Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 03:03:18PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 05:42:30AM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 06:55:39PM +, Adam Funk wrote: It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. And that's a good thing, since the one has little to do with the other. I can possibly see why the comment above was made: though I don't agree with flamewars :) Intel marketing hasn't helped Intel or the market here :) 386/486/Pentium we could understand. AMD pushed 64 bit to market: Intel pushed slightly later. They then produced, in turn, 64 bit capable Xeons and 64 bit capable Pentium D's. [EM64T is the magic bit here] I ordered several AMD 64 bit workstations for work the other day, a dual Xeon and a Pentium (for code that has to be _Intel_ compatible and for code that has to be _Intel_ compatible and 32 bit) only to be told by the vendor Oh no, we don't stock 32 bit any more - all our stuff is 64 bit capable now Xeon up till a fairly short while ago was 32 bit, as was Pentium :now it's 64 bit (but that re-use of established brand names for two different processor families doesn't tell anybody that EM64T is pretty much equal to capable of running AMD64 code natively in 64 bit mode :) ) So Xeon alone says nothing and, in fact, to the uneducated eye, might be taken at face value as 32 bit hence, potentially, the one has little to do with the other. How is this comment of use to anyone? You need to get off your high-horse Mark. I don't think i have ever seen a usefull comment from you on any subject. Please try and be civil on-list: if you must get exasperated or annoyed try and keep flamage off list because it provokes longer and longer replies :) Andy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:20:59 + Adam Funk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-23, Justin Guerin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. You're right, but in the case of Xeon, it's because Intel makes both 32 bit and 64 bit (EM64T) Xeon branded CPUs. I didn't know that! I don't know if that situation exists with other processors, but I wouldn't be surprised. Well, I know that an Athlon used to be 32-bit, so I figured out that an Athlon 64 would be 64-bit, but obviously they're not all so straightforward. It sounds like what you want is something that says Intel PIII processors use the i386 port ... etc. I don't know if that exists, but I agree it would be a good resource. Perhaps someone could put up a page on wiki.debian.org? That would be very useful. I'm not stupid (of course I would say that) -- I'm just not very interested in hardware or knowledgeable about it. Seems to me that processor detection should be built in somewhere. Maybe in the install. AFAIK, -i386 based kernels will run on more modern hardware. SHould the installer boot to a -i386 kernel, do a processor check and notify the user that they do or do not have the appropriate kernel on their install disk? Is there room to put all the kernels on the main install disk? net install should surely be able to handle this. Been a while since an install, so I don't know whether this is done already... A A -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpiGOAWZUiae.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have a wide range of choices. You can go pure 32 bit and install the standard i386 Debian, you can go mixed and have a 64 bit kernel an 32 bit user space or you can go pure 64 bit. I've never tried a mixed system but apparently it works fine. If I go pure 32 bit and install i386 Debian on 64 bit hardware, will I be able to run the i386 binaries (e.g. OpenOffice and flash) without any trouble? Thanks, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 05:42:30AM -0800, Marc Wilson wrote: On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 06:55:39PM +, Adam Funk wrote: It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. And that's a good thing, since the one has little to do with the other. How is this comment of use to anyone? You need to get off your high-horse Mark. I don't think i have ever seen a usefull comment from you on any subject. -- Marc Wilson | Nothing motivates a man more than to see his boss [EMAIL PROTECTED] | put in an honest day's work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 06:55:39PM +, Adam Funk wrote: It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. And that's a good thing, since the one has little to do with the other. -- Marc Wilson | Nothing motivates a man more than to see his boss [EMAIL PROTECTED] | put in an honest day's work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Monday 20 February 2006 03:10, Adam Funk wrote: On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Is there a table anywhere that lists processors by their common names and tells which kernels will work on which ones? Thanks, Adam I hope the list on http://www.debian.org/ports/ gives you the information you seek. If not, what is missing? It may yet be out there... Justin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2006-02-23, Justin Guerin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a table anywhere that lists processors by their common names and tells which kernels will work on which ones? I hope the list on http://www.debian.org/ports/ gives you the information you seek. If not, what is missing? It may yet be out there... It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Thursday 23 February 2006 11:55, Adam Funk wrote: On 2006-02-23, Justin Guerin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a table anywhere that lists processors by their common names and tells which kernels will work on which ones? I hope the list on http://www.debian.org/ports/ gives you the information you seek. If not, what is missing? It may yet be out there... It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. You're right, but in the case of Xeon, it's because Intel makes both 32 bit and 64 bit (EM64T) Xeon branded CPUs. I don't know if that situation exists with other processors, but I wouldn't be surprised. It sounds like what you want is something that says Intel PIII processors use the i386 port ... etc. I don't know if that exists, but I agree it would be a good resource. Perhaps someone could put up a page on wiki.debian.org? Justin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2006-02-23, Justin Guerin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It gives the information -- but not in a dumbed-down enough format for me. For example, nowhere on that page is the word Xeon mentioned, so if I bought a Xeon computer, for example, I wouldn't know from that page alone to install AMD64. You're right, but in the case of Xeon, it's because Intel makes both 32 bit and 64 bit (EM64T) Xeon branded CPUs. I didn't know that! I don't know if that situation exists with other processors, but I wouldn't be surprised. Well, I know that an Athlon used to be 32-bit, so I figured out that an Athlon 64 would be 64-bit, but obviously they're not all so straightforward. It sounds like what you want is something that says Intel PIII processors use the i386 port ... etc. I don't know if that exists, but I agree it would be a good resource. Perhaps someone could put up a page on wiki.debian.org? That would be very useful. I'm not stupid (of course I would say that) -- I'm just not very interested in hardware or knowledgeable about it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. The Althon 64 fully supports i386 through some fancy on chip emulation that is as fast as a native 32 bit chip (I think all the 64 bit processors you mention do this but don't quite me on that). So I could do that by booting a normal i386 network-installation bootable CD, and start with the i386 kernel, right? In this case, would I be able to run OpenOffice, mplayer and flash without difficulty from the binary packages? Should this also work on Xeon and Opteron, and how do I choose between the three processors? In that case, which kernel flavour would I use? You have a wide range of choices. You can go pure 32 bit and install the standard i386 Debian, you can go mixed and have a 64 bit kernel an 32 bit user space or you can go pure 64 bit. I've never tried a mixed system but apparently it works fine. I'm running the 2.6.15-1-amd64-k8 kernel at the moment which is AMD64 specific. If you are confused just go for one of the generic kernels. Is there a table anywhere that lists processors by their common names and tells which kernels will work on which ones? Thanks, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2/20/06, Adam Funk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. The Althon 64 fully supports i386 through some fancy on chip emulation that is as fast as a native 32 bit chip (I think all the 64 bit processors you mention do this but don't quite me on that). AMD64 calls for a native implementation of 32-bit x86 instructions. How they implement 64-bit mode is what sets apart the AMD from the Intel implementation... So I could do that by booting a normal i386 network-installation bootable CD, and start with the i386 kernel, right? Yep. You might have some problems with some hardware whether in 32-bit or 64-bit mode (e.g. NForce 4 chipset). In this case, would I be able to run OpenOffice, mplayer and flash without difficulty from the binary packages? Yep. Should this also work on Xeon and Opteron, and how do I choose between the three processors? Opteron is AMD's server chip. Xeon is the Intel counterpart. Both implement AMD64 (branded as EM64T in Intel's implementation) although AMD's implementation is far superior due to many reasons you can Google online. Athlon64 and Athlon64 X2 are AMD's consumer chips that implement AMD64. The Pentium 4 Prescott and Pentium D also implement EM64T; then again AMD's implementation is again far superior. -- Paolo Alexis Falcone [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Confused about 64-bit architectures.
I'm planning to buy a new home computer soon and am considering Xeon, Athlon 64 and Opteron 64, but I'm not sure about the relevant Debian architectures, ia64 and amd64. Which one applies to which of those processors? I'm also concerned about the potential shortage of 64-bit software for a general-purpose workstation, so I'd like to know what other people think of this. Will I be setting myself up for a lot of hassle? Should I just stick with a Pentium 4 for now? Thanks, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Friday 17 February 2006 10:02, Adam Funk wrote: I'm planning to buy a new home computer soon and am considering Xeon, Athlon 64 and Opteron 64, but I'm not sure about the relevant Debian architectures, ia64 and amd64. Which one applies to which of those processors? I'm also concerned about the potential shortage of 64-bit software for a general-purpose workstation, so I'd like to know what other people think of this. Will I be setting myself up for a lot of hassle? Should I just stick with a Pentium 4 for now? Thanks, Adam Well I can't speak for the other two but I am currently sitting in front of an Athlon 64 machine running the AMD64 port of Debian (Sid flavour). There is no real shortage of software for AMD64 as long as you only use OSS stuff as generally it just needs compiling for 64 bit. There are some exceptions though which you should know about before installing the AMD64 port. At the moment OpenOffice doesn't compile / run as a 64 bit application (well there are some versions floating about but they are still a fair way from entering Sid AFAIK). This means that it has to be run through a chroot which is a pain but not very complicated. If you watch a lot of non-mpeg movies you will also need the chroot to run mplayer with the codec pack. I've never managed to get flash working (no loss there then) and real player can be a problem. Other than that _everything_ I've tried just works on 64 bit. Having said that there is not really any advantage to running the 64 bit port as there isn't any software that makes use of the extra features and the Althon 64 in 32 bit mode is just as fast. The choice is yours, as they say. Hope that helps, Graham -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Friday 17 February 2006 11:02, Adam Funk wrote: I'm planning to buy a new home computer soon and am considering Xeon, Athlon 64 and Opteron 64, but I'm not sure about the relevant Debian architectures, ia64 and amd64. Which one applies to which of those processors? I'm also concerned about the potential shortage of 64-bit software for a general-purpose workstation, so I'd like to know what other people think of this. Will I be setting myself up for a lot of hassle? Should I just stick with a Pentium 4 for now? Thanks, Adam amd64 applies to all amd *64 processors, that is athlon, turion and opteron afaik, and recent Intel processors of the Pentium and Xeon brands. Prescott P4s support amd64, branded EM64T by Intel, for example. IA64 is usable only on Intel Itantum processors. You can run i386 on AMD64 processors as well. Most open source software (including all of KDE and GNOME) works on AMD64 and for that that doesn't or for non-open source software you can use the i386 emulation built into the processor and supported by the linux kernel. The debian amd64 howto is one of many sources of information. I am on an Athlon64 now. AFAIK, Intel Pentium and Xeon processors do not support EM64T as well as AMD64 is supported by AMD. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that there is not really any advantage to running the 64 bit port as there isn't any software that makes use of the extra features and the Althon 64 in 32 bit mode is just as fast. Does that mean I can just install Debian i386 on an Athlon 64? In that case, which kernel flavour would I use? Thanks, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On Friday 17 February 2006 14:42, Adam Funk wrote: On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that there is not really any advantage to running the 64 bit port as there isn't any software that makes use of the extra features and the Althon 64 in 32 bit mode is just as fast. Does that mean I can just install Debian i386 on an Athlon 64? Yes. The Althon 64 fully supports i386 through some fancy on chip emulation that is as fast as a native 32 bit chip (I think all the 64 bit processors you mention do this but don't quite me on that). In that case, which kernel flavour would I use? You have a wide range of choices. You can go pure 32 bit and install the standard i386 Debian, you can go mixed and have a 64 bit kernel an 32 bit user space or you can go pure 64 bit. I've never tried a mixed system but apparently it works fine. I'm running the 2.6.15-1-amd64-k8 kernel at the moment which is AMD64 specific. If you are confused just go for one of the generic kernels. Graham Thanks, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused about 64-bit architectures.
On 2/17/06, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 17 February 2006 14:42, Adam Funk wrote: On 2006-02-17, Graham Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that there is not really any advantage to running the 64 bit port as there isn't any software that makes use of the extra features and the Althon 64 in 32 bit mode is just as fast. Does that mean I can just install Debian i386 on an Athlon 64? Yes. The Althon 64 fully supports i386 through some fancy on chip emulationthat is as fast as a native 32 bit chip (I think all the 64 bit processorsyou mention do this but don't quite me on that). AMD64 does not emulate x86-32. Rather x86-64 is an extention of x86-32. Soyes all x86-32 software runs fine (and at full speed) on x86-64, but not becauseof emulation.
