Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, martin f krafft madd...@debian.org wrote: Google has more ways to identify you than cookies or a login token, Well, we're talking now about the filtering of search results for dubious motives. Someone posted a link to a web page that looked liked it was written and designed with the average six-year-old in mind, that told us what we already knew, that if you turn on, or don't turn off, saving your search history in google and search while your logged in to their services, they tailor your results (and inform you of the fact with a little icon or something while they're at it). The rest of what has been claimed (different results when using different browsers and/or ip addresses within the same country) although perfectly amenable to scientific inquiry, remains unsubstantiated. I do know as a google.fr user that google tailors results by *language*, but *a priori* I don't see how that can be construed as nefarious in any way, nor how you can get around it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6rg0o.2b2.cu...@einstein.electron.org
No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
also sprach Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com [2014-11-19 10:48 +0200]: Sadly, whoever told you that was misinformed - and misinformed you. Google results may vary according to the constantly updating search index - and search terms - but the search history, either stored in your browser history, or your Google profile (if you login to a Google account) does *not* affect results. Can you please back this up with evidence? I would love to be proven misinformed. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems before he died, rabbi zusya said: in the world to come they will not ask me, 'why were you not moses?' they will ask me, 'why were you not zusya?' digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, martin f krafft madd...@debian.org wrote: Can you please back this up with evidence? I would love to be proven misinformed. I went over to google.fr, put systemd for administrators pdf in the search slit (or whatever it's called) and got The systemd - 0pointer.net 0pointer.de/public/systemd-ebook-psankar.pdf as the first hit. Do you get something else? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6p5d1.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 02:05:38PM CET, Curt cu...@free.fr said: On 2014-11-19, martin f krafft madd...@debian.org wrote: Can you please back this up with evidence? I would love to be proven misinformed. I went over to google.fr, put systemd for administrators pdf in the search slit (or whatever it's called) and got The systemd - 0pointer.net 0pointer.de/public/systemd-ebook-psankar.pdf as the first hit. Do you get something else? Joerg got http://www.bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/os/linux/systemd/systemd%20for%20Administrators.pdf Not same document. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141119132622.gl19...@rail.eu.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org wrote: Joerg got http://www.bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/os/linux/systemd/systemd%20for%20Administrators.pdf Not same document. Who's Joerg? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6p7tu.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 14:26:22 +0100 Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org wrote: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 02:05:38PM CET, Curt cu...@free.fr said: Can you please back this up with evidence? I would love to be proven misinformed. I went over to google.fr, put systemd for administrators pdf in the search slit (or whatever it's called) and got The systemd - 0pointer.net 0pointer.de/public/systemd-ebook-psankar.pdf as the first hit. Do you get something else? Joerg got http://www.bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/os/linux/systemd/systemd%20for%20Administrators.pdf Not same document. I also get 0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-pdf.html Cheers, Ron. -- Image Old houses were scaffolding once, and workmen whistling. -- T.E. Hulme -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141119110443.3fa8c...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 02:48:46PM CET, Curt cu...@free.fr said: On 2014-11-19, Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org wrote: Joerg got http://www.bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/os/linux/systemd/systemd%20for%20Administrators.pdf Not same document. Who's Joerg? Joerg Desh, who answered in message m4ep45$eju$1...@ger.gmane.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141119143001.gm19...@rail.eu.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org wrote: Joerg got http://www.bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/os/linux/systemd/systemd%20for%20Administrators.pdf Not same document. This is confusing. The claim is your Google search history affects your Google search results. I have no Google search history (easy enough, no hoops, no hands). So it must be Joerg (whoever she is) who's in the NSA bubble? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6papd.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 03:37:33PM CET, Curt cu...@free.fr said: On 2014-11-19, Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org wrote: Joerg got http://www.bandwidthco.com/whitepapers/os/linux/systemd/systemd%20for%20Administrators.pdf Not same document. This is confusing. The claim is your Google search history affects your Google search results. I have no Google search history (easy enough, no hoops, no hands). So it must be Joerg (whoever she is) who's in the NSA bubble? I do not know, I tested again, this time the document you gave was second with a title Part 1. I also see it is less complete than the latter. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141119150952.gp19...@rail.eu.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 14:37:33 + (UTC) Curt cu...@free.fr wrote: The claim is your Google search history affects your Google search results. Seems Google tailors your results depending on what you look at; frinstance if they see that you often go to the Wikipedia article on the query subject, they will put wikipedia higher in your results. Cheers, Ron. -- We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141119121425.5ceaa...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org wrote: The claim is your Google search history affects your Google search results. Seems Google tailors your results depending on what you look at; frinstance if they see that you often go to the Wikipedia article on the query subject, they will put wikipedia higher in your results. The link posted by Darac (http://dontbubble.us/) claims that Google results are tailored *based on your search history*. I don't have a search history. I had no cookies, either, when I made the search. Nor was I logged in to their services. So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6pevl.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, 19 Nov 2014 15:49:09 + (UTC) Curt cu...@free.fr wrote: The link posted by Darac (http://dontbubble.us/) claims that Google results are tailored *based on your search history*. I don't have a search history. I had no cookies, either, when I made the search. Nor was I logged in to their services. So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. You may not have but we do; so we don’t get the plain vanilla results you do. Or you don't get the same results as we do. Cheers, Ron. -- There are three kinds of men: Those that learn by reading, The few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141119132852.2b043...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
Le Mer 19 novembre 2014 16:49, Curt a écrit : So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. For example, it can guess from your IP from where you come, and show results more... pertinent... considering your location. A easy test: search for test. This word exists in several languages, so using it on google.com from various IPs can be interesting, if you can. You can also try to use any other variants of google (.fr, .us, etc) and check if you are having the same results. If results differ from a test to another, then, yes, google is bubbling you. Now, is bubbling good or not, is a different question and I do not intend to try to answer it :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/b568cd671b1a7041829b03909845a6bd.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 03:49:09PM +, Curt wrote: On 2014-11-19, Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org wrote: The claim is your Google search history affects your Google search results. Seems Google tailors your results depending on what you look at; frinstance if they see that you often go to the Wikipedia article on the query subject, they will put wikipedia higher in your results. The link posted by Darac (http://dontbubble.us/) claims that Google results are tailored *based on your search history*. I don't have a search history. I had no cookies, either, when I made the search. Nor was I logged in to their services. So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. Do you regularly search from the same IP address? Do you regularly search from the same browser? Do you regularly search from the same country? Because Google don't publish their search algorithm, it's impossible to tell how they tailor their results for anonymous users. It's not beyond the realms of possibility (nor beyond Google's resources) to tailor results based on a number of factors. Firefox users prefer github, Internet Explorer users are generally conservative, Chinese users should not be shown 'unacceptable' ideas are all customisations that Google *COULD* implement, all with the goal of getting the best click-through statistics. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6pevl.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, Morel Bérenger berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le Mer 19 novembre 2014 16:49, Curt a écrit : So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. For example, it can guess from your IP from where you come, and show results more... pertinent... considering your location. It could. A easy test: search for test. This word exists in several languages, so using it on google.com from various IPs can be interesting, if you can. I'll have to call my brother in California. Or use a proxy. You can also try to use any other variants of google (.fr, .us, etc) and check if you are having the same results. Well, from experience I know that they can differ in this case. If results differ from a test to another, then, yes, google is bubbling you. So you go to google.fr, do a search, it gives you primarily French-language results, and you're being bubbled? And ducky ducky a gogo gives you results primarily in ... what? What is the neutral, non-bubbling lingo on this planet? Just asking. Now, is bubbling good or not, is a different question and I do not intend to try to answer it :) It may be good for a francophone, si tu ne causes pas la langue de M Shakespeare! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6pkm2.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
On 2014-11-19, Darac Marjal mailingl...@darac.org.uk wrote: Do you regularly search from the same IP address? Do you regularly search from the same browser? Do you regularly search from the same country? I see what you're driving at. But as you can easily change browsers and compare search results, I don't think we need Google to reveal their algorithm to get to the truth of the browser matter (if there is any truth to get at at all). As for country-specific results (language-oriented, certainly) how does ducky ducky a gogo handle the Tower of Babel problem? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnm6pme9.2am.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: No Google bubble?
On 19/11/14 22:09, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com [2014-11-19 10:48 +0200]: Sadly, whoever told you that was misinformed - and misinformed you. Google results may vary according to the constantly updating search index - and search terms - but the search history, either stored in your browser history, or your Google profile (if you login to a Google account) does *not* affect results. Can you please back this up with evidence? I would love to be proven misinformed. With the greatest respect Martin - have you tried testing it yourself? Fire up three boxes running Iceweasel, with one using a Google profile with a search history and logged into Google, a second not logged into Google but with a search history, and a third also not logged into a Google account but with no search history - then paste the same search term into the search box. Do let me know if you can't find the pdf under discussion at the top of the search results. systemd for administrators pdf http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-pdf.html If you refer to my original reply to Paul you'll note I quoted the Google UK (and I'm not in the UK) blog notice where it states that *modified* search results are clearly marked, and can be replaced with *unmodified* search results by clicking on a button[*1] - please try that before people prove a negative (assuming that's even possible). Then, to be fair to the originally lambasted Brian - try *copying and pasting* a search term. And do note my original comment about the nature of Google's search index - it's always changing (it's not a static index)[*2]. Even if you do an identical search query at the same moment as I - we will get different results (Google doesn't have a single international search engine). Never-the-less, Brian's query *currently* will put that same page at the top of the results (for the time being). [*1] https://www.google.com/history/optout?hl=en [*2] Now includes the OP's post Here's the first URLs from the results (I've removed the dozen or so that are above the search results):- https://www.google.com/search?q=systemd+for+administrators+pdfamp;client=iceweasel-aamp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficialamp;channel=sbamp;source=lntamp;tbs=li:1amp;sa=Xamp;ei=O-9sVIXDG8OxmwW68ILADgamp;ved=0CBYQpwU *http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-pdf.html* http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XL78OblSZFgJ:0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-pdf.html+amp;cd=1amp;hl=enamp;ct=clnkamp;client=iceweasel-a https://www.google.com/search?client=iceweasel-aamp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficialamp;channel=sbamp;q=related:0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-pdf.html+systemd+for+administrators+pdfamp;tbo=1amp;sa=Xamp;ei=O-9sVIXDG8OxmwW68ILADgamp;ved=0CCMQHzAA http://0pointer.de/public/systemd-ebook-psankar.pdf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jI2PwP6QAooJ:0pointer.de/public/systemd-ebook-psankar.pdf+amp;cd=2amp;hl=enamp;ct=clnkamp;client=iceweasel-a https://www.google.com/search?client=iceweasel-aamp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficialamp;channel=sbamp;q=related:0pointer.de/public/systemd-ebook-psankar.pdf+systemd+for+administrators+pdfamp;tbo=1amp;sa=Xamp;ei=O-9sVIXDG8OxmwW68ILADgamp;ved=0CCkQHzAB http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/resources.html Apropos of which, for those concerned about Google not providing search results as a community service, please try the following Iceweasel extensions:- ;Moxie's Google Sharing ;Wladimir Palant's Ad Block Plus ;Ove's Self-Destructing Cookies ;Giorio Maone's No Script Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546cf397.8050...@gmail.com
Re: No Google bubble?
On 19/11/14 17:56, Curt wrote: As for country-specific results (language-oriented, certainly) how does ducky ducky a gogo handle the Tower of Babel problem? I don't know if they apply any geoip checks to inbound traffic, but they certainly support the lang:ISO_language_code search term (compare the results of john wayne lang:en with john wayne lang:fr), and there are some fairly obvious heuristics that I'd expect any competent search engine implementer to apply like this query is written entirely in the Armenian alphabet, so we should probably prefer Armenian-language results even if the user has not specified 'lang:hy'. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546cf55f.5090...@zen.co.uk
Re: No Google bubble?
On 20/11/14 04:04, Darac Marjal wrote: On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 03:49:09PM +, Curt wrote: On 2014-11-19, Renaud OLGIATI ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org wrote: The claim is your Google search history affects your Google search results. Seems Google tailors your results depending on what you look at; frinstance if they see that you often go to the Wikipedia article on the query subject, they will put wikipedia higher in your results. The link posted by Darac (http://dontbubble.us/) claims that Google results are tailored *based on your search history*. I don't have a search history. I had no cookies, either, when I made the search. Nor was I logged in to their services. So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. Do you regularly search from the same IP address? Do you regularly search from the same browser? Do you regularly search from the same country? Because Google don't publish their search algorithm, it's impossible to tell how they tailor their results for anonymous users. It's not beyond the realms of possibility (nor beyond Google's resources) to tailor results based on a number of factors. Firefox users prefer github, Internet Explorer users are generally conservative, Chinese users should not be shown 'unacceptable' ideas are all customisations that Google *COULD* implement, all with the goal of getting the best click-through statistics. It's possible - but it's not the case. Click-through-statistics isn't the primary purpose, relevant results is. It's possible that people can live on orange juice alone - but nor is it the case. And any demand to prove it does nothing to change a belief into a fact. Google *can* tailor search results, the user can easily avoid tailored search results. When Google tailors search results the fact they have been tailored is clearly evident and a button is displayed, which upon clicking, will give you un-tailored search results. Impel != Compel As previously stated (for those that can't or won't read) - there are a number of factors that affect search results, the main ones being:- ;where you are when you make the query (the search engines are distributed and not synched in real-time + they differ slightly according to local language and laws) ;the index is based, mainly[*1] on backlinks harvested by Googlebot i.e. it's dynamic (e.g. these posts modify the results) [*1] Google employs thousands - while not published the search results algorithm is not like the formula for Coke-a-Cola. At what point does this thread become petty and stupid? While it may satisfy the desires of those with a conspiracy axe to grind, or some sort of resentment based on the false idea that Brian made them look silly for not performing a simple search for an answer to their question - none of this is remotely relevant to the OP's question. -- The pure and simple truth is that the truth is rarely pure and never simple -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546cfa09.3000...@gmail.com
Re: No Google bubble?
also sprach Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com [2014-11-19 21:46 +0200]: With the greatest respect Martin - have you tried testing it yourself? No, I have not used Google for over 5 years by choice because I do not like it when profit-driven entities make decisions over what I should see. With all due respect: have you not heard of the search bubble or are you denying it? Ever since switching to duckduckgo.com, I've found the better answers. At first it's hard because DDG shows you the stuff you aren't used to, but when I research, this is the stuff I want to see. I don't want to be reconfirmed in the bias and prejudices I already have. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems perhaps debian is concerned more about technical excellence rather than ease of use by breaking software. in the former we may excel. in the latter we have to concede the field to microsoft. guess where i want to go today? -- manoj srivastava digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
also sprach Curt cu...@free.fr [2014-11-19 17:49 +0200]: I don't have a search history. I had no cookies, either, when I made the search. Nor was I logged in to their services. So I don't see how Google could have tailored my results. Google has more ways to identify you than cookies or a login token, -- .''`. martin f. krafft madduck@d.o @martinkrafft : :' : proud Debian developer `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems everyone has a little secret he keeps, i like the fires when the city sleeps. -- mc 900 ft jesus digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current)
Re: No Google bubble?
On 20/11/14 08:14, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com [2014-11-19 21:46 +0200]: With the greatest respect Martin - have you tried testing it yourself? No, I have not used Google for over 5 years by choice because I do not like it when profit-driven entities make decisions over what I should see. With all due respect: have you not heard of the search bubble or are you denying it? The claimed respect is not immediately evident in the slanted questions. Ever since switching to duckduckgo.com, I've found the better answers. At first it's hard because DDG shows you the stuff you aren't used to, but when I research, this is the stuff I want to see. I don't want to be reconfirmed in the bias and prejudices I already have. I'm happy you've found a search engine that satisfies your search requirements. I'd be even happier if you mustered the tolerance that I have for other people's choices of search engines. [curious] What does any of this have to do with Debian-user?? Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546d123f.2060...@gmail.com
Re: No Google bubble? (was: systemd for administrators, printable version.)
Le Mer 19 novembre 2014 18:26, Curt a écrit : Now, is bubbling good or not, is a different question and I do not intend to try to answer it :) It may be good for a francophone, si tu ne causes pas la langue de M Shakespeare! Yes, it may. But sometimes it gets annoying, depending on one's uses, for example when you're trying to find some stuff about programming, or asking things in English. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/d6697f53b9dd977542f94d597183ac95.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
