Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-05 Thread Ryan Nowakowski



On September 4, 2024 5:18:53 PM CDT, "Andrew M.A. Cater"  
wrote:
>On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
>> I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
>> to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
>> familiar with school systems and other institutions).
>> 
>
>If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo 
>Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

 +1 to this. I've had great luck with used Thinkpads.



Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-05 Thread ael
On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
> to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
> familiar with school systems and other institutions).

You seem to be across the pond, but I suggest that you look at Clevo
machines if you are looking at laptops. These are usually sold under
other names but come without any Windows. You can buy without any
operating system but often are available with the option to pre-install
various linux distributions.

A quick search suggested https://system76.com. There must be many more.
I have not used system76, so can't comment on their offerings.

I am writing this on a Clevo laptop which has been reliable and fast,
purchased in the UK with no operating system. It was very good value.

ael



Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread tomas
On Thu, Sep 05, 2024 at 06:30:25AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> Currently I buy them at a brick-and-mortar store in my city [...]

And, oh, by default they come empty or with pre-installed Ubuntu. You
can order them with Windows, but this costs extra (as it should be).

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread tomas
On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 10:18:53PM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
> > to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
> > familiar with school systems and other institutions).
> > 
> 
> If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo 
> Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

I second that. Linux-only since... uh... 1995 or something. Second-hand
thinkpads (with two exceptions: one eee-PC (was good, for the time) and
one Lenovo Ideapad (not so good, but my employer insisted), both new.

Currently I buy them at a brick-and-mortar store in my city specialised
in refurbished gear. Some markup wrt technofeudalist stores, but friendly
folks who know what they're doing, so worth my support every cent.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Russell L. Harris

For inexpensive, low-mileage, office-quality machines (laptop &
desktop) try blairtech.com.

You'll get a W10 or W11 machine.



Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Tom Browder
On Wed, Sep 4, 2024 at 17:47 Charles Curley
...

What did you replace the H&R Block program with?


Free TaxUSA, recommended by my lawyer son. it's free, but I paid extra
(still less that H&R) for some extra features. It worked great for 2023, I
will use it again for 2024.

Note I've been audited twice by the IRS, so I'm pretty reliant on a good
tax program. I tried going with a CPA once, but he had more forms for me to
fill out than the tax programs, and wanted a large fee besides.

Thanks, all respondents, for good advice on my laptop quest.

-Tom


Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Eike Lantzsch ZP5CGE / KY4PZ
On Wednesday, 4 September 2024 18:47:25 -04 Charles Curley wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 17:04:33 -0500
>
> Tom Browder  wrote:
> > I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the
> > problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped
> > Windows entirely some months ago when I found a decent, modern
> > replacement for Microsoft Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax
> > program).
>
> I've never had a problem with dual booting both Windows and Linux, and
> I started doing that in the 1990s. Install Windows first. It will hog
> the entire drive, so the next step is to shrink its partition to
> something reasonable. The Windows rescue partition is usually at the
> end of the disk; you can leave it there. Then install Linux on the
> newly freed up space.
>
> I find a 256GB SSD suitable for me; for your purpose a 128 GB drive
> should do it.
>
> What did you replace the H&R Block program with?

Hi Tom,
I shy away from HP Laptops since the time they still were COMPAQs. I
once was given a HP Laptop for free and it is only doing its job now as
an OpenBSD terminal with RS232 connections to several other boxes.
I preferred buying refurbished pro LENOVOs which are more likely to have
hardware which works fine with both Linux and OpenBSD and is inexpensive.
My last purchase of a Laptop was a TUXEDO with Ubuntu KDE preinstalled.
All devices are guaranteed to work and they do. But that does not fit
into you requirement of "inexpesive" I guess. O, and it hosts two
virtual machines with Win10home and Win11pro which also are working
flawlessly.

I wish you success
--
Eike Lantzsch KY4PZ / ZP5CGE





Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Charles Curley
On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 17:04:33 -0500
Tom Browder  wrote:

> I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the
> problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped
> Windows entirely some months ago when I found a decent, modern
> replacement for Microsoft Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax
> program).

I've never had a problem with dual booting both Windows and Linux, and
I started doing that in the 1990s. Install Windows first. It will hog
the entire drive, so the next step is to shrink its partition to
something reasonable. The Windows rescue partition is usually at the
end of the disk; you can leave it there. Then install Linux on the
newly freed up space.

I find a 256GB SSD suitable for me; for your purpose a 128 GB drive
should do it.

What did you replace the H&R Block program with?

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/



Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Alain D D Williams
On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
> to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
> familiar with school systems and other institutions).

I suggest an HP stream. I got myself an 11" one for £210 about 2 years ago. I
get 12+ hours from the battery.
11" screen is great for me to carry around in my ruck sack, for a student maybe
a 14" one:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/3419636

Other models, I do not know the difference, dig deep in the specs:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/7085891

I live in the UK so prices in £ (pounds).

I wiped it completely and installed Linux Mint. Works well, the only thing that
needed fiddling was to get it to hibernate when I shut the lid.

> All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
> Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young people
> have been exposed to.

Just wipe it install Linux.

A few years ago I bought 2 identical laptops. At the same time I switched both
on and on one let MS Windows set itself up. The other I installed Linux.
The Linux one was installed & ready to work while the other was still wallying
around - which I did not let it finish.

I would suggest that any machine you are thinking of buying you go to the shop
and boot it from a memory stick‡‡ to check that it all works under Linux. The
most important thing that you might have problems with is the WiFi card.

‡‡ Booting from memory stick will not change the hard disk, ie is safe to do.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include 



Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater
On Wed, Sep 04, 2024 at 05:04:33PM -0500, Tom Browder wrote:
> I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
> to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
> familiar with school systems and other institutions).
> 

If you're going to set it up from your own money - second hand Lenovo 
Thinkpads / HP laptops ex-business.

Relatively cheap, robust and available - and there will likely be more
given Windows 11 requirements.

A very good friend once taught a class of teenagers Linux after helping
them build their own computers from junk and older donated hardware.
Each teen got a free computer but had to research manuals, motherboard
connectors, motherboard and processor specifications ...

This gave them a really good grounding for appreciating hardware and
software. Most of them ended up running Debian, I think.

> I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the problems I
> see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped Windows entirely
> some months ago when I found a decent, modern replacement for Microsoft
> Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax program).
> 

With UEFI, it's possible.

> All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
> Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young people
> have been exposed to.
> 

A fun exercise is to ask them to reinstall windows from scratch,
help them partition the disk and then install Debian from scratch.

All best, with whatever you decide to do

Andrew Cater
(amaca...@debian.org)
> Note I do not  want to get involved with Chromebooks.
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions.
> 
> -Tom



Re: Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Pierre-Elliott Bécue
Tom Browder  wrote on 05/09/2024 at 00:04:33+0200:

> I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I
> want to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu
> is more familiar with school systems and other institutions).
>
> I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the
> problems I see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped
> Windows entirely some months ago when I found a decent, modern
> replacement for Microsoft Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax
> program).

I have a Windows 11/Debian Trixie dualboot on my workstation, never had
a single issue. FWIW, when you install Debian after Windows in general
things go well. Of course depending on the UEFI BIOS, things can be a
bit rough to configure properly, but when it's done it's good.

> All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
> Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young
> people have been exposed to.
>
> Note I do not  want to get involved with Chromebooks.

Good idea.

So, to come back to your point: if you buy cheap laptops with windows,
no one is forcing you to keep it. But dual boot shouldn't be an issue
and can ease the switch for people you're trying to onboard.

Remember to shrink the windows partition from Windows itself, as
otherwise it might really get screwed up.
-- 
PEB


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Need advice on a usable, inexpensive laptop for Debian

2024-09-04 Thread Tom Browder
I'm trying to propose a computer lab for young wannabe coders, and I want
to use a Linux box (I prefer Debian, but I get the feeling Ubuntu is more
familiar with school systems and other institutions).

I am torn with whether dual boot is the way to go, given all the problems I
see with dual boot with Windows now. (I finally dumped Windows entirely
some months ago when I found a decent, modern replacement for Microsoft
Word and for the H&R Block US Federal tax program).

All the cheap laptops in local Best Buys and other local stores have
Windows installed, and, to be fair, that's all most adults and young people
have been exposed to.

Note I do not  want to get involved with Chromebooks.

Thanks for any suggestions.

-Tom


Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Sven Arvidsson
On Fri, 2015-05-29 at 19:03 -0500, John Aten wrote:
> I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch
> laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec
> range that I would like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is
> possibly a good indication that I could install Debian;

I haven't found exact specifications, but I think that the Dell/Ubuntu
offerings have Nvidia graphics, and that means you're stuck with either
proprietary drivers or not-so-well-supported reverse engineered drivers.

If you're not looking for high-performance graphics Intel is usually the
safe choice. And try to avoid any systems with dual/switchable graphics.

You might consider buying a used or refurbished system. Good support
usually takes time to develop, so if you want everything to work on a
brand new system you might want to run the latest kernel, latest X and
Mesa, don't have to be afraid to try patches, file bug reports and
feedback. 

If you plan on running a stable release of Debian, a slightly older
system is probably not a disadvantage.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5




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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Jape Person

On 05/30/2015 03:25 AM, Stuart Longland wrote:

The other option might be to look at Lenovo's offerings,
there might be some Superfish-ridden ones that sellers will
be trying to offload dirt cheap: the malware being easily
removed with the Debian installer. ;-)


I'll add a vote for Lenovo. I've been using Toshibas (earlier) 
and Dells (later) since laptops first became available. They've 
always been my daily drivers, so to speak.


Years ago Toshibas with plasma displays and the early monochrome 
LCDs were built like tanks. I got knocked off a motorcycle from 
behind by a pickup driver's California mirror while carrying a 
Toshiba laptop in a backpack. I landed on top of the laptop in a 
great big mud puddle, breaking several ribs in the process. I 
partially disassembled the entirely intact case, rinsed 
everything with liberal application of alcohol, dried it all 
with a high speed fan, and used it without failure for another 
couple of years. I replaced it only because I needed a more 
powerful system.


The next Toshiba fell apart in my hands within a few months.

The Dell Inspiron and Latitude laptops I've used over the years 
have been downright heavy and flimsy, with failure-prone hinges 
and creaky keyboards and motherboards. (You can feel them bend a 
little when you pick them up.) Lots of hard drive and controller 
failures. (At least they stood by their warranty, but three 
motherboards and two hard drives on the top-end Latitude in 
three years was a bit annoying, even with next-day service.)


I carry my systems everywhere and every day. If I had used these 
laptops under mechanically less stressful conditions they might 
have been fine. A laptop doesn't have to be tough if it's 
sitting on the same desk every day.


But Lenovo -- now that's another story. I bought a T520i over 
the phone directly from Lenovo when the model first became 
available. They sold it to me without Windows, cheaper than the 
ones at their Web site because it didn't include the Microsoft 
tax. It has run like a train -- in the field at archeological 
digs, on planes and trains, on park benches, in cafes. It gets 
about 12-14 hours of solid use per day. The only failure was a 
key that broke when a student dropped a rock on the keyboard. 
Lenovo sent a free replacement keyboard with complete 
instructions for an easy repair at no cost.


Everything except the wifi worked with drivers from the main 
Debian repository. The firmware-iwlwifi package from non-free 
fixed that. Everything works beautifully.


I hope they're still making them like this when (or if) I need a 
replacement.



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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Tazman DeVille
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 07:03:40PM -0500, John Aten wrote:
>Hey all, 
> 
>  I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on getting 
> an
>   inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for lighter duty
> functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically, I am looking 
> for
> something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook. Most laptops that I 
> have
> seen that come with Debian or other distros preinstalled seem to be more
> expensive than I would like, so that of course leaves me installing it 
> myself. I
>have researched this, and can never seem to find solid information on the
>laptops that are currently available; the information is usually a little
> dated. 
> 
>I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there
>are problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end
>fast. I would like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my
>very modest skills.
> 
>  I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch laptop 
> with
>   Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range that I would
> like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a good indication 
> that
> I could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that is a good assumption, 
> and
> also if anyone has had any experience with installing Debian on this 
> particular
>model. (I have an older Inspiron, on which I have had good luck installing
>  several different distros, including Debian, but I don't know that this 
> really
> indicates anything either.) Second, aside from this particular model, if 
> anyone
>has recommendations on any other laptops in that price/spec range?
> 
>I'd appreciate any help and opinions.
>Thanks,
>J

I have several times purchased used Dell laptops on ebay, a d420, a
d620, and a d630, all of which worked with Debian "out of the box" so to
speak. I also had an old Thinkpad a21m that worked flawlessly with
Debian (but required an external PCMCIA card for wifi, and installation
of relevant drivers).

./tony
http://www.tonybaldwin.m.e


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Konstantinos Pachnis
Hello,

On 29-05-2015, John Aten wrote:
> Hey all, 
> 
> I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on getting 
> an inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for lighter 
> duty functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically, I am 
> looking for something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook. Most 
> laptops that I have seen that come with Debian or other distros preinstalled 
> seem to be more expensive than I would like, so that of course leaves me 
> installing it myself. I have researched this, and can never seem to find 
> solid information on the laptops that are currently available; the 
> information is usually a little dated. 
> 
> I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there are 
> problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end fast. I 
> would like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my very modest 
> skills.
> I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch laptop 
> with Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range that I 
> would like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a good 
> indication that I could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that is a 
> good assumption, and also if anyone has had any experience with installing 
> Debian on this particular model. (I have an older Inspiron, on which I have 
> had good luck installing several different distros, including Debian, but I 
> don't know that this really indicates anything either.) Second, aside from 
> this particular model, if anyone has recommendations on any other laptops in 
> that price/spec range?
> 
> I'd appreciate any help and opinions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> J

I would recommend the Libreboot X200[1]

1. http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/product/libreboot-x200/

Cheers,

-- 
Konstantinos


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Reco
 Hi.

On Sat, 30 May 2015 17:47:15 +1000
Stuart Longland  wrote:

> On 30/05/15 17:31, Reco wrote:
> >> If you buy a Dell with Windows 7 installed on it, you'd better try and use 
> >> Windows to shrink the partition and make room for Linux. 
> > … You just by an extra 3.5'' form-factor disk and replace the stock
> > one. Next you install Debian at the new disk, and keep the old one in
> > case you need your notebook repaired.
> 
> 3.5" or 2.5"?  I thought only "desktop replacements" had 3.5" drives.

A slip of the finger on my side. I meant 2.5".


> I think I did similar with the Panasonic I have, bought a new 1TB to
> replace the 500GB drive and a 2.5" drive case.  Loaded fresh 64-bit
> Windows 7 and Gentoo onto the 1TB drive (the OEM image was 32-bit Win7)
> and kept the original disk external.
> 
> I think it wound up being reformatted and used as an off-site backup
> drive for my web server in the end when one of my existing disks for
> that purpose developed faults.
> 
> So there is merit in that suggestion: you get an external HDD that you
> can use in the meantime and an upgrade at the same time.

That way it work too, of course. But keeping original disk intact saves
you many questions from those service guys.

Reco


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Stuart Longland
On 30/05/15 17:31, Reco wrote:
>> If you buy a Dell with Windows 7 installed on it, you'd better try and use 
>> Windows to shrink the partition and make room for Linux. 
> … You just by an extra 3.5'' form-factor disk and replace the stock
> one. Next you install Debian at the new disk, and keep the old one in
> case you need your notebook repaired.

3.5" or 2.5"?  I thought only "desktop replacements" had 3.5" drives.

I think I did similar with the Panasonic I have, bought a new 1TB to
replace the 500GB drive and a 2.5" drive case.  Loaded fresh 64-bit
Windows 7 and Gentoo onto the 1TB drive (the OEM image was 32-bit Win7)
and kept the original disk external.

I think it wound up being reformatted and used as an off-site backup
drive for my web server in the end when one of my existing disks for
that purpose developed faults.

So there is merit in that suggestion: you get an external HDD that you
can use in the meantime and an upgrade at the same time.
-- 
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Reco
 Hi.

On Fri, 29 May 2015 23:37:19 -0400
Doug  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 05/29/2015 10:38 PM, Robert Crawford wrote:
> >
> > On May 29, 2015 7:04 PM, "John Aten"  > > wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Hey all,
> >  > I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on 
> > getting an inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for 
> > lighter duty functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically, 
> > I am looking for something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook. 
> > Most laptops that I have seen that come with Debian or other distros 
> > preinstalled seem to be more expensive than I would like, so that of course 
> > leaves me installing it myself. I have researched this, and can never seem 
> > to find solid information on the laptops that are currently available; the 
> > information is usually a little dated.
> >  > I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there 
> > are problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end fast. 
> > I would like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my very 
> > modest skills.
> >  > I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch 
> > laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range 
> > that I would like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a 
> > good indication that I could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that 
> > is a good assumption, and also if anyone has had any experience with 
> > installing Debian on this particular model. (I have an older Inspiron, on 
> > which I have had good luck installing several different distros, including 
> > Debian, but I don't know that this really indicates anything either.) 
> > Second, aside from this particular model, if anyone has recommendations on 
> > any other laptops in that price/spec range?
> >  > I'd appreciate any help and opinions.
> >  >
> >  > Thanks,
> >  >
> >  > J
> >
> > John,
> >
> > I just bought a Dell Latitude D810, I installed 80gb ide hard drive. It 
> > came with 512mb ram. I've install a 512 module until my other ram comes in. 
> >  I 2gb ordered (total 768mb). I installed Xubuntu 14.04.1 on it. It has a 
> > single core CPU.  Ethernet and WiFi works. I got everything from EBay. This 
> > was a low cost laptop. I'm very happy with it.
> >
> > If you want dual core & sata hd, look for a latitude D820-D830 series.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > I
> >
> If you buy a Dell with Windows 7 installed on it, you'd better try and use 
> Windows to shrink the partition and make room for Linux. 

… You just by an extra 3.5'' form-factor disk and replace the stock
one. Next you install Debian at the new disk, and keep the old one in
case you need your notebook repaired.

Which measure:

a) Saves you the trouble of running Windows and re-partitioning the
drive.

b) Ensures that those sneaky repair guys would not be able to do highly
questionable stuff which includes, but not limited to:

- Copying your data.

- Completely destroying your custom partitioning *and* your Debian
installation by re-installing aforementioned Windows.


It's impossible to dual-boot this way, of course.

Reco


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-30 Thread Stuart Longland
On 30/05/15 10:03, John Aten wrote:
> 
>   Hey all, 
> 
> 
>   I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on
>   getting an inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine
>   for lighter duty functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc.
>   Basically, I am looking for something with a little more muscle than a
>   Chromebook. Most laptops that I have seen that come with Debian or
>   other distros preinstalled seem to be more expensive than I would
>   like, so that of course leaves me installing it myself. I have
>   researched this, and can never seem to find solid information on the
>   laptops that are currently available; the information is usually a
>   little dated. 
> 
> I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there
> are problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end
> fast. I would like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my
> very modest skills.

I don't recall the full specifications but my father's laptop recently
started showing signs of failure so I bought what looked to be the
closest equivalent, a Toshiba Satellite L50.

http://www.umart.com.au/umart1/pro/Products-details.phtml?id=&id2=66&bid=2&sid=191907&Toshiba%20SATPro%20L50%20PSKTBA-001001%20L50%20i5-4210U,%2015.6

The rough specs:
- Intel Core i5 4210U
- 4GB RAM (takes low-voltage DDR3)
- 750GB HDD

It came pre-loaded with Windows 7 Pro and had Windows 8.1 discs in the
box.  One thing I found though was that the Windows resize tool wouldn't
let me shrink the OS image down to make room for a separate D:
partition.  So I network-booted the thing into Ubuntu 12.04 to use
gParted.  This worked fine, and on rebooting and doing a disk check,
Windows 7 was happy too.

Under Ubuntu I was able to try the machine out a little:
- Wifi was Atheros-based and JustWorked.
- I think the machine features two GPUs, an Intel one and an AMD Radeon
one, the Intel one JustWorked, I didn't try any serious 3D stuff that
would call on the other.
- Ethernet of course worked too (otherwise it'd have trouble network
booting)

Everything seemed to be doing as advertised.  The worst case I'd imagine
would be having to download non-free firmware for the wifi, but it
otherwise worked with standard drivers on the Ubuntu LiveCD.  I don't
see Debian as being a particular problem.

The only downside with this machine, and it was a big disappointment was
the build quality seems to have suffered a bit with the race to the
bottom.  I bought an 8GB RAM module to up it to 12GB (the previous
machine had 8GB total, so I thought I'd either equal or better it).

There's no dedicated hatch for HDD or RAM.  To get at the RAM slot, you
have to take out 12 (I think?) screws and release 4 hidden catches to
remove the *entire* bottom panel.  Out of the box (before I opened it)
the machine rattled a bit: on opening the box I found a loose screw (!)
near one of the screen hinges.

I think the race to the bottom has hurt all the manufacturers.  Other
than that though, the machine has been performing solidly for the last
few months.  So it seems it's a cheap and cheerful rather than a cheap
and nasty laptop.

The other option might be to look at Lenovo's offerings, there might be
some Superfish-ridden ones that sellers will be trying to offload dirt
cheap: the malware being easily removed with the Debian installer. ;-)

Regards,
-- 
Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL)

I haven't lost my mind...
  ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.


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Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-29 Thread Juha Heinanen
John Aten writes:

> Basically, I am looking for something with a little more muscle
> than a Chromebook.

Well, some of the cheap Acer Chromebooks come with i3 processors and are
more than adequate for what you describe.

-- Juha


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-29 Thread Bret Busby
On 30/05/2015, John Aten  wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on getting
> an inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for lighter
> duty functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically, I am
> looking for something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook. Most
> laptops that I have seen that come with Debian or other distros preinstalled
> seem to be more expensive than I would like, so that of course leaves me
> installing it myself. I have researched this, and can never seem to find
> solid information on the laptops that are currently available; the
> information is usually a little dated.
>
> I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there are
> problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end fast. I
> would like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my very modest
> skills.
> I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch laptop
> with Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range that I
> would like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a good
> indication that I could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that is a
> good assumption, and also if anyone has had any experience with installing
> Debian on this particular model. (I have an older Inspiron, on which I have
> had good luck installing several different distros, including Debian, but I
> don't know that this really indicates anything either.) Second, aside from
> this particular model, if anyone has recommendations on any other laptops in
> that price/spec range?
>
> I'd appreciate any help and opinions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> J


Hello.

Whilst the query is apparently, relatively long, it is vague and unclear.

An important point, is where (in which country), you are located.

Also, the above text does not include whether you want to run an
external monitor (this sometimes, in itself leads to problems,
depending on the hardware and the operating system and available
drivers).

Now, as an example of the need for such information, one of the
computers that I have purchased in the last year, is an Acer laptop,
with 4GB of RAM, and a 500GB HDD, for about 400AUD (I am in australia,
as is shown in my signature. The price would be equivalent to about
300USD, given the present exchange rate, depending on the government
and other charges. The computer came with MS Win8 preinstalled, which
required the HDD to be reconfigured, which resulted in the MS Win8
installation taking up about 250GB of the HDD, due to the unmovable
files. In the text above, I believe you did not specify the minimum
HDD capacity, or, other hardware specifications, that you require. the
remianing 250GBN of HDD space, therefore, may or may not be adequate
for you. Installing Debian was relatively simple; using the inferior
system Setup Utility, the boot system was switched from UEFI, to
Legacy, and the installation was, as usual, relatively simple.

So, depending on your wants and needs, such a computer may fill your needs.

Or, it may not.

You need to be more specific in your specificantions requirements.

Also, you need to specify which version(s) of Debian Linux, you want
to install and run.

I also have a super-dooper Acer laptop, that cost me about 2000 AUD,
with an i7 CPU and 32GB of RAM. It is powerful, and, after 18 months,
I am still trying to get it set up to operate the way that I want,
with the functionality that I want.

Whether you want or need something like that one, is not clear, from
your message above, due to the lack of detail.

In this, the proverb in my signature, is useful - clear statement of
requirements, is needed.

-- 
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992




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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-29 Thread Doug



On 05/29/2015 10:38 PM, Robert Crawford wrote:


On May 29, 2015 7:04 PM, "John Aten" mailto:welcome.to.eye.o.r...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > Hey all,
 > I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on getting 
an inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for lighter duty 
functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically, I am looking for 
something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook. Most laptops that I have 
seen that come with Debian or other distros preinstalled seem to be more expensive 
than I would like, so that of course leaves me installing it myself. I have 
researched this, and can never seem to find solid information on the laptops that 
are currently available; the information is usually a little dated.
 > I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there are 
problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end fast. I would 
like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my very modest skills.
 > I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch laptop 
with Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range that I would 
like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a good indication that I 
could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that is a good assumption, and 
also if anyone has had any experience with installing Debian on this particular 
model. (I have an older Inspiron, on which I have had good luck installing several 
different distros, including Debian, but I don't know that this really indicates 
anything either.) Second, aside from this particular model, if anyone has 
recommendations on any other laptops in that price/spec range?
 > I'd appreciate any help and opinions.
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > J

John,

I just bought a Dell Latitude D810, I installed 80gb ide hard drive. It came 
with 512mb ram. I've install a 512 module until my other ram comes in.  I 2gb 
ordered (total 768mb). I installed Xubuntu 14.04.1 on it. It has a single core 
CPU.  Ethernet and WiFi works. I got everything from EBay. This was a low cost 
laptop. I'm very happy with it.

If you want dual core & sata hd, look for a latitude D820-D830 series.

Robert

I


If you buy a Dell with Windows 7 installed on it, you'd better try and use 
Windows to shrink the partition and make room for Linux. I have a Latitude 
E6510, and I used GParted. Windows or Dell, one or the other, didn't like
that, and I had trouble with an installation of PCLOS. I wound up with a small 
partition directly after Windows with a tiny piece of Linux on it, which is 
otherwise useless, and the real Linux os installed after that partition.
Without that partition, Linux won't play. Actually, that partition started out 
as a large useless partition, but it turned out OK to shrink it down to almost 
nothing, but not eliminate it. Screwy, but true.

I would guess (remember I said *guess*) that if you wipe Windows altogether and 
format the whole drive with ext4 you won't have that problem.

--doug


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Re: Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-29 Thread Robert Crawford
On May 29, 2015 7:04 PM, "John Aten" 
wrote:
>
> Hey all,
> I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on
getting an inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for
lighter duty functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically,
I am looking for something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook.
Most laptops that I have seen that come with Debian or other distros
preinstalled seem to be more expensive than I would like, so that of course
leaves me installing it myself. I have researched this, and can never seem
to find solid information on the laptops that are currently available; the
information is usually a little dated.
> I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there
are problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end fast.
I would like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my very
modest skills.
> I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch laptop
with Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range that I
would like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a good
indication that I could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that is a
good assumption, and also if anyone has had any experience with installing
Debian on this particular model. (I have an older Inspiron, on which I have
had good luck installing several different distros, including Debian, but I
don't know that this really indicates anything either.) Second, aside from
this particular model, if anyone has recommendations on any other laptops
in that price/spec range?
> I'd appreciate any help and opinions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> J

John,

I just bought a Dell Latitude D810, I installed 80gb ide hard drive. It
came with 512mb ram. I've install a 512 module until my other ram comes
in.  I 2gb ordered (total 768mb). I installed Xubuntu 14.04.1 on it. It has
a single core CPU.  Ethernet and WiFi works. I got everything from EBay.
This was a low cost laptop. I'm very happy with it.

If you want dual core & sata hd, look for a latitude D820-D830 series.

Robert

I


Inexpensive Laptop for Debian

2015-05-29 Thread John Aten
Hey all, 

I would like to see if anyone could give some advice or opinions on getting an 
inexpensive laptop to run Debian. I plan to use the machine for lighter duty 
functions; writing, web browsing, programming, etc. Basically, I am looking for 
something with a little more muscle than a Chromebook. Most laptops that I have 
seen that come with Debian or other distros preinstalled seem to be more 
expensive than I would like, so that of course leaves me installing it myself. 
I have researched this, and can never seem to find solid information on the 
laptops that are currently available; the information is usually a little 
dated. 

I have some experience setting up Debian and other distros, but if there are 
problems with hardware configuration, I get out into the deep end fast. I would 
like to avoid any problems that are beyond the reach of my very modest skills.
I see that Dell offers the Inspiron 14 or 15 3000 series non-touch laptop with 
Ubuntu preinstalled; this model is around the price/spec range that I would 
like. I figure, if it runs Ubuntu, then this is possibly a good indication that 
I could install Debian; I was wondering first, if that is a good assumption, 
and also if anyone has had any experience with installing Debian on this 
particular model. (I have an older Inspiron, on which I have had good luck 
installing several different distros, including Debian, but I don't know that 
this really indicates anything either.) Second, aside from this particular 
model, if anyone has recommendations on any other laptops in that price/spec 
range?

I'd appreciate any help and opinions.

Thanks,

J