Re: How did you update to stretch?

[deloptes]

John Elliot V wrote:

> I'm just starting out with Salt, and I haven't figured out what you do
> if you want to put a reboot between various configuration steps...

I guess you target a stopped state - I never went deep in to saltstack. I
had to use the interface for a project, but after this I had to learn
ansible. In any case if you intend to use salt on single machine - it makes
no sense

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> From: d...@sherohman.org
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 01:27:42PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>> By running upgrade before dist-upgrade, you reduce complexity by
>> maximising the compatibility of packages with each other. When
>> lenny was replaced by squeeze, even these two steps were
>> insufficient; the kernel and udev needed replacing as a pair after
>> the (lenny) upgrade and before the (squeeze) dist-upgrade.
> I was around for lenny => squeeze, but had forgotten about that. It
> could well be the explanation for my current procedure, though, which
> is:
> apt-get update
> apt-get install dpkg apt
> apt-get upgrade
> apt-get dist-upgrade
> The basic idea being to first get the latest tools in place, then do the
> simple upgrades, and save the complex ones for last.
> I also used to stage large upgrades in multiple steps, doing only a
> dozen or two packages at a time and selecting dependencies first,
> leaving dependent packages for later (when possible), again in the
> interest of keeping each batch of updates as simple as possible, but
> I"ve stopped doing that since the tools started distinguishing between
> manually-installed packages and those which were automatically selected
> to satisfy dependencies.

I must have been lucky then, because I have a system that I only use for
entertainment, audio-visual/home-cinema, a chess game, and mindless
browsing. I have only used synaptic - reload - upgrade. When I run
dist-upgrade it found nothing to do. When I run autoclean and purge it
had nothing to do. I recently remember a coupld of times that it asked
me to drop a package that was no-longer needed, in synaptic, and
I thought only dist-upgrade would do such a thing, therefore my incorrect
assumption. I always thought synpatic was just a gui for apt/apt-get
and all options/command were converted to menu items.
Whenever I tried aptitude I hated it and want nothing to do with it.

> Dave Sherohman

(AK)

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Dave Sherohman]

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 01:27:42PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> By running upgrade before dist-upgrade, you reduce complexity by
> maximising the compatibility of packages with each other. When
> lenny was replaced by squeeze, even these two steps were
> insufficient; the kernel and udev needed replacing as a pair after
> the (lenny) upgrade and before the (squeeze) dist-upgrade.

I was around for lenny => squeeze, but had forgotten about that.  It
could well be the explanation for my current procedure, though, which
is:

apt-get update
apt-get install dpkg apt
apt-get upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade

The basic idea being to first get the latest tools in place, then do the
simple upgrades, and save the complex ones for last.

I also used to stage large upgrades in multiple steps, doing only a
dozen or two packages at a time and selecting dependencies first,
leaving dependent packages for later (when possible), again in the
interest of keeping each batch of updates as simple as possible, but
I've stopped doing that since the tools started distinguishing between
manually-installed packages and those which were automatically selected
to satisfy dependencies.

-- 
Dave Sherohman

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Joe]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:07:06 -0400
Fungi4All  wrote:

> > On 27/06/17 05:39, Brian wrote:  
> >> It was. I am a creature of habit. I still reboot between upgrade
> >> and dist-upgrade when I eventually upgrade a machine from one
> >> distribution to another.  
> 
> When one uses synaptic there is reload (update) and upgrade, it does
> not distinguish between dist and non-dist upgrade. I assume it is
> dist-upgrade. So if synaptic has a new edition (which I assume its
> dependencies may have been updated) it sounds wise to upgrade it
> alone (w/ dependencies) and then restart it and run the upgrade.
> Would these be correct assumptions? In most cases I use apt, and
> synaptic when I am searching for a useful package, due to
> descriptions, snapshots, etc.

Look at Settings->Preferences General tab. From the Help:

"Default Upgrade
The default upgrade method marks upgrades of installed packages only.
If the later version of a package depends on not installed packages or
conflicts with an already installed package, the upgrade will not be
marked. 

"Smart Upgrade (Dist-Upgrade) The smart upgrade method tries to
resolve package conflicts intelligently. This includes installing
additional required packages and preferring packages with higher
priority. Smart upgrade is also known as dist-upgrade in the console
tool apt-get. "

Except that 'Smart Upgrade' is actually the default, not 'Default
Upgrade'.

-- 
Joe

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Fungi4All]

> On 27/06/17 05:39, Brian wrote:
>> It was. I am a creature of habit. I still reboot between upgrade and
>> dist-upgrade when I eventually upgrade a machine from one distribution
>> to another.

When one uses synaptic there is reload (update) and upgrade, it does not 
distinguish
between dist and non-dist upgrade. I assume it is dist-upgrade. So if synaptic 
has a new
edition (which I assume its dependencies may have been updated) it sounds wise 
to
upgrade it alone (w/ dependencies) and then restart it and run the upgrade.
Would these be correct assumptions? In most cases I use apt, and synaptic when 
I am
searching for a useful package, due to descriptions, snapshots, etc.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:

Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?


Merely because that's what the release notes said to do.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland

⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[John Elliot V]

On 27/06/17 05:39, Brian wrote:
> It was. I am a creature of habit. I still reboot between upgrade and
> dist-upgrade when I eventually upgrade a machine from one distribution
> to another.

Do you ever use configuration management tools like Salt Stack?

 https://saltstack.com/

I'm just starting out with Salt, and I haven't figured out what you do
if you want to put a reboot between various configuration steps...

-- 
E: j...@jj5.net
P: +61 4 3505 7839
W: https://www.jj5.net/
<>

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Brian]

On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:27:42 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 19:01:21 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:06:29 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
> > > > Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> > > > dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?
> > > 
> > > Probably because (s)he read the release notes:
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > The notes are clear but what is the point of following this procedure?
> > 
> > You do an upgrade, so an upgrade is done. No new packages. Fair enough.
> 
> I have a desktop that I don't use very frequently at the moment.
> Last time I booted it up, the apt-get upgrade downloaded over 70
> packages. There was probably a point-release involved.
> That contrasts with my regularly used machines that apt-get -d upgrade
> every three hours and email me if their cache contains any packages.
> 
> If you watch upgrades taking place, you can see that they're phased.
> Apt-ish and Dpkg-ish are setup before other packages are unpacked,
> and so on. It's not all just done in one heap.
> 
> By running upgrade before dist-upgrade, you reduce complexity by
> maximising the compatibility of packages with each other. When
> lenny was replaced by squeeze, even these two steps were
> insufficient; the kernel and udev needed replacing as a pair after
> the (lenny) upgrade and before the (squeeze) dist-upgrade.

Thank you for reminding us of Lenny -> Squeeze. It is not the same this
time but I have been scarred by it! 'apt-get upgrade' is such a simple
step to take first for the reason you give that it would be churlish not
to agree with it for the reason you give.
 
> > You are none the wiser about what would happen if a dist-upgrade is done
> > next, so it is still a dive into the unknown.
> > 
> > Then you dist-upgrade. Why not leave out the previous step, unless there
> > are packages you wish to keep? Perhaps an illustrative example of when
> > the single-step process dist-upgrade fails would be helpful. The advice
> > 
> >  This has the effect of upgrading those packages which can be
> >  upgraded without requiring any other packages to be removed
> >  or installed
> > 
> > simply repeats what apt-get(8) says without its detailed explanation.
> > 
> > (I upgrade, reboot, dist-upgrade, But I am into cargo-cult).
> 
> Oh, I forgot. It was necessary, of course, to reboot after replacing
> the kernel and udev in the lenny/squeeze process, in order for the
> newly installed kernel to be actually running as opposed to just
> spinning on the drive.

It was. I am a creature of habit. I still reboot between upgrade and
dist-upgrade when I eventually upgrade a machine from one distribution
to another.

-- 
Brian.
-- 
Brian.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Brian]

On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 14:16:57 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2017-06-26 at 14:01, Brian wrote:
> 
> > On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:06:29 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> >> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> >>> dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get
> >>> dist-upgrade..?
> >> 
> >> Probably because (s)he read the release notes:
> >> 
> >> 
> >
> > The notes are clear but what is the point of following this
> > procedure?
> > 
> > You do an upgrade, so an upgrade is done. No new packages. Fair
> > enough. You are none the wiser about what would happen if a
> > dist-upgrade is done next, so it is still a dive into the unknown.
> > 
> > Then you dist-upgrade. Why not leave out the previous step, unless
> > there are packages you wish to keep? Perhaps an illustrative example
> > of when the single-step process dist-upgrade fails would be helpful.
> 
> For one thing, this way any new code from e.g. apt/dpkg/etc. themselves
> will be in place before you run the more-complex portion of the upgrade
> process, and you'll be able to take advantages of any fixes or
> improvements which may result from that.

This is the sort of advice which should be in the Release Notes rather
than the anodyne reason which is given at present. It makes sense to
target one of the most fundamental aspects of Debian before moving on
to other things,

-- 
Brian.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[The Wanderer]

On 2017-06-26 at 14:27, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 19:01:21 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> 
>> On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:06:29 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

>>> Probably because (s)he read the release notes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>
>> The notes are clear but what is the point of following this
>> procedure?
>> 
>> You do an upgrade, so an upgrade is done. No new packages. Fair
>> enough.
> 
> I have a desktop that I don't use very frequently at the moment. Last
> time I booted it up, the apt-get upgrade downloaded over 70 packages.
> There was probably a point-release involved. That contrasts with my
> regularly used machines that apt-get -d upgrade every three hours and
> email me if their cache contains any packages.

I understood "No new packages." to mean "no not-previously-installed
packages get installed", not "no new versions of existing packages get
installed".

> If you watch upgrades taking place, you can see that they're phased.
> Apt-ish and Dpkg-ish are setup before other packages are unpacked,
> and so on. It's not all just done in one heap.
> 
> By running upgrade before dist-upgrade, you reduce complexity by 
> maximising the compatibility of packages with each other. When lenny
> was replaced by squeeze, even these two steps were insufficient; the
> kernel and udev needed replacing as a pair after the (lenny) upgrade
> and before the (squeeze) dist-upgrade.

This is my interpretation of (one major reason for) the recommendation,
as well.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[David Wright]

On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 19:01:21 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:06:29 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
> > > Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> > > dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?
> > 
> > Probably because (s)he read the release notes:
> > 
> > 
> 
> The notes are clear but what is the point of following this procedure?
> 
> You do an upgrade, so an upgrade is done. No new packages. Fair enough.

I have a desktop that I don't use very frequently at the moment.
Last time I booted it up, the apt-get upgrade downloaded over 70
packages. There was probably a point-release involved.
That contrasts with my regularly used machines that apt-get -d upgrade
every three hours and email me if their cache contains any packages.

If you watch upgrades taking place, you can see that they're phased.
Apt-ish and Dpkg-ish are setup before other packages are unpacked,
and so on. It's not all just done in one heap.

By running upgrade before dist-upgrade, you reduce complexity by
maximising the compatibility of packages with each other. When
lenny was replaced by squeeze, even these two steps were
insufficient; the kernel and udev needed replacing as a pair after
the (lenny) upgrade and before the (squeeze) dist-upgrade.

> You are none the wiser about what would happen if a dist-upgrade is done
> next, so it is still a dive into the unknown.
> 
> Then you dist-upgrade. Why not leave out the previous step, unless there
> are packages you wish to keep? Perhaps an illustrative example of when
> the single-step process dist-upgrade fails would be helpful. The advice
> 
>  This has the effect of upgrading those packages which can be
>  upgraded without requiring any other packages to be removed
>  or installed
> 
> simply repeats what apt-get(8) says without its detailed explanation.
> 
> (I upgrade, reboot, dist-upgrade, But I am into cargo-cult).

Oh, I forgot. It was necessary, of course, to reboot after replacing
the kernel and udev in the lenny/squeeze process, in order for the
newly installed kernel to be actually running as opposed to just
spinning on the drive.

Cheers,
David.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[The Wanderer]

On 2017-06-26 at 14:01, Brian wrote:

> On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:06:29 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
>> 
>>> Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
>>> dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get
>>> dist-upgrade..?
>> 
>> Probably because (s)he read the release notes:
>> 
>> 
>
> The notes are clear but what is the point of following this
> procedure?
> 
> You do an upgrade, so an upgrade is done. No new packages. Fair
> enough. You are none the wiser about what would happen if a
> dist-upgrade is done next, so it is still a dive into the unknown.
> 
> Then you dist-upgrade. Why not leave out the previous step, unless
> there are packages you wish to keep? Perhaps an illustrative example
> of when the single-step process dist-upgrade fails would be helpful.

For one thing, this way any new code from e.g. apt/dpkg/etc. themselves
will be in place before you run the more-complex portion of the upgrade
process, and you'll be able to take advantages of any fixes or
improvements which may result from that.

> (I upgrade, reboot, dist-upgrade, But I am into cargo-cult).

I update, dist-upgrade, autoremove, remove $(deborphan), and then run
'update-flashplugin-nonfree --install', manually as root, about once a
day - not quite every day, but on average multiple times a week over the
gap between major releases.

Since I also track testing (by that name, not by release name) in
sources.list, that means that by the time the freeze ends and the
release officially occurs, I'm essentially already upgraded.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Brian]

On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 18:27:28 +0100, Joe wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 03:04:30 +1000
> John Elliot V  wrote:
> 
> > On 26/06/17 23:12, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > >> So, how are your experiences? Did you end in the same issues as I
> > >> ended?  
> > > 
> > > Nope, I read the release notes and simply did
> > > 
> > > (correct sources.list)
> > > apt-get update
> > > apt-get upgrade
> > > apt-get dist-upgrade
> > > (pending reboot)  
> > 
> > Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> > dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?
> > 
> 
> As far as I remember, that's been advised, not mandatory, in all the
> upgrade sections of release notes that I have ever seen. Presumably,
> serious problems in an upgrade are potentially less difficult to
> recover from than those during a dist-upgrade, as only new software and
> version changes have been installed.

Some time round about Etch or Potato there was a problem with udev and
the two-step process was obligatory and also involved a reboot. My
recollection might be incorrect but, to some extent, the procedure has
passed into folklore.

> Package architecture changes and other alterations which only a
> dist-upgrade can achieve would seem to me to be likely to be harder to
> roll back. Of course, there's no reason why a small number of problems
> in only the dist-upgrade changes should not occur, making no
> difference to the methods.

Indeed.

> Maybe it's also for the psychological effect of dividing the task into
> two parts, with time for a break and a sigh of relief when the first
> part goes without difficulty...

I really like that as an explanation. Following the two-step procedure
does no harm; it lowers the blood pressure!

-- 
Brian.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Brian]

On Mon 26 Jun 2017 at 13:06:29 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
> > Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> > dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?
> 
> Probably because (s)he read the release notes:
> 
> 

The notes are clear but what is the point of following this procedure?

You do an upgrade, so an upgrade is done. No new packages. Fair enough.
You are none the wiser about what would happen if a dist-upgrade is done
next, so it is still a dive into the unknown.

Then you dist-upgrade. Why not leave out the previous step, unless there
are packages you wish to keep? Perhaps an illustrative example of when
the single-step process dist-upgrade fails would be helpful. The advice

 This has the effect of upgrading those packages which can be
 upgraded without requiring any other packages to be removed
 or installed

simply repeats what apt-get(8) says without its detailed explanation.

(I upgrade, reboot, dist-upgrade, But I am into cargo-cult).

-- 
Brian.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Joe]

On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 03:04:30 +1000
John Elliot V  wrote:

> On 26/06/17 23:12, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> So, how are your experiences? Did you end in the same issues as I
> >> ended?  
> > 
> > Nope, I read the release notes and simply did
> > 
> > (correct sources.list)
> > apt-get update
> > apt-get upgrade
> > apt-get dist-upgrade
> > (pending reboot)  
> 
> Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?
> 

As far as I remember, that's been advised, not mandatory, in all the
upgrade sections of release notes that I have ever seen. Presumably,
serious problems in an upgrade are potentially less difficult to
recover from than those during a dist-upgrade, as only new software and
version changes have been installed.

Package architecture changes and other alterations which only a
dist-upgrade can achieve would seem to me to be likely to be harder to
roll back. Of course, there's no reason why a small number of problems
in only the dist-upgrade changes should not occur, making no
difference to the methods.

Maybe it's also for the psychological effect of dividing the task into
two parts, with time for a break and a sigh of relief when the first
part goes without difficulty...

-- 
Joe 

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[John Elliot V]

On 27/06/17 03:06, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
>> Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
>> dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?
>
> Probably because (s)he read the release notes

Oh. Right. Thanks. :)

-- 
E: j...@jj5.net
P: +61 4 3505 7839
W: https://www.jj5.net/
<>

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:04:30AM +1000, John Elliot V wrote:
> Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
> dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?

Probably because (s)he read the release notes:

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[John Elliot V]

On 26/06/17 23:12, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> So, how are your experiences? Did you end in the same issues as I ended?
> 
> Nope, I read the release notes and simply did
> 
> (correct sources.list)
> apt-get update
> apt-get upgrade
> apt-get dist-upgrade
> (pending reboot)

Can I ask why you did the apt-get upgrade before the apt-get
dist-upgrade? Why not just go straight for apt-get dist-upgrade..?

-- 
E: j...@jj5.net
P: +61 4 3505 7839
W: https://www.jj5.net/
<>

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Jörg-Volker Peetz]

For every release the Debian developers take the trouble to write down an
upgrade guide
https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgradingpackages
.
Did you take a look at it?
In my opinion it's written very clear and easy to read. Many thanks from me for
all this work.
I think it answers all your questions.

Regards,
jvp.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Joe]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 15:46:00 +0200
Hans  wrote:

> Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017, 08:26:38 CEST schrieb John Hasler:
> > Hans writes:  
> Interesting! I did not notice apt, just used apt-get, apt-cache and
> so on. Just read the manual of apt. However, aptitude has also its
> worth, as for me it is faster to see, which dependencies are existent
> for the packages. I like ncurses-guis. 
> 

Aptitude does a better job of resolving dependencies than apt-get.
Unfortunately, the other side of that coin is that it takes longer to
do a particular job, and large numbers of simultaneous upgrades cause
it to run very slowly. It therefore doesn't handle version upgrades
very well, and may break. Some versions ago, aptitude was the
recommended tool for the upgrade, but that has not been the case for
the last two or three.

I have two mobile installations of sid, which may go for months
without getting upgraded. This means that when the time comes, there may
well be hundreds of upgrades, and I gave up long ago using aptitude for
that job. If it's a short time since the last upgrade, I'll use
aptitude, but not otherwise.

-- 
Joe

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Seg, 26 Jun 2017, Hans wrote:

But it would be nice, if we could agree to ONE tool, which is to be
used for dist-upgrades.

And this should be well documented! At the moment IMO there are too  
many tools and that makes it very confusing, doesn't it?


For the specific case of upgrading to stretch, there is one  
recommended tool, and it's documented in the release notes (as are  
other things one should be aware when upgrading).


Spoiler: It's apt-get.

--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Hans]

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017, 15:46:00 CEST schrieb Hans:
I am responsing to myself. Just checked aptitude wiki. It is already well 
documented (what I did not know, yet), so there is no further agreement 
necessary.
On the other hand, it is good to see, that my experiences are made by other 
people, too. So I can exclude my own dumbness. :)

All this does not inhibit one thing: making debian better and better (although 
it might be already the best operating system on earth).

Best regards and happy hacking

Hans
> > Hans writes:
> Interesting! I did not notice apt, just used apt-get, apt-cache and so on.
> Just read the manual of apt. However, aptitude has also its worth, as for me
> it is faster to see, which dependencies are existent for the packages. I
> like ncurses-guis.
> 
> Same is related to synaptic, which is good to fix dependency problems.
> However, as far as I know, synaptic is just a frontend for aptitude and
> apt.
> 
> I do not want to blame any of these tools, as they might all have their
> goods and bads. But it would be nice, if we could agree to ONE tool, which
> is to be used for dist-upgrades.
> 
> And this should be well documented! At the moment IMO there are too many
> tools and that makes it very confusing, doesn't it?
> 
> Ok,. now we have about 2 years, to find the best way till the next "stable".
> 
> Best
> 
> Hans

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Alberto Luaces]

Jonathan Dowland writes:

> That's not going to happen. I'm not even sure aptitude is maintained anymore.

Yes, it is.  And I am glad because it is my favourite tool for dealing
with updating and conflict resolving:

https://packages.qa.debian.org/a/aptitude.html

-- 
Alberto

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Hans]

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017, 08:26:38 CEST schrieb John Hasler:
> Hans writes:
Interesting! I did not notice apt, just used apt-get, apt-cache and so on. 
Just read the manual of apt. However, aptitude has also its worth, as for me 
it is faster to see, which dependencies are existent for the packages. I like 
ncurses-guis. 

Same is related to synaptic, which is good to fix dependency problems. However, 
as far as I know, synaptic is just a frontend for aptitude and apt. 
 
I do not want to blame any of these tools, as they might all have their goods 
and bads. But it would be nice, if we could agree to ONE tool, which is to be 
used for dist-upgrades. 

And this should be well documented! At the moment IMO there are too many tools 
and that makes it very confusing, doesn't it?

Ok,. now we have about 2 years, to find the best way till the next "stable".

Best

Hans  
> Use apt.  It is intended as an end-user interface and does everything
> apt-get does.  Apt-get is actually intended as a "back-end" tool.

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[John Hasler]

Hans writes:
> As I read, aptitude is the tool for the future, so I fear, apt-get will
> disappear some day. Please don't! Aptitude does not do the job (full-upgrade)
> very well at the moment.

Use apt.  It is intended as an end-user interface and does everything
apt-get does.  Apt-get is actually intended as a "back-end" tool.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: How did you update to stretch?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 02:50:38PM +0200, Hans wrote:

I am running debian now since "potatoe", which is a rather loong time. And
in all this time I never got into any bad problems. Impressiv!


Nice. Potato was when I got started too, but I do not have any continually 
updated systems from that time. I guess if I had kept my potato machines, I'd 
still be running a Pentium Pro P200 with 32M of RAM. Still useful for something

I'm sure :)


I always remarked at every update to the next stable version is, that aptitude
might  not be the best choice for that. At every update, aptitude is ending in
a loop with trying to solve dependency conflicts.


The release notes explicitly say not to use aptitude for this. You are right,
it does not work as well.


So, how are your experiences? Did you end in the same issues as I ended?


Nope, I read the release notes and simply did

(correct sources.list)
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
apt-get dist-upgrade
(pending reboot)


As I read, aptitude is the tool for the future, so I fear, apt-get will
disappear some day. Please don't! Aptitude does not do the job (full-upgrade)
very well at the moment.


That's not going to happen. I'm not even sure aptitude is maintained anymore.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland

⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

How did you update to stretch?

[Hans]

Hi folks,

I am running debian now since "potatoe", which is a rather loong time. And 
in all this time I never got into any bad problems. Impressiv! 

But I think, there is a little think worth to be noticed, and maybe, 
discussed.

I always remarked at every update to the next stable version is, that aptitude 
might  not be the best choice for that. At every update, aptitude is ending in 
a loop with trying to solve dependency conflicts. 

This is strange, as aptitude is running fine when using for regularly upgrades. 

So, how are your experiences? Did you end in the same issues as I ended?

The solution for me is using "apt-get dist-upgrade" and afterwards "aptitude 
full-upgrade". Doing so is working like a charme.

As I read, aptitude is the tool for the future, so I fear, apt-get will 
disappear some day. Please don't! Aptitude does not do the job (full-upgrade) 
very well at the moment. 

I believe, this is not a bug, I more believe. this is a problem for the 
algorithm to solve the complexity of the dependencies due to the complicated 
ruleset aptitude is using. As far as I know, apt-get is using a more simple 
ruleset, so it can resolve dependencies better.

What are your experiences? What are you prefer at distribution upgrades?

If this discussion is interesting for you, I will be happy, if not, sorry for 
the noise. 

Best regards and thanks for debian!

Hans