Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 2014-12-05, Buntunub mckis...@gmail.com wrote: And so it comes full circle. This is why there is a need for a Debian fork. /I/ don't have to do any of those things. You don't either. The good folks at Devuan will take care of all that for you. Fine then go fork yourselves with a Devuan. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm82vj1.2bu.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 12/05/2014 04:44 AM, Curt wrote: On 2014-12-05, Buntunub mckis...@gmail.com wrote: And so it comes full circle. This is why there is a need for a Debian fork. /I/ don't have to do any of those things. You don't either. The good folks at Devuan will take care of all that for you. Fine then go fork yourselves with a Devuan. +1 :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54819b75.9010...@gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
[ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this go uncorrected... ] Thiago wrote: Jessie isn't Debian. So you say. Others have a different opinion. Absolutely, it is just an opinion, I know. Also, it seems to be Joey's opinion too: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/11/msg00174.html And, Joey's opinion is very, very strong. He can talk about this, more than anyone. So, Jessie isn't Debian anymore... Soon or later, everybody will realize that. Right now, I'm very concerned about Debian's stability, I'm using it (since Potato) because it is _stable_, release after release, but, when with systemd, it will not be that stable anymore, it is impossible to be, mostly because systemd itself it too new and poorly designed, not ready for production. Maybe in ~2020, who knows... Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/on_leaving/ : I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com ...In the UNIX world, people tend to interpret `non-technical user' as meaning someone who's only ever written one device driver. -- Daniel Pead -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/e1xwtcd-0007v2...@mail.einval.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 5 December 2014 at 11:45, Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: [ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this go uncorrected... ] Me too... Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/on_leaving/ : I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd. I'm not. I'm just trying to interpret what he said in the middle of this context / mess. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAJSM8J0sDSs89-hSWeJBLaR6E4fh7YvmYrd86sZ9p=uA=Bsv=q...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On Friday 05 December 2014 16:19:08 Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: On 5 December 2014 at 11:45, Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: [ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this go uncorrected... ] Me too... Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/on_leaving/ : I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd. I'm not. I'm just trying to interpret what he said in the middle of this context / mess. I.e put words into his mouth and completely alter what he said. If you are not happy with Debian, then please stop using it. If you are happy, use it. Don't misquote the great and the good to pretend they support you. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201412051719.46308.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 05/12/14 18:19, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Friday 05 December 2014 16:19:08 Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: On 5 December 2014 at 11:45, Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: [ Apologies to others for maybe prolonging this, but I can't let this go uncorrected... ] Me too... Spout crap if you like (but please do it elsewhere), but don't put words into Joey's mouth. As he later clarified in http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/on_leaving/ : I left Debian. I don't really have a lot to say about why, but I do want to clear one thing up right away. It's not about systemd. I'm not. I'm just trying to interpret what he said in the middle of this context / mess. I.e put words into his mouth and completely alter what he said. If you are not happy with Debian, then please stop using it. If you are happy, use it. Don't misquote the great and the good to pretend they support you. ++ What he said didn't require interpreting. Just take it at face value, rather than build a conspiracy out of it. There is no mess. -- Tony van der Hoff| mailto:t...@vanderhoff.org Buckinghamshire, England | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5481ee91.9070...@vanderhoff.org
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Hallo, * Erwan David [Wed, Dec 03 2014, 04:13:14PM]: As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the I don't want any systemd package on my machine use case into account you know. Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be Because that set of systemd depending packages is BS, most of the ones listed there are only linked with libsystemd0 and might attempt to send a dbus message here and there, which only has some effect if and only if systemd is PID1. Bitching about not used features is like demonizing libselinux1. Regards, Eduard. -- leichenwagenErst wenn der letzte Programmierer eingesperrt und die letzte Idee patentiert ist, werdet ihr merken, daß Anwälte nicht programmieren können -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141205231359.gb25...@rotes76.wohnheim.uni-kl.de
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 12/03/2014 07:13 AM, Erwan David wrote: As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the I don't want any systemd package on my machine use case into account you know. Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be vulnerable to a well known attack. What makes us think that more quality was put in systemd-logind ? Not wanting systemd means not wanting it *at all*. I personnally do not trust it for critical system tasks. First Squeeze has to get upgraded to Wheezy without any systemd components and then upgrade Wheezy to Jessie without systemd. -- Jimmy Johnson Debian - Wheezy - KDE 4.8.4 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda1 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54806cdf.6000...@gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Jessie isn't Debian. So you say. Others have a different opinion. Absolutely, it is just an opinion, I know. Also, it seems to be Joey's opinion too: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/11/msg00174.html And, Joey's opinion is very, very strong. He can talk about this, more than anyone. So, Jessie isn't Debian anymore... Soon or later, everybody will realize that. Right now, I'm very concerned about Debian's stability, I'm using it (since Potato) because it is _stable_, release after release, but, when with systemd, it will not be that stable anymore, it is impossible to be, mostly because systemd itself it too new and poorly designed, not ready for production. Maybe in ~2020, who knows... What is happening with Debian is just crazy. Best! Thiago -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cajsm8j0o3av6g_s1nfjcwwxg4wtmgn8ihsn1lpkut6hrcjc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Laurent Bigonville-5 wrote Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100, Martin Steigerwald lt; Martin@ gt; a écrit : Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David: Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce lt; aaron.toponce@ gt; wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks. I explicetely wrote any systemd related package. [...] So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really crippled system. As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the I don't want any systemd package on my machine use case into account you know. But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the systemd package completely. And so it comes full circle. This is why there is a need for a Debian fork. /I/ don't have to do any of those things. You don't either. The good folks at Devuan will take care of all that for you. -- View this message in context: http://debian.2.n7.nabble.com/Debian-fork-Devuan-Debian-without-Systemd-tp338p3447295.html Sent from the Debian User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1417757630187-3447295.p...@n7.nabble.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David: Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks. I explicetely wrote any systemd related package. But yes, my example was incomplete. With all related packages it looks like this: merkaba:~ LANG=C apt-get purge libpam-systemd libsystemd-id128-0 libsystemd0 libsystemd0 systemd systemd-ui Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: abe-data analitza-common augeas-lenses bluez-obexd briquolo-data calligrastage-data celestia-common colobot-common colobot-common-sounds colobot-common-textures command-not-found dreamchess-data ebtables epiphany-data extremetuxracer-data extremetuxracer-extras ffmpegthumbs fonts-ebgaramond-extra freedroid-data freedroidrpg-data frogatto-data gir1.2-vte-2.90 kalzium-data kde-config-cron kde-games-core-declarative kde-icons-mono kde-thumbnailer-deb kdeartwork-style kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu-kvtml-data kdegames-card-data kdegames-mahjongg-data kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdenetwork-filesharing kdepim-mobileui-data kdesdk-strigi-plugins kdesdk-thumbnailers kexi-data kgamma kgeography-data klettres-data ksaneplugin kstars-data ktouch-data ktux lbreakout2-data libakonadi-socialutils4 libakonadi-xml4 libalure1 libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1 libanalitzaplot5abi1 libapache-poi-java libaugeas0 libbluedevil2 libboost-chrono1.55.0 libboost-signals1.55.0 libboost-wave1.55.0 libbulletcollision2.82 libbulletdynamics2.82 libcommons-codec-java libcomposereditorng4 libdataquay0 libdebconf-kde0 libdumb1 libechonest2.1 libfishsound1 libfox-1.6-0 libfreeimage3 libfs6 libftgl2 libgcj-bc libgeoclue0 libglee0d1 libgtkmm-3.0-1 libguess1 libgwengui-fox16-0 libgwengui-gtk2-0 libgwenhywfar60-dev libid3-3.8.3c2a libkasten2controllers2 libkasten2core2 libkasten2gui2 libkasten2okteta1controllers1abi1 libkasten2okteta1core1 libkasten2okteta1gui1 libkdeedu-data libkdegames6abi1 libkdegamesprivate1abi1 libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 libkmahjongglib4 libktoblzcheck1-dev liblinearmath2.82 liblo7 liblrdf0 liblsofui4 libmozjs185-1.0 libmxml1 libmygui.ogreplatform0debian1 libmyguiengine3debian1 libnetcf1 liboggz2 libogre-1.9.0 libokteta1core1 libokteta1gui1 libparted-fs-resize0 libphysfs1 libprojectm2 libqapt1 libqtgstreamerutils-0.10-0 libqxt-core0 libqxt-gui0 libraptor1 librubberband2 libsublime8 libswt-cairo-gtk-3-jni libswt-glx-gtk-3-jni libswt-webkit-gtk-3-jni libunshield0 libusbredirhost1 libva-glx1 libvte-2.90-9 libvte-2.90-common libxine2-bin libxine2-doc libxine2-ffmpeg libxml++2.6-2 libxmlbeans-java libxmp4 manaplus-data neverball-common neverball-data oolite-data oolite-data-sounds oolite-doc openmw-data p7zip pachi-data palapeli-data parley-data pbzip2 pinball-data pingus-data pristine-tar projectm-data python-gdbm python-ipaddr python-opengl python-pyside.qtdeclarative python-pyside.qtgui python-pyside.qthelp python-pyside.qtnetwork python-pyside.qtopengl python-pyside.qtscript python-pyside.qtsql python-pyside.qtsvg python-pyside.qttest python-pyside.qtuitools python-pyside.qtwebkit python-pyside.qtxml python-urlgrabber qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 redshift scummvm-data supertux-data transcode-doc trophy-data ttf-femkeklaver ttf-unifont twolame unmo3 x11-session-utils x11-xfs-utils xinit Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following extra packages will be installed: icedtea-6-jre-cacao icedtea-6-jre-jamvm libqt4-phonon openjdk-6-jre-headless openjdk-6-jre-lib Suggested packages: sun-java6-fonts fonts-ipafont-gothic fonts-ipafont-mincho fonts-indic […apt-get busy with dependency calculation, eating 100% of one core …] The following packages will be REMOVED: abe* acpi-fakekey* adonthell* adonthell-data* akonadiconsole* akregator*
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de a écrit : Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David: Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks. I explicetely wrote any systemd related package. [...] So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really crippled system. As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the I don't want any systemd package on my machine use case into account you know. But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the systemd package completely. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203123926.4fb34...@soldur.bigon.be
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 12:39:26 schrieb Laurent Bigonville: Le Wed, 03 Dec 2014 10:18:36 +0100, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de a écrit : Am Mittwoch, 3. Dezember 2014, 08:35:00 schrieb Erwan David: Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks. I explicetely wrote any systemd related package. [...] So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really crippled system. As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the I don't want any systemd package on my machine use case into account you know. Laurent, I wrote: So you can still choose to what init system to use, but running completely without any systemd related packages gives you a really crippled system. For me that states clearly that I am perfectly aware of that. So I do not get why you repeat it and even complain that its already explained several times on this ML as actually I think I did not leave a trace of doubt of my awareness of that in the way I have written this. But if you have that special concern, you'll have to start recompiling the packages I'm afraid. Start with policykit and network-manager (and other package defining a dependency against libpam-systemd) to make them use ConsoleKit again, you would at least be able to remove the systemd package completely. I just showed this. I am not sure whether I have a concern about it. But its a topic the devuan fork can extend upon whats currently available in Debian. Whether it would be necessary to fork Debian for that, I don´t know. That would depend on whether maintainers of the involved Debian packages would accept patches which can make them (maybe optionally?) use ConsoleKit again. I bet there may be a limit on what the maintainers of the official Debian packages would accept there. Of course, its also thinkable to provide those patches upstream, but I have doubt that GNOME maintainers would accept them. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2373015.jQGrihgpOm@merkaba
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
As explained several times on this ML, depending against libsystemd0 package doesn't mean anything about requiring systemd to be used as PID1 or not. Even Ian's GR was not taking the I don't want any systemd package on my machine use case into account you know. Why focus on PID1 ? As I said, systemd-resolved proved to be vulnerable to a well known attack. What makes us think that more quality was put in systemd-logind ? Not wanting systemd means not wanting it *at all*. I personnally do not trust it for critical system tasks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203151314.go8...@rail.eu.org
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 2 December 2014 at 19:22, Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:20PM +0100, Märk Owen wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc I doubt that this will work in the near future (jessie +1). Debian/Devuan WILL NEED an `udev` alternative to keep `sysinit-core` working. Sooner or later, there will be no more `sysvinit-core`, `upstart` or whatever, because `systemd` guys engulfed `udev` and they are change it to make sure it will only work with systemd = PID1, this sucks, _this is extortion_ (kind of). Everybody that falls for that, will regret. Devuan will need something like `eudev` to succeed. It is freaking unbelievable that Debian is now following RedHat after all we achieved during those ~two decades, by ourselves. I'm not against `systemd` itself, I'm against the lack of freedom to choose whatever init I need/want. Systemd is here, fine, but as an option ONLY. Well, no. Jessie isn't Debian. Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel joining Devuan... lol Cheers! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cajsm8j14y4x2vdr99jbwpo+_uaich3cshr_vyvzppihsqoc...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:37:02 -0200 Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote: Sooner or later, there will be no more `sysvinit-core`, `upstart` or whatever, because `systemd` guys engulfed `udev` and they are change it to make sure it will only work with systemd = PID1, this sucks, Very likely, Jēmuzu, and they will explain their actions withWell, everyone has shifted to systemd, so there is no point... And we must do something... Cheers, Ron. -- All that is necessary for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203172022.5c227...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Jessie isn't Debian. Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel joining Devuan... lol I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why some people complain about systemd. Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will forget that systemd is new... -- Maderios -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547f777d.7040...@gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 03/12/14 19:37, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Debian/Devuan WILL NEED an `udev` alternative to keep `sysinit-core` working. Perhaps. On the other hand, they might only need an alternative implementation of the user-space glue that makes kdbus work. Devuan will need something like `eudev` to succeed. Conveniently, eudev already exists, has active maintainers, and is readily obtainable in source code form. Anyone willing to embark on a project like Devuan should be perfectly capable of getting it packaged. Jessie isn't Debian. So you say. Others have a different opinion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547f7bad.6090...@zen.co.uk
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100 maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Jessie isn't Debian. Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel joining Devuan... lol I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why some people complain about systemd. Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will forget that systemd is new... What about the people who will want to use another init system in Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right? Is that still the case here? That's the true question in this debate. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203221859.2d12442f@MARC-THINKPAD.queenland
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Hi Madeiros! I'm also using `systemd`, I'm working to use Enlightenment with Wayland (to kick Xorg off) and, it depends on `systemd`. I just don't think that it is wise to put all of our eggs into the same basket. This `systemd` being pushed everywhere looks like a huge monoculture, which is very, very dangerous. Also, ALL my production servers, that are public (Internet faced), uses the GRSecurity Linux Patch, and `systemd` doesn't work with it. So, right now, `systemd` only makes sense at Desktops. And I mean it. So, my job/company depends on `sysvinit-core` / `upstart` and there is no plans to use `systemd` at our servers (and I'm talking about hundreds of Linux instances, physical servers and virtual machines). Cheers! On 3 December 2014 at 18:50, maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Jessie isn't Debian. Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel joining Devuan... lol I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why some people complain about systemd. Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will forget that systemd is new... -- Maderios -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547f777d.7040...@gmail.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAJSM8J29rBBb_8nwYDt=bqwj0n5x9gyrkypngqnccu-mh63...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 3 December 2014 at 19:18, Märk Owen markowen2...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100 maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Jessie isn't Debian. Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel joining Devuan... lol I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why some people complain about systemd. Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will forget that systemd is new... What about the people who will want to use another init system in Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right? Is that still the case here? That's the true question in this debate. BTW, I just mentioned a valid example: I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`. I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy `systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd] doesn't work here. If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan... Lennart do not care about that: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cajsm8j0kdtbhxz5xqpr-dtzeo8eoz9wjzkw_r1w1ry5htkw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 03/12/14 21:52, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`. I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy `systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd] doesn't work here. If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan... Lennart do not care about that: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that? A cursory search using duckduckgo with the search terms: +grsecurity +systemd leads me, directly and indirectly, to information on various web sites associated with Arch Linux, Gentoo, and grsecurity which lead me to believe that it is possible to work around the problem described in that bug report without completely disabling CONFIG_GRKERNSEC_PROC. (Of course, I recognize that in any given situation, it may not be acceptable to make the necessary configuration changes.) That said, I don't see a problem with Lennart's position in that bug report anyway. Well, this sounds useful, but I don't see how we can support this, we need access to the PID directory of the sender of messages, to collect metadata, there's really no way around it. seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation for things not working-as-intended on systems where that access is not available. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547f9a90.5080...@zen.co.uk
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 3 December 2014 at 21:19, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk wrote: On 03/12/14 21:52, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I'm using `GRSecurity` with Debian in prod and it doesn't work with `systemd`. I NEED `sysvinit-core` (or upstart) and there is no plans to deploy `systemd` at my company's public data center. Since it [systemd] doesn't work here. If `systemd` gets fixed (to work with `GRSecurity`), then, I'll give it a second try. Otherwise, I'll need to move to Devuan... Lennart do not care about that: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65575 - How bad is that? A cursory search using duckduckgo with the search terms: +grsecurity +systemd leads me, directly and indirectly, to information on various web sites associated with Arch Linux, Gentoo, and grsecurity which lead me to believe that it is possible to work around the problem described in that bug report without completely disabling CONFIG_GRKERNSEC_PROC. (Of course, I recognize that in any given situation, it may not be acceptable to make the necessary configuration changes.) That said, I don't see a problem with Lennart's position in that bug report anyway. Well, this sounds useful, but I don't see how we can support this, we need access to the PID directory of the sender of messages, to collect metadata, there's really no way around it. seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation for things not working-as-intended on systems where that access is not available. Thanks for this feedback!! I tried it but, then, I wasn't with enough time to debug it... Since it was working before, I just replaced systemd by sysvinit and forgot about it... Best! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAJSM8J2dXE=S9+qjPrG=u67dnath+0+tovod3de5srppg3b...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 12/03/2014 04:18 PM, Märk Owen wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:50:05 +0100 maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/03/2014 08:37 PM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: Jessie isn't Debian. Devuan IS (will be) what we know about Debian! Waiting to see Joel joining Devuan... lol I've no problem with systemd (Sid), it works fine). I dont understand why some people complain about systemd. Devuan is not Mint or Ubuntu, I think it has no future and everyone will forget that systemd is new... What about the people who will want to use another init system in Debian then? I mean, Linux is supposed to be about choice, right? Right, it IS about choice ...by those who do the choosing. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547fb386.6050...@gmail.com
Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Hi guys Not for me but interesting. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg1MDQ -- Maderios -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547d8aa7.2070...@gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On 12/02/2014 04:47 AM, maderios wrote: Hi guys Not for me but interesting. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg1MDQ # More about the vision This is just a start, as bold as it sounds to call it fork, at a process that will unfold in time and involve more people, first to import and change Debian packages and later on to maintain them under a separate course. To help with this adventure and its growth, we ask you all to get involved, but also to donate money so that we can cover the costs of setting the new infrastructure in place. https://devuan.org/donate.html So kiddies, be sure to send in your checks and money orders so you can all put your money where your mouth is. cackles Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547e0f8f.3030...@gmail.com
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:47:19 +0100 maderios mader...@gmail.com wrote: Hi guys Not for me but interesting. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg1MDQ It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. These guys should have kept working on Debian and made sure every package is compatible with whichever init system we choose. Too bad, it won't happen. DI doubt very much that Devuan will last. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlR+I7QACgkQG4/m5fHE0bIT2QCgt6f0QoKy6+/B+5PXhAMHvYnn NgQAn2t8efLZS023AL7VQtneY0qozwpr =oJXc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:20PM +0100, Märk Owen wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o pgpUp3YHpJVru.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Cheers, Ron. -- To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. -- George Santayana -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141202184738.61518...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. I.e. making: merkaba:~ LANG=C apt-get purge systemd Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: amor analitza-common blinken cantor cantor-backend-kalgebra filelight kaccessible kalgebra kalgebra-common kalzium kalzium-data kanagram kbruch kcharselect kcolorchooser kde-config-cron kde-icons-mono kdeaccessibility kdeadmin kdeartwork kdeartwork-style kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu kdeedu-kvtml-data kdegraphics kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdemultimedia kdenetwork kdenetwork-filesharing kdetoys kdeutils kdf kgamma kgeography kgeography-data kgpg khangman kig kiten klettres klettres-data kmag kmousetool kmplot kolourpaint4 kppp krdc kremotecontrol krfb kruler ksaneplugin kscd kstars kstars-data ksystemlog kteatime ktimer ktouch ktouch-data kturtle ktux kuser kwordquiz libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1 libanalitzaplot5abi1 libkdeedu-data libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 marble pairs parley parley-data plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba print-manager qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 rocs step Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them. The following packages will be REMOVED: colord* gvfs* gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* hplip* hplip-gui* k3b* k3b-i18n* kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-standard* libpam-systemd* libvirt-daemon-system* network-manager* packagekit* packagekit-tools* plasma-nm* plasma-widget-networkmanagement* policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome* polkit-kde-1* printer-driver-postscript-hp* systemd* systemd-ui* udisks2* 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 26 to remove and 0 not upgraded. After this operation, 57.9 MB disk space will be freed. Do you want to continue? [Y/n] work. And well systemd-shim and cgmanager *are* installed. But that would be the bigger work… as it needs patching of upstream projects *or* implementing the required functionality elsewhise. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3665370.lq8Inphs2e@merkaba
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 06:47:38PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Most would call that FUD. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o pgph4NmlzHiM5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd
Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit : Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700 Aaron Toponce aaron.topo...@gmail.com wrote: It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me this way. # apt-get install upstart # apt-get install sysvinit-core # apt-get install openrc No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The fork is just silly. Another way to look at it is forward planning for the release after Jessie, when systemd may well become compulsory... Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable without having any systemd related package installed. The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was designed without any care for well known attacks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547ebd24.4010...@rail.eu.org
