Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[David Christensen]

On 04/23/18 06:02, Greg Wooledge wrote:

For more details on iproute2 superseding net-tools, see
.


Thanks for the link.  So, ifconfig was superseded by iproute2 and is 
unrelated to systemd.



David

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 11:47:48AM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> Proving, disproving, and/or improving the hypothesis would require
> researching ifconfig(8), systemd(1), and the reasons why the former was
> dropped from the default installation when the latter was introduced into
> Debian (Jesse?).

Your timeline is wrong.  Your "hypothesis" is also wrong.

The net-tools package was installed by default in jessie and earlier.
It only became non-default in stretch.

The iproute2 package, which supersedes net-tools, has been installed by
default since squeeze.

The systemd package was first available as a "technology preview" in
wheezy, and became the default init system in jessie.

systemd has its own way of managing network interfaces (systemd-networkd),
which may be used as an alternative to /etc/network/interfaces and/or
NetworkManager.  However, this is not done by default in Debian.  Debian
still uses /etc/network/interfaces by default, plus NetworkManager
if you install certain Desktop Environments.  If you want to use
systemd-networkd, you have to configure it yourself.

systemd-networkd has absolutely nothing to do with iproute2 superseding
net-tools.

For more details on iproute2 superseding net-tools, see
.

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[David Christensen]

On 04/22/18 11:02, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 10:55:48AM -0700, David Christensen wrote:

On 04/21/18 22:26, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

... systemd ...
spreading FUD about it
just fires backwards, and shouldn't be the style here...


Please cite the FUD I am spreading about systemd.


Always glad to oblige.

In Message-ID: <36b4e7a4-5b5f-e605-efe4-e59d8d960...@holgerdanske.com>
| On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 03:13:09PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
| > AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.


That is not FUD; it is a hypothesis.  That is why I prefaced it with 
"AFAIK".  Proving, disproving, and/or improving the hypothesis would 
require researching ifconfig(8), systemd(1), and the reasons why the 
former was dropped from the default installation when the latter was 
introduced into Debian (Jesse?).



David

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Eike Lantzsch]

On Sunday, April 22, 2018 10:55:48 AM -04 David Christensen wrote:
> On 04/21/18 22:26, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > ... systemd ...
> > spreading FUD about it
> > just fires backwards, and shouldn't be the style here...
> 
> Please cite the FUD I am spreading about systemd.
> 
> 
> David

man ip:
*"ip* was written by Alexey N. Kuznetsov and added in Linux 2.2."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd:
"Lennart Poettering and Kay Sievers started the project to develop systemd in 
2010."
To call the "AFAIK" "FUD" seems a bit harsh but mentioning ip as part of 
systemd *is* plain 
wrong.I made the mistake to attribute failings of my system installation to 
systemd only to 
find out later that the problem was entirely unrelated to systemd and the cause 
sometimes 
to be solely sought between chair and keyboard.
Have a nice day y'allEike

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Brian]

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 at 20:01:05 -0400, Kenneth Parker wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Dan Ritter  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 03:13:09PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> > > On 04/21/18 14:24, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > >
> > > > One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being
> > asked to
> > > > do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
> > > > does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been
> > able to
> > > > use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!
> > >
> > > AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.
> >
> > systemd may be to blame for a myriad of woes, but this is not
> > one of them.
> >
> 
> Speaking of SystemD, do you recommend a good book on it?  I couldn't find
> one at my local Barnes & Noble.

I couldn't find systemD in the package archives. Perhaps Barnes & Noble
are having the same problem. Renaming is bad practice and bad manners.

> Thank you and best regards,
> 
> Kenneth Parker
> --  Conversant, but not Fluent in SystemD.

You are conversant with systemD? Surely not?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 10:55:48AM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> On 04/21/18 22:26, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >... systemd ...
> >spreading FUD about it
> >just fires backwards, and shouldn't be the style here...
> 
> Please cite the FUD I am spreading about systemd.

Always glad to oblige.

In Message-ID: <36b4e7a4-5b5f-e605-efe4-e59d8d960...@holgerdanske.com>
| On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 03:13:09PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
| > On 04/21/18 14:24, Kenneth Parker wrote:
| 
| [...]
| 
| > >One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked to
| > >do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
| > >does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command [...]
| 
| > AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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=+BxG
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Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[David Christensen]

On 04/21/18 22:26, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

... systemd ...
spreading FUD about it
just fires backwards, and shouldn't be the style here...


Please cite the FUD I am spreading about systemd.


David

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 03:13:09PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:

[...]

> AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.

No. It's just not installed by default. It is part of package
net-tools, which you may install separately...

> If enough people install net-tools and popularity-contest,
> ifconfig(8) will make it to CD 1.

... as you yourself explain later.

> Alternatively, try Devuan:
> 
> https://devuan.org/

Devuan is nice: does it install net-tools by default?

As Dan says: there are valid reasons to not like systemd (and
there are valid reasons to like it), but spreading FUD about it
just fires backwards, and shouldn't be the style here...

Cheers
- -- t
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=6btr
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Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Kenneth Parker]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Dan Ritter  wrote:

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 03:13:09PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
>


> > On 04/21/18 14:24, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> >
> > > One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being
> asked to
> > > do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
> > > does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been
> able to
> > > use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!
> >
> > AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.
>
> systemd may be to blame for a myriad of woes, but this is not
> one of them.
>

Speaking of SystemD, do you recommend a good book on it?  I couldn't find
one at my local Barnes & Noble.

Thank you and best regards,

Kenneth Parker
--  Conversant, but not Fluent in SystemD.

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Kenneth Parker]

Hello David,

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:13 PM, David Christensen <
dpchr...@holgerdanske.com> wrote:

> On 04/21/18 14:24, Kenneth Parker wrote:
>
>> ... wireless.kernel.org to download Firmware for this B43 Device.
>>
>
> My decommissioned Dell Inspiron E1505 required the same firmware.  I
> bought a replacement WiFi card in the hopes it would be better supported by
> GNU/Linux and *BSD, but can't remember if that idea worked...
>
> This is a Laptop.

>
> But how do I download something, when I have no Internet, due to this
>> "Non-Free Chipset"?
>>
>
> You need another device that can access the Internet, download the file,
> and put it onto a USB flash drive in the 'firmware' directory:
>

I went partway through that, even using Broadcom's Site and bringing a
DRIVER in.  But I'm in a Learning Curve, regarding Firmware Updates.

>
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual
>
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en
>
> Thanks! I will read those.

>
> In other words, a long-term Linux Geek, all the way back to Debian 2.1
>> (Command Line Only, back in 2000) is stymied with something that, back
>> then
>> could easily have been fixed, by copying files from a different System,
>> via
>> Floppy Disks!   Oh well...
>>
>
> Vote with your dollars -- buy FOSS-friendly hardware.
>
> This isn't my Computer.  But Point well taken!

>
> One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked to
>> do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
>> does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to
>> use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!
>>
>
> AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.
>

It's still, temporarily available in a "deprecated package"  Net-Tools.
Since it's now marked "Optional", it's not on CD-1.  Here at home, where
I'm "Mirroring" the MacBook on Virtualbox, I will study the new "ip"
Command, and see if it can show me the  WiFi Adapter, even though it's down.

>
>
> If enough people install net-tools and popularity-contest, ifconfig(8)
> will make it to CD 1.
>

See, that was the problem:  When I needed them most, Command Line Options,
that have been around FOREVER, weren't there.  I looked like a Doofus!

Incidentally, I was unable to find a book titled "SystemD for Dummies".  I
absolutely feel like a Dummy, around *THAT*!


>
> Alternatively, try Devuan:
>
> https://devuan.org/


Thanks!  I'll install it under Virtualbox.

Alternatively, I could have used Debian 8, which is, likely still being
supported.

>
> David
>
> Kenneth Parker
--  Still feeling like a Dinosaur!

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Dan Ritter]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 03:13:09PM -0700, David Christensen wrote:
> On 04/21/18 14:24, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> 
> > One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked to
> > do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
> > does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to
> > use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!
> 
> AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.

systemd may be to blame for a myriad of woes, but this is not
one of them.

iproute2 showed up in wheezy-backports and was standard in
jessie. It has a more consistent syntax and offers the power of
several tools wrapped up in one executable... plus it's closer
to the syntax of several other UNIXes.

And, as you pointed out, ifconfig and route and friends are
still installable.

-dsr-

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Dan Ritter]

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 06:07:28PM -0400, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> Thanks!  Between you and Abdullah, I believe I have, what I need, next
> window with my Friend.
> 
> Consider this "Provisionally Solved".

And now for the other thing:
 
> > > One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked
> > to do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
> > does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to
> > use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!

Here's the basics of using the ip command:

ip link
shows and can manipulate the link-layer devices, including
wifi and ethernet NICs

ip addr
shows and can manipulate IP addressing

ip route
shows and can manipulate IP routing

ip neigh
shows and can manipulate your ARP table (or IPv6 equivalent)

Each of these can be abbreviated: "ip l", "ip a"... and each of
them has a basic help available via "ip l help" and similar.

ip l
ip a add 192.168.0.2/24 dev wlan0
ip r add default via 192.168.0.1

for example.

-dsr-

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[David Christensen]

On 04/21/18 14:24, Kenneth Parker wrote:

... wireless.kernel.org to download Firmware for this B43 Device.


My decommissioned Dell Inspiron E1505 required the same firmware.  I 
bought a replacement WiFi card in the hopes it would be better supported 
by GNU/Linux and *BSD, but can't remember if that idea worked...




But how do I download something, when I have no Internet, due to this
"Non-Free Chipset"?


You need another device that can access the Internet, download the file, 
and put it onto a USB flash drive in the 'firmware' directory:


https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en



In other words, a long-term Linux Geek, all the way back to Debian 2.1
(Command Line Only, back in 2000) is stymied with something that, back then
could easily have been fixed, by copying files from a different System, via
Floppy Disks!   Oh well...


Vote with your dollars -- buy FOSS-friendly hardware.



One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked to
do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to
use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!


AFAIK ifconfig was superseded by some component of systemd.


If enough people install net-tools and popularity-contest, ifconfig(8) 
will make it to CD 1.



Alternatively, try Devuan:

https://devuan.org/


David

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Kenneth Parker]

Thanks!  Between you and Abdullah, I believe I have, what I need, next
window with my Friend.

Consider this "Provisionally Solved".

Best Regards,

Kenneth Parker

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Rick Thomas  wrote:

> Hi Kenneth,
>
> Have a look at
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/
> cd-including-firmware/
> You may find something there that will fit your situation…
>
> Enjoy!
> Rick
>
> On Apr 21, 2018, at 2:24 PM, Kenneth Parker  wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am helping a Friend install Debian 9.4 to an old, Intel Macbook, where
> the only Internet access is through a Broadcom BCM4322 Wifi Chip.  I got as
> far as installing the Debian 9.4 CD-1, but couldn't get the Network up.
> >
> > It seems that Debian doesn't wish to support "Non-Free" hardware, and
> wants me to visit wireless.kernel.org to download Firmware for this B43
> Device.
> >
> > But how do I download something, when I have no Internet, due to this
> "Non-Free Chipset"?
> >
> > In other words, a long-term Linux Geek, all the way back to Debian 2.1
> (Command Line Only, back in 2000) is stymied with something that, back then
> could easily have been fixed, by copying files from a different System, via
> Floppy Disks!   Oh well...
> >
> > 
> >
> > One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked
> to do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
> does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to
> use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!
> >
> > 
> >
> > Has anybody else been able to get the Non-Free WiFi Drivers and Firmware
> to work, using "Sneaker Net" (manually carrying stuff between two
> computers)?
> >
> > 
> >
> > Thank You and Best Regards,
> >
> > Kenneth Parker
> > ---  Linux Dinosaur, since Yggdrasil Plug and Play Linux
>
>

Re: Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Rick Thomas]

Hi Kenneth,

Have a look at
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
You may find something there that will fit your situation…

Enjoy!
Rick

On Apr 21, 2018, at 2:24 PM, Kenneth Parker  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I am helping a Friend install Debian 9.4 to an old, Intel Macbook, where the 
> only Internet access is through a Broadcom BCM4322 Wifi Chip.  I got as far 
> as installing the Debian 9.4 CD-1, but couldn't get the Network up.
> 
> It seems that Debian doesn't wish to support "Non-Free" hardware, and wants 
> me to visit wireless.kernel.org to download Firmware for this B43 Device.
> 
> But how do I download something, when I have no Internet, due to this 
> "Non-Free Chipset"?
> 
> In other words, a long-term Linux Geek, all the way back to Debian 2.1 
> (Command Line Only, back in 2000) is stymied with something that, back then 
> could easily have been fixed, by copying files from a different System, via 
> Floppy Disks!   Oh well...
> 
> 
> 
> One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked to do 
> Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1 does  
> *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to use, to 
> troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!
> 
> 
> 
> Has anybody else been able to get the Non-Free WiFi Drivers and Firmware to 
> work, using "Sneaker Net" (manually carrying stuff between two computers)?  
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You and Best Regards,
> 
> Kenneth Parker
> ---  Linux Dinosaur, since Yggdrasil Plug and Play Linux

Network-related Chicken and Egg Issue, attempting Install of Debian 9.4

[Kenneth Parker]

Hello,

I am helping a Friend install Debian 9.4 to an old, Intel Macbook, where
the only Internet access is through a Broadcom BCM4322 Wifi Chip.  I got as
far as installing the Debian 9.4 CD-1, but couldn't get the Network up.

It seems that Debian doesn't wish to support "Non-Free" hardware, and wants
me to visit wireless.kernel.org to download Firmware for this B43 Device.

But how do I download something, when I have no Internet, due to this
"Non-Free Chipset"?

In other words, a long-term Linux Geek, all the way back to Debian 2.1
(Command Line Only, back in 2000) is stymied with something that, back then
could easily have been fixed, by copying files from a different System, via
Floppy Disks!   Oh well...



One more thing:  Because of some changes, from 8 to 9, I am being asked to
do Network Administration, with both Hands behind my Back:  Debian CD1
does  *NOT*  install the ifconfig command, which I might have been able to
use, to troubleshoot, even *FINDING* the WiFi Adapter.  Ouch!



Has anybody else been able to get the Non-Free WiFi Drivers and Firmware to
work, using "Sneaker Net" (manually carrying stuff between two computers)?



Thank You and Best Regards,

Kenneth Parker
---  Linux Dinosaur, since Yggdrasil Plug and Play Linux