Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, David Moreno Garza wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 15:30, W Paul Mills wrote: As in every other aspect of life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Humm... He is a new debian user, and you want him to start fixing things immediately. He may never stick around that long. Give him a break! Yes, there are always people who forget these simple things when talking of/with new users. Perhaps you and Paul think I meant by fixing things that the original poster should start learning C and building packages etc. Far from it! There are many ways in which Debian can be helped which don't require programming. All it takes is a willingness to jump in. Back in 1997 I was a new user (not new to Linux though but still in the dark about a lot of things.) I was complaining about something or another on this very list. And the answer I got was exactly So why don't you fix it? And I did and here I am today. I didn't complain about the answer because that's what I and everyone else thought you were supposed to do. Somewhere down the line people have started thinking that Linux is a product and Debian is a vendor. Well it isn't and we aren't. There are vendors who have made products out of Linux and even Debian in particular but they ask for something else in return usually money. So when the original poster says that Suse is a product that fits his needs but he doesn't want to pay for it frankly I don't have much sympathy. It's not about complaining. Criticize all you want the stuff in Debian that deserves criticism. But back the complaints up with some action or it just looks like whining. i agree completely. i reject the abject consumerism with 'products' and 'vendors' as well completely. BUT, I hope I do not do that forgetting a certain humanist mildness. so give this poster a break. steef -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
us something to which we are entitled. While I wouldn't have added the wah wah wah! part, I, too, found the post to which Jaldhar Vyas replied to be a bit selfish in tone; and I know that if I was putting tons of time into developing Debian and then read something like that, I'd be pretty annoyed too. Sorry, that is *not* what I wanted. The old problem with emails, that you dont have a voice to say how you mean it. I dont want start a flamewar, I dont want to say all this is bullshit. Never! It *is* great and it was (and is) a lot of work. But when I read 10 times the same problem with other words explained in this list, I am wondering if this is really necessary. I just wanted to give you a hint, what additional functions the new (hopefully) wonderful installer may can have. Probably this list would have half the size. And I am not in the postion to say: Hey, I am your user, do it for me. How can I? What I am missing is a hint: hey, dont mind, here is a tool, try it out... Isnt there a config tool at all ( I do not mean dpkg, but a wrapper for it)? Some work in progress maybe? Anything I can start with? I could start a new one, but I dont like to make the same work twice. And the feeling to say: hello, I am new, and I write for you all a nice config tool, it will be great... this is... (could someone translate unglaubwuerdig, please). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 11:42:25AM +0200, J. Preiss wrote: I could start a new one, but I dont like to make the same work twice. And the feeling to say: hello, I am new, and I write for you all a nice config tool, it will be great... this is... (could someone translate unglaubwuerdig, please). not plausible (apt-get install translate) Regards Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
not plausible (apt-get install translate) tststs... :-) Great tool! But not useful until I cope with umlauts :-( (Dont reply,its another thread). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
J. Preiss schrieb: [...] (could someone translate unglaubwuerdig, please). You can use one of the best web resources for EN - DE http://dict.leo.org/ Direct Matches unbelievable adj. unglaubwürdig Phrases and Collocations not authentic unglaubwürdig not reliableunglaubwürdig Examples condemned as untrustworthy als unglaubwürdig verworfen Helmut Wollmersdorfer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 04:19:32PM +0200, J. Preiss wrote: dpgk-reconfigure is only required if you want to reconfigure a package. Packages remember the initial configurations so you need to configure them on upgrade only if a configuration option changed. The problem is that everything is within a package, but the relations are not always clear (console-common is not really what I expected). You are right there, afraid no easy solution. using aptitude search (look at the man page for various options on searching different sections) or apt-cache search will usually get you there, otherwise, this is one of the reasons the list exists. (or synaptics for gui, I think there is also something else). For example either of the following aptitude search console apt-cache search console config produces among other things: console-common - Basic infrastructure for text console configuration A lot of time google can help also. Locales have nothing to do with the keyboard. They control how things are displayed on screen. I don't know how to change keyboard in the console (I think console-tools or something like that), in X its in the XF86Config-4 file, using a variety of graphical configurators (very little experience with them I'm afraid), or using the gnome/kde keyboard switchers. Tell me what you want to set and we'll find out how. Isn't that the problem at all: sure, gimme enough time and I find out everything :-) You know, I reinstalled my pc, replaced suse by debian in the hope, that after a few hours I can continue work. That was wrong just because of so small things... keyboard layout, display charsets, mounting options... It is ok that you can specify each little peace that you want, but in this case you even *must*. Thats true, some things are harder/easier then others. Locales can be a problem for people new to linux, although IIRC the kde setup has something on these when you first start kde. Changing the keyboard through X (xkb) is a bit more advanced (IIRC some if the gui X setup programs help you with that) but thats why both kde and gnome include the keyboard switching applets by default. A menu which handles the calls for dpkg is urgently needed. Thats right, setup menus and utilities are not one of debian's strong points since when people get to the point when they can contribute it usually isn't the part that bothers them. Hopefully it will be the next project after the installer ;-) Where does X fail and what version? hopefully we can help you start it up. Its in two other threads: changing default display mgr and trouble installing kde. When you install a display manager it asks you if you want to set it to the default (kdm,xdm,wdm and gdm), window managers are more of a problem but at least gdm and kdm give you a menu to choose between them. IIRC the installation process allows you to set that. Otherwise the settings are in /etc/network/interfaces. I am sure that there is a gui that does that but don't know any. No, installation did not allow me to change it. Maybe because a dhcp-server was found (?) When I used the new beta installer it asked me for an IP address or whether to use dhcp in the network setup part, maybe the older version doesn't, although at least if you install through the network it should. All these exist in unstable (and its not as unstable as its sounds. I am also using a lot of stuff even from experimental and the system is very stable). Mmmh... you can specify for each packages where it hast to come from (stable/testing/unstable)? You can use apt pinning to specify for each package although it can be a serious pain to mix stable with unstable, testing/unstable/experimental can be mixed. Personally I prefer unstable while keeping the experimental line in to manually solve some dependency issues cause sometimes with package upgrades (waiting a few days with the upgrades is another solution, I added experimental originally for X 4.3 when it was still only in experimental and just left it in). I don't like testing, its mostly a collection place for things when creating a new stable distribution more then something destined for everyday use. It also is slow in getting security updates or fixes to problems. The new things will never be in stable (maybe except for the couple of months following release until they get updated). Stable is too old for a desktop system, anyway. Should I change to unstable or is there another way to get it in testing? I would go for unstable personally but there seems to be some dispute in that matter. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
For example either of the following aptitude search console apt-cache search console config produces among other things: console-common - Basic infrastructure for text console configuration Nice hint, thanks. But network config shows too many entries... anyway, edit the interfaces works, too. Thats true, some things are harder/easier then others. Locales can be a problem for people new to linux, although IIRC the kde setup has something on these when you first start kde. I wanted to search for some man pages about locales with synaptic... but there is so much docu, I did not find it. I'll try it later with a filter search. Gosh, there are so many packages I hope there is a bigbigbig howto about that. If nothing helps I'll google. Changing the keyboard through X (xkb) is a bit more advanced (IIRC some if the gui X setup programs help you with that) but thats why both kde and gnome include the keyboard switching applets by default. Kde itself seems not to be the problem, only the missing LANG-settings or something like that. A menu which handles the calls for dpkg is urgently needed. Thats right, setup menus and utilities are not one of debian's strong points since when people get to the point when they can contribute it usually isn't the part that bothers them. Hopefully it will be the next project after the installer ;-) Maybe it helps that yast is (or will be) open source? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
dpgk-reconfigure is only required if you want to reconfigure a package. Packages remember the initial configurations so you need to configure them on upgrade only if a configuration option changed. The problem is that everything is within a package, but the relations are not always clear (console-common is not really what I expected). Locales have nothing to do with the keyboard. They control how things are displayed on screen. I don't know how to change keyboard in the console (I think console-tools or something like that), in X its in the XF86Config-4 file, using a variety of graphical configurators (very little experience with them I'm afraid), or using the gnome/kde keyboard switchers. Tell me what you want to set and we'll find out how. Isn't that the problem at all: sure, gimme enough time and I find out everything :-) You know, I reinstalled my pc, replaced suse by debian in the hope, that after a few hours I can continue work. That was wrong just because of so small things... keyboard layout, display charsets, mounting options... It is ok that you can specify each little peace that you want, but in this case you even *must*. A menu which handles the calls for dpkg is urgently needed. Where does X fail and what version? hopefully we can help you start it up. Its in two other threads: changing default display mgr and trouble installing kde. IIRC the installation process allows you to set that. Otherwise the settings are in /etc/network/interfaces. I am sure that there is a gui that does that but don't know any. No, installation did not allow me to change it. Maybe because a dhcp-server was found (?) All these exist in unstable (and its not as unstable as its sounds. I am also using a lot of stuff even from experimental and the system is very stable). Mmmh... you can specify for each packages where it hast to come from (stable/testing/unstable)? The new things will never be in stable (maybe except for the couple of months following release until they get updated). Stable is too old for a desktop system, anyway. Should I change to unstable or is there another way to get it in testing? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, J. Preiss wrote: I hope the new installer will care about these problems. I dont want to change back to suse. I dont want to pay just because of new kernel / new kde / new version of wah wah wah! debian is a community, a give-and-take not a product. If you don't like something about it you need to help fix it (By programming, bug reports, documentation etc.) If you are not willing or able to fix it you owe someone some money to fix it for you. As in every other aspect of life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, David Moreno Garza wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 15:30, W Paul Mills wrote: As in every other aspect of life, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Humm... He is a new debian user, and you want him to start fixing things immediately. He may never stick around that long. Give him a break! Yes, there are always people who forget these simple things when talking of/with new users. Perhaps you and Paul think I meant by fixing things that the original poster should start learning C and building packages etc. Far from it! There are many ways in which Debian can be helped which don't require programming. All it takes is a willingness to jump in. Back in 1997 I was a new user (not new to Linux though but still in the dark about a lot of things.) I was complaining about something or another on this very list. And the answer I got was exactly So why don't you fix it? And I did and here I am today. I didn't complain about the answer because that's what I and everyone else thought you were supposed to do. Somewhere down the line people have started thinking that Linux is a product and Debian is a vendor. Well it isn't and we aren't. There are vendors who have made products out of Linux and even Debian in particular but they ask for something else in return usually money. So when the original poster says that Suse is a product that fits his needs but he doesn't want to pay for it frankly I don't have much sympathy. It's not about complaining. Criticize all you want the stuff in Debian that deserves criticism. But back the complaints up with some action or it just looks like whining. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
It is great what you are doing. But the usability of debian itself... I get the feeling that I'm too stupid to use it. I do understand the installation stuff with apt-get, ok. If the package configures itself, it may works. But when I have to use dpk-reconfigure, I always wonder what the correct package cpuld be. And if I have an answer from the debian list, it only works partially. Example: dpkg-reconfigure locales. I can select [EMAIL PROTECTED], I can select this as default. Additionally I have selected all DE-sets and all RU-sets. At the end I have locales generated...l and my keyboard layout is english :-( (in text mode, X didn't want to start). Another thing is the network. Until now I dont know how to change from dhcp to static ip. Maybe I should rtfm, thats true, but on the other side: shouldnt it be as easy as clicking a button and enter the IP? It does not have to be graphical with buttons, but a small menu would be great. I hope the new installer will care about these problems. I dont want to change back to suse. I dont want to pay just because of new kernel / new kde / new version of -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
It is great what you are doing. But the usability of debian itself... I get the feeling that I'm too stupid to use it. I do understand the installation stuff with apt-get, ok. If the package configures itself, it may works. But when I have to use dpk-reconfigure, I always wonder what the correct package cpuld be. And if I have an answer from the debian list, it only works partially. Example: dpkg-reconfigure locales. I can select [EMAIL PROTECTED], I can select this as default. Additionally I have selected all DE-sets and all RU-sets. At the end I have locales generated...l and my keyboard layout is english :-( (in text mode, X didn't want to start). Another thing is the network. Until now I dont know how to change from dhcp to static ip. Maybe I should rtfm, thats true, but on the other side: shouldnt it be as easy as clicking a button and enter the IP? It does not have to be graphical with buttons, but a small menu would be great. I hope the new installer will care about these problems. I dont want to change back to suse. I dont want to pay just because of new kernel / new kde / new version of -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
Hello J. Preiss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dpkg-reconfigure locales. I can select [EMAIL PROTECTED], I can select this as default. Additionally I have selected all DE-sets and all RU-sets. At the end I have locales generated...l and my keyboard layout is english :-( dpkg-reconfigure console-common (in text mode, X didn't want to start). Check the log file (/var/lof/XFree86.0.log). Look for lines beginning with (EE). Another thing is the network. Until now I dont know how to change from dhcp to static ip. man interfaces apt-get install etherconf dpkg-reconfigure etherconf best regards Andreas Janssen -- Andreas Janssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP-Key-ID: 0xDC801674 ICQ #17079270 Registered Linux User #267976 http://www.andreas-janssen.de/debian-tipps.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
Thank you for these guidelines. I just wanted to mention how difficult it is to have all these commands in mind. At least for a beginner. Am Montag, 7. Juni 2004 17:17 schrieb Andreas Janssen: Hello J. Preiss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dpkg-reconfigure locales. I can select [EMAIL PROTECTED], I can select this as default. Additionally I have selected all DE-sets and all RU-sets. At the end I have locales generated...l and my keyboard layout is english :-( dpkg-reconfigure console-common (in text mode, X didn't want to start). Check the log file (/var/lof/XFree86.0.log). Look for lines beginning with (EE). Another thing is the network. Until now I dont know how to change from dhcp to static ip. man interfaces apt-get install etherconf dpkg-reconfigure etherconf best regards Andreas Janssen -- Andreas Janssen [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP-Key-ID: 0xDC801674 ICQ #17079270 Registered Linux User #267976 http://www.andreas-janssen.de/debian-tipps.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dear Debian Maintainers (usability)
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 04:47:56PM +0200, J. Preiss wrote: It is great what you are doing. But the usability of debian itself... I get the feeling that I'm too stupid to use it. I do understand the installation stuff with apt-get, ok. If the package configures itself, it may works. But when I have to use dpk-reconfigure, I always wonder what the correct package cpuld be. And if I have an answer from the debian list, it only works partially. dpgk-reconfigure is only required if you want to reconfigure a package. Packages remember the initial configurations so you need to configure them on upgrade only if a configuration option changed. Example: dpkg-reconfigure locales. I can select [EMAIL PROTECTED], I can select this as default. Additionally I have selected all DE-sets and all RU-sets. At the end I have locales generated...l and my keyboard layout is english :-( (in text Locales have nothing to do with the keyboard. They control how things are displayed on screen. I don't know how to change keyboard in the console (I think console-tools or something like that), in X its in the XF86Config-4 file, using a variety of graphical configurators (very little experience with them I'm afraid), or using the gnome/kde keyboard switchers. Tell me what you want to set and we'll find out how. mode, X didn't want to start). Where does X fail and what version? hopefully we can help you start it up. Another thing is the network. Until now I dont know how to change from dhcp to static ip. Maybe I should rtfm, thats true, but on the other side: shouldnt it be as easy as clicking a button and enter the IP? It does not have to be graphical with buttons, but a small menu would be great. IIRC the installation process allows you to set that. Otherwise the settings are in /etc/network/interfaces. I am sure that there is a gui that does that but don't know any. I hope the new installer will care about these problems. I dont want to change back to suse. I dont want to pay just because of new kernel / new kde / new version of All these exist in unstable (and its not as unstable as its sounds. I am also using a lot of stuff even from experimental and the system is very stable). The new things will never be in stable (maybe except for the couple of months following release until they get updated). suse is mostly comparable the unstable not to stable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
