Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Anssi Saari (12022-07-21): > Well, upgrading that to current Debian could be one way forward. There > are tools in Debian you can use to weed out the proprietary stuff if > that's a concern. Upgrades in Debian work in case you're unaware but > follow the release notes. Or I could debootstrap a brand new Debian in a directory, replace /sbin/init of the proprietary distribution with a shell script that waits 5 seconds for a tap on the touchscreen and either executes into systemd as if nothing had happened or chroots into the new distribution and executes its init, and once I am satisfied swap the files and directory on the root for the ons in the new Debian. These are things I know how to do. I would not need to ask for help to do them. In fact, I tend to use these solutions a little too soon when I should be trying a little harder to make the standard tools work. What is somewhat beyond my current skills is to properly install a bootloader for this device; but it seems properly documented and I could probably learn. What is significantly beyond my current skills is to configure a kernel and have the devices we need working. But... Two buts, actually. First but. My goal here was not to install Debian on a Rock Pi by any means necessary. The only thing that should be done by any means necessary is to end a dockers strike on a space station. My goal was also to provide some testing and documentation to something that is supposed to work. Had I had my way, I would have posted here a summary of what I learned, a little like I did in the past: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/msg00755.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/08/msg00179.html (Oh, somebody found the small programs I posted useful!) Second but. The kernel I got running is a 4.4, corresponding to Debian 9, which is too old to run a few important components of systemd from Debian 11. I could get a few other kernels booting, from Armbian or Manjaro. Unfortunately, none of these kernel did enable the MIPI (ribbon cable) display, and I could not find anybody on the web to managed to get it working with recent kernels. And MIPI display is a requirement for us. We will have to stay with an outdated kernel and systemd suite, and only partially updated libraries. Fortunately, the only contact with the outside world will be through GPIO, a touchscreen and a VPN to a trusted computer, that will mitigate the security considerations. I have suggested to the person in charge to offer a bounty for providing a compilation procedure for a recent kernel with working MIPI, but they said they could not afford it. I find it a bit strange, considering all they spend in test hardware for this project, but having been happily a public servant for all my adult life I have no idea how to price that kind of thing. Anyway, thanks for all the help even if it came to nothing. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Nicolas George writes: > Hi. I am trying to install Debian on a Rock Pi 4 (v1.73). It is a > system-on-chip similar to and mostly compatible with the Raspberry Pi 4 > but with an on-board SSD. > > I have managed to boot and install one of the Debian images provided by > the vendor, but they are obsolete or third-party or both. Well, upgrading that to current Debian could be one way forward. There are tools in Debian you can use to weed out the proprietary stuff if that's a concern. Upgrades in Debian work in case you're unaware but follow the release notes. > Does anybody have something to suggest? Not really. I had no luck installing Debian on my Raspberry Pi CM3+ with a CM-IO-POE-BOX base board so I went with Ubuntu since it just worked. With Debian I got nothing on the serial port. I think I asked on some mailing list and then was adviced to ask on IRC but got nowhere. Nobody seemed to have the same hardware. Could be something simple or not. I guess, with a running Ubuntu I could convert it to Debian, I've done such to a VPS running Ubuntu once. There were instructions to follow though.
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Stefan Monnier (12022-07-19): > I think the issue is that "Debian support" is distinct from "Debian > installer support". So you may need to use some other means to install > Debian than the official Debian installer. The Debian *installer* has: - an announce that this device is now supported: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/04/msg00011.html - files in the official repository labeled specifically for this device: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/firmware.rock-pi-4-rk3399.img.gz I can be wrong, but I think it means the installer is supposed to officially support it. Alas, the procedure described just along with the images: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/README.concatenateable_images … just does not work. > Personally I can't remember the last time I used the Debian installer to > install Debian. Instead I usually rely on things like `debootstrap` > (and for little boxes like the Rock Pi, I usually rely on third party > tools to install a boot loader and then configure the boot loader by > hand to load Debian's own kernel and initramfs (and occasionally compile > my own kernel by hand when the hardware is not supported well-enough by > the vanilla kernel)). It is my habit too, for architectures that I know well enough. But the boot process here is so rough, with no diagnostics, that I would have appreciated to have something well ironed for once. Thanks. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installer BoF video link - [WAS Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4]
Andrew M.A. Cater (12022-07-20): > > > I think it is usual practice for this kind of video to become > > > available for viewing > > > on demand in the near future. > > > > > > My recollection of the discussion is that Gunnar's work is welcomed > > > by the installer team. And it is hoped and expected by all parties to move > > > towards becoming official as a next step with the passage of time. > > > However this move is not an immediate priority, as there are other > > > changes under discussion regarding the installer, that are currently > > > considered to be more important. > The installer BoF is now in the Debconf video archives at > https://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2022/DebConf22/debconf22-294-debian-installer-and-images-team-bof.webm > and on PeerTube and YouTube. > > Disclaimer: I helped with raising many of the issues there but Gunnar and his > awesome work are not in issue :) Thanks. I do not have the time to watch it in whole right now, but I could skip over parts that were obviously about something else, and I spotted Raspberry Pi images mentioned twice, around 21' and 41', to say that they were still unofficial. This is different from my issue, since, unless I am reading things wrong, the Rock Pi 4 device is officially supported, see: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/04/msg00011.html # The Debian Installer team[1] is pleased to announce the first # release candidate of the installer for Debian 11 "Bullseye". # […] # Hardware support changes # # […] # - Add support for ROCK Pi 4 (A,B,C). And: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/ # [ ] firmware.rock-pi-4-rk3399.img.gz2022-07-05 15:57496K My issue is that the procedure described there: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/README.concatenateable_images … just does not work. On the other hand, I was quite interested by the talk about OEM images, around 43': images that we copy to the boot medium like live images but that will ask the questions and configure themselves permanently at first boot. I think it would be very useful for my other uses. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Installer BoF video link - [WAS Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4]
On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 06:54:40AM +0200, Christian Britz wrote: > Thank you, very interesting! > > >> I would call it semi-official. Gunnar Wolf is a respected Debian > >> developer and the debian.net domain is a property of the project. I > >> would prefer an official-official installer though. > > > > This was briefly touched on during a livestreamed discussion between > > the relevant Debian developers at Debconf less than 24 hours ago. > > I think it was this one: > > > > https://debconf22.debconf.org/talks/44-debian-installer-and-images-team-bof/ > > I think it is usual practice for this kind of video to become > > available for viewing > > on demand in the near future. > > > > My recollection of the discussion is that Gunnar's work is welcomed > > by the installer team. And it is hoped and expected by all parties to move > > towards becoming official as a next step with the passage of time. > > However this move is not an immediate priority, as there are other > > changes under discussion regarding the installer, that are currently > > considered to be more important. > > > > -- > http://www.cb-fraggle.de > The installer BoF is now in the Debconf video archives at https://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2022/DebConf22/debconf22-294-debian-installer-and-images-team-bof.webm and on PeerTube and YouTube. Disclaimer: I helped with raising many of the issues there but Gunnar and his awesome work are not in issue :) All the very best, as ever, Andy Cater
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Thank you, very interesting! >> I would call it semi-official. Gunnar Wolf is a respected Debian >> developer and the debian.net domain is a property of the project. I >> would prefer an official-official installer though. > > This was briefly touched on during a livestreamed discussion between > the relevant Debian developers at Debconf less than 24 hours ago. > I think it was this one: > https://debconf22.debconf.org/talks/44-debian-installer-and-images-team-bof/ > I think it is usual practice for this kind of video to become > available for viewing > on demand in the near future. > > My recollection of the discussion is that Gunnar's work is welcomed > by the installer team. And it is hoped and expected by all parties to move > towards becoming official as a next step with the passage of time. > However this move is not an immediate priority, as there are other > changes under discussion regarding the installer, that are currently > considered to be more important. > -- http://www.cb-fraggle.de
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
On Wed, 20 Jul 2022 at 01:26, Christian Britz wrote: > Am 19.07.22 um 17:16 schrieb Nicolas George: > > Christian Britz (12022-07-19): > >> The common way to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi is using one of the > >> images provided at raspi.debian.net. Once you got it installed, it is a > >> Debian system like others using the standard repositories. > > > > IIRC, debian.net is third-party. Since Debian says it supports this > > hardware, I would really like to avoid using third-party files. > > I would call it semi-official. Gunnar Wolf is a respected Debian > developer and the debian.net domain is a property of the project. I > would prefer an official-official installer though. This was briefly touched on during a livestreamed discussion between the relevant Debian developers at Debconf less than 24 hours ago. I think it was this one: https://debconf22.debconf.org/talks/44-debian-installer-and-images-team-bof/ I think it is usual practice for this kind of video to become available for viewing on demand in the near future. My recollection of the discussion is that Gunnar's work is welcomed by the installer team. And it is hoped and expected by all parties to move towards becoming official as a next step with the passage of time. However this move is not an immediate priority, as there are other changes under discussion regarding the installer, that are currently considered to be more important.
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Jeremy Ardley (12022-07-20): > In my personal use, I use 'official' debian and armbian, I don't see any > difference in function at all. They are 99.9% the same. The only difference > is the drivers and boot process. > > I use standard debian arm repositories for all software unrelated to the > specific drivers for the board (I presently use nano-pi for server and > router) Good for you, but obviously what you want to do is not the same thing as what I want to do. And you cannot know if I am wrong to want that, because I have not exposed my reasons. So, thanks for your input, but it is not the kind of help that I am seeking here. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
On 20/7/22 12:56 am, Nicolas George wrote: Jeremy Ardley (12022-07-20): I have had pretty consistent success with Armbian images - not Rock Pi, but equivalent systems from a variety of vendors. https://www.armbian.com/rockpi4/ Thank you. But this is not official Debian, which is what I am trying to achieve. In my personal use, I use 'official' debian and armbian, I don't see any difference in function at all. They are 99.9% the same. The only difference is the drivers and boot process. I use standard debian arm repositories for all software unrelated to the specific drivers for the board (I presently use nano-pi for server and router) -- Jeremy OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Jeremy Ardley (12022-07-20): > I have had pretty consistent success with Armbian images - not Rock > Pi, but equivalent systems from a variety of vendors. > > https://www.armbian.com/rockpi4/ Thank you. But this is not official Debian, which is what I am trying to achieve. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
On 19/7/22 10:03 pm, Nicolas George wrote: Hi. I am trying to install Debian on a Rock Pi 4 (v1.73). It is a system-on-chip similar to and mostly compatible with the Raspberry Pi 4 but with an on-board SSD. Does anybody have something to suggest? I have had pretty consistent success with Armbian images - not Rock Pi, but equivalent systems from a variety of vendors. https://www.armbian.com/rockpi4/ -- Jeremy OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Christian Britz (12022-07-19): > I do not doubt that. I just wanted to point out that at least the boot > system is not so similar. You called your device "similar to and mostly > compatible with the Raspberry Pi 4". At least for the installation > process that is not true. Indeed. I suppose the announced compatibility is about the software it can run and the pins that can be controlled. > I would call it semi-official. Gunnar Wolf is a respected Debian > developer and the debian.net domain is a property of the project. I > would prefer an official-official installer though. Thanks for the clarification. > Anyway, raspi.debian.net is intended solely for original Raspberry Pi > devices. I doubt that the images would work with your device. I doubt it too. Thanks. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Am 19.07.22 um 17:16 schrieb Nicolas George: > Christian Britz (12022-07-19): >> If this device really can boot the Debian installer, at least it's boot >> system is fundamentally different to an out of the box Raspberry Pi. > > IIRC, no two ARM systems have the same boot system. > > The RC1 announcement of Debian installer says this system is supported. > Debian provides images specifically for this system: > https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/ I do not doubt that. I just wanted to point out that at least the boot system is not so similar. You called your device "similar to and mostly compatible with the Raspberry Pi 4". At least for the installation process that is not true. > So it is at least supposed to work. Yes. > Why would Debian provide images that do not work? Would not make sense. > Note that there are in this directory no images for the plain RPi. I know. >> As far as I know, it is only possible to use the Debian installer if you >> modify the Raspberry to provide it an EFI system. > > Not here, the images that succeed to boot do not have EFI boot, even > though they look like it. My comment was specific to the Raspberry Pi. >> The common way to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi is using one of the >> images provided at raspi.debian.net. Once you got it installed, it is a >> Debian system like others using the standard repositories. > > IIRC, debian.net is third-party. Since Debian says it supports this > hardware, I would really like to avoid using third-party files. I would call it semi-official. Gunnar Wolf is a respected Debian developer and the debian.net domain is a property of the project. I would prefer an official-official installer though. Anyway, raspi.debian.net is intended solely for original Raspberry Pi devices. I doubt that the images would work with your device. -- http://www.cb-fraggle.de
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Christian Britz (12022-07-19): > If this device really can boot the Debian installer, at least it's boot > system is fundamentally different to an out of the box Raspberry Pi. IIRC, no two ARM systems have the same boot system. The RC1 announcement of Debian installer says this system is supported. Debian provides images specifically for this system: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/ So it is at least supposed to work. Why would Debian provide images that do not work? Note that there are in this directory no images for the plain RPi. > As far as I know, it is only possible to use the Debian installer if you > modify the Raspberry to provide it an EFI system. Not here, the images that succeed to boot do not have EFI boot, even though they look like it. It is actually a follow-up I was about to make to my mail: if I compare the official Debian images with the vendor-provided images that boot, I notice they both have something that looks like U-Boot, with exactly the same first octets, after the boot sector. But they differ in that the image that boots uses GPT, and the /boot that contains the kernel and extlinux.conf is a separate VFAT partition declared as EFI system. (But I insist, it does not hold anything EFI-compatible.) I should probably try to modify the Debian image to use GPT and have a separate boot partition like that. > The common way to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi is using one of the > images provided at raspi.debian.net. Once you got it installed, it is a > Debian system like others using the standard repositories. IIRC, debian.net is third-party. Since Debian says it supports this hardware, I would really like to avoid using third-party files. Thanks for your input. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Installing on Rock Pi 4
Hi Nicolas, Am 19.07.22 um 16:03 schrieb Nicolas George: > Hi. I am trying to install Debian on a Rock Pi 4 (v1.73). It is a > system-on-chip similar to and mostly compatible with the Raspberry Pi 4 > but with an on-board SSD. [...] > > I have tried the procedure described on: > https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/README.concatenateable_images > > zcat firmware.rock-pi-4-rk3399.img.gz partition.img.gz | /usr/bin/pv -s > $[16777216+136822784] > /dev/mmcblk0 > > I have checked that the SD card has a partition that can be mounted and > looks like a Debian installer. If this device really can boot the Debian installer, at least it's boot system is fundamentally different to an out of the box Raspberry Pi. As far as I know, it is only possible to use the Debian installer if you modify the Raspberry to provide it an EFI system. The common way to install Debian on a Raspberry Pi is using one of the images provided at raspi.debian.net. Once you got it installed, it is a Debian system like others using the standard repositories. -- http://www.cb-fraggle.de
Installing on Rock Pi 4
Hi. I am trying to install Debian on a Rock Pi 4 (v1.73). It is a system-on-chip similar to and mostly compatible with the Raspberry Pi 4 but with an on-board SSD. I have managed to boot and install one of the Debian images provided by the vendor, but they are obsolete or third-party or both. According to https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/04/msg00011.html this system is now supported by Debian natively, so I would like to install a real official Debian. I have tried the procedure described on: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/README.concatenateable_images zcat firmware.rock-pi-4-rk3399.img.gz partition.img.gz | /usr/bin/pv -s $[16777216+136822784] > /dev/mmcblk0 I have checked that the SD card has a partition that can be mounted and looks like a Debian installer. But when I plug it in the Rock Pi and boot, nothing, it boots on the internal SSD. I can boot on the SD card if I put a distribution from the vendor, so the issue is not the SSD having precedence. I read here somebody who tried the same thing: https://forum.radxa.com/t/driver-firmware-for-brcmfmac43456/9194 and managed to get a boot. But even trying ../../u-boot/rockpro64-rk3399.img.gz instead of firmware.rock-pi-4-rk3399.img.gz as written in this forum message changes nothing. Of course, to make things easier, it is impossible to get any diagnostics. The screen starts to get a signal only when the boot is already well in progress. Well, it is possible but I do not have a serial input at hand. Does anybody have something to suggest? Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
