capacity to be safe. I've got a spare SSD with enough space to experiment with. and some programs (libre office, I avoid that beast. browsers, My browser is a SeaMonkey stand alone executable. that kind of stuff) putting their user configs in your home might get confused should you plan to change back-and-forth. Most of the time they expect to upgrade their configs, but not necessarily to downgrade. The OS itself should be fine, though. With enough thought I can have the desired effect even though the topography will be very different. Thanks for the warning. Cheers
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On 04/21/2022 07:34 AM, Dan Ritter wrote: Richard Owlett wrote: I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? There are edge cases, but nothing major. For example, if you write lots of interpreted programs, you may discover that a Debian-supplied language has been upgraded -- say, Python 2 to Python 3 -- and some programs need to be fixed. I don't write much code and just about all of it is shell commands. IIRC any program I put under /home is self-contained w.o. external dependencies. If you have hardcoded paths to /usr/bin, note that you may have errors because those programs are now in /bin. I assume any problem there cause things to come to a screeching halt. IOW existence of a problem will be obvious. It is possible, if you are careful, to share /home between different operating systems. Not just different Linux distros, but BSDs and other UNIXoids. -dsr-
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 8:21 AM Richard Owlett wrote: > I am not upgrading in place. > > I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a > different partition. > > I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on > its current partition. > > I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf > [ > https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html > ] > > Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on > both? > My approach to this is to create (and use) a separate Partition, which I call /bighome. When I create users (I use several, based on Function), I separately create a Directory on /bighome, and change its ownership to the User. Each Partition has its own /home, but mainly for the .dot files. Anything that is likely to be long term is on /bighome. This /bighome has survived from Squeeze to Bookworm, as well as a number of Ubuntu releases. Hope this helps. Kenneth Parker
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 07:03:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > I am not upgrading in place. > > I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a > different partition. > > I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its > current partition. > > I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf > [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] > > Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? Desktop environments and some programs (libre office, browsers, that kind of stuff) putting their user configs in your home might get confused should you plan to change back-and-forth. Most of the time they expect to upgrade their configs, but not necessarily to downgrade. The OS itself should be fine, though. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
Richard Owlett wrote: > I am not upgrading in place. > > I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a > different partition. > > I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its > current partition. > > I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf > [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] > > Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? There are edge cases, but nothing major. For example, if you write lots of interpreted programs, you may discover that a Debian-supplied language has been upgraded -- say, Python 2 to Python 3 -- and some programs need to be fixed. If you have hardcoded paths to /usr/bin, note that you may have errors because those programs are now in /bin. It is possible, if you are careful, to share /home between different operating systems. Not just different Linux distros, but BSDs and other UNIXoids. -dsr-
Re: Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 07:03:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > I am not upgrading in place. > > I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a > different partition. > > I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its > current partition. > > I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf > [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] > > Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? > > TIA > Hi Richard, Are you intending to keep two or more systems running with shared home? That will be significantly harder than separate home directories. Upgrading in place should work - 9.13 -> 10.12 -> 11.3 is certainly feasible. [Do 9 - 10 and then 10 - 11 reading both sets of release notes.] All best, as ever, Andy Cater >
Changing from Debian 9.13 to Debian 11.3
I am not upgrading in place. I currently have Debian 9.13 installed on one partition with /home on a different partition. I will install Debian 11.3 on a fresh partition and have /home remain on its current partition. I'm aware of cautions about upgrading in-place cf [https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html] Are there things to be aware of when using the same /home partition on both? TIA
