Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2007-04-15 06:57:16, schrieb Freddy Freeloader:
> Michael Pobega wrote:
> >>I have one recurring problem with aptitude. It keeps trying to remove
> >>gnome and everything related to it and a bunch of other stuff.
^^
> >>Fortunately it takes up enough real estate on the screen that it is
> >>hard to miss and I just reply N and use apt for that task.
> 
> run "aptitude keep-all"  That will keep aptitude from trying to get rid 
> of it sees as your "unused" packages, plus all their dependencies. 
^^
ROTFL!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Celejar]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:57:19 -0400
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > But we did find this for 'build-dep':
> > 
> > http://p12n.org/hacks/aptitude-build-dep
> > 
> 
> When people say aptitude, they usually refer to the one supplied by Debian.
> The above is not included in debian's aptitude as far as I know.
> 
> raju

You're right, of course. I'm just pointing out that there's apparently
a hack available for aptitude.

Celejar


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Anthony Campbell]

On 14 Apr 2007, Michael Pobega wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 05:50:26PM -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:36:40PM -0700, Adam Frank wrote:
> > > For beginners I'd definitely recommend apt-get, or even one of its GUI
> > > fronteds like Synaptic.
> > 
> > The only problem for a beginner using Synaptic is that if it is all she
> > knows, and X crashes, they have no experience to fall back on.
> > 
> 
> I completely agree. Everyone should have some command line experience in
> case anything ever breaks X.org, it could save lots of data and time.
> 
> I recommend aptitude for the new user, apt-get doesn't track
> dependencies as well as aptitude does, and you don't have to remember
> seperate commands (apt-* as opposed to aptitude)
> 

I'd vote for wajig myself. The first thing I do with a new installation
is to install and run wajig.


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Frank Terbeck]

Kamaraju S Kusumanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 06:00:02PM -0400, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
[...]
> >> sudo apt-get build-dep texmacs
> >> sudo apt-get source texmacs
[...]
> > 
> > Are those things a newbie cares about?  I've never used them in
> > the 8 years I've been using debian.
> 
> Probably not! But if you want to compile debian packages from source
> then I think you need those commands.

Not necessarily. There is 'apt-src', which I personally prefer for
building debian packages from source (which I currently only do for
two packages).

Regards, Frank

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nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Douglas Allan Tutty]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2007 at 06:57:16AM -0700, Freddy Freeloader wrote:
> >>I have one recurring problem with aptitude. It keeps trying to remove
> >>gnome and everything related to it and a bunch of other stuff.
> >>Fortunately it takes up enough real estate on the screen that it is
> >>hard to miss and I just reply N and use apt for that task.
> >>
> >>
> 
> run "aptitude keep-all"  That will keep aptitude from trying to get rid 
> of it sees as your "unused" packages, plus all their dependencies. 
 
But then don't you have to go through aptitude interactively anyway and
reset manual/auto?  Instead of a blanket keep-all, use it interactivly
and sort the problem out directly.

Doug.


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Celejar]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 16:50:59 -0500
"Russell L. Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> * [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070414 16:28]:
> > I've been using Debian for about a month, and just upgraded to Etch.
> ... 
> > I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used
> > the "apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also
> > downloaded and compiled from source "tarballs" which is a little
> > more complicated but doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Are there
> > significant advantages and disadvantages to these methods, besides
> > just convenience?  I worry about dependencies, and maybe messing
> > stuff up with "apt-get update."
> 
> The Debian package manager was created because there is need for a
> package manager.  You would be a fool not to use it.

> However, there occasionally is need for an application which has not
> been packaged for Debian, and Debian has provision for installing such
> packages.  
> 
> Unless you are a guru or a masochist, immediately after using tasksel
> to install a desktop, you should install synaptic, if it has not
> already been installed by tasksel.  Then use synaptic exclusively for
> installing Debian packages from Debian repositories.  
> 
> Synaptic also was created in response to a need.  It is stable and
> reliable.  I have been using it exclusively for at least a year,
> during which I have not been plagued with problems of the sort
> reported almost daily by those who directly execute the lower-level
> package tools apt-get and aptitude.

apt-get and aptitude aren't lower level than Synaptic; they are just
cli or GUI (dpkg and perhaps dselect are indeed lower level). Aptitude
in particular is generally much more powerful than Synaptic. Most
problems encountered with apt-get / aptitude are either network
problems, update synch lag, gpg key problems, or other problems with
the basic dependency system. I don't believe that using Synaptic
eliminates most of them. If you've had a good experience, I'd say
you've just been luckier or more skilled.

Celejar


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Freddy Freeloader]

Michael Pobega wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Apr 15, 2007 at 07:13:07AM -0500, Dennis G. Wicks wrote:
  

Michael Pobega wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 05:50:26PM -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
 
  

On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:36:40PM -0700, Adam Frank wrote:
   


For beginners I'd definitely recommend apt-get, or even one of its
GUI fronteds like Synaptic.
 
  

The only problem for a beginner using Synaptic is that if it is all
she knows, and X crashes, they have no experience to fall back on.

   


I completely agree. Everyone should have some command line experience
in case anything ever breaks X.org, it could save lots of data and
time.

I recommend aptitude for the new user, apt-get doesn't track
dependencies as well as aptitude does, and you don't have to remember
seperate commands (apt-* as opposed to aptitude)
 
  

I have one recurring problem with aptitude. It keeps trying to remove
gnome and everything related to it and a bunch of other stuff.
Fortunately it takes up enough real estate on the screen that it is
hard to miss and I just reply N and use apt for that task.




run "aptitude keep-all"  That will keep aptitude from trying to get rid 
of it sees as your "unused" packages, plus all their dependencies. 


Just so you know you responded to me personally, and not to the mailing
list. I'll CC it, hopefully it works (I'm not sure if it will break the
thread)

- -- 
 
 /\\ http://digital-haze.net/~pobega/ - My Debian site and blog
_\_V Window Maker user, Debian enthusiast, Mutt lover
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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Russell L. Harris]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070414 16:28]:
> I've been using Debian for about a month, and just upgraded to Etch.
... 
> I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used
> the "apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also
> downloaded and compiled from source "tarballs" which is a little
> more complicated but doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Are there
> significant advantages and disadvantages to these methods, besides
> just convenience?  I worry about dependencies, and maybe messing
> stuff up with "apt-get update."

The Debian package manager was created because there is need for a
package manager.  You would be a fool not to use it.

However, there occasionally is need for an application which has not
been packaged for Debian, and Debian has provision for installing such
packages.  

Unless you are a guru or a masochist, immediately after using tasksel
to install a desktop, you should install synaptic, if it has not
already been installed by tasksel.  Then use synaptic exclusively for
installing Debian packages from Debian repositories.  

Synaptic also was created in response to a need.  It is stable and
reliable.  I have been using it exclusively for at least a year,
during which I have not been plagued with problems of the sort
reported almost daily by those who directly execute the lower-level
package tools apt-get and aptitude.


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Michael Pobega]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Apr 15, 2007 at 07:13:07AM -0500, Dennis G. Wicks wrote:
> Michael Pobega wrote:
> >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
> >
> >On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 05:50:26PM -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> >  
> >>On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:36:40PM -0700, Adam Frank wrote:
> >>
> >>>For beginners I'd definitely recommend apt-get, or even one of its
> >>>GUI fronteds like Synaptic.
> >>>  
> >>The only problem for a beginner using Synaptic is that if it is all
> >>she knows, and X crashes, they have no experience to fall back on.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I completely agree. Everyone should have some command line experience
> >in case anything ever breaks X.org, it could save lots of data and
> >time.
> >
> >I recommend aptitude for the new user, apt-get doesn't track
> >dependencies as well as aptitude does, and you don't have to remember
> >seperate commands (apt-* as opposed to aptitude)
> >  
> I have one recurring problem with aptitude. It keeps trying to remove
> gnome and everything related to it and a bunch of other stuff.
> Fortunately it takes up enough real estate on the screen that it is
> hard to miss and I just reply N and use apt for that task.
> 

Just so you know you responded to me personally, and not to the mailing
list. I'll CC it, hopefully it works (I'm not sure if it will break the
thread)

- -- 
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_\_V Window Maker user, Debian enthusiast, Mutt lover
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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Celejar]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:00:02 -0400
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> 
> > Curious:  what does apt-get do that aptitude non-interactive do; how
> > does the user's experience of each differ?  I thought that aptitude for
> > simple stuff a drop-in replacement for apt-get.
> > 
> 
> sudo apt-get build-dep texmacs
> sudo apt-get source texmacs
> 
> Replace texmacs with your favorite package name. More info on what the
> commands do can be read from the man page of apt-get. AFAIK, there are no
> aptitude equivalents for the above commands.
> 
> hth
> raju

But we did find this for 'build-dep':

http://p12n.org/hacks/aptitude-build-dep

Celejar


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Michael Pobega]

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On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 05:50:26PM -0400, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:36:40PM -0700, Adam Frank wrote:
> > For beginners I'd definitely recommend apt-get, or even one of its GUI
> > fronteds like Synaptic.
> 
> The only problem for a beginner using Synaptic is that if it is all she
> knows, and X crashes, they have no experience to fall back on.
> 

I completely agree. Everyone should have some command line experience in
case anything ever breaks X.org, it could save lots of data and time.

I recommend aptitude for the new user, apt-get doesn't track
dependencies as well as aptitude does, and you don't have to remember
seperate commands (apt-* as opposed to aptitude)

- -- 
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_\_V Window Maker user, Debian enthusiast, Mutt lover
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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 06:00:02PM -0400, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
>> Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
>> 
>> > Curious:  what does apt-get do that aptitude non-interactive do; how
>> > does the user's experience of each differ?  I thought that aptitude for
>> > simple stuff a drop-in replacement for apt-get.
>> > 
>> 
>> sudo apt-get build-dep texmacs
>> sudo apt-get source texmacs
>> 
>> Replace texmacs with your favorite package name. More info on what the
>> commands do can be read from the man page of apt-get. AFAIK, there are no
>> aptitude equivalents for the above commands.
> 
> Are those things a newbie cares about?  I've never used them in the 8
> years I've been using debian.

Probably not! But if you want to compile debian packages from source then I
think you need those commands.

raju

-- 
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http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Douglas Allan Tutty]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 06:00:02PM -0400, Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote:
> Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> 
> > Curious:  what does apt-get do that aptitude non-interactive do; how
> > does the user's experience of each differ?  I thought that aptitude for
> > simple stuff a drop-in replacement for apt-get.
> > 
> 
> sudo apt-get build-dep texmacs
> sudo apt-get source texmacs
> 
> Replace texmacs with your favorite package name. More info on what the
> commands do can be read from the man page of apt-get. AFAIK, there are no
> aptitude equivalents for the above commands.

Are those things a newbie cares about?  I've never used them in the 8
years I've been using debian.  

Doug.


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:

> Curious:  what does apt-get do that aptitude non-interactive do; how
> does the user's experience of each differ?  I thought that aptitude for
> simple stuff a drop-in replacement for apt-get.
> 

sudo apt-get build-dep texmacs
sudo apt-get source texmacs

Replace texmacs with your favorite package name. More info on what the
commands do can be read from the man page of apt-get. AFAIK, there are no
aptitude equivalents for the above commands.

hth
raju

-- 
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http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Kamaraju S Kusumanchi]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I've been using Debian for about a month, and just upgraded to Etch.  I'm
> very happy with it so far - my compliments to the people who create this
> great piece of work.
> 
> I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used the
> "apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also downloaded and
> compiled from source "tarballs" which is a little more complicated but
> doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Are there significant advantages and
> disadvantages to these methods, besides just convenience?  I worry about
> dependencies, and maybe messing stuff up with "apt-get update."

The apt-get method enables you to upgrade the packages without any effort.
The source "tarballs" is method is good only for the current version. It
does not (usually) bother about upgrading packages. The same is true for
removing packages.

As a newbie, you should consider reading the documentation manuals
(especially the ones under user's manuals) available at
http://www.debian.org/doc/ . Those documents will answer most of the
questions you would be getting in the next couple of weeks.

raju

-- 
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http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/
http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Jochen Schulz]

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>
> I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used
> the "apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also downloaded
> and compiled from source "tarballs" which is a little more complicated
> but doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Are there significant advantages
> and disadvantages to these methods, besides just convenience?

With self-compiled software, you have to take care of everything
yourself: dependencies, updates (including security relevant updates!)
and deinstallation. This is not bad per se, but can be a lot of work and
a little bit frustrating. Additionally, there may be some work to do to
get individual software packages work together seamlessly.

On the other hand, by doing it all yourself you may learn a lot of stuff
you would never even encounter if you only installed precompiled Debian
packages. And you have more freedom about the options you'd like to
compile into your software.

> I worry about dependencies, and maybe messing stuff up with "apt-get
> update."

If you remember to put self-compiled packages into directories like
/usr/local, apt will never interfere with these programs. But apt will
never know about them either, so if you have a self-compiled program
which is needed by a Debian package you are about to install, apt will
install the necessary Debian package as a dependency. That means that
you may end up with the same program or library twice on your system.
This doesn't necessarily lead to problems, but you'll generally want to
avoid that.

To keep your system stable and tidy, you should generally prefer to
install the Debian package of a specific program. This way you can
easily keep your whole system up to date and you can remove programs
without a trace, if you wish so. Messing your system up with apt-get (or
aptitude, which is the recommended package manager nowadays) is a lot
harder than by installing software yourself.

If you'd like to do more tasks by hand, you may want to take a look at
other distributions. Gentoo, for example, offers mainly source packages
which you have to compile yourself.

J.
-- 
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their imagined problems.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Douglas Allan Tutty]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:36:40PM -0700, Adam Frank wrote:
> For beginners I'd definitely recommend apt-get, or even one of its GUI
> fronteds like Synaptic.

The only problem for a beginner using Synaptic is that if it is all she
knows, and X crashes, they have no experience to fall back on.

Its just my personal axe: beginners should be comfortable with text-mode
basic tools: aptitude or apt-get, lynx (or elinks2), mutt, and a
text-mode editor (used by mutt if nothing else).  This way, he has the
tools he needs to get help from the list.

Curious:  what does apt-get do that aptitude non-interactive do; how
does the user's experience of each differ?  I thought that aptitude for
simple stuff a drop-in replacement for apt-get.

Doug.


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Kevin Mark]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 09:22:56PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've been using Debian for about a month, and just upgraded to Etch.
> I'm very happy with it so far - my compliments to the people who
> create this great piece of work.
> 
> I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used
> the "apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also downloaded
> and compiled from source "tarballs" which is a little more complicated
> but doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Are there significant advantages
> and disadvantages to these methods, besides just convenience?  I worry
> about dependencies, and maybe messing stuff up with "apt-get update."
> 
> Thanks for your advice.
> 
> George
The reason people use software packages is for the easy management. With
apt-get you can upgrade things and have it take care of getting all the
needed dependencies and alert you of any problems. With software
compiled from source, its all up to you to keep things working. If you
have a choice between deb, rpm, tgz or source, then i'd use them in this
order:
deb
rpm
tgz
source
There are tools like alien to convert rpm or tgz to deb. And there is
checkinstall to help with source. If you are more advanced, you can use
the debian 'equiv' package to tell dpkg about dependencies or even
create your own debian packages. The point is, folks like to make things
easier, not harder. If you want to use a package that you can find in
deb format. Ask here, we may know a better option than source or may
know of a deb that you may not know about.
-K
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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Douglas Allan Tutty]

On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 09:22:56PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> I've been using Debian for about a month, and just upgraded to Etch.
> I'm very happy with it so far - my compliments to the people who
> create this great piece of work.
> 
> I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used
> the "apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also downloaded
> and compiled from source "tarballs" which is a little more complicated
> but doesn't seem to be a big deal.  Are there significant advantages
> and disadvantages to these methods, besides just convenience?  I worry
> about dependencies, and maybe messing stuff up with "apt-get update."

Welcome George.

There's a bit of a religious nature over the choice between apt-get and
aptitude.  Aptitude is supposed to do everything that apt-get will do
but in addition, it keeps track of packages that have only been
installed to meet dependencies of packages that you specifically wanted
installed.  Later, if you remove a package, aptitude will also remove
anything that was automatically installed that is no longer required by
anything.

Anything you install from source should go in either /usr/local or /opt
so that it doesn't interfere with the debian packaging system.

Since the release notes say that aptitude is the preferred method of
managing packages, that is what I would suggest too.

The first time you start aptitude interactivly, go down the list of
packages that are installed.  Anything that you don't specifically want
installed (e.g. most of the libs), mark as auto so that aptitude will
handle them.  After you have done this one, you won't have to repeat
this ever again unless you reinstall (which you should never _have_ to
do).  

As far as tarballs of apps that don't have a deb:  why not package up a
deb and install that with aptitude as well?  I haven't done this but
lots of people on this list have and can help.

Since you're new to debian, I suggest you read (available as packages):
debian-reference
debian-policy (slected sections) and FHS
securing debian (harden-doc)
aptitude user's guide

Also, make sure that you can use one of the editors in /bin or /sbin,
for your friend Justin Case.  If you like vi, there's vim-tiny,
otherwise, use nano-tiny.

Enjoy.

Doug.


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Re: Noob question - best way to install software

[Adam Frank]

For beginners I'd definitely recommend apt-get, or even one of its GUI
fronteds like Synaptic.


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Noob question - best way to install software

[georgepwhite]

I've been using Debian for about a month, and just upgraded to Etch.  I'm very 
happy with it so far - my compliments to the people who create this great piece 
of work.

I am wondering about the best way to install software.  I have used the 
"apt-get" method, which is pretty simple, and have also downloaded and compiled 
from source "tarballs" which is a little more complicated but doesn't seem to 
be a big deal.  Are there significant advantages and disadvantages to these 
methods, besides just convenience?  I worry about dependencies, and maybe 
messing stuff up with "apt-get update."

Thanks for your advice.

George


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