Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/11/08 20:47, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
[snip]
> 
> I do think that this whole "whatever is profitable is moral" mentality

"*Whatever*" is too strong a word, just as you called me out on the
use of the word "all".

> to be strongly USian, but certainly not unique to them. It seems
> common amongst other conquering, colonialist, warring nations.

China and Russia seem is also to have become aggressively
acquisitive, but China hasn't been expansionist in, what, 600 years?

> Let's not talk about the common mentality of my native Mexico, where
> we're like crabs in a bucket. Ever seen a bunch of crabs trying to get
> out of a bucket, stepping over everyone else, the ones on top being
> dragged by the ones on the bottom, and none of them getting out? Yeah,
> let's not talk about that. :-)

Very culturally stratified.  But many of those of the lower strata
who (even if they may not realize it) have the "get up and go"
mentality have come up north to work *hard*, so that their families
back south can acquire more "stuff" (even if that stuff is only more
food and better clothes).

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/11/08 19:49, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:31:48AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old
>> virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a
>> banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".
>  
> 
> Why does your crystal ball work as a mirror?

That, and "Taco Bell won the Franchise Wars." are quotes from the
movie /Demolition Man/.  A very good light action-comedy.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/11/08 19:43, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:27:32AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/11/08 06:57, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
>> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
>> The rest vote Green...
> That's not what the science books say.
 Don't be dense.
>>> You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
>>> yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged. 
>> I don't think that you and I are going to agree about this.
>>
> Greed will be our downfall.
 Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
 impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
>>> No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
>>> which is plain wrong. 
>> Well, ok, you're correct.  "All" is too big of a word.  "Most",
>> then.  And a good number of those who think they aren't, could
>> easily become greedy with a little influence.
> 
> I think its a cultural thing.  Perhaps you mean that greed is ingrained
> in most Americans.  The drive for individual happiness instead of
> societal happiness is one of the key differences between Canadian
> culture, as a whole, and American culture, as a whole.  Perhaps you find
> a difference east/west within the USA; there is in Canada.  Eastern
> Canada has more in common (including relatives) with Eastern US than
> with Western Canada.  Alberta is more akin to Texas and the Gulph States
> than any other Canadian province.  B.C, is more related to the West
> Coast States than to the Maritimes even though they are both on the
> ocean.
> 
> Is green ingrained in all of those cultures?  No.  In Canada, it is most
> ingrained in Alberta culture and least in Newfoundland's culture.
> (excluding the areas of Canada north of 60 which are a world apart.  95%
> of Canadians live within 200 miles of the US boarder).  Also excuding
> Toronto since its a world unto itself as well with Canada's richest and
> poorest citizens.

You'd also think that it would not be found in family-venerating
Confucian countries, and farming-mentality societies where "the nail
that sticks out gets hammered down".

But China and Japan put lie to that.

So I'd say that the *lack* of desire to gain as much as possible for
one's self or family is culturally ingrained, but that once (the
majority of) people are exposed to the reasonable possibility of
material gain, that that urge for acquisitiveness kicks in.

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Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/12/08 03:34, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
[snip]
> 
> As for OpenVMS, it is still actively developed and supported by HP.
> We have several OpenVMS systems where I work.  I still next to the guy
> that supports all of them. ;-)

We've got 7 of various sizes where I work.  Used to be 9, but the
apps on it were ported to a pair of Linux boxes.  The apps on the
bigger boxes will eventually be ported to either Linux or HPUX.

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Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Christofer C. Bell]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  I had a look at the wikipedia article for OpenVMS.  It seems that the
>  Open is a misnomer.
>
>  Is anybody working on an OpenOpenVMS?

There is a community effort to duplicate OpenVMS on x86 hardware
called FreeVMS [1].  It's not yet suitable for use in production, or
even as an "experimental" VMS system and development is slow (the
community is very very small).  However, it may be something you'd
like to look at and perhaps contribute to.

As for OpenVMS, it is still actively developed and supported by HP.
We have several OpenVMS systems where I work.  I still next to the guy
that supports all of them. ;-)

[1] http://www.freevms.org/

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Chris


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

On 11/05/2008, Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  The drive for individual happiness instead of
>  societal happiness is one of the key differences between Canadian
>  culture, as a whole, and American culture, as a whole.

That bunch of commie, tree-hugging, bilingual, polycultural, liberal,
flower power, hippies from Montréal were the ones who first introduced
me to Debian, so there may be something to what you say. Matter of
fact, when I left free software-friendly Mtl and went to other parts
of the world, I was surprised to see that not everyone embraced free
software as much as the Montrealers. I had my innocence taken from me
by the rest of the world. Tragically.

I do think that this whole "whatever is profitable is moral" mentality
to be strongly USian, but certainly not unique to them. It seems
common amongst other conquering, colonialist, warring nations.

Let's not talk about the common mentality of my native Mexico, where
we're like crabs in a bucket. Ever seen a bunch of crabs trying to get
out of a bucket, stepping over everyone else, the ones on top being
dragged by the ones on the bottom, and none of them getting out? Yeah,
let's not talk about that. :-)

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:31:48AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> 
> I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old
> virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a
> banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".
 

Why does your crystal ball work as a mirror?

:)

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 11:27:32AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/11/08 06:57, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
> >>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>  I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
>  just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
>  The rest vote Green...
> >>> That's not what the science books say.
> >> Don't be dense.
> > 
> > You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
> > yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged. 
> 
> I don't think that you and I are going to agree about this.
> 
> >>> Greed will be our downfall.
> >> Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
> >> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
> > 
> > No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
> > which is plain wrong. 
> 
> Well, ok, you're correct.  "All" is too big of a word.  "Most",
> then.  And a good number of those who think they aren't, could
> easily become greedy with a little influence.

I think its a cultural thing.  Perhaps you mean that greed is ingrained
in most Americans.  The drive for individual happiness instead of
societal happiness is one of the key differences between Canadian
culture, as a whole, and American culture, as a whole.  Perhaps you find
a difference east/west within the USA; there is in Canada.  Eastern
Canada has more in common (including relatives) with Eastern US than
with Western Canada.  Alberta is more akin to Texas and the Gulph States
than any other Canadian province.  B.C, is more related to the West
Coast States than to the Maritimes even though they are both on the
ocean.

Is green ingrained in all of those cultures?  No.  In Canada, it is most
ingrained in Alberta culture and least in Newfoundland's culture.
(excluding the areas of Canada north of 60 which are a world apart.  95%
of Canadians live within 200 miles of the US boarder).  Also excuding
Toronto since its a world unto itself as well with Canada's richest and
poorest citizens.

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/11/08 08:29, Curt Howland wrote:
>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>> The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.
> 
> Taco Bell won the Franchise Wars.

I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old
virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a
banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiener".

> Which certainly clears out _my_ swap space, I'll tell you.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/11/08 06:57, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
 I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
 just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
 The rest vote Green...
>>> That's not what the science books say.
>> Don't be dense.
> 
> You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
> yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged. 

I don't think that you and I are going to agree about this.

>>> Greed will be our downfall.
>> Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
>> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
> 
> No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
> which is plain wrong. 

Well, ok, you're correct.  "All" is too big of a word.  "Most",
then.  And a good number of those who think they aren't, could
easily become greedy with a little influence.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/11/08 08:42, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 09:15:10PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/10/08 17:28, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:42:11PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
 On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> [snip]
> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
 and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
 security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
 security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
 level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
 of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
 the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
 reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
 the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).
>>> I'll have to look at OpenVMS.  Is it still maintained?
>> Sure.  HP still makes lots of money off of it.
>>
>>>  Will it run on
>>> my old 486?
>> Well, no.  But you might find a VAXstation of similar power on Ebay.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> I had a look at the wikipedia article for OpenVMS.  It seems that the
> Open is a misnomer.

It uses open, published, standard protocols and APIs.  Thus, by a
very reasonable definition, it is "open".

And the source code is available, too, but I'm not sure if you have
to be a VMS licensee.

> Is anybody working on an OpenOpenVMS?

http://www.systella.fr/~bertrand/FreeVMS/indexGB.html

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Curt Howland]

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> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.

Taco Bell won the Franchise Wars.



Which certainly clears out _my_ swap space, I'll tell you.




- -- 
Treason! http://blog.mises.org/archives/007926.asp

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 09:15:10PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/10/08 17:28, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:42:11PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> >> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> >>> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
> >>> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
> >> and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
> >> security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
> >> security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
> >> level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
> >> of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
> >> the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
> >> reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
> >> the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).
> > 
> > I'll have to look at OpenVMS.  Is it still maintained?
> 
> Sure.  HP still makes lots of money off of it.
> 
> >  Will it run on
> > my old 486?
> 
> Well, no.  But you might find a VAXstation of similar power on Ebay.

Thanks,

I had a look at the wikipedia article for OpenVMS.  It seems that the
Open is a misnomer.

Is anybody working on an OpenOpenVMS?

:)

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:04:33AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
> >> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
> >> The rest vote Green...
> > 
> > That's not what the science books say.
> 
> Don't be dense.

You have mangled the phrase "money makes the world go round" to suit
yourself. Confusing revenue with profit is not to be encouraged. 

> > Greed will be our downfall.
> 
> Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.

No, its not "ingrained" in *all* humans, that's a blatant generalisation
which is plain wrong. 

-- 
Chris.
==
"One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned
   at the stake while the votes were being counted."  -- Thomas B. Reed


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/10/08 17:40, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/09/08 18:21, Nate Duehr wrote:
>>> Real freedom = BSD.
>> The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.
> 
> How do you figure?  

It allows people (in this case, corporations) to keep their code
fixes and good ideas to themselves.  Thus, the Unix Vendors fight
amongst themselves, claiming that Unix & C are portable, while
anyone who's tried to port from SunOS to OSF/1 quickly put lie to
that myth.

OTOH, while the GPL allows projects to fork, it makes available the
source code, so everyone gets the benefits of everyone else's hard
work.  (Which is why the hardware and middleware vendors *love*
Linux, but no Linux vendor will ever be nearly as wealthy as MSFT.)

- --
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Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/10/08 17:28, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:42:11PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
>> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> 
>>> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
>>> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
>> and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
>> security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
>> security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
>> level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
>> of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
>> the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
>> reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
>> the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).
> 
> I'll have to look at OpenVMS.  Is it still maintained?

Sure.  HP still makes lots of money off of it.

>  Will it run on
> my old 486?

Well, no.  But you might find a VAXstation of similar power on Ebay.

- --
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We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/10/08 19:35, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/11 Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I've never even seen OSX.  I think I saw something recently that someone
>> said was a mac, looked like a gorilla's laptop minus the keyboard; I
>> guess that happened when NeXT bought the Apple brand and true Apple was
>> an endagered fruit.
>>
>> If OSX is based on *NIX, shouldn't it have vi, or is there no CLI?
>>
>> Doug.
>>
> 
> I'm near certain that there is a terminal application, but I couldn't
> find it.

Sure.  I've used it 3 or 4 times on colleagues mmachines.  IIRC,
it's simply called "Terminal".

>   Another poster on this list contacted me off list to let me
> know that OS-X does in fact come with VIM preinstalled.

And bash, Python & Perl.  Many others are a Google away.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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=THqN
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Christofer C. Bell]

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2008/5/11 Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > I've never even seen OSX.  I think I saw something recently that someone
>  > said was a mac, looked like a gorilla's laptop minus the keyboard; I
>  > guess that happened when NeXT bought the Apple brand and true Apple was
>  > an endagered fruit.
>  >
>  > If OSX is based on *NIX, shouldn't it have vi, or is there no CLI?
>  >
>  > Doug.
>  >
>
>  I'm near certain that there is a terminal application, but I couldn't
>  find it. Another poster on this list contacted me off list to let me
>  know that OS-X does in fact come with VIM preinstalled.

/Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ which vim
/usr/bin/vim
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ uname -a
Darwin persephone.local 9.2.2 Darwin Kernel Version 9.2.2: Tue Mar  4
21:17:34 PST 2008; root:xnu-1228.4.31~1/RELEASE_I386 i386
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$

MacBook Pro running Mac OS X 10.5.2.

-- 
Chris


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/11 Douglas A. Tutty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I've never even seen OSX.  I think I saw something recently that someone
> said was a mac, looked like a gorilla's laptop minus the keyboard; I
> guess that happened when NeXT bought the Apple brand and true Apple was
> an endagered fruit.
>
> If OSX is based on *NIX, shouldn't it have vi, or is there no CLI?
>
> Doug.
>

I'm near certain that there is a terminal application, but I couldn't
find it. Another poster on this list contacted me off list to let me
know that OS-X does in fact come with VIM preinstalled.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:42:11PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On 05/09/08 07:33, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > > I use Linux because it is the most
> > > stable and secure OS available in my opinion. 
> > I'm sure the {Free|Open}BSD crowds would more than quibble with you.
> 
> also the NetBSD ones

Well, I compared the release dates of fixes required by all distros
(e.g. a fix to OpenSSH or a paricular perl version, or even to libc) for
quite a while:  Debian and FreeBSD came out within a day of each other;
OpenBSD, if was even vulnerable given the tweaks they did to gcc, had a
fix testing in -current very quickly but full testing (enough for them
to say that the fix met their high standards) took a few days more to
show up on their patch list; it took far longer (weeks) or never for
some fixes to show up on NetBSD's patch page.  This was one big factor
in my choosing OpenBSD for my tiny boxes even though I don't need a lot
of the stuff in OpenBSD's base install.

> 
> > And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
> > DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
> 
> and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
> security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
> security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
> level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
> of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
> the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
> reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
> the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).

I'll have to look at OpenVMS.  Is it still maintained?  Will it run on
my old 486?

> But the point of the original phrase probably is: the most stable and
> secure OS available among the ones that whoever is speaking is able to
> use to get the work done.

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 10:02:24PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> I just looked at an OS-X machine for the first time. It costs about
> >> four times what a comparable machine that I build myself would cost.
> >
> > But it's more polished than GNOME or KDE, and probably better for
> > "regular users"/
> >
> 
> Maybe. I couldn't figure out the desktop shortcuts (Ctrl-F4 does not
> close windows) and it doesn't seem to come with a text editor (only a
> 'rich text' editor). The salesman did not know the keyboard shortcut
> either, and did not understand the concept of a text editor as opposed
> to a word processor. The interface was sure pretty though, and had
> some nice effects. I loved the keyboard to death, and I suppose that a
> one-button mouse I could get used to. I don't use the mouse so much.

I've never even seen OSX.  I think I saw something recently that someone
said was a mac, looked like a gorilla's laptop minus the keyboard; I
guess that happened when NeXT bought the Apple brand and true Apple was
an endagered fruit.

If OSX is based on *NIX, shouldn't it have vi, or is there no CLI?

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 11:06:39PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Jordi Guti??rrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>  Lots of proprietary  software is available for Linux.
> >
> > Yeah, it's a tragedy. Takers of code who don't give back code. :-(
> >
> 
> That's why the GPL was written. The BSD (or was it MIT? I forget)
> license permitted Apple to do exactly what they did.

It's the BSD.  Also, apparently if you install unix services for windows
you get a CLI where you can run strings on all the windows binaries and
see all the BSD licenses.  

The counter argument is that if that code was under GPL instead of BSD,
then windows and apple would have developed their own code stack and
implementation of TCP/IP and we would be trying to interoperate with
them.  

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/09/08 18:21, Nate Duehr wrote:
> > Real freedom = BSD.
> 
> The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.

How do you figure?  

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

On 10/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx

Alright, corollary to Godwin's law: invoking communists. The thread is
dead. Long live the thread!

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/10 Damon L. Chesser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
>> impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
>
> Remove the profit, should work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Damon L. Chesser]

Ron Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
  

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 05/09/08 18:21, Nate Duehr wrote:
[snip]
  

Real freedom = BSD.


The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.

  

Freedom with an agenda = GPL.


Everyone has an agenda.  Always.  You've just got to figure out what
the agenda is.

  

Apple used what was available to them, and continues to do so to make a
profit.  If that's wrong, outlaw profits.  Sheesh.


I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
The rest vote Green...
  

That's not what the science books say.



Don't be dense.

  

Greed will be our downfall.



Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.
  

Remove the profit, should work.


--
Damon L. Chesser
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dchesser


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/10/08 10:07, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 05/09/08 18:21, Nate Duehr wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> Real freedom = BSD.
>> The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.
>>
>>> Freedom with an agenda = GPL.
>> Everyone has an agenda.  Always.  You've just got to figure out what
>> the agenda is.
>>
>>> Apple used what was available to them, and continues to do so to make a
>>> profit.  If that's wrong, outlaw profits.  Sheesh.
>> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
>> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
>> The rest vote Green...
> 
> That's not what the science books say.

Don't be dense.

> Greed will be our downfall.

Greed is ingrained into all humans.  Getting rid of it is as
impossible as preventing the earth from spinning.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:37:40PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 05/09/08 18:21, Nate Duehr wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > Real freedom = BSD.
> 
> The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.
> 
> > Freedom with an agenda = GPL.
> 
> Everyone has an agenda.  Always.  You've just got to figure out what
> the agenda is.
> 
> > Apple used what was available to them, and continues to do so to make a
> > profit.  If that's wrong, outlaw profits.  Sheesh.
> 
> I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
> just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
> The rest vote Green...

That's not what the science books say. Greed will be our downfall.

-- 
Chris.
==
"One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned
   at the stake while the votes were being counted."  -- Thomas B. Reed


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 18:21, Nate Duehr wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Real freedom = BSD.

The BSD License allowed the Unix Wars to take place.

> Freedom with an agenda = GPL.

Everyone has an agenda.  Always.  You've just got to figure out what
the agenda is.

> Apple used what was available to them, and continues to do so to make a
> profit.  If that's wrong, outlaw profits.  Sheesh.

I'm sure there are those *cough*Paul Johnson*cough* who'd love to do
just that, most of us know that profit makes the world go 'round.
The rest vote Green...

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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=i8+0
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Nate Duehr]

Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:


Yes Apple does apparently give back some code... It looks khtml or
Webkit or whatever the marketable term nowadays is does indeed have
free Apple code in it, even if they gave it back in ways that were
difficult for free developers to adopt and took a long time to
actually find their way back to KDE. I've never quite understood what
is the difference between Mach, XNU, and Darwin, where the kernel ends
and where the operating system begins, and just exactly what is it
that Apple took and gave back when it comes down to that. What irks me
is that I get the impression that Apple takes a lot more code than it
gives back and it uses unfair practices like the GPL exception in CUPS
that's just for them only.



A friend jokingly says, "Don't hate the Player baby, hate the Game!"



For me, that GPL exception and all the non-free software they release
point to even murkier practices under the surface. If that's what they
let us see, what are they hiding from us? I don't hate Apple (nor
Microsoft for that matter), but I do think it's likely that they'll be
the next monopolists. First IBM, then Microsoft, now Apple. I guess
it's time to change masters again. This does not make me happy.


Ooh, the Big Conspiracy Theory comes out.  Whatever.

Build something better.

Same argument as the previous "Master", and Linux as a whole, still 
hasn't really done it yet.


(I don't expect it will, either, because "better" to the average 
consumer and "better" to a person that likes to tinker with Linux are 
two distinctly different things, and most Linux hackers aren't 
interested in building the former definition of "better".  Some are, but 
not all.)


Real freedom = BSD.
Freedom with an agenda = GPL.

Apple used what was available to them, and continues to do so to make a 
profit.  If that's wrong, outlaw profits.  Sheesh.



Nate


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/10 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  I really hope that this doesn't turn into a flame war. I respect your
>>  ideals. Please respect mine.
>
> Uhm.
>
> And what exactly are those ideals of yours? I haven't seen you express
> any. Wanting good code isn't an ideal, it's just the minimum
> expectation. Wanting freedom is an ideal.
>

I want a car that gets good gas mileage, good performance, and does
not cost much. I bought a 2008 Ford Focus.

I want a phone that is easy to use, supports simple calendar
functions, and has voice memo. I bought a Nokia 6288.

I want an OS that is stable, secure, and is easy to use. I use Debian.

I don't know whether or not my Focus pollutes. I'm certain that it
pollutes less than a Jeep, but the Prius folks would certainly hang
me. I don't care if my phone is GSM, TDMA, or CDMA. I don't even know
what the differences are. I don't care to see the source code of my
OS. I wouldn't even know what it meant if I did. That fact that I
_can_ see it if I want is nice and makes me feel more secure, but as
we've seen with the trojans being distributed in some official Firefox
builds, the fact that the code _can_ be reviewed does not mean that
the code _is_ being reviewed. I am grateful to the FOSS community that
they continually improve and build upon what has been done. I have
triaged many bugs, and filed many bugs, and files many RFE's which
have been implemented (not with Debian, but with KDE and Mozilla). But
that's not the reason that I use Debian. The reason that I use Debian
is what I said before: stability and security.

My ideal is studying and feeding my family. Debian lets me do that
better than any other OS that I've tried. Debian also fits your ideal
that software should be free. That's great. My Ford Focus fits some
people's ideal that cars should not excessively pollute. That's great.
My phone probably fits someone's ideal of something important. That's
great too.

I do not know if your intention in provoking me is to understand my
reasoning (possibly), to convince me to share your ideal (more
likely), or to troll (unlikely). Let me know what your intention is so
that I can better formulate my replies. Assuming that you are not
trolling (I don't think that you are), then know that I actually enjoy
conversation with intelegent people who make me think. Just don't get
started on politics.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

On 09/05/2008, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Do you *know* whether Apple doesn't pass anything back to Darwin?
>
> Well, they made a GPL exception *just for themselves only* with CUPS.

Allow me to qualify that a bit more.

Yes Apple does apparently give back some code... It looks khtml or
Webkit or whatever the marketable term nowadays is does indeed have
free Apple code in it, even if they gave it back in ways that were
difficult for free developers to adopt and took a long time to
actually find their way back to KDE. I've never quite understood what
is the difference between Mach, XNU, and Darwin, where the kernel ends
and where the operating system begins, and just exactly what is it
that Apple took and gave back when it comes down to that. What irks me
is that I get the impression that Apple takes a lot more code than it
gives back and it uses unfair practices like the GPL exception in CUPS
that's just for them only.

For me, that GPL exception and all the non-free software they release
point to even murkier practices under the surface. If that's what they
let us see, what are they hiding from us? I don't hate Apple (nor
Microsoft for that matter), but I do think it's likely that they'll be
the next monopolists. First IBM, then Microsoft, now Apple. I guess
it's time to change masters again. This does not make me happy.

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

On 09/05/2008, Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 05/09/08 14:51, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
>  > On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >>  Lots of proprietary  software is available for Linux.
>  >
>  > Yeah, it's a tragedy. Takers of code who don't give back code. :-(
>  >
>  > Apple, I'm looking at you.
>
>
> Do you *know* whether Apple doesn't pass anything back to Darwin?

Well, they made a GPL exception *just for themselves only* with CUPS.

If that's not an uneven playing field, I don't know what is.

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 15:06, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>  Lots of proprietary  software is available for Linux.
>> Yeah, it's a tragedy. Takers of code who don't give back code. :-(
>>
> 
> That's why the GPL was written. The BSD (or was it MIT? I forget)
> license permitted Apple to do exactly what they did.

BSD.

- --
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Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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=M/sX
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 14:51, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  Lots of proprietary  software is available for Linux.
> 
> Yeah, it's a tragedy. Takers of code who don't give back code. :-(
> 
> Apple, I'm looking at you.

Do you *know* whether Apple doesn't pass anything back to Darwin?

- --
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Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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=L2P8
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Andrei Popescu]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 01:38:33PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Paul Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Thu May 8 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> >> What programs does she use in Windows? Have you not found Linux
> >> equivalents? Have you written to the vendors and asked about a Linux
> >> port? Tell me which programs they are and maybe I can suggest
> >> something.
> >
> > Adobe, photoshop Elements... She really doesn't like Gimp. And my scanner (
> > Epson Perfection 4180 ) never worked under Linux.
> 
> Here is the page to Epson. I just contacted them. I suggest that you
> also contact them:
> http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&infoType=EmailForm&oid=41625&prodoid=46253281
> 
> To anybody else still following this thread, please write to Epson and
> let them know that we need them to support Debian, or Linux in
> general. They support our OS <-> we buy their products.

My mom just got an Epson Stylus DX9400F all-in-one. It took some time, 
but eventually I got everything working (with drivers from 
www.avasys.jp, but you can find them via the Epson site).

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  I would very happily pay for Linux had that  been the situation.
>
> What does money have to do with freedom? I paid good money for the
> privilege to have Linux on my machine.
>

Nothing, that's the point I was making. The GP said that he needs
Photoshop. I said 'write to Adobe'. Then you asked about freedom. I
understand that you have ideals and I respect you for them, but I
don't share your vision. I don't hate Microsoft. I don't use their
products because I find them inferior to the current FOSS
alternatives. I don't hate Apple. I don't use their products because I
find them grossly expensive and inferior to the current FOSS
alternatives. I don't hate Commodore. I don't use their products
because they are 20 years outdated. How I wish I could get Lynx and an
SSH client on a C-128 today. I'd never touch another mouse.

I really hope that this doesn't turn into a flame war. I respect your
ideals. Please respect mine.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  Lots of proprietary  software is available for Linux.
>
> Yeah, it's a tragedy. Takers of code who don't give back code. :-(
>

That's why the GPL was written. The BSD (or was it MIT? I forget)
license permitted Apple to do exactly what they did.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Lots of proprietary  software is available for Linux.

Yeah, it's a tragedy. Takers of code who don't give back code. :-(

Apple, I'm looking at you.

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I would very happily pay for Linux had that  been the situation.

What does money have to do with freedom? I paid good money for the
privilege to have Linux on my machine.

- Jordi G. H.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I just looked at an OS-X machine for the first time. It costs about
>> four times what a comparable machine that I build myself would cost.
>
> But it's more polished than GNOME or KDE, and probably better for
> "regular users"/
>

Maybe. I couldn't figure out the desktop shortcuts (Ctrl-F4 does not
close windows) and it doesn't seem to come with a text editor (only a
'rich text' editor). The salesman did not know the keyboard shortcut
either, and did not understand the concept of a text editor as opposed
to a word processor. The interface was sure pretty though, and had
some nice effects. I loved the keyboard to death, and I suppose that a
one-button mouse I could get used to. I don't use the mouse so much.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 13:28, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>> I'll stick with Debian. I don't need to get myself into anything even
>>> more obscure than I currently use. In Israel, almost noone had even
>>> heard of Linux. Except for the few lucky souls who drool over compiz
>>> and then beg me to install Ubuntu for them.
>> If they want eye-candy, OSX is more than adequate.  And has a
>> no-username mode for those who can't comprehend multi-user, or why
>> "my computer would need such a silly feature".
> 
> I just looked at an OS-X machine for the first time. It costs about
> four times what a comparable machine that I build myself would cost.

But it's more polished than GNOME or KDE, and probably better for
"regular users"/

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I'll stick with Debian. I don't need to get myself into anything even
>> more obscure than I currently use. In Israel, almost noone had even
>> heard of Linux. Except for the few lucky souls who drool over compiz
>> and then beg me to install Ubuntu for them.
>
> If they want eye-candy, OSX is more than adequate.  And has a
> no-username mode for those who can't comprehend multi-user, or why
> "my computer would need such a silly feature".

I just looked at an OS-X machine for the first time. It costs about
four times what a comparable machine that I build myself would cost.

 I'm speechless.
>>> Were you born mute, or was it caused by an accident?
>>
>> That is a dangerous comment to send. Try to guess what my disability
>> is. I'm not offended, but there are those who won't find that funny.
>
> And that's a perfect example of the political correctness which is
> one of the factors sending western civilization down history's crapper.

I'm not Western. But I do agree with the argument that the political
correctness does go to far, too often. Like said, I wasn't offended.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 11:01, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> It should.  If they hadn't added a Linux compatibility layer, they'd
>> have been even deader than Netcraft says they are...
> 
> I'll stick with Debian. I don't need to get myself into anything even
> more obscure than I currently use. In Israel, almost noone had even
> heard of Linux. Except for the few lucky souls who drool over compiz
> and then beg me to install Ubuntu for them.

If they want eye-candy, OSX is more than adequate.  And has a
no-username mode for those who can't comprehend multi-user, or why
"my computer would need such a silly feature".

>>> I'm speechless.
>> Were you born mute, or was it caused by an accident?
> 
> That is a dangerous comment to send. Try to guess what my disability
> is. I'm not offended, but there are those who won't find that funny.

And that's a perfect example of the political correctness which is
one of the factors sending western civilization down history's crapper.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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51ruUtxIUfc01oxmzDAJIXk=
=0XVh
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Paul Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Adobe, photoshop Elements... She really doesn't like Gimp. And my scanner (
> Epson Perfection 4180 ) never worked under Linux.
>

This is what I got back from Epson:

"""
Thank you for contacting the Epson Connection.

While Epson makes drivers for our products in Windows and Macintosh
environments, we do not have any information on drivers which might work
with Unix/Linux platforms, or companies that might design such software.

Third party Unix/Linux solutions for Epson products can be found from the
following website link.

http://www.epsondevelopers.com

WARNING: All information available from www.epsondevelopers.com is not
supported by the Epson Connection, and offers no support of any kind.
"""

I suggest that other list members contact them and let them know that
even if Linux software is free (as in beer), we still pay for our
hardware. If they want our business, they must support our systems.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> It should.  If they hadn't added a Linux compatibility layer, they'd
> have been even deader than Netcraft says they are...

I'll stick with Debian. I don't need to get myself into anything even
more obscure than I currently use. In Israel, almost noone had even
heard of Linux. Except for the few lucky souls who drool over compiz
and then beg me to install Ubuntu for them.

>> I'm speechless.
>
> Were you born mute, or was it caused by an accident?

That is a dangerous comment to send. Try to guess what my disability
is. I'm not offended, but there are those who won't find that funny.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 09:41, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>> I understand that many people use Linux because of the freedom it
>>> brings us. Personally, I don't. I use Linux because it is the most
>>> stable and secure OS available in my opinion. The fact freedom factor
>> I'm sure the {Free|Open}BSD crowds would more than quibble with you.
> 
> I'm certain they would. I should probably look into BSD and see if my
> applications run on that system, and that it supports my current
> hardware.

It should.  If they hadn't added a Linux compatibility layer, they'd
have been even deader than Netcraft says they are...

>   Thanks for the tip. Though, I must add that even if another
> system is more secure than Debian, Debian is 'good enough' for me.
> 
>> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
>> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.
> 
> I'm speechless.

Were you born mute, or was it caused by an accident?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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xNu8V4hFGKkEFYrl8tJysBI=
=5V0v
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Dotan Cohen writes:
>> I use Linux because it is the most stable and secure OS available in my
>> opinion. The fact freedom factor is just a bonus for me.
>
> Has it occurred to you that there might be a connection there?

I am more than certain that there is a connection. It took hundreds of
thousands of man-hours to get GNU/Linux to the point where it is now,
from a security and stability standpoint. And it is improving all the
time. All out in the open.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[NN_il_Confusionario]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 07:43:00AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/09/08 07:33, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > I use Linux because it is the most
> > stable and secure OS available in my opinion. 
> I'm sure the {Free|Open}BSD crowds would more than quibble with you.

also the NetBSD ones

> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.

and VMS, unlike unix, since the beginning was planned with solid
security in mind. In the times where classification into A,B,C,D
security made sense, there were VMS B-certified machines (the maximum
level, except for the lack of a formal mathemetical proof of that level
of security). And Digital never had to hide the code from the eyes of
the world, so that everybody could know the quality of the code (any
reference to proprietary software widely used today, and which is not of
the same level of quality as VMS, is purely wanted).

But the point of the original phrase probably is: the most stable and
secure OS available among the ones that whoever is speaking is able to
use to get the work done.

For example, if no realtime version of VMS exists (and I suspect that it
does not exists), qnx should be preferred to VMS for realtime tasks
(anyone producing atomic enegy @home?)

-- 
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Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale.
Informatica=bomba: intelligente solo per gli stupidi che ci credono.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I understand that many people use Linux because of the freedom it
>> brings us. Personally, I don't. I use Linux because it is the most
>> stable and secure OS available in my opinion. The fact freedom factor
>
> I'm sure the {Free|Open}BSD crowds would more than quibble with you.

I'm certain they would. I should probably look into BSD and see if my
applications run on that system, and that it supports my current
hardware. Thanks for the tip. Though, I must add that even if another
system is more secure than Debian, Debian is 'good enough' for me.

> And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
> DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.

I'm speechless.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[John Hasler]

Dotan Cohen writes:
> I use Linux because it is the most stable and secure OS available in my
> opinion. The fact freedom factor is just a bonus for me.

Has it occurred to you that there might be a connection there?
-- 
John Hasler


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/09/08 07:33, Dotan Cohen wrote:
[snip]
> I understand that many people use Linux because of the freedom it
> brings us. Personally, I don't. I use Linux because it is the most
> stable and secure OS available in my opinion. The fact freedom factor

I'm sure the {Free|Open}BSD crowds would more than quibble with you.

And a workstation running OpenVMS was considered so unhackable at
DEFCON9 that it wasn't allowed back the next year.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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UGs8tjBOL1m6GFNuRug6W+0=
=r4CW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2008-05-01 22:29:59, schrieb andy:
> Perhaps not. However, my uptime is only 7 days with one user. Yet it 
> takes several seconds for my Xfce4 (light and fast) to respond. I am 
> unable to load a larger amount of RAM, and my system is sluggish even 
> with 1GB of RAM. What is a poor Deb Lenny user to do? SWAP seemed like a 
> logical culprit.
> The virtual memory is some 798MB of 980MB and I have only KSCD, KMail, 
> Konsole. OO.o Writer, IceApe, IceDove, and this IceDove composer windows 
> open.

I do not know, what you do, but on my VIA EPIA LN1EAG  I  have  only
1 GByte of memory and a 4 GByte "SanDisk Extereme IV" an where I can not
have any SWAP partitions.

From a cold start up to "wdm" login screen (I use  fvwm)  it  need  only
arround 22 seconds...  OpenOffice start now faster then on my  old  "AMD
Sempron 2200+" with 2 GByte of memory...

> When I double click within Xfce on the /home directory icon, there is a 
> noticeable lag between clicking and a response. What causes this? Must I 
> reboot every few days so as to release memory to allow my system to be 
> more responsive? This isn't the GNU/Linux I know and love from my 
> Slackware days. What is wrong with my configuration?

How many SWAP do you use?

Do you have considered to compile your kernel with 4 GByte  support  and
PAE (some mchines need it even if they have only 1 Gbyte of  memory)  to
get the rest of your 1 GByte memory?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 09/05/2008, Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I've written to Adobe in the past asking about Photoshop and Photoshop
>>  Elements. I suggest that you write to them as well:
>>  http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform
>
> What's the wishlist? To make Adobe give us Photoshop and Photoshop
> Elements under a free license?

No, to make the programs available under Linux. Lots of proprietary
software is available for Linux. Google Earth, Opera, Skype, the list
goes on. There is no contradiction between a FOSS OS and proprietary
applications.

> Personally, that's all that that's enough for me. I don't like
> non-free software. This Intel wireless firmware blob on my system is
> giving me a rash. :-(

I understand that many people use Linux because of the freedom it
brings us. Personally, I don't. I use Linux because it is the most
stable and secure OS available in my opinion. The fact freedom factor
is just a bonus for me. I would very happily pay for Linux had that
been the situation. And I am very happy to pay for quality
applications. Photoshop is a very high quality application and I
happily will pay for it when it becomes available for Linux.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Paul Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Thu May 8 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> What programs does she use in Windows? Have you not found Linux
>> equivalents? Have you written to the vendors and asked about a Linux
>> port? Tell me which programs they are and maybe I can suggest
>> something.
>
> Adobe, photoshop Elements... She really doesn't like Gimp. And my scanner (
> Epson Perfection 4180 ) never worked under Linux.

Here is the page to Epson. I just contacted them. I suggest that you
also contact them:
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&infoType=EmailForm&oid=41625&prodoid=46253281

To anybody else still following this thread, please write to Epson and
let them know that we need them to support Debian, or Linux in
general. They support our OS <-> we buy their products.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/9 Paul Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Thu May 8 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> What programs does she use in Windows? Have you not found Linux
>> equivalents? Have you written to the vendors and asked about a Linux
>> port? Tell me which programs they are and maybe I can suggest
>> something.
>
> Adobe, photoshop Elements... She really doesn't like Gimp. And my scanner (
> Epson Perfection 4180 ) never worked under Linux.
>

I've written to Adobe in the past asking about Photoshop and Photoshop
Elements. I suggest that you write to them as well:
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Thu May 8 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> What programs does she use in Windows? Have you not found Linux
> equivalents? Have you written to the vendors and asked about a Linux
> port? Tell me which programs they are and maybe I can suggest
> something.

Adobe, photoshop Elements... She really doesn't like Gimp. And my scanner ( 
Epson Perfection 4180 ) never worked under Linux.

-- 
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux user # 367800
Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Dotan Cohen]

2008/5/4 Paul Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Sun May 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
>> overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???
>
> my wife doesn't like typing, she likes clicking mice. She also likes to
> garden, and she does wonders outside, so when she says she doesn't like
> change ( on the computers) I try to accommodate her. She has instructions
> written down on how to switch our dual-boot from Debian to the dark side &
> back. Luckily she doesn't do it often:) At least she uses Linux, kmail,
> firefox, gwenview, openoffice baby steps..
>

What programs does she use in Windows? Have you not found Linux
equivalents? Have you written to the vendors and asked about a Linux
port? Tell me which programs they are and maybe I can suggest
something.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 08:27:05AM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 02:06:22PM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> > On Sat May 3 2008, Marc Shapiro wrote:
> > >     alias startx='startx -- :0 vt07'
> > >     alias startx='startx -- :1 vt08'
> > >     alias startx='startx -- :2 vt09'
> > so, you don't automagically start the X server on bootup,
> 
> if you REALLY want automatic startx consider this:
> 
> in /etc/inittab
> 
> 2:23:respawn:/bin/login -f user2 /dev/tty2 2>&1
> 3:23:respawn:/bin/login -f user3 /dev/tty3 2>&1
> 4:23:respawn:/bin/login -f user4 /dev/tty4 2>&1
> 
> (which must _replace_ the 2:... 3:... and 4:... lines in /etc/inittab)
> 
> and then 
> 
> at the end of ~user2/.bash_profile
> [ `tty` = /dev/tty2 ] && exec startx -- :0 vt07
> 
> at the end of ~user3/.bash_profile
> [ `tty` = /dev/tty3 ] && exec startx -- :1 vt08
> 
> at the end of ~user4/.bash_profile
> [ `tty` = /dev/tty4 ] && exec startx -- :2 vt09
> 
> But you should also carefully consider: is it a really good idea to have
> one (or more) automatically started X session ?

Or simpler: run gdm on those three consoles (with auto-login). And get
actually an error-handling that actually works.

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 10:58:17AM -0400, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

> I do note that your xfce4-terminal has a 15m Res.  Seems excessive just
> for a terminal.  

Not if it has a large scroll buffer.

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Rich Healey]

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Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Fri May 2 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>> If they float and are not ducks ... nor made of wood, then they must be
>>> ... ?
>> Positively buoyant non-wooden non-ducks.  Or witches.
> 
> hey, wait, **I** can float! especially in salt water:) but not with my laptop 
> on my lap!
> 
But you're a wooden duck, so you're safe.
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/06/08 13:48, Andrei Popescu wrote:
> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:32:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/04/08 00:49, Marc Shapiro wrote:
>> [snip]
 In this configuration, X does *not* start on boot.  The wife and
 daughter must log in at the Scary Black Screen Of Doom.
   
>>> That is correct.  We boot to the console and login from there, then
>>> start X with the startx command which is actually the above alias for
>>> each login.
>> So now there are *four* females who aren't scared away by the SBSOD?
>>  (My wife and, from the time she was 5, daughter also log in that way.)
>>
>> Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
>> overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???
>  
> At least 5. You can count my mother as well (though as an ex. Cobol 
> programmer she is not the proper subject for this kind of statistic).

She is a female, and that's all that matters.

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Jefferson LA  USA

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Andrei Popescu]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:32:06AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/04/08 00:49, Marc Shapiro wrote:
> [snip]
> >>
> >> In this configuration, X does *not* start on boot.  The wife and
> >> daughter must log in at the Scary Black Screen Of Doom.
> >>   
> > That is correct.  We boot to the console and login from there, then
> > start X with the startx command which is actually the above alias for
> > each login.
> 
> So now there are *four* females who aren't scared away by the SBSOD?
>  (My wife and, from the time she was 5, daughter also log in that way.)
> 
> Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
> overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???
 
At least 5. You can count my mother as well (though as an ex. Cobol 
programmer she is not the proper subject for this kind of statistic).

Regards,
Andrei
-- 
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(Albert Einstein)


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[NN_il_Confusionario]

On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 03:52:27PM +1000, Alex Samad wrote:
> I was just trying to show another way of solving the problems.

and this is a good thing

>  My presumption was that cron was part of the LSB.

it might wery well be so, but one can disable it (in my workstation it
is installed to satify dependencies, but it does not run at boot nor in
this moment). On the contray, one cannot disable the pid=1 process
 
> It also got around the problem somebody asked, what to do if the Xserver
> crashed on startup,

the corrresponging thing with the inittab method is to not use respawn
or to not use a fully automated login (as I have already explained). One
can also use a respawn login, but without -f (so that inserting a
password is still required)

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Alex Samad]

On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 07:41:52AM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 07:37:21AM +1000, Alex Samad wrote:
> > why not have a script that is run by root at @reboot that starts X
> 

[snip]

> Your method would not directly work in my workstation which does not run
> any form of cron. (I manually, and rarely, run a script to rotate logs.
> And analogously for other possible cron tasks which I am interested in)
> 
Yep, and your method would work on my workstation (currently running
windows (yuck), and yes I have a X server on here).

I was just trying to show another way of solving the problems.  My
presumption was that cron was part of the LSB.

It also got around the problem somebody asked, what to do if the Xserver
crashed on startup, how to get around the cycle of restarting the X
server and getting to a console.

Horses for courses really

[snip]

> -- 
> Chi usa software non libero avvelena anche te. Digli di smettere.
> Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale.
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> 
> 
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[NN_il_Confusionario]

On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 07:37:21AM +1000, Alex Samad wrote:
> why not have a script that is run by root at @reboot that starts X

if I understand correctly, you need cron for this (and, as you note,
this also can be used for users other than root).

Since init cannot be avoided (or, more exactly, a number 1 process
directly spawned by the kernel is intrinsic to the current achitecture),
my "inittab" method is "universal" (and when the traditional init will
be replaced by something else, the method should still work using the
configuration file of the replacement of the traditional init)

Your method would not directly work in my workstation which does not run
any form of cron. (I manually, and rarely, run a script to rotate logs.
And analogously for other possible cron tasks which I am interested in)

Another difference is that init is able to automatically respawn the
process. But this is a very minor difference since with your method one
could use a "while true" cycle to automatically restart the command when
it terminates.

Probabily others would "simply" use /etc/rc.local 

Or a new /etc/init.d/ script with suitable symlinks in /etc/rc?.d/ (or
suitable entries in /etc/runlevel.conf when file-rc is installed)

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 01:10:00PM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Sun May 4 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > For her password only, couldn't you use one of those low-security thumb
> > readers or a USB key instead of a password?
> 
> she has a USB stick.. how would that work?? Her new Inspiron doesn't  have 
> the 
> thumb reader, the XPS does..


Give her a one-character username.  

Read the pam doc manual (I forget the package name, but it is a separate
package and you get an html document).  Also search aptitude for libpam
and ~dusb.  I'm sure there's some way to have a usb key have a file on
it that functions like a typed-in password.  IIRC, on login, she would:

login:

insert her usb key
hit "W" (her one-letter user name)
hit enter.

pam will look for the usb key and do its magic.

I believe it can also be set up that to log-out (after saving her work),
she just has to remove the key, but I'm not sure.

This obviously has security implications if she leaves that key lying
around.  There's no point password-protecting the key since that would
defeat the purpose of, as someone suggested, supporting your wife's
weenieness.

Back in the day, the hospital at which I worked had terminals and to
login, you had to slide in your ID card to get a login: then username
and password.  Pulling the card logged you out.  You were supposed to
keep wearing the card while you worked incase you had to get up, you
were logged-out.

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Alex Samad]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 04:22:42PM +0200, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 09:20:57AM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> > On Sun May 4 2008, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> > > the login is automatically done.
> > automatic with passwords?
> 
> see man login, option "-f"  
> 
> If you do not want fully automatic logins, consider something in

[snip]

why not have a script that is run by root at @reboot that starts X, this
is what I do on my multimedia machine

@reboot /usr/bin/X11/X :0.0 vt07 /dev/null 2>/dev/null &

pick you vt or have X be started by the user that you want !

> 
> -- 
> Chi usa software non libero avvelena anche te. Digli di smettere.
> Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale.
> Informatica=bomba: intelligente solo per gli stupidi che ci credono.
> 
> 
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In the course of his duties in August 1977, a Dutch veterinary
surgeon was required to treat an ailing cow.  To investigate its internal
gases he inserted a tube into that end of the animal not capable of facial
expression and struck a match.  The jet of flame set fire first to some
bales of hay and then to the whole farm causing damage estimate at L45,000.
The vet was later fined L140 for starting a fire in a manner surprising to
the magistrates.  The cow escaped with shock.
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/04/08 11:35, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 06:37:40AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/04/08 06:32, Paul Cartwright wrote:
>>> On Sun May 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
 Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
 overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???
>>> my wife doesn't like typing, she likes clicking mice. She also likes to 
>>> garden, and she does wonders outside, so when she says she doesn't like 
>>> change ( on the computers) I try to accommodate her. She has instructions 
>>> written down on how to switch our dual-boot from Debian to the dark side & 
>>> back. Luckily she doesn't do it often:) At least she uses Linux, kmail, 
>>> firefox, gwenview, openoffice baby steps..
>> How does she tolerate entering a password?
> 
> For her password only, couldn't you use one of those low-security thumb
> readers or a USB key instead of a password?

Shame on you for enabling such user wienieness.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Sun May 4 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> For her password only, couldn't you use one of those low-security thumb
> readers or a USB key instead of a password?

she has a USB stick.. how would that work?? Her new Inspiron doesn't  have the 
thumb reader, the XPS does..

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 06:37:40AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/04/08 06:32, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> > On Sun May 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
> >> overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???
> > 
> > my wife doesn't like typing, she likes clicking mice. She also likes to 
> > garden, and she does wonders outside, so when she says she doesn't like 
> > change ( on the computers) I try to accommodate her. She has instructions 
> > written down on how to switch our dual-boot from Debian to the dark side & 
> > back. Luckily she doesn't do it often:) At least she uses Linux, kmail, 
> > firefox, gwenview, openoffice baby steps..
> 
> How does she tolerate entering a password?

For her password only, couldn't you use one of those low-security thumb
readers or a USB key instead of a password?

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[NN_il_Confusionario]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 09:20:57AM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Sun May 4 2008, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> > the login is automatically done.
> automatic with passwords?

see man login, option "-f"  

If you do not want fully automatic logins, consider something in
/etc/inittab like

3:23:respawn:/sbin/getty -iwn -I "[EMAIL PROTECTED] [Enter]" -l 
/etc/NN/login.user3 38400 tty3

where /etc/NN/login.user3 is executable by root and contains two lines:

#!/bin/sh
exec /bin/login -f user3 "$@"

Again, this permits autologin even when the user has no valid password
simply by hitting "enter" at the login prompt, but the point is that
there must be some interaction and so no automatic starting of X happens.

> > But let me rephrase the question: if for any reason X does not want to
> > start (and it keeps failing and failing, in the suggested
> > configuration), do you known how to boot in a X-less way to correct the
> > problem? [Hint: in the suggested configuration, X automatically starts
> > only in runlevels 2 and 3] 
> telinit 1 ??

this will work if you can interact with, say, tty1. But when X is
continuously tring to restart and continuously fails, it is very
difficoult to interact with /dev/tty1 (however, the default init can
temporarilly disable inittab entries when "respawning too fast: disabled
for 5 minutes")

A reboot with runlevel 1 4 or 5 (in the kernel command line of the boot
loader) will surely do.

-- 
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[NN_il_Confusionario]

On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 07:36:02AM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Sun May 4 2008, NN_il_Confusionario wrote:
> > But you should also carefully consider: is it a really good idea to have
> > one (or more) automatically started X session ?
> 
> when the computer boots, the first thing(s) I do is log myself and my wife 
> in. 

Well, with my suggested configuration you even do not need this, since
the login is automatically done. 

But let me rephrase the question: if for any reason X does not want to
start (and it keeps failing and failing, in the suggested
configuration), do you known how to boot in a X-less way to correct the
problem? [Hint: in the suggested configuration, X automatically starts
only in runlevels 2 and 3]

-- 
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/04/08 06:32, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Sun May 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
>> overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???
> 
> my wife doesn't like typing, she likes clicking mice. She also likes to 
> garden, and she does wonders outside, so when she says she doesn't like 
> change ( on the computers) I try to accommodate her. She has instructions 
> written down on how to switch our dual-boot from Debian to the dark side & 
> back. Luckily she doesn't do it often:) At least she uses Linux, kmail, 
> firefox, gwenview, openoffice baby steps..

How does she tolerate entering a password?

- --
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Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Sun May 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
> Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
> overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???

my wife doesn't like typing, she likes clicking mice. She also likes to 
garden, and she does wonders outside, so when she says she doesn't like 
change ( on the computers) I try to accommodate her. She has instructions 
written down on how to switch our dual-boot from Debian to the dark side & 
back. Luckily she doesn't do it often:) At least she uses Linux, kmail, 
firefox, gwenview, openoffice baby steps..

-- 
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux user # 367800
Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/04/08 00:49, Marc Shapiro wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> In this configuration, X does *not* start on boot.  The wife and
>> daughter must log in at the Scary Black Screen Of Doom.
>>   
> That is correct.  We boot to the console and login from there, then
> start X with the startx command which is actually the above alias for
> each login.

So now there are *four* females who aren't scared away by the SBSOD?
 (My wife and, from the time she was 5, daughter also log in that way.)

Certainly there are more than 4 females in this world who can
overcome their "fear" of the SBSOD.  Right???

- --
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We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[NN_il_Confusionario]

On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 02:06:22PM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Sat May 3 2008, Marc Shapiro wrote:
> >     alias startx='startx -- :0 vt07'
> >     alias startx='startx -- :1 vt08'
> >     alias startx='startx -- :2 vt09'
> so, you don't automagically start the X server on bootup,

if you REALLY want automatic startx consider this:

in /etc/inittab

2:23:respawn:/bin/login -f user2 /dev/tty2 2>&1
3:23:respawn:/bin/login -f user3 /dev/tty3 2>&1
4:23:respawn:/bin/login -f user4 /dev/tty4 2>&1

(which must _replace_ the 2:... 3:... and 4:... lines in /etc/inittab)

and then 

at the end of ~user2/.bash_profile
[ `tty` = /dev/tty2 ] && exec startx -- :0 vt07

at the end of ~user3/.bash_profile
[ `tty` = /dev/tty3 ] && exec startx -- :1 vt08

at the end of ~user4/.bash_profile
[ `tty` = /dev/tty4 ] && exec startx -- :2 vt09

But you should also carefully consider: is it a really good idea to have
one (or more) automatically started X session ?

-- 
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Marc Shapiro]

Ron Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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On 05/03/08 13:06, Paul Cartwright wrote:
  

On Sat May 3 2008, Marc Shapiro wrote:

 


Sure.  This is my alias for startx:

alias startx='startx -- :0 vt07'

My wife and daughter use:

alias startx='startx -- :1 vt08'
and
alias startx='startx -- :2 vt09'

The sessions usually get started in that order, but it makes no
difference if they are started in other orders.  My session is always on
VT-07, my wife gets VT-08 and my daughter gets VT-09.  That way, I have
an fvwm2 button bar at the bottom of the screen for each of us and I can
have a button to go to either of the other sessions that always gets you
to the correct session.
  
so, you don't automagically start the X server on bootup, or, maybe I'm still 
not clear on the process... these alias lines goes in .bashrc?



Each user's .bashrc get's a different startx alias.

  
so If I put that in our .bashrc files, rebooted, X comes up, and logged her 
in, she would be on vt08?



In this configuration, X does *not* start on boot.  The wife and
daughter must log in at the Scary Black Screen Of Doom.
  
That is correct.  We boot to the console and login from there, then 
start X with the startx command which is actually the above alias for 
each login.


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 02:12:37PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
 
> In this configuration, X does *not* start on boot.  The wife and
> daughter must log in at the Scary Black Screen Of Doom.

Is __that__ what people mean by getting a Black Screen?  I thought they
meant they got a totally blank black screen.  Sheesh, this is *NIX.
Debian at least gives a little friendliness instead of the more terse:


login:_


:)

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

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On 05/03/08 13:06, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Sat May 3 2008, Marc Shapiro wrote:
>>>  
>> Sure.  This is my alias for startx:
>>
>> alias startx='startx -- :0 vt07'
>>
>> My wife and daughter use:
>>
>> alias startx='startx -- :1 vt08'
>> and
>> alias startx='startx -- :2 vt09'
>>
>> The sessions usually get started in that order, but it makes no
>> difference if they are started in other orders.  My session is always on
>> VT-07, my wife gets VT-08 and my daughter gets VT-09.  That way, I have
>> an fvwm2 button bar at the bottom of the screen for each of us and I can
>> have a button to go to either of the other sessions that always gets you
>> to the correct session.
> 
> so, you don't automagically start the X server on bootup, or, maybe I'm still 
> not clear on the process... these alias lines goes in .bashrc?

Each user's .bashrc get's a different startx alias.

> so If I put that in our .bashrc files, rebooted, X comes up, and logged her 
> in, she would be on vt08?

In this configuration, X does *not* start on boot.  The wife and
daughter must log in at the Scary Black Screen Of Doom.

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Sat May 3 2008, Marc Shapiro wrote:
> >  
>
> Sure.  This is my alias for startx:
>
>     alias startx='startx -- :0 vt07'
>
> My wife and daughter use:
>
>     alias startx='startx -- :1 vt08'
>     and
>     alias startx='startx -- :2 vt09'
>
> The sessions usually get started in that order, but it makes no
> difference if they are started in other orders.  My session is always on
> VT-07, my wife gets VT-08 and my daughter gets VT-09.  That way, I have
> an fvwm2 button bar at the bottom of the screen for each of us and I can
> have a button to go to either of the other sessions that always gets you
> to the correct session.

so, you don't automagically start the X server on bootup, or, maybe I'm still 
not clear on the process... these alias lines goes in .bashrc?
so If I put that in our .bashrc files, rebooted, X comes up, and logged her 
in, she would be on vt08?


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Marc Shapiro]

Paul Cartwright wrote:

On Sat May 3 2008, Marc Shapiro wrote:
  
I have three X sessions running on my box.  All started with startx.  
Each user has an alias for startx that uses a specified VT.  It makes no

difference what order the sessions are started in, ech person gets a
session on the same VT each time startx is invoked.  That way I there is
no confusion and my wife, daughter and I always know which terminal our
session is on.  We also all have different backgrounds so that we can
see at a glance whose session is currently up.



would you care to share how you do that???
I want something very similar:)
I like to log in first after a reboot, so I can always CTRL-ALT-F7 to get back 
to me. I log my wife in 2ndm so she can always CTRL-ALT-F8 to get back to 
HER.. but I run xfce, and she runs KDE.. What I had to do to get that started 
is to log in to ME using KDE, log her in using KDE, go back to me, log out, 
then log in using XFCE, because xfce doesn't HAVE a switch user menu !
Someone on the xfce list said I could use gdm instead of kde and then xfce 
would have a menu for switching, but I'm not sure how that would work 
either...

thanks,

  

Sure.  This is my alias for startx:

   alias startx='startx -- :0 vt07'

My wife and daughter use:

   alias startx='startx -- :1 vt08'
   and
   alias startx='startx -- :2 vt09'

The sessions usually get started in that order, but it makes no 
difference if they are started in other orders.  My session is always on 
VT-07, my wife gets VT-08 and my daughter gets VT-09.  That way, I have 
an fvwm2 button bar at the bottom of the screen for each of us and I can 
have a button to go to either of the other sessions that always gets you 
to the correct session.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Sat May 3 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> How can a process be in the middle of something, yet the system is 49%
> idle with 0% wait, while ffmpg is 100%.  Or is this a multi-core system
> and ffmpeg isn't multi-threaded?
yes and yes. Intel Core Duo and ffmpeg is multi-threaded..

Multiple CPUs detected; mpeg2enc will use multithreading.

>
> I do note that your xfce4-terminal has a 15m Res.  Seems excessive just
> for a terminal.  
 
>  6012 pbc       15   0 27224  15m 8824 R    0  0.8   0:01.59 xfce4-terminal   
>  

not sure I understand what you mean?
>
> I would call a box with 2GB ram a "big" box.  My smaller box has 64 MB,
> then there's my 486 with 32 MB...
>
> Doug.

well, it IS a newer duo-core and I DID want to have 2Gb memory.. not to run 
Vista, just so it would be ABLE to:)


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 08:18:25AM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Fri May 2 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

> I'm in the middle of a movie conversion using ffmpeg and I am getting:

> top - 08:17:17 up 19:26,  4 users,  load average: 1.04, 1.36, 1.45
> Tasks: 174 total,   3 running, 169 sleeping,   0 stopped,   2 zombie
> Cpu(s): 50.4%us,  0.0%sy,  0.0%ni, 49.6%id,  0.0%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st
> Mem:   2075308k total,  2024600k used,50708k free,   118460k buffers
> Swap:  2104472k total,  816k used,  2103656k free,  1128936k cached
> 
>   PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND  
>   
>  8268 pbc   25   0 31640  18m 2176 R  100  0.9  53:51.56 ffmpeg   
>   
>  5223 root  16   0 87180  58m  12m S1  2.9  37:45.27 Xorg 
>   
>  6012 pbc   15   0 27224  15m 8824 R0  0.8   0:01.59 xfce4-terminal   
>   

How can a process be in the middle of something, yet the system is 49%
idle with 0% wait, while ffmpg is 100%.  Or is this a multi-core system
and ffmpeg isn't multi-threaded?

I do note that your xfce4-terminal has a 15m Res.  Seems excessive just
for a terminal.  

I would call a box with 2GB ram a "big" box.  My smaller box has 64 MB,
then there's my 486 with 32 MB...

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Fri May 2 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> I don't think anyone said that XFCE4 used as much CPU power as KDE, its
> the memory thing that makes GTK2 a pain for me.  While I use Konq for
> most browsing there are a couple of websites I use that have bugs that
> only Iceweasel can ignore.  I need to use my big box for that, then of
> course get back out of Iceweasel to a saner world.

big box, small box.. I have one desktop and 1 laptop...

>
> I used to use XFCE4-terminal, since it did what I need in a way I like,
> but if I left it open, away would go the memory.  Now I have mrxvt setup
> to work almost the same as the XFCE4 terminal (nice fonts, tabs,
> off-white background, etc) with far less memory used.

I always leave terminals up and running.. right now I have a shell - Konsole 
window and a terminal - terminal window.. I'm not sure what the difference 
is, but one is black text on white, the other is white text on black. I'm in 
the middle of a movie conversion using ffmpeg and I am getting:
 

top - 08:17:17 up 19:26,  4 users,  load average: 1.04, 1.36, 1.45
Tasks: 174 total,   3 running, 169 sleeping,   0 stopped,   2 zombie
Cpu(s): 50.4%us,  0.0%sy,  0.0%ni, 49.6%id,  0.0%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.0%st
Mem:   2075308k total,  2024600k used,50708k free,   118460k buffers
Swap:  2104472k total,  816k used,  2103656k free,  1128936k cached

  PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
 8268 pbc   25   0 31640  18m 2176 R  100  0.9  53:51.56 ffmpeg 
 5223 root  16   0 87180  58m  12m S1  2.9  37:45.27 Xorg   
 6012 pbc   15   0 27224  15m 8824 R0  0.8   0:01.59 xfce4-terminal 
1 root  15   0  2088  716  612 S0  0.0   0:03.16 init   
2 root  RT   0 000 S0  0.0   0:00.01 migration/0
3 root  34  19 000 S0  0.0   0:06.25 ksoftirqd/0
4 root  RT   0 000 S0  0.0   0:00.00 migration/1
5 root  34  19 000 S0  0.0   0:00.08 ksoftirqd/1
6 root  10  -5 000 S0  0.0   0:00.10 events/0   
7 root  10  -5 000 S0  0.0   0:00.01 events/1   
8 root  10  -5 000 S0 

and that doesn't include the other user logged in..
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Marc Shapiro]

Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

Ron Johnson wrote:


If God had wanted Man to use multi-seat, He would have let it be
used with startx.



Absolutely true. However, an oversight in creation (which is eternal 
and constant) is providing VT's which each videocard. This causes a 
difficulty for using startx for any user except the first one.


A heretical notion perhaps...
I have three X sessions running on my box.  All started with startx.  
Each user has an alias for startx that uses a specified VT.  It makes no 
difference what order the sessions are started in, ech person gets a 
session on the same VT each time startx is invoked.  That way I there is 
no confusion and my wife, daughter and I always know which terminal our 
session is on.  We also all have different backgrounds so that we can 
see at a glance whose session is currently up.


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:03:58AM -0400, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Fri May 2 2008, andy wrote:
> > Cheers Mike (& everyone else who has contributed). I downloaded OpenBox
> > and am running it within Gnome after rebooting. I would say that Xfce4
> > has some very serious memory holes at present - my system was just
> > grinding to a halt.
> 
> well, I just switched from KDE to XFCE4 and just with a first look, it runs 
> MUCH faster than KDE. On KDE, when I run klibido it uses 101% cpu useage (Duo 
> Core?), yet xfce, running about the same processes ( mail, firefox, 
> terminals, liferea and klibido) when I run top, klibido is only taking 10% 
> CPU and I have 90% free.

I don't think anyone said that XFCE4 used as much CPU power as KDE, its
the memory thing that makes GTK2 a pain for me.  While I use Konq for
most browsing there are a couple of websites I use that have bugs that
only Iceweasel can ignore.  I need to use my big box for that, then of
course get back out of Iceweasel to a saner world.

I used to use XFCE4-terminal, since it did what I need in a way I like,
but if I left it open, away would go the memory.  Now I have mrxvt setup
to work almost the same as the XFCE4 terminal (nice fonts, tabs,
off-white background, etc) with far less memory used.

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Douglas A. Tutty]

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 09:59:16AM -0500, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
 
> Absolutely true. However, an oversight in creation (which is eternal and 
> constant) is providing VT's which each videocard. This causes a 
> difficulty for using startx for any user except the first one.

Who needs a video card to have a VT.  That's the joy of VTs :) (eg.
VT520 on a serial port with no video card, of course on a box that can
boot without a video card)

:)

Doug.


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Mike Bird]

On Fri May 2 2008 14:20:14 andy wrote:
> If they float and are not ducks ... nor made of wood, then they must be
> ... ?

Very small rocks?



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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Fri May 2 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > If they float and are not ducks ... nor made of wood, then they must be
> > ... ?
>
> Positively buoyant non-wooden non-ducks.  Or witches.

hey, wait, **I** can float! especially in salt water:) but not with my laptop 
on my lap!

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 16:20, andy wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/02/08 15:50, Alex Samad wrote:
>   
 On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 10:10:50AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On 05/02/08 09:59, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

 
> [snip]
>   
>> A heretical notion perhaps...
>> 
> Heretics get burned at the stake.
>   
 That makes them witches, but test them first in water
 
> 
> What if they are male?
> 
>>
>>

> If they float and are not ducks ... nor made of wood, then they must be
> ... ?

Positively buoyant non-wooden non-ducks.  Or witches.

- --
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Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[andy]

Ron Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 15:50, Alex Samad wrote:
  

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 10:10:50AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
On 05/02/08 09:59, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:



[snip]
  

A heretical notion perhaps...


Heretics get burned at the stake.
  

That makes them witches, but test them first in water



What if they are male?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
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We want... a Shrubbery!!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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F7oQD/SZw1gt9k0XkgfWF44=
=nM+i
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


  
If they float and are not ducks ... nor made of wood, then they must be 
... ?


--

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answers." - Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 15:50, Alex Samad wrote:
> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 10:10:50AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 05/02/08 09:59, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
> 
>> [snip]
> 
>>> A heretical notion perhaps...
>> Heretics get burned at the stake.
> 
> That makes them witches, but test them first in water

What if they are male?

- --
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Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Alex Samad]

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 10:10:50AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 05/02/08 09:59, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
> > Ron Johnson wrote:

[snip]

> > A heretical notion perhaps...
> 
> Heretics get burned at the stake.

That makes them witches, but test them first in water

> 
> - --
> Ron Johnson, Jr.
> Jefferson LA  USA
> 
> We want... a Shrubbery!!
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> 

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Ron Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 09:59, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

Ron Johnson wrote:

On 05/02/08 09:13, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

Ron Johnson wrote:

On 05/01/08 16:55, Mike Bird wrote:
[snip]

You have two gdm's, and xfce desktop, and a lot of KDE running.
You have several heavy applications running.  That's way more
than will fit comfortably in a gig of RAM.

Isn't that just pathetic?  Makes me want to shake my cane at some
young punk and rave about how WordStar on a KayPro IV was the last
good word processor...


If you can't quickly find a solution to those two xfce memory
hogs I would suggest dropping xfce and gdm, and using kdm.  You're

If God meant man to a display manager, he wouldn't have invented
startx!

Eh? "If God meant a use for display managers, he wouldn't have revealed
startx. Except for those of his special friends who use multi-seat
Debian."

If God had wanted Man to use multi-seat, He would have let it be
used with startx.


Absolutely true. However, an oversight in creation (which is eternal and
constant) is providing VT's which each videocard. This causes a
difficulty for using startx for any user except the first one.

A heretical notion perhaps...


Heretics get burned at the stake.



http://www.geocities.com/hugovanwoerkom/bullxxii.html

Hugo


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 09:59, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>> On 05/02/08 09:13, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
>>> Ron Johnson wrote:

 On 05/01/08 16:55, Mike Bird wrote:
 [snip]
> You have two gdm's, and xfce desktop, and a lot of KDE running.
> You have several heavy applications running.  That's way more
> than will fit comfortably in a gig of RAM.
 Isn't that just pathetic?  Makes me want to shake my cane at some
 young punk and rave about how WordStar on a KayPro IV was the last
 good word processor...

> If you can't quickly find a solution to those two xfce memory
> hogs I would suggest dropping xfce and gdm, and using kdm.  You're
 If God meant man to a display manager, he wouldn't have invented
 startx!
>>> Eh? "If God meant a use for display managers, he wouldn't have revealed
>>> startx. Except for those of his special friends who use multi-seat
>>> Debian."
>>
>> If God had wanted Man to use multi-seat, He would have let it be
>> used with startx.
>>
> 
> Absolutely true. However, an oversight in creation (which is eternal and
> constant) is providing VT's which each videocard. This causes a
> difficulty for using startx for any user except the first one.
> 
> A heretical notion perhaps...

Heretics get burned at the stake.

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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Paul Cartwright]

On Fri May 2 2008, andy wrote:
> Cheers Mike (& everyone else who has contributed). I downloaded OpenBox
> and am running it within Gnome after rebooting. I would say that Xfce4
> has some very serious memory holes at present - my system was just
> grinding to a halt.

well, I just switched from KDE to XFCE4 and just with a first look, it runs 
MUCH faster than KDE. On KDE, when I run klibido it uses 101% cpu useage (Duo 
Core?), yet xfce, running about the same processes ( mail, firefox, 
terminals, liferea and klibido) when I run top, klibido is only taking 10% 
CPU and I have 90% free.

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Registered Linux user # 367800
Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Ron Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 09:13, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

Ron Johnson wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/01/08 16:55, Mike Bird wrote:
[snip]

You have two gdm's, and xfce desktop, and a lot of KDE running.
You have several heavy applications running.  That's way more
than will fit comfortably in a gig of RAM.

Isn't that just pathetic?  Makes me want to shake my cane at some
young punk and rave about how WordStar on a KayPro IV was the last
good word processor...


If you can't quickly find a solution to those two xfce memory
hogs I would suggest dropping xfce and gdm, and using kdm.  You're

If God meant man to a display manager, he wouldn't have invented startx!

Eh? "If God meant a use for display managers, he wouldn't have revealed
startx. Except for those of his special friends who use multi-seat Debian."


If God had wanted Man to use multi-seat, He would have let it be
used with startx.



Absolutely true. However, an oversight in creation (which is eternal and 
constant) is providing VT's which each videocard. This causes a 
difficulty for using startx for any user except the first one.


A heretical notion perhaps...

Hugo


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Re: Clearing SWAP

[Ron Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 05/02/08 09:13, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 05/01/08 16:55, Mike Bird wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> You have two gdm's, and xfce desktop, and a lot of KDE running.
>>> You have several heavy applications running.  That's way more
>>> than will fit comfortably in a gig of RAM.
>>
>> Isn't that just pathetic?  Makes me want to shake my cane at some
>> young punk and rave about how WordStar on a KayPro IV was the last
>> good word processor...
>>
>>> If you can't quickly find a solution to those two xfce memory
>>> hogs I would suggest dropping xfce and gdm, and using kdm.  You're
>>
>> If God meant man to a display manager, he wouldn't have invented startx!
> 
> Eh? "If God meant a use for display managers, he wouldn't have revealed
> startx. Except for those of his special friends who use multi-seat Debian."

If God had wanted Man to use multi-seat, He would have let it be
used with startx.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

We want... a Shrubbery!!
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Re: Clearing SWAP

[andy]

Mike Bird wrote:

8< snip, snip

kbuildsycoca normally only runs for several seconds after changing
something in KDE.  If it's running non-stop you have a problem.
It's probably safe just to kill kbuildsycoca but a reboot would be
kinder.

As for iceape-bin, it shouldn't be using that much CPU except in
very short bursts.  Maybe you have a bad plugin, or maybe it's a
bad interaction with the multiple windowing systems.

You have two gdm's, and xfce desktop, and a lot of KDE running.
You have several heavy applications running.  That's way more
than will fit comfortably in a gig of RAM.

If you can't quickly find a solution to those two xfce memory
hogs I would suggest dropping xfce and gdm, and using kdm.  You're
not saving anything with xfce as you're apps are so heavily KDE.

--Mike Bird


  
Cheers Mike (& everyone else who has contributed). I downloaded OpenBox 
and am running it within Gnome after rebooting. I would say that Xfce4 
has some very serious memory holes at present - my system was just 
grinding to a halt. It's a real shame. When I used to run Slackware 
using Xfce4 I managed uptimes in excess of 40 days or so without any 
problems and reboots were controlled and deliberate, not to rescue 
memory. I am really torn - I very much appreciate the way that Debian 
automates the whole package management thing and (generally) just sits 
in the background, but I really do miss the memory efficiency of 
Slackware. It pisses me off that for no good reason I cannot load an 
additional 1 GB RAM chip into this box without bringing Deb to a 
standstill (the mobo is capable of 4 GB, so 2 GB total is not an issue 
from the hardware's perspective), and if I have to reboot every week or 
so to recover memory then that is a PITA too - despite what apps I am 
using. One of the aspects of GNU/Linux is its sane handling of memory: 
close an app and the memory is released. One expects that, unlike the MS 
world. My experiences with Xfce4 and also - to some extent Gnome - over 
the last few weeks to months has not lived up to that expectation. I 
don't know if that is Debian or what, but a happy bunny it does not me make.


Right now my needs are to have a system that runs reliably and 
efficiently and is not high maintenance ... I have far too much work to 
do without faffing about with a computer just so that I can get the job 
done. Computers are tools, and if they don't do the job, or become too 
high maintenance that they interfere with my work, then they are 
evidently not the right tool.


Anyway, thanks for all the help and comments folks. I am appreciative of 
your input.


Best wishes

Andy

--

"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the 
answers." - Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"