Re: Kobo eReader and Linux Problems (WAS: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased)

2013-05-13 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Sun, 12 May 2013, Siard wrote:

> Patrick Bartek wrote:
> [about the Kobo Touch e-reader] 
> > Actually, I had read you don't have to create a Kobo account.  Just
> > click out of it. But it will pester you to set one up every time you
> > boot.
> 
> I created an account with a fake e-mail address (x...@xx.xx) which made
> it work and then never looked at it again.

If you don't want e-mail from Kobo, you can choose not to get it.  No
need for a fake e-mail address.  And as far as I can determine, Kobo
does not share your address.

> > Updates are automatic when you boot or sync.  I've found no why to
> > stop it.  You can delay it until the next boot, but not stop it.
> 
> I switched off the device's WiFi and never used Kobo Desktop, so it is
> not connected to the internet and never gets an automatic update.

Then the only way to get books on the device is with the microSD card,
and as I've said my ereader has problems with the card.

I don't use the Kobo Desktop either.  It's not really needed.  I just
log in to my account with a standard web browser, add books I want,
either paid or free, to my Library from Kobo's repsoitory, then download
them to the ereader's internal memory via "sync".  Of course, I need
wifi for that. And syncing updates the software, too, when there is one.
I can also do all that from the reader itself without the need of a
computer, but you need wifi, and sync IIRC is still run, so the reader
and your Kobo account on Kobo's server are the same.

> > It only got recognized as a USB device when I reset it to the
> > initial factory software, but the first upgrade stopped that.
> > There have been two upgrades since.  Nothing has changed.
> 
> You can't reset the device to the initial factory software and keep it
> away from the internet? DRM-free books can be added via USB or microSD
> card, and for adding DRM'ed books I have Adobe Digital Editions in
> Windows in VirtualBox.

I tried the factory reset, but there was such a considerable difference
in features, usability and performance between it and the first software
upgrade that I had to go with the newer software even if it meant
loosing the SD card access.

> BTW, I know ADE could be installed with Wine, but I haven't found out
> yet if and how Wine will work with USB.

I haven't messed with ADE yet.  There are plenty of free and non-free
epub books out there.

B


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Re: Kobo eReader and Linux Problems (WAS: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased)

2013-05-12 Thread Siard 
Patrick Bartek wrote:
[about the Kobo Touch e-reader] 
> Actually, I had read you don't have to create a Kobo account.  Just
> click out of it. But it will pester you to set one up every time you
> boot.

I created an account with a fake e-mail address (x...@xx.xx) which made
it work and then never looked at it again.

> Updates are automatic when you boot or sync.  I've found no why to
> stop it.  You can delay it until the next boot, but not stop it.

I switched off the device's WiFi and never used Kobo Desktop, so it is
not connected to the internet and never gets an automatic update.

> It only got recognized as a USB device when I reset it to the initial
> factory software, but the first upgrade stopped that.  There have been
> two upgrades since.  Nothing has changed.

You can't reset the device to the initial factory software and keep it
away from the internet? DRM-free books can be added via USB or microSD
card, and for adding DRM'ed books I have Adobe Digital Editions in
Windows in VirtualBox.
BTW, I know ADE could be installed with Wine, but I haven't found out
yet if and how Wine will work with USB.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-10 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Fri, 10 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Mi, 08 mai 13, 15:31:54, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > 
> > Partitioning isn't the problem.  It's space.  The HD is only 12GB.
> > I have 2.8GB for W2k, 256MB for swap, and about 8.5 left for Linux.
> > Three primary partitions.  The problem is the Windows partition
> > where I'd put the Debian ISO file only has about 500MB (maybe less)
> > free.  So, I guess, a net-install-sized ISO is my only option.
> 
> Take the mini.iso ;)

I think goodbye-microsoft.com is the way to go.  It downloads all
necessary files for the installation directly from the appropriate
repository on the fly, kinda the way Gentoo does with their binary
install. Very little Linux stuff is actually stored on the Windows
partition.

Have to run a test in a VM first before doing it for real.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-10 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Mi, 08 mai 13, 15:31:54, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> Partitioning isn't the problem.  It's space.  The HD is only 12GB.  I
> have 2.8GB for W2k, 256MB for swap, and about 8.5 left for Linux.
> Three primary partitions.  The problem is the Windows partition where
> I'd put the Debian ISO file only has about 500MB (maybe less) free.  So,
> I guess, a net-install-sized ISO is my only option.

Take the mini.iso ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Kobo eReader and Linux Problems (WAS: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased)

2013-05-09 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Thu, 09 May 2013, Siard wrote:

> Patrick Bartek:
> > Siard:
> > > I've got a Kobo Glo.  When connected via USB, the 'Connect'
> > > interface immediately shows up, also with Linux.  Looks like they
> > > did already fix it.
> > 
> > I have the Touch model, purchased last year, and even with the
> > latest software--updated yesterday to 2.5.1--it doesn't with Linux,
> > but does with Windows and OSX. With Linux, the 'Connect' interface
> > flashes for less than a second like it always has, then
> > disappears.  Even 'lsusb' from the command line doesn't list it.
> > This is a known and persistent problem.  Consider yourself
> > fortunate that yours works.
> 
> Yet, googling around, I haven't yet seen usb problems reported with
> the Kobo Touch and Linux.  E.g., this is what I find at
> www.darkcoding.net/misc/kobo-ereader-touch-on-ubuntu-linux/ :

I did most of my investigating on the Kobo forums.  Although, as I
remember, I got plenty of "hits" with simple Yahoo searches.

> It's a USB device.
> 
> 1. Plug it in to your Ubuntu machine (or probably any modern Linux
>distro). It shows up as a USB storage device.
> 2. Drag and drop books in any supported format onto it.
> 3. Unplug, switch on, read books.

It only got recognized as a USB device when I reset it to the initial
factory software, but the first upgrade stopped that.  There have been
two upgrades since.  Nothing has changed.  And I've tried it on half a
dozen or more versions of Linux (Fedora 12, Debian Etch & Wheezy,
PCLinuxOS, Puppy, DSL, others) on 3 or so separate systems. Same
results. But is recognized perfectly with Windows as old as 2000 Pro on
a 12 year old Thinkpad, or an iMac as new as today.

> It's that simple. If you had a solid-state MP3 player (before your
> phone played them), this will feel familiar.
> 
> The setup software is Win / Mac only, but you don't need it. When you
> start the device, it insists that you run the setup software. You
> don't have to. As far as I can tell, the setup does two things:
> 
> * Forces you to create a kobobooks.com account. Lame.
> * Updates the software on the device.

Actually, I had read you don't have to create a Kobo account.  Just
click out of it. But it will pester you to set one up every time you
boot.

Updates are automatic when you boot or sync.  I've found no why to stop
it.  You can delay it until the next boot, but not stop it.

> For this reason you might want to find a Windows or Mac machine at
> some point.

I have an old Thinkpad 240X with W2k I use.  Cheaper than a Mac. ;-)

> 
> Perhaps some udev problem?  You could try a second distro to see if
> that works.

Been there.  Done that.  Same-Oh.  Same-Oh

I'm beginning to think my Kobo has some hardware issues.  Just today, I
was testing the microSD card option, and surprisingly, it worked.
Recognized the card and the several epub books I had copied onto it,
but as soon as I tried to access them or do anything like bring up the
"Setting" page, the reader reported the card had been removed and to
reinsert.  Nothing of the sort was done.  Bad SD card reader?  If so,
I've got a $97 + tax door stop. Well, it works fine with just the
internal memory.  Enough to store something like a thousand books.

B


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RE: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Mark Allums 
 On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 05:03:42PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> 
> > Anyone who runs Wine can install Adobe Digital Editions, which will allow
> > download of compatible files without the Kobo software.  Also, the
> Debian
> > version of the Kobo software runs fine on 32-bit, I have it installed on
> > my AMD64 machine via multiarch.  A recent .deb is available out there, it
> > is available quite perfectly legitimately.  I should post a link, but I
> > don't have it available ATM.  Googling about tangential topics will locate
> > it, if a straightforward search fails to turn it up.  No stripping of DRM
> > necessary, so US users need not feel uncomfortable about this, although it
> > is possible to do so if truly desired.  I will refrain from instructing
> > anyone on how to do *that*.
> 
> Much simpler solution: just don't buy DRM-corrupted books. I buy my
> ebooks
> from Baen, O'Reilly, Tor and the other non-offenders.

I try to do that as much as possible, but it isn't easy.  Note, Baen is now 
drinking from the Amazon Kool-Aid, although still without DRM.




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RE: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Mark Allums 
> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Mark Allums  wrote:
> >> DRM ebooks will not work that way (unless you strip them of course),
> >> and the publishing industry has not yet followed the music industry on
> >> DRM
> >
> > Anyone who runs Wine can install Adobe Digital Editions, which will allow
> download of compatible files without the Kobo software.  Also, the Debian
> version of the Kobo software runs fine on 32-bit, I have it installed on my
> AMD64 machine via multiarch.  A recent .deb is available out there, it is
> available quite perfectly legitimately.  I should post a link, but I don't 
> have it
> available ATM.  Googling about tangential topics will locate it, if a
> straightforward search fails to turn it up.  No stripping of DRM necessary, so
> US users need not feel uncomfortable about this, although it is possible to
> do so if truly desired.  I will refrain from instructing anyone on how to do
> *that*.
> 
> 
> Wow, I figured they where going to make a linux version, since it is
> in QT4, but I had never seen such a thing!
> http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82378&page=14
> http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82378&page=22
> 
> I am not sure how I missed it, as it is quite old?!
> 
> Thanks!

De nada!  I believe that the version I have dates from Jan. or Feb. of 2013, so 
check your version, since that thread on mobileread was started in 2011 
(although the most recent posts are from April of this year.)

Note also that Kobo.com *does* sell many books that are not DRMed, so any 
reader that can handle .epubs can open those, and you can find a lot to read 
while staying loyal to Kobo.  I honestly don't understand exactly why they have 
not released an official version yet, but I suppose they are waiting for some 
magic moment when they deem Linux to be "ready" for prime time.  In the 
meantime, I will happily play with the unofficial & unsupported version on 
Debian and support them a little bit financially to keep them motivated and 
working on it.  I have discovered that I like .epub better than .azw, and I 
like to root for the underdog.  Amazon is the 800-lb. gorilla.  



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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Carl Fink 
On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 05:03:42PM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:

> Anyone who runs Wine can install Adobe Digital Editions, which will allow
> download of compatible files without the Kobo software.  Also, the Debian
> version of the Kobo software runs fine on 32-bit, I have it installed on
> my AMD64 machine via multiarch.  A recent .deb is available out there, it
> is available quite perfectly legitimately.  I should post a link, but I
> don't have it available ATM.  Googling about tangential topics will locate
> it, if a straightforward search fails to turn it up.  No stripping of DRM
> necessary, so US users need not feel uncomfortable about this, although it
> is possible to do so if truly desired.  I will refrain from instructing
> anyone on how to do *that*.

Much simpler solution: just don't buy DRM-corrupted books. I buy my ebooks
from Baen, O'Reilly, Tor and the other non-offenders.
-- 
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Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Kelly Clowers 
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Mark Allums  wrote:
>> DRM ebooks will not work that way (unless you strip them of course),
>> and the publishing industry has not yet followed the music industry on
>> DRM
>
> Anyone who runs Wine can install Adobe Digital Editions, which will allow 
> download of compatible files without the Kobo software.  Also, the Debian 
> version of the Kobo software runs fine on 32-bit, I have it installed on my 
> AMD64 machine via multiarch.  A recent .deb is available out there, it is 
> available quite perfectly legitimately.  I should post a link, but I don't 
> have it available ATM.  Googling about tangential topics will locate it, if a 
> straightforward search fails to turn it up.  No stripping of DRM necessary, 
> so US users need not feel uncomfortable about this, although it is possible 
> to do so if truly desired.  I will refrain from instructing anyone on how to 
> do *that*.


Wow, I figured they where going to make a linux version, since it is
in QT4, but I had never seen such a thing!
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82378&page=14
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82378&page=22

I am not sure how I missed it, as it is quite old?!

Thanks!


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RE: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Mark Allums 
> DRM ebooks will not work that way (unless you strip them of course),
> and the publishing industry has not yet followed the music industry on
> DRM

Anyone who runs Wine can install Adobe Digital Editions, which will allow 
download of compatible files without the Kobo software.  Also, the Debian 
version of the Kobo software runs fine on 32-bit, I have it installed on my 
AMD64 machine via multiarch.  A recent .deb is available out there, it is 
available quite perfectly legitimately.  I should post a link, but I don't have 
it available ATM.  Googling about tangential topics will locate it, if a 
straightforward search fails to turn it up.  No stripping of DRM necessary, so 
US users need not feel uncomfortable about this, although it is possible to do 
so if truly desired.  I will refrain from instructing anyone on how to do 
*that*.




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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Kelly Clowers 
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Siard  wrote:
> Patrick Bartek:
>> Siard:
>> > I've got a Kobo Glo.  When connected via USB, the 'Connect'
>> > interface immediately shows up, also with Linux.  Looks like they
>> > did already fix it.
>>
>> I have the Touch model, purchased last year, and even with the latest
>> software--updated yesterday to 2.5.1--it doesn't with Linux, but does
>> with Windows and OSX. With Linux, the 'Connect' interface flashes for
>> less than a second like it always has, then disappears.  Even 'lsusb'
>> from the command line doesn't list it. This is a known and persistent
>> problem.  Consider yourself fortunate that yours works.
>
> Yet, googling around, I haven't yet seen usb problems reported with the
> Kobo Touch and Linux.  E.g., this is what I find at
> www.darkcoding.net/misc/kobo-ereader-touch-on-ubuntu-linux/ :
>
> It's a USB device.
>
> 1. Plug it in to your Ubuntu machine (or probably any modern Linux
>distro). It shows up as a USB storage device.
> 2. Drag and drop books in any supported format onto it.
> 3. Unplug, switch on, read books.
>
> It's that simple. If you had a solid-state MP3 player (before your
> phone played them), this will feel familiar.

DRM ebooks will not work that way (unless you strip them of course),
and the publishing industry has not yet followed the music industry on
DRM

And in my experience using direct file transfer or Calibre does not
have good odds of showing up correctly in the Kobo. Not there or
missing covers (even if they were there in Calibre). Maybe that is
just when mixing DRM and non-DRM? I know the dir structure used
natively by Kobo is totally screwy.

>
> The setup software is Win / Mac only, but you don't need it. When you
> start the device, it insists that you run the setup software. You don't
> have to. As far as I can tell, the setup does two things:
>
> * Forces you to create a kobobooks.com account. Lame.

I buy most of my books from there, so it isn't lame.

What is lame is how often sync and upgrades fails, especially (but far
from exclusively) on Wine. But I have rarely had any issue with the
simple mass storage aspect on Linux.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Siard 
Patrick Bartek:
> Siard:
> > I've got a Kobo Glo.  When connected via USB, the 'Connect'
> > interface immediately shows up, also with Linux.  Looks like they
> > did already fix it.
> 
> I have the Touch model, purchased last year, and even with the latest
> software--updated yesterday to 2.5.1--it doesn't with Linux, but does
> with Windows and OSX. With Linux, the 'Connect' interface flashes for
> less than a second like it always has, then disappears.  Even 'lsusb'
> from the command line doesn't list it. This is a known and persistent
> problem.  Consider yourself fortunate that yours works.

Yet, googling around, I haven't yet seen usb problems reported with the
Kobo Touch and Linux.  E.g., this is what I find at
www.darkcoding.net/misc/kobo-ereader-touch-on-ubuntu-linux/ :

It's a USB device.

1. Plug it in to your Ubuntu machine (or probably any modern Linux
   distro). It shows up as a USB storage device.
2. Drag and drop books in any supported format onto it.
3. Unplug, switch on, read books.

It's that simple. If you had a solid-state MP3 player (before your
phone played them), this will feel familiar.

The setup software is Win / Mac only, but you don't need it. When you
start the device, it insists that you run the setup software. You don't
have to. As far as I can tell, the setup does two things:

* Forces you to create a kobobooks.com account. Lame.
* Updates the software on the device.

For this reason you might want to find a Windows or Mac machine at some
point.


Perhaps some udev problem?  You could try a second distro to see if that
works.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Thu, 09 May 2013, Siard wrote:

> Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > Guess I'll keep pestering Kobo until they "fix" it.
> 
> I've got a Kobo Glo.  When connected via USB, the 'Connect' interface
> immediately shows up, also with Linux.  Looks like they did already
> fix it.

I have the Touch model, purchased last year, and even with the latest
software--updated yesterday to 2.5.1--it doesn't with Linux, but does
with Windows and OSX. With Linux, the 'Connect' interface flashes for
less than a second like it always has, then disappears.  Even 'lsusb'
from the command line doesn't list it. This is a known and persistent
problem.  Consider yourself fortunate that yours works.

It also has a problem when a microSD card is in the slot.  This is a
known problem with all Kobos, too, not just with the Touch.  However, I
haven't had time to test if the latest update has solved it.  But I
doubt it.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-09 Thread Siard 
Patrick Bartek wrote:
> Guess I'll keep pestering Kobo until they "fix" it.

I've got a Kobo Glo.  When connected via USB, the 'Connect' interface
immediately shows up, also with Linux.  Looks like they did already fix
it.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Wed, 08 May 2013, Mark Allums wrote:

> and my Kobo Touch eReader absolutely
> > refuses to interface with Linux or even Windows XP running in
> > VirtualBox.  Kind of hypocritcal of Kobo since the OS that drives
> > the reader is Linux.
> > 
> > B
> 
> 
> There is a .deb available unofficially for Kobo from Kobo.  They will
> send you a dropbox link for it if you ask nicely, or you can Google
> around for it.  They seem to be nice guys in the US tech support, so
> don't berate them too much.  

I'm always polite.  Just every couple of months, I e-mail customer
support a reminder: "Linux support yet?"  Their reply is usually "no"
or "we're working on it."

> A reasonably up-to-date Debian will treat an ereader as an mp3
> player, and you can move files on an off of it.  you need the MTP
> driver installed. 

Good to know.  I'll check it out.

I simply don't know why Kobo excluded Linux to begin with.  The device
connects as a mass storage device on Windows and OSX.  (And used to on
Linux until they updated the OS last year.)  Also, I discovered quite by
accident, it will sometimes, if you leave it connected for 20 minutes
or so. However, once, or if, it's fully charged, it won't. Strange.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Rob Hurle 
On 9 May 2013 08:31, Patrick Bartek  wrote:

>
> I think you've got me mixed up with someone else here.  Oh!  You mean
> my Kobo eReader.  Yeah.  It doesn't like Linux.  Doesn't show up at
> all, either as a mass storage or anything else, when connected via
> USB.  When first connected, the reader checks for Windows or OSX, and
> if they're not there, the "connect" interface doesn't come up.  And
> you can't manually mount it.  I've tried.  As far as the OS is
> concerned, it's not there.
>
> Guess I'll keep pestering Kobo until they "fix" it.
>

If you use Calibre (download it from the calibre site, don't use the Debian
package version as it's too old) then your kobo will be recognised.

Cheers,
Rob Hurle
-- 
-
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ANU, College of Asia and the Pacific
School of Culture, History and Language
Histories of Asia and the Pacific
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Wed, 08 May 2013, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> Le 07.05.2013 23:23, Patrick Bartek a écrit :
> > Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
> > boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
> > Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
> > said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, 
> > all
> > other drives are externals.
> 
> I understand that kind of problems. My old computer have a CD reader
> so it was not too hard... (I had some problems anyway, but I was able
> to quickly fix them)
> 
> But you can install a system from an ISO quite easily if a system
> which support boot customizations is installed (like, by example,
> Debian).

You can now install Linux from within Windows.  I checked into it a
year or so ago.  And since the notebook is already partitioned for both
Debian and W2k, I could install any Linux I wanted on it without
the need of booting from a CD or thumb drive.

However, right now, I'm trying to fix a friend's Aspire One that was
badly infected, and after a "factory reset", which failed, is now in a
useless Windows 7 Starter boot loop.  I think the malware altered
files in the Recovery partition or the factory reset procedure has a
bug.  So, I don't have the time to play with MY toys right now.  

> I did it some times, and I have noticed various issues depending on 
> your boot loader and partition scheme.

Partitioning isn't the problem.  It's space.  The HD is only 12GB.  I
have 2.8GB for W2k, 256MB for swap, and about 8.5 left for Linux.
Three primary partitions.  The problem is the Windows partition where
I'd put the Debian ISO file only has about 500MB (maybe less) free.  So,
I guess, a net-install-sized ISO is my only option.

> [big snip]
> 
> 
> Of course, you can also buy new hardware, but it is not sure it will 
> fit your needs (you said something does not work on linux and windows 
> XP? I doubt it will work with windows 8 :D ) and, is not it less
> fun? ;) (I understand however that people do not think tinkering with
> their OS is fun, and you might be in such situation. Sometimes,
> people just wants/needs something which just works.)

I think you've got me mixed up with someone else here.  Oh!  You mean
my Kobo eReader.  Yeah.  It doesn't like Linux.  Doesn't show up at
all, either as a mass storage or anything else, when connected via
USB.  When first connected, the reader checks for Windows or OSX, and
if they're not there, the "connect" interface doesn't come up.  And
you can't manually mount it.  I've tried.  As far as the OS is
concerned, it's not there.

Guess I'll keep pestering Kobo until they "fix" it.

B


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RE: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Mark Allums 
and my Kobo Touch eReader absolutely
> refuses to interface with Linux or even Windows XP running in
> VirtualBox.  Kind of hypocritcal of Kobo since the OS that drives
> the reader is Linux.
> 
> B


There is a .deb available unofficially for Kobo from Kobo.  They will send you 
a dropbox link for it if you ask nicely, or you can Google around for it.  They 
seem to be nice guys in the US tech support, so don't berate them too much.  

A reasonably up-to-date Debian will treat an ereader as an mp3 player, and you 
can move files on an off of it.  you need the MTP driver installed. 




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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Dom 

On 08/05/13 06:05, Patrick Bartek wrote:


FWIW, when I originally thought of installing Linux on the Thinkpad 7
years ago, and noted the inherent problems, I did tried several
floppy-based boot managers/utilities, but none of them worked.  The
external CD drive was either never recognized or was inaccessable: The
install CD never booted. So, I looked for distros that had a boot
floppy option. Debian Sarge was the winner.


That was the reason I started using Debian. It was the only distro I 
could find that would install from floppy on my Toshiba Libretto CT70 
alongside the windows 95 I was using on it at the time, and work "out of 
the box" with the network card and most of the other hardware. It was 
Potato that I stared with.


I also managed to patch and compile a kernel module to support the weird 
PCMCIA floppy drive that it used.


I did get X working after some searching and experimenting, but mostly 
used it for command line stuff. :)

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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Wed, 08 May 2013, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> 
> 
> Le 08.05.2013 09:48, Helmut Wollmersdorfer a écrit :
> > Am 07.05.2013 um 23:23 schrieb Patrick Bartek:
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
> >> boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
> >> Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
> >> said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, 
> >> all
> >> other drives are externals.
> >
> > You can try to install from Windows.
> >
> > This method is convenient and saves your time (no need to prepare
> > install media).
> >
> > Helmut Wollmersdorfer
> 
> As far as I know, windows needs the installation CD? Last time I
> tried, I needed to insert the CD, but maybe this is no longer
> required ?

I've read it can easily be done directly from the install ISO file on
the hard drive.  No CD or DVD needed.  No optical drive needed either.

B 


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Wed, 08 May 2013, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:

> 
> 
> Am 07.05.2013 um 23:23 schrieb Patrick Bartek:
> >
> > Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
> > boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
> > Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
> > said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive,
> > all other drives are externals.
> 
> You can try to install from Windows.
> 
> This method is convenient and saves your time (no need to prepare  
> install media).

As far as I can remember, this option was not even possible 7 years ago
when I initially installed Sarge.  Now, it is, but due to the age of
the notebook, which still works as it is, I don't know if it's worth the
effort.

B  


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Richard Owlett 

berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Le 07.05.2013 23:23, Patrick Bartek a écrit :

Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that
matter.
Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard
drive.  (I
said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the
hard drive, all
other drives are externals.


I understand that kind of problems. My old computer have a
CD reader so it was not too hard... (I had some problems
anyway, but I was able to quickly fix them)

But you can install a system from an ISO quite easily if a
system which support boot customizations is installed (like,
by example, Debian).

I did it some times, and I have noticed various issues
depending on your boot loader and partition scheme.

For boot loader, it depends if the installed version is able
to directly boot an ISO or not. If yes, things are made
simpler. If not, you can anyway use a gentoo-like method for
installation: boot your system, create a partition for the
future system, make a chroot and do your installation job
from it (I have never tried that with Debian, but gentoo
have a description about how to install gentoo from another
distro, which might be adapted to your needs).

For partition schemes, there are few things I have noticed
to help:
* obviously, if you have a /home partition, it helps because
you can split it to create space for the future system,
which allows you to keep a working and reliable system
* if /boot is on it's own partition and if there is enough
space, you can copy there the installation ISO and configure
your boot loader to boot it. Grub is able to boot ISOs IIRC.
* if you can manage enough space in a new partition, you can
dd the ISO on a dedicated partition and boot that partition.

Every time I did such experimentations (I guess, 6-8 in 2
years... I love to destroy my systems, and I never look at
where I am doing it :D) it took me some times and readings
to achieve my goals, but I am a beginner with linux stuff
(*and* a tinkerer, which explains why my system broke so
often ;) ).
But every times I was able to have a fully working system.

Maybe I should redo that for fun tomorrow and write the
steps somewhere, in case it might help someone...

[snip]


I think such a writeup would be valuable.



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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread berenger . morel 



Le 08.05.2013 09:48, Helmut Wollmersdorfer a écrit :

Am 07.05.2013 um 23:23 schrieb Patrick Bartek:


Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, 
all

other drives are externals.


You can try to install from Windows.

This method is convenient and saves your time (no need to prepare
install media).

Helmut Wollmersdorfer


As far as I know, windows needs the installation CD? Last time I tried, 
I needed to insert the CD, but maybe this is no longer required ?



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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread berenger . morel 

Le 07.05.2013 23:23, Patrick Bartek a écrit :

Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, 
all

other drives are externals.


I understand that kind of problems. My old computer have a CD reader so 
it was not too hard... (I had some problems anyway, but I was able to 
quickly fix them)


But you can install a system from an ISO quite easily if a system which 
support boot customizations is installed (like, by example, Debian).


I did it some times, and I have noticed various issues depending on 
your boot loader and partition scheme.


For boot loader, it depends if the installed version is able to 
directly boot an ISO or not. If yes, things are made simpler. If not, 
you can anyway use a gentoo-like method for installation: boot your 
system, create a partition for the future system, make a chroot and do 
your installation job from it (I have never tried that with Debian, but 
gentoo have a description about how to install gentoo from another 
distro, which might be adapted to your needs).


For partition schemes, there are few things I have noticed to help:
* obviously, if you have a /home partition, it helps because you can 
split it to create space for the future system, which allows you to keep 
a working and reliable system
* if /boot is on it's own partition and if there is enough space, you 
can copy there the installation ISO and configure your boot loader to 
boot it. Grub is able to boot ISOs IIRC.
* if you can manage enough space in a new partition, you can dd the ISO 
on a dedicated partition and boot that partition.


Every time I did such experimentations (I guess, 6-8 in 2 years... I 
love to destroy my systems, and I never look at where I am doing it :D) 
it took me some times and readings to achieve my goals, but I am a 
beginner with linux stuff (*and* a tinkerer, which explains why my 
system broke so often ;) ).

But every times I was able to have a fully working system.

Maybe I should redo that for fun tomorrow and write the steps 
somewhere, in case it might help someone...



Of course, you can also buy new hardware, but it is not sure it will 
fit your needs (you said something does not work on linux and windows 
XP? I doubt it will work with windows 8 :D ) and, is not it less fun? ;) 
(I understand however that people do not think tinkering with their OS 
is fun, and you might be in such situation. Sometimes, people just 
wants/needs something which just works.)



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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-08 Thread Helmut Wollmersdorfer 



Am 07.05.2013 um 23:23 schrieb Patrick Bartek:


Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, all
other drives are externals.


You can try to install from Windows.

This method is convenient and saves your time (no need to prepare  
install media).


Helmut Wollmersdorfer


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-07 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Wed, 08 May 2013, Dom wrote:

> On 07/05/13 22:23, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Tue, 07 May 2013, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
> > boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
> > Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
> > said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive,
> > all other drives are externals.
> 
> Having worked with even more ancient hardware, may I suggest you try
> the PLOP boot manager for installation? It can be put on a floppy and 
> supports boot from various devices even when the BIOS doesn't support 
> them. I used it to boot the Wheezy installer from a USB stick on a 
> Pentium MMX 166MHz sub-notebook with 32MB of memory and 2GB hard
> drive. I only just managed to get it to install by allocating a swap
> partition in the early stages of the install. But it did work :)

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll look into it.  Although, I think it's
about time I just get a new Thinkpad. ;-)

FWIW, when I originally thought of installing Linux on the Thinkpad 7
years ago, and noted the inherent problems, I did tried several
floppy-based boot managers/utilities, but none of them worked.  The
external CD drive was either never recognized or was inaccessable: The
install CD never booted. So, I looked for distros that had a boot
floppy option. Debian Sarge was the winner.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-07 Thread Dom 

On 07/05/13 22:23, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Tue, 07 May 2013, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, all
other drives are externals.


Having worked with even more ancient hardware, may I suggest you try the 
PLOP boot manager for installation? It can be put on a floppy and 
supports boot from various devices even when the BIOS doesn't support 
them. I used it to boot the Wheezy installer from a USB stick on a 
Pentium MMX 166MHz sub-notebook with 32MB of memory and 2GB hard drive. 
I only just managed to get it to install by allocating a swap partition 
in the early stages of the install. But it did work :)



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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-07 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Tue, 07 May 2013, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:

> 
> 
> Le 06.05.2013 19:55, Patrick Bartek a écrit :
> > On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> >> [forgot I wanted to comment on the other paragraph as well]
> >>
> >> On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
> >> > few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
> >> > "Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new
> >> > "Stable".  I ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and
> >> > Lenny.  Amazingly, it still worked. And still does. However, I
> >> > never 'apt-get upgraded' again for fear of trashing it.
> >>
> >> It should be possible to upgrade it completely to lenny and then
> >> squeeze and then wheezy. Reading the corresponding Release Notes is
> >> strongly recommended.
> >
> > Possible?  Theoretically, yes.  But, practically, I doubt it.  The
> > system is a 12 year old Thinkpad 240X with a 500MHz Pentium and
> > 192MB of RAM. When booting is complete and only the desktop (XFCE)
> > is running,
> > it uses about 125MB of RAM. I don't think it has the resources for
> > anything more advance than Etch really.  And then there's the
> > problem of
> > drivers for the old hardware.
> >
> > B
> 
> I have a very old computer too. I will not claim to use it on a daily 
> basis of course (I have only 2 arms, so I can not manage all my 3 
> keyboards :p) but it is running perfectly on what is now old-stable.
> I think I will use that box as a jukebox when I'll be able to pass
> some network cables in my walls.
> 
> When I took possession of that computer, there were 64MB of RAM, a
> 10GB hard-drive, a windows 2000 NT OS and a sticker (is it the good
> word?) which claimed it is "designed for windows Me". I think it
> gives you an idea of the power of that thing... Now, I've replaced
> the HD by a 40 or 80 GB one (I do not remember exactly) and have
> added 128MB or ram (so, it now have 192MB) and it works correctly.
> 
> However, I did not installed XFCE, but i3, and no desktop
> environment, as on all my systems. So, I think you could at least try
> to clean the installation, maybe first try on a live cd :)

Unfortunately, the Thinkpad 240X we're discussing here can't
boot directly off a CD or even a USB thumb drive for that matter.
Natively, it can only boot off a floppy or internal hard drive.  (I
said this thing was ancient. ;-) )  And except for the hard drive, all
other drives are externals.

Due to its age, small screen (800x600), dead (mostly) batteries which
are no longer available, and to refurbish would cost 8 times more than
the notebook is worth ($15 to $25 on eBay, if you can find it at all.
Sold new for about $2500!), it's seen better days. I keep it around as
it dual boots Windows 2000 Pro, and my Kobo Touch eReader absolutely
refuses to interface with Linux or even Windows XP running in
VirtualBox.  Kind of hypocritcal of Kobo since the OS that drives
the reader is Linux.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-07 Thread Morel Bérenger 
Le Mar 7 mai 2013 14:41, Chris Bannister a écrit :
> On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 01:54:30AM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org
> wrote:
>
>> I have a very old computer too. I will not claim to use it on a
>> daily basis of course (I have only 2 arms, so I can not manage all my 3
>> keyboards :p)
>
> Ahhh!, but you could ssh into 2 computers from your 3rd computer
> and then you only need one keyboard and one monitor. :q)  :)

Of course :)
I am using ssh a lot, even if I do not really configure it correctly (I
should take some time to do that, but it's not my only thing to learn
btw).

> I'm assuming they are all connected via a network, which is a bit bold,
> but these days with cheap hubs and switches around it would be a bit
> unusual if they weren't connected.

You missed this phrase: "I will use that box [...] when I'll be able to
pass some network cables in my walls." ;)

My 2 "recent" computers (3 and 2 years still sound recent for me) are
connected to the home network, one by wi-fi, the other through a cable,
but not the old one: I do not want "running cables" and I can not
currently install a good old ethernet cable to link my (8 years old but
still working like a charm) switch to the damned future jukebox. Or maybe
I will make it a firewall. Or a file storage. Or an old gaming plat-form
(it still have old joystick connection, and I still have some old
joysticks). Or more than one of those usages... I'm still undecided :)
I simply now that it will be used, and this, thanks to Debian which is
able to be quite lightweight when you take some time to remove useless
packages.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-07 Thread Jochen Spieker 
Andrei POPESCU:
> On Lu, 06 mai 13, 10:43:02, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>> 
>>> Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective wisdom
>>> on this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and 'dist-upgrade'
>>> only if really required (e.g. packages not upgraded).
>> 
>>http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting
> 
> Not anymore (hint: it's a wiki, so I took the liberty to change it).

Thanks a lot! This advice needs a lot of repeating, judging from the
many questions and myths about upgrade vs- dist-upgrade.

J.
-- 
No-one appears to be able to help me.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread berenger . morel 



Le 06.05.2013 19:55, Patrick Bartek a écrit :

On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:


[forgot I wanted to comment on the other paragraph as well]

On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>
> I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
> few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
> "Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new
> "Stable".  I ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and
> Lenny.  Amazingly, it still worked. And still does. However, I
> never 'apt-get upgraded' again for fear of trashing it.

It should be possible to upgrade it completely to lenny and then
squeeze and then wheezy. Reading the corresponding Release Notes is
strongly recommended.


Possible?  Theoretically, yes.  But, practically, I doubt it.  The
system is a 12 year old Thinkpad 240X with a 500MHz Pentium and 192MB
of RAM. When booting is complete and only the desktop (XFCE) is 
running,

it uses about 125MB of RAM. I don't think it has the resources for
anything more advance than Etch really.  And then there's the problem 
of

drivers for the old hardware.

B


I have a very old computer too. I will not claim to use it on a daily 
basis of course (I have only 2 arms, so I can not manage all my 3 
keyboards :p) but it is running perfectly on what is now old-stable. I 
think I will use that box as a jukebox when I'll be able to pass some 
network cables in my walls.


When I took possession of that computer, there were 64MB of RAM, a 10GB 
hard-drive, a windows 2000 NT OS and a sticker (is it the good word?) 
which claimed it is "designed for windows Me". I think it gives you an 
idea of the power of that thing... Now, I've replaced the HD by a 40 or 
80 GB one (I do not remember exactly) and have added 128MB or ram (so, 
it now have 192MB) and it works correctly.


However, I did not installed XFCE, but i3, and no desktop environment, 
as on all my systems. So, I think you could at least try to clean the 
installation, maybe first try on a live cd :)



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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Lu, 06 mai 13, 10:43:02, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > 
> > > Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective
> > > wisdom on this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and
> > > 'dist-upgrade' only if really required (e.g. packages not
> > > upgraded).
> > 
> >http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting
> 
> Not anymore (hint: it's a wiki, so I took the liberty to change it).

From my reading, other than this wiki, 'dist-upgrade' is the
"recommended" method for upgrading Testing as it progresses toward
Stable. At which point, if you decide to stay with it as Stable, you
switch to 'upgrade'. Your sources should have been set to the release's
name and not 'testing', if this was your ultimate intention.  If,
however, you're staying with Testing, that is, your apt sources are set
to 'testing', you would continue to use 'dist-upgrade', and for all
practical purposes, Testing becomes a "rolling" release, of sorts.

Of course, this is a general recommendation.  I'm sure there are plenty
of exceptions.  But note:  I used 'dist-upgrade' for months without
problems as Wheezy progressed toward its stable designation.  Now that
it is, I will use 'upgrade' instead.  My apt sources have always been
set to "wheezy".

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Lu, 06 mai 13, 10:43:02, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > 
> > Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective wisdom
> > on this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and 'dist-upgrade'
> > only if really required (e.g. packages not upgraded).
> 
>http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting

Not anymore (hint: it's a wiki, so I took the liberty to change it).
 
Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> [forgot I wanted to comment on the other paragraph as well]
> 
> On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > 
> > I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
> > few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
> > "Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new
> > "Stable".  I ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and
> > Lenny.  Amazingly, it still worked. And still does. However, I
> > never 'apt-get upgraded' again for fear of trashing it.
> 
> It should be possible to upgrade it completely to lenny and then
> squeeze and then wheezy. Reading the corresponding Release Notes is
> strongly recommended.

Possible?  Theoretically, yes.  But, practically, I doubt it.  The
system is a 12 year old Thinkpad 240X with a 500MHz Pentium and 192MB
of RAM. When booting is complete and only the desktop (XFCE) is running,
it uses about 125MB of RAM. I don't think it has the resources for
anything more advance than Etch really.  And then there's the problem of
drivers for the old hardware.

B 


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Mon, 06 May 2013, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > 
> > All that's required now is to cease using 'dist-upgrade' for
> > upgrading. Dist-upgrade was recommended in the user install manual
> > while Wheezy was still Testing. Now, that it's Stable, 'upgrade' is
> > the recommended method.
> 
> Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective wisdom
> on this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and 'dist-upgrade'
> only if really required (e.g. packages not upgraded).

   http://wiki.debian.org/DebianTesting

This now refers to Jessie, since its the new Testing, instead of
Wheezy, but otherwise it is the same, and ONLY applies when upgrading a
Testing status OS.

After reading this I did some more research--I no longer have those
links--and it was recommended to use 'dist-upgrade' for upgrading while
the OS is still Testing to be assured that it is fully upgraded, which
'upgrade' can fail to do, then when it becomes Stable to revert to
'upgrade' to maintain its "stable" state.

At least, that's my understanding of the process.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Sun, 05 May 2013, Carl Fink wrote:

> On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 07:30:00PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> > I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
> > few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
> > "Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new
> > "Stable".  I ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and
> > Lenny.  Amazingly, it still worked. And still does. However, I
> > never 'apt-get upgraded' again for fear of trashing it.
> 
> That's really odd. Reinstalling Debian from scratch only takes an
> hour at most, after all. (I use dpkg --get-selections >
> selections.txt to record which packages I had installed.)

This was years ago--7 or so--on a Thinkpad 240X (500MHz Pentium &
192MB RAM) that was already 5+ years old at the time. Installing Debian
or any OS on it wasn't a simple process. It would only boot off the hard
drive or floppy.  So, you started with a boot floppy, loaded drivers
off another two floppies, and the install would then switch and
continue off the install CD. Unfortunately, Etch didn't have the proper
CD drivers on its driver disk, but Sarge did. So, I did a base install
of Sarge, then a distribution upgrade to a base install of Etch which
was not a simple process. It involved manually deleting files,
changing configs, etc. before even starting the upgrade.  Otherwise,
the upgrade would fail.  Quite a process.  But there were excellent
step-by-step instructions in Debian's Upgrade instructions, so it went
smoothly. I then completed the process by installing the rest of the
system app by app, including X and XFCE.

Took several hours to complete, and I had no desire to repeat it.  So,
after the upgrade debacle a year or so later with system ending up a mix
of Etch and Lenny, I left the system as it was.  And that's where it
remains today. Amazingly, I still use it on a regular basis.

B


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread staticsafe 
On 5/6/2013 12:00, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Mon, May 06, 2013 at 08:45:30AM -0400, staticsafe wrote:
>> Hmm, I'm following this -
>> http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
>> - as an upgrade guide.
>>
>> It suggests `apt-get upgrade` first (after changes your sources of
>> course).
> 
> Umm, that'll be second, `apt-get update` would be first. :) SCNR
> 

Yes of course, shouldn't start replying to e-mails before I've had my
breakfast and tea. :)

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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Chris Bannister 
On Mon, May 06, 2013 at 08:45:30AM -0400, staticsafe wrote:
> Hmm, I'm following this -
> http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
> - as an upgrade guide.
> 
> It suggests `apt-get upgrade` first (after changes your sources of
> course).

Umm, that'll be second, `apt-get update` would be first. :) SCNR

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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Brian 
On Mon 06 May 2013 at 08:45:30 -0400, staticsafe wrote:

> On 5/6/2013 2:21, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >> 
> >> All that's required now is to cease using 'dist-upgrade' for
> >> upgrading. Dist-upgrade was recommended in the user install
> >> manual while Wheezy was still Testing. Now, that it's Stable,
> >> 'upgrade' is the recommended method.
> > 
> > Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective
> > wisdom on this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and
> > 'dist-upgrade' only if really required (e.g. packages not
> > upgraded).
> > 
> > It's rare, but it may happen that 'dist-upgrade' is needed also on
> >  stable.
> > 
> > Kind regards, Andrei
> > 
> Hmm, I'm following this -
> http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
> - as an upgrade guide.
> 
> It suggests `apt-get upgrade` first (after changes your sources of
> course).

I think Andrei is talking about upgrade vs dist-upgrade after Squeeze is
upgraded to Wheezy. Although I use dist-upgrade, I think either can be
used. A point release is not known for removing any packages from the
system.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread francis picabia 
1.  Listen to the advice from knowledge.
2.  There is no guessing.  It really is documented how to upgrade.  Follow
instructions.

http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html

(or whatever link suits your platform)

If you follow this guide, and stop reading junk guesses and stories of
wierd results from mistaken assumptions, you will get somewhere.

Read the guide.  It contains the steps.  It really does.

Chapter 4 is called "Upgrades from Debian 6.0 (squeeze)" .  It really means
what it says.  You must read it before doing the upgrade, not after.

Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread staticsafe 
On 5/6/2013 2:21, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> 
>> All that's required now is to cease using 'dist-upgrade' for
>> upgrading. Dist-upgrade was recommended in the user install
>> manual while Wheezy was still Testing. Now, that it's Stable,
>> 'upgrade' is the recommended method.
> 
> Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective
> wisdom on this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and
> 'dist-upgrade' only if really required (e.g. packages not
> upgraded).
> 
> It's rare, but it may happen that 'dist-upgrade' is needed also on
>  stable.
> 
> Kind regards, Andrei
> 
Hmm, I'm following this -
http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html
- as an upgrade guide.

It suggests `apt-get upgrade` first (after changes your sources of
course).

"In some cases, doing the full upgrade (as described below) directly
might remove large numbers of packages that you will want to keep. We
therefore recommend a two-part upgrade process: first a minimal
upgrade to overcome these conflicts, then a full upgrade as described
in Section 4.4.5, “Upgrading the system”. "

Then it tells you to complete the main part of the upgrade with
`apt-get dist-upgrade`

"This will perform a complete upgrade of the system, installing the
newest available versions of all packages, and resolving all possible
dependency changes between packages in different releases. If
necessary, it will install some new packages (usually new library
versions, or renamed packages), and remove any conflicting obsoleted
packages."

P.S - for people using aptitude -"The recommended way to upgrade from
previous Debian releases is to use the package management tool
apt-get. In previous releases, aptitude was recommended for this
purpose, but recent versions of apt-get provide equivalent
functionality and also have shown to more consistently give the
desired upgrade results."
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread Morel Bérenger 
Le Lun 6 mai 2013 10:37, James Allsopp a écrit :
> Hi,
> What I meant was I wan to upgrade an existing system from Squeeze to
> Wheezy
> but replacing Gnome2 with XFCE, which seems a more natural upgrade path.
> I'd rather not have the grief of trying to remove a load of gnome3
> libraries. I think I'll have to install XFCE then remove Gnome2 before the
>  upgrade?

The faster way (because it will avoid upgrading gnome or xfce for nothing,
which includes downloads):
Simply remove all gnome packages, upgrade, and then install XFCE. I think
it is safer to do that from outside an X session, but it should be ok
anyway.

A command like:
#aptitude purge gnome* && aptitude update && aptitude upgrade && aptitude
install xfce4

should do the job, but I think the 2 middle "aptitude" commands can be
replaced by dist-upgrade or something like that. Maybe safer too, I do not
really knows.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-06 Thread James Allsopp 
Hi,
What I meant was I wan to upgrade an existing system from Squeeze to Wheezy
but replacing Gnome2 with XFCE, which seems a more natural upgrade path.
I'd rather not have the grief of trying to remove a load of gnome3
libraries. I think I'll have to install XFCE then remove Gnome2 before the
upgrade?

Thanks,
James


On 6 May 2013 07:32, Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

> On Du, 05 mai 13, 23:44:36, Carl Fink wrote:
> >
> > That's really odd. Reinstalling Debian from scratch only takes an hour at
> > most, after all. (I use dpkg --get-selections > selections.txt to record
> > which packages I had installed.)
>
> BTW:
>
> +
> +  dpkg --set-selections changes
> +  
> +The dpkg --set-selections command is now aware of
> the
> +architecture of packages it selects and can only set the state for
> known
> +packages. Therefore an up-to-date available
> +database is needed for the command to be useful.
> +  
> +  
> +To update the available database on an
> +apt-based system, run the
> +sync-available command from the
> +dctrl-tools package.
> +See the dpkg FAQ
> +for more information.
> +  
> +
>
> (pending inclusion in the Release Notes)
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
> --
> http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
> Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers:
> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
>

Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Du, 05 mai 13, 23:44:36, Carl Fink wrote:
> 
> That's really odd. Reinstalling Debian from scratch only takes an hour at
> most, after all. (I use dpkg --get-selections > selections.txt to record
> which packages I had installed.)

BTW:

+ 

+  dpkg --set-selections changes  

+ 

+The dpkg --set-selections command is now aware of the   

+architecture of packages it selects and can only set the state for known   

+packages. Therefore an up-to-date available   

+database is needed for the command to be useful.   

+

+ 

+To update the available database on an

+apt-based system, run the  

+sync-available command from the 

+dctrl-tools package.   

+See the dpkg FAQ 

+for more information.  

+

+

(pending inclusion in the Release Notes)

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Du, 05 mai 13, 10:08:56, Gary Dale wrote:
> 
> If your current system uses Stable, you might want to switch that to 
> Squeeze for a while. I wouldn't advise upgrading servers, etc. to 
> Wheezy until you've had the chance to test the upgrade on things that 
> aren't critical.

... and read the Release Notes.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
[forgot I wanted to comment on the other paragraph as well]

On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
> few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
> "Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new "Stable".  I
> ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and Lenny.  Amazingly, it
> still worked. And still does. However, I never 'apt-get upgraded' again
> for fear of trashing it.

It should be possible to upgrade it completely to lenny and then squeeze 
and then wheezy. Reading the corresponding Release Notes is strongly 
recommended.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Du, 05 mai 13, 19:30:00, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> All that's required now is to cease using 'dist-upgrade' for upgrading.
> Dist-upgrade was recommended in the user install manual while Wheezy
> was still Testing. Now, that it's Stable, 'upgrade' is the recommended
> method.

Could you please provide a reference for that? The collective wisdom on 
this list recommends to always use 'upgrade' and 'dist-upgrade' only if 
really required (e.g. packages not upgraded).

It's rare, but it may happen that 'dist-upgrade' is needed also on 
stable.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Andrei POPESCU 
On Du, 05 mai 13, 15:19:56, staticsafe wrote:
> Forwarding to list as it was sent directly to me.
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased
> Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 20:05:20 +0100
> From: James Allsopp 
> To: staticsafe 
> 
> Hi,
> Is there an up to date upgrade guide for existing installations? Also I

http://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/releasenotes

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Carl Fink 
On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 07:30:00PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
> few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
> "Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new "Stable".  I
> ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and Lenny.  Amazingly, it
> still worked. And still does. However, I never 'apt-get upgraded' again
> for fear of trashing it.

That's really odd. Reinstalling Debian from scratch only takes an hour at
most, after all. (I use dpkg --get-selections > selections.txt to record
which packages I had installed.)
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Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread CaT 
On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 07:11:40PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 03:44:35PM -0400, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
> > > 
> > It's very easy to install XFCE.  Drill down in the graphical installer
> > to other desktops and make your selection
> 
> Or:
> 
> sudo apt-get install xfce4 xfce4-goodies

Or:

sudo apt-get install task-xfce-desktop

;)

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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Patrick Bartek 
On Sun, 05 May 2013, Gary Dale wrote:

> If your apt-sources use Wheezy and not Testing, there is no need to
> do anything different. If they use Testing, I'd advise switching to
> Stable or Wheezy for a few months until the new Testing becomes
> stable enough to use reliably.

All apt sources have always been set to "Wheezy" since I installed it
months ago.

I never use the "Stable" name any more.  Learned my lesson a
few years ago when I upgraded an install of Etch--sources set to
"Stable"--not realizing that Lenny had just become the new "Stable".  I
ended up with a hybrid system, a mix of Etch and Lenny.  Amazingly, it
still worked. And still does. However, I never 'apt-get upgraded' again
for fear of trashing it.

> If your current system uses Stable, you might want to switch that to
> Squeeze for a while. I wouldn't advise upgrading servers, etc. to
> Wheezy until you've had the chance to test the upgrade on things that
> aren't critical.

It isn't.

Nope.  Not needed.  Wheezy (while still Testing) was a clean install on
my personal desktop system replacing Fedora 12 which was showing its age
and exhibiting some problems.

All that's required now is to cease using 'dist-upgrade' for upgrading.
Dist-upgrade was recommended in the user install manual while Wheezy
was still Testing. Now, that it's Stable, 'upgrade' is the recommended
method.

B

 
> 
> 
> ____________
>  From: Klistvud 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
> Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:47:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased
>  
> 
> Dne, 05. 05. 2013 18:13:07 je Patrick Bartek napisal(a):
> > Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.
> > 
> > Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
> > these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Dan Ritter 
On Sun, May 05, 2013 at 03:44:35PM -0400, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
> > 
> It's very easy to install XFCE.  Drill down in the graphical installer
> to other desktops and make your selection

Or:

sudo apt-get install xfce4 xfce4-goodies

-dsr-


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Thilo Six 

Excerpt from Tony van der Hoff:

> On 05/05/13 19:08, Gary Dale wrote:
>> If your apt-sources use Wheezy and not Testing, there is no need to do
>> anything different. If they use Testing, I'd advise switching to Stable
>> or Wheezy for a few months until the new Testing becomes stable enough
>> to use reliably.
>>
>> If your current system uses Stable, you might want to switch that to
>> Squeeze for a while. I wouldn't advise upgrading servers, etc. to Wheezy
>> until you've had the chance to test the upgrade on things that aren't
>> critical.
> 
> An HTML top-poster handing out advice? Arrogant bastard!

Your Mail User Agent suggests you are using a mail programm that is not even
available in Debian.
A non-Debian user talks in this speech on this list. Now how is this?

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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Stephen P. Molnar 
On Sun, 2013-05-05 at 15:19 -0400, staticsafe wrote:
> Forwarding to list as it was sent directly to me.
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased
> Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 20:05:20 +0100
> From: James Allsopp 
> To: staticsafe 
> 
> Hi,
> Is there an up to date upgrade guide for existing installations? Also I
> want to replace Gnome 2 with XFCE as part of the process, if anyone's gone
> through that procedure?
> 
> Thanks,
> James
> 
> 
> On 5 May 2013 18:31, staticsafe  wrote:
> 
> > On 5/5/2013 12:13, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > > Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.
> > >
> > > Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
> > > these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.
> > >
> > > Thanks to the developers for all their hard work.
> > >
> > > B
> > >
> > >
> > The news post - http://www.debian.org/News/2013/20130504
> >
> > --
> > staticsafe
> > O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
> > Please don't top post - http://goo.gl/YrmAb
> > Don't CC me! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on.
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
It's very easy to install XFCE.  Drill down in the graphical installer
to other desktops and make your selection


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread staticsafe 
Forwarding to list as it was sent directly to me.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased
Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 20:05:20 +0100
From: James Allsopp 
To: staticsafe 

Hi,
Is there an up to date upgrade guide for existing installations? Also I
want to replace Gnome 2 with XFCE as part of the process, if anyone's gone
through that procedure?

Thanks,
James


On 5 May 2013 18:31, staticsafe  wrote:

> On 5/5/2013 12:13, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.
> >
> > Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
> > these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.
> >
> > Thanks to the developers for all their hard work.
> >
> > B
> >
> >
> The news post - http://www.debian.org/News/2013/20130504
>
> --
> staticsafe
> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
> Please don't top post - http://goo.gl/YrmAb
> Don't CC me! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on.
>
>
> --
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact
> listmas...@lists.debian.org
> Archive: http://lists.debian.org/51869782.6090...@staticsafe.ca
>
>




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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Lisi Reisz 
On Sunday 05 May 2013 18:29:50 Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> On 05/05/13 19:08, Gary Dale wrote:
> > If your apt-sources use Wheezy and not Testing, there is no need to do
> > anything different. If they use Testing, I'd advise switching to Stable
> > or Wheezy for a few months until the new Testing becomes stable enough
> > to use reliably.
> >
> > If your current system uses Stable, you might want to switch that to
> > Squeeze for a while. I wouldn't advise upgrading servers, etc. to Wheezy
> > until you've had the chance to test the upgrade on things that aren't
> > critical.
>
> An HTML top-poster handing out advice?

He actually posted in: Content-Type: multipart/alternative, which on my email 
client, KMail 1.9.10, displays by default as plain text.  Perhaps there is a 
setting in your email client with the same effect?

> Arrogant bastard!

I am tempted to talk about pots and kettles. ;-)  And it was quite good advice 
IMHO.

Lisi


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread staticsafe 
On 5/5/2013 12:13, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.
> 
> Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
> these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.
> 
> Thanks to the developers for all their hard work.
> 
> B
> 
> 
The news post - http://www.debian.org/News/2013/20130504

-- 
staticsafe
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
Please don't top post - http://goo.gl/YrmAb
Don't CC me! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on.


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Tony van der Hoff 
On 05/05/13 19:08, Gary Dale wrote:
> If your apt-sources use Wheezy and not Testing, there is no need to do
> anything different. If they use Testing, I'd advise switching to Stable
> or Wheezy for a few months until the new Testing becomes stable enough
> to use reliably.
> 
> If your current system uses Stable, you might want to switch that to
> Squeeze for a while. I wouldn't advise upgrading servers, etc. to Wheezy
> until you've had the chance to test the upgrade on things that aren't
> critical.

An HTML top-poster handing out advice? Arrogant bastard!



-- 
Tony van der Hoff  | mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org
Ariège, France |


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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Gary Dale 
If your apt-sources use Wheezy and not Testing, there is no need to do anything 
different. If they use Testing, I'd advise switching to Stable or Wheezy for a 
few months until the new Testing becomes stable enough to use reliably.

If your current system uses Stable, you might want to switch that to Squeeze 
for a while. I wouldn't advise upgrading servers, etc. to Wheezy until you've 
had the chance to test the upgrade on things that aren't critical.




 From: Klistvud 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:47:40 PM
Subject: Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased
 

Dne, 05. 05. 2013 18:13:07 je Patrick Bartek napisal(a):
> Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.
> 
> Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
> these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.
> 
> Thanks to the developers for all their hard work.
> 
> B

+1

:)

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Certifiable Loonix User #481801      Please reply to the list, not to  
me.

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Re: Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Klistvud 

Dne, 05. 05. 2013 18:13:07 je Patrick Bartek napisal(a):

Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.

Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.

Thanks to the developers for all their hard work.

B


+1

:)

--
Cheerio,

Klistvud  
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com
Certifiable Loonix User #481801  Please reply to the list, not to  
me.


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Debian 7 Wheezy Stable Relelased

2013-05-05 Thread Patrick Bartek 
Noted with pleasure Wheezy is officially Stable.

Guess it's time to switch from dist-upgrade I've been doing all
these months during the transition to Stable to upgrade.

Thanks to the developers for all their hard work.

B


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