Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, I > > guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff. > > I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??! I've got good eyes and don't have braille ;). But I'm a dyslexic. > My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all use > text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning still > holds good. Try Orca or so, you can't use it for all applications. Fortunately blind people can use Linux easier than other OS, because there's software with good config files, so they don't need the GUI :). On Linux audio users there are two blind users and they use Hydrogen by setting up this drum machine by it's config file. The GUI can't be used with Orca speech software. I tried Orca with closed eyes, horrible. You and I, we have good luck that we are able to see. I guess impaired people very often need help when using Linux installers. I'm pissed off that the world is made for averaged people only ;), even that I'm more or less averaged myself, so there aren't that much issues for me, excepted of empathy for people who are different. For Linux there is software for children, that shows, that it's possible to give access to the computer for illiterates or mentally retarded, but there is no such software for adults like e.g. http://tuxpaint.org/ I guess illiterates or mentally retarded adults would prefer to use Gimp instead of tuxpaint ;). > That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you can > use braille to read things on the Internet. A misunderstanding, perhaps regarding to my broken English. My eyes just need + 0.5 or + 0.75 glasses (= + 1.0 for the glasses from the supermarket), so I do have very good eyes. I'm not blind. My issues regarding to reading are caused by dyslexia. So, I'm using a monitor ;). Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1307786856.2378.101.camel@debian
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Saturday 11 June 2011 11:07:36 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > > On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, > > > I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff. > > > > I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??! > > I've got good eyes and don't have braille ;). But I'm a dyslexic. You misunderstood my question. "You" in English, in addition to being the second person plural and singular pronoun, is also the third person singular indefinate pronoun equivalent to the French "on". You (second person singular) said "I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff" and I asked how on earth these putative people, using braille to read things on the Internet, did so. I cannot see how anyone uses braille on the Internet, so I asked you (second person singular) how such a person would do so. > > My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all > > use text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning > > still holds good. > > Try Orca or so, you can't use it for all applications. Fortunately blind > people can use Linux easier than other OS, because there's software with > good config files, so they don't need the GUI :). Very sadly, this is not true. There is marvellous text to speech software available, very expensively, for Windows. I have looked into Linux and have not so far found anything to touch it. Mind you, testing is as you (second person singular) say difficult, because I am not good at managing without some sort of visual hint. > On Linux audio users there are two blind users and they use Hydrogen by > setting up this drum machine by it's config file. The GUI can't be used > with Orca speech software. [snip] > > That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you > > can use braille to read things on the Internet. > > A misunderstanding, perhaps regarding to my broken English. No, I fully understood you (second person singular). You (second person singular) said that you (second person singular) are dyslexic. But _you_ (second person singular) misunderstood _me_. It is difficult for me to know what I should avoid on an international list, and "one" as a pronoun effectively died in the mid twentieth century, so complicated periphrasis can be avoided only by using the pronoun "you" in the third person instead of using "one", which it has replaced in the language. And as you (second person singular) see here, attempts to clarify or rephrase are necessarily very clumsy. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110643.23612.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
2011/6/11 Lisi : > On Saturday 11 June 2011 11:07:36 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > [snip] >> > That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you >> > can use braille to read things on the Internet. >> >> A misunderstanding, perhaps regarding to my broken English. > > No, I fully understood you (second person singular). You (second person > singular) said that you (second person singular) are dyslexic. But _you_ > (second person singular) misunderstood _me_. It is difficult for me to know > what I should avoid on an international list, and "one" as a pronoun > effectively died in the mid twentieth century, so complicated periphrasis can > be avoided only by using the pronoun "you" in the third person instead of > using "one", which it has replaced in the language. > > And as you (second person singular) see here, attempts to clarify or rephrase > are necessarily very clumsy. > > Lisi > Maybe it is time for big revolution in English language of XXI century - the revival of pronoun "one". For one thing, I'm still encountering pronoun "one", and it is quite often, so I wouldn't be so hasty to this judgment of effective death (though it may be caused by wandering in strange dark corners of Internet). darkestkhan -- Feel free to CC me. jid: darkestk...@gmail.com May The Source be with You. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktiktgh0c46r6e4lz_vhrx2sfxn1...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 11:43 +0100, Lisi wrote: > On Saturday 11 June 2011 11:07:36 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > > > On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, > > > > I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff. > > > > > > I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??! > > > > I've got good eyes and don't have braille ;). But I'm a dyslexic. > > You misunderstood my question. "You" in English, in addition to being the > second person plural and singular pronoun, is also the third person singular > indefinate pronoun equivalent to the French "on". You (second person > singular) said "I guess using braille, people have to read much more > irrelevant stuff" and I asked how on earth these putative people, using > braille to read things on the Internet, did so. I cannot see how anyone uses > braille on the Internet, so I asked you (second person singular) how such a > person would do so. Ok, I guess I understand now. I don't know, but perhaps it's possible by using w3m. There are some sites made by blind people and those sides use a different style, compared to usual web pages. Please run $ w3m http://www.webbie.org.uk/webbie.htm This IMO is even more pleasant for people who are able to see ;). No folderol. Btw. I didn't read it. > > > My blind friends (even one who can read Braille at a phenomenal rate) all > > > use text to speech software. Though the point about difficulty scanning > > > still holds good. > > > > Try Orca or so, you can't use it for all applications. Fortunately blind > > people can use Linux easier than other OS, because there's software with > > good config files, so they don't need the GUI :). > > Very sadly, this is not true. There is marvellous text to speech software > available, very expensively, for Windows. I have looked into Linux and have > not so far found anything to touch it. Mind you, testing is as you (second > person singular) say difficult, because I am not good at managing without > some sort of visual hint. I like pictures very much! I guess even for blind people a relief will give more information than words sometimes can do. Regarding to accessibility I might be thinking of audio only. I guess on Windows and Mac it's harder for blind musicians, but I might be mistaken. FWIW even seeing and sane artists prefer engineers to handle the computer equipment. Herbie Hancock On Sesame Street http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5C4VF7xdcc Computers are bad designed for intuitive people. This 68000 CPU computer based synth is much better designed, regarding to the needs of musicians than Windows, Mac and Linux desktops are. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1307790835.2378.153.camel@debian
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On 11/06/11 20:07, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: >> On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote: >>> I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, I >>> guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff. >> >> I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??! > > >> That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you >> can >> use braille to read things on the Internet. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display Literally interpreting your question (I used to build machines for people with vision problems) Cheers -- Tuttle? His name's Buttle. There must be some mistake. Mistake? [Chuckles] We don't make mistakes. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4df38cd4.4070...@gmail.com
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On 11 Jun 2011, darkestkhan wrote: > > Maybe it is time for big revolution in English language of XXI century > - the revival of pronoun "one". > For one thing, I'm still encountering pronoun "one", and it is quite > often, so I wouldn't be so hasty to this judgment of effective death > (though it may be caused by wandering in strange dark corners of > Internet). > > darkestkhan I think the avoidance of 'one' is mainly an American usage. In British English it is used quite frequently, In fact, there is a long-standing joke about the tendency of members of the Royal Family, especially Prince Charles, to say 'one' instead of 'I'. -- Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk - sample my ebooks at http://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/acampbell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110611163353.ga2...@acampbell.org.uk
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 01:42 +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote: > On 11/06/11 20:07, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > >> On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >>> I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, I > >>> guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff. > >> > >> I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??! > > > > > > > > >> That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you > >> can > >> use braille to read things on the Internet. > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display The issue with braille seems to be, that the browser needs to be text based, some minutes ago a blind man at Linux audio users list mentioned, that he can't handle flash with his text based browsers, so I guess he's using brltty daemon. This flash thingy was only for playing a song. IMO all those java and flash stuff should be baned, if not really needed. I like to watch youtube, a blind person surely won't watch videos, so it's okay to use more than just HTML for this usage, but apart from that nobody really needs all that folderol. Does anybody watch intro videos on homepages? I always hope that the skip button does his job. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1307811201.2378.230.camel@debian
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Sb, 11 iun 11, 11:13:50, darkestkhan wrote: > > Maybe it is time for big revolution in English language of XXI century > - the revival of pronoun "one". > For one thing, I'm still encountering pronoun "one", and it is quite > often, so I wouldn't be so hasty to this judgment of effective death > (though it may be caused by wandering in strange dark corners of > Internet). +1 Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 17:33 +0100, Anthony Campbell wrote: > On 11 Jun 2011, darkestkhan wrote: > > > > Maybe it is time for big revolution in English language of XXI century > > - the revival of pronoun "one". > > For one thing, I'm still encountering pronoun "one", and it is quite > > often, so I wouldn't be so hasty to this judgment of effective death > > (though it may be caused by wandering in strange dark corners of > > Internet). > > > > darkestkhan > > I think the avoidance of 'one' is mainly an American usage. In British > English it is used quite frequently, In fact, there is a long-standing > joke about the tendency of members of the Royal Family, especially > Prince Charles, to say 'one' instead of 'I'. In my case, my English simply is broken. 'One' was for 'somebody' not for 'I'. Btw. I can't believe that it's possible to translate Hegel to English, since it's disputed what his message is. His individual German already needs translation into regular German. So somebody first has to be sure what Hegel wants to say, before he will be able to translate him. Very strange, resp. dubious, there are translations of Hegel: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hegel/ http://www.hegel.org/index.html Anyway, German is a very strange language and as a German native speaker with a large vocabulary and no gift for languages, my translations are sometimes similar to http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ "Don't Panic" (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1307812243.2378.243.camel@debian
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
Excerpts from Lisi's message of 2011-06-11 12:43:23 +0200: > On Saturday 11 June 2011 11:07:36 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > > > On Saturday 11 June 2011 10:05:04 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > > I've good luck, because I can skip a lot when watching at the monitor, > > > > I guess using braille, people have to read much more irrelevant stuff. > > > > > > I'm fascinated. How do you read braille from a monitor??! > > > > I've got good eyes and don't have braille ;). But I'm a dyslexic. > > You misunderstood my question. "You" in English, in addition to being the > second person plural and singular pronoun, is also the third person singular > indefinate pronoun equivalent to the French "on". You (second person > singular) said "I guess using braille, people have to read much more > irrelevant stuff" and I asked how on earth these putative people, using > braille to read things on the Internet, did so. I cannot see how anyone uses > braille on the Internet, so I asked you (second person singular) how such a > person would do so. Reading web pages with a braille display is a matter of using a text browser, there are a number of those available on Linux. Regards, Philipp -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1307813781-sup-3856@eris
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
2011/6/11 Anthony Campbell : > On 11 Jun 2011, darkestkhan wrote: >> >> Maybe it is time for big revolution in English language of XXI century >> - the revival of pronoun "one". >> For one thing, I'm still encountering pronoun "one", and it is quite >> often, so I wouldn't be so hasty to this judgment of effective death >> (though it may be caused by wandering in strange dark corners of >> Internet). >> >> darkestkhan > > I think the avoidance of 'one' is mainly an American usage. In British > English it is used quite frequently, In fact, there is a long-standing > joke about the tendency of members of the Royal Family, especially > Prince Charles, to say 'one' instead of 'I'. > > > -- > Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk Anthony You might mean USian, it seems that in Canada is usually used. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktikkkta+cybgfxtt52pg8f_f2so...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Saturday 11 June 2011 16:42:12 Scott Ferguson wrote: > > On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: [snipped] > >> That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how > >> you can use braille to read things on the Internet. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display > > > Literally interpreting your question > (I used to build machines for people with vision problems) Thanks, Scott. :-) I meant it literally. I had never come across or heard of a tactile computer display. I am intrigued that they exist, but the RNIB (Royal National Institute for Blind people) doesn't sell them and doesn't seem to know about them. I have googled, but am clearly asking the wrong question. Scratch that! I have tried again with Scott's search parameter and have finally found them mentioned on the RNIB site. But they are, as you say, prohibitively expensive. One is obviously not expected to want them, because I had even searched the RNIB shop with "braille" and not found displays, only inputs of various kinds. There must be some multi-millionaires who are blind!! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201106121146.40508.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription
On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 11:46 +0100, Lisi wrote: > There must be some multi-millionaires who are blind!! It's new technology, not really for the masses. In 100 years and perhaps earlier it could be less expensive or completely removed from the market, hence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlear_implant in Germany already is wide spread for the masses and similar technology for the eyes already is existing in an experimental state. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1307884254.2416.94.camel@debian
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription [OT]
On 12/06/11 20:46, Lisi wrote: > On Saturday 11 June 2011 16:42:12 Scott Ferguson wrote: >>> On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > [snipped] That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you can use braille to read things on the Internet. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display >> >> >> Literally interpreting your question >> (I used to build machines for people with vision problems) > > Thanks, Scott. :-) > > I meant it literally. I had never come across or heard of a tactile computer > display. The nicest one I ever saw was an image display - a beautifully crafted Huon timber box with a tight grid of holes in the top. Each hole has a stainless steel rod sitting in it - each rod can be raised and lowered by a small drive - at rest they are flush with the top of the box, but can be raised about 1cm. A screen display is scanned and converted to a grayscale which is then analysed. The screen is "gridded" with blocks of pixels represented by individual rods - the darker the colour of the pixel block - the higher the rod is raised. The result is a 3D representation of the screen image. Very cool and beautifully made. When unpowered the rods sit flush with the surface of the box, making it easy to clean. The unit was completely designed by a blind person - including the software! Build by a sighted person using parts from an old SCSCI scanner and drives from a bunch of old, old, floppy disk drives (the really floppy sort). > > I am intrigued that they exist, but the RNIB (Royal National Institute for > Blind people) doesn't sell them and doesn't seem to know about them. > > I have googled, but am clearly asking the wrong question. > > Scratch that! I have tried again with Scott's search parameter and have > finally found them mentioned on the RNIB site. But they are, as you say, > prohibitively expensive. One is obviously not expected to want them, because > I had even searched the RNIB shop with "braille" and not found displays, only > inputs of various kinds. > > There must be some multi-millionaires who are blind!! > Lisi > > Dunno about blind multi-millionaires - but selling JAWS must have made more than a few millionaires. Cheers -- It's just a ride and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. ~ Bill Hicks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4df4ac72.7040...@gmail.com
Re: Linux for humans that differ to averaged people was - Re: Subscription [OT]
On 12/06/11 20:46, Lisi wrote: > On Saturday 11 June 2011 16:42:12 Scott Ferguson wrote: >>> On Sat, 2011-06-11 at 10:27 +0100, Lisi wrote: > [snipped] That is not sarcasm incidentally. I would genuinely like to know how you can use braille to read things on the Internet. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display >> >> >> Literally interpreting your question >> (I used to build machines for people with vision problems) > > Thanks, Scott. :-) > > I meant it literally. I had never come across or heard of a tactile computer > display. The nicest one I ever saw was an image display - a beautifully crafted Huon timber box with a tight grid of holes in the top. Each hole has a stainless steel rod sitting in it - each rod can be raised and lowered by a small drive - at rest they are flush with the top of the box, but can be raised about 1cm. A screen display is scanned and converted to a grayscale which is then analysed. The screen is "gridded" with blocks of pixels represented by individual rods - the darker the colour of the pixel block - the higher the rod is raised. The result is a 3D representation of the screen image. Very cool and beautifully made. When unpowered the rods sit flush with the surface of the box, making it easy to clean. The unit was completely designed by a blind person - including the software! Build by a sighted person using parts from an old SCSCI scanner and drives from a bunch of old, old, floppy disk drives (the really floppy sort). > > I am intrigued that they exist, but the RNIB (Royal National Institute for > Blind people) doesn't sell them and doesn't seem to know about them. > > I have googled, but am clearly asking the wrong question. > > Scratch that! I have tried again with Scott's search parameter and have > finally found them mentioned on the RNIB site. But they are, as you say, > prohibitively expensive. One is obviously not expected to want them, because > I had even searched the RNIB shop with "braille" and not found displays, only > inputs of various kinds. > > There must be some multi-millionaires who are blind!! > Lisi > > Dunno about blind multi-millionaires - but selling JAWS must have made more than a few millionaires. Cheers -- It's just a ride and we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. ~ Bill Hicks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4df4acb5.7040...@gmail.com
