OT: mass installation on XBox
hi there, we would like to set up about 100 Microsoft X-Boxes in a cluster configuration running Debian. I have heard that they work with Debian GNU/Linux and thus we are quite happily willing to take on the challenge of making them all behave as one big computer. We are currently investigating how to do the mass installation. FAI is one way, but the more we think about it, the more we'd just like to make them thin clients actually. So now I am wondering - is there any way you can make the X-Box boot from the network, or from a custom CDR? or, as a last resort, from a USB floppy drive? thanks for any tips and pointers. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck "even if you persuade me, you won't persuade me." -- aristophanes msg04751/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
OT: mass installation on XBox
With this thread, I am trying to achieve two things: - create a strategy to create one such cluster, or find technical arguments against a cluster built on XBoxes. - show Hanspeter what an excellent mailing list debian-user is. As it stands, two days after the original post, we have about 100 replies with only 3-5 helpful ones. Can we please get back on the topic? I don't care about the law, and I have long decided that the US is killing itself with their own weapons (and Europe happily follows... Lemmings, anyone?). But we're in Switzerland, so *nothing* of all this applies. Now could we please reduce the chatter to the topic? Thanks. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck have you drugged your kids today? msg05236/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, 2002-10-02 at 05:40, martin f krafft wrote: > hi there, > > we would like to set up about 100 Microsoft X-Boxes in a cluster > configuration running Debian. I have heard that they work with Debian > GNU/Linux and thus we are quite happily willing to take on the > challenge of making them all behave as one big computer. > > We are currently investigating how to do the mass installation. FAI is > one way, but the more we think about it, the more we'd just like to > make them thin clients actually. > > So now I am wondering - is there any way you can make the X-Box boot > from the network, or from a custom CDR? or, as a last resort, from > a USB floppy drive? > > thanks for any tips and pointers. I think you have to buy special (read: expensive) USB keyboards and mice for the Xbox. Do you already have the 100 Xboxen? Those $199 Wal-Mart specials look pretty interesting, but that's still $20,000 for 100 of them... -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | || | "What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, | | other than that they trained in these camps?" | | 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 | | men arrested near Buffalo NY | ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.02.1253 +0200]: > I think you have to buy special (read: expensive) USB keyboards > and mice for the Xbox. One more reason to boot off the network or a CDR. > Do you already have the 100 Xboxen? Those $199 Wal-Mart specials > look pretty interesting, but that's still $20,000 for 100 of them... If the university pays, I'll happily oblige. If people have other suggestions (PS2) that they can back up with solid arguments, we're happy to listen. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck micro$oft is to operating systems & security what mcdonalds is to gourmet cuisine. msg04754/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 02/10/2002 (13:03) : > > Do you already have the 100 Xboxen? Those $199 Wal-Mart specials > > look pretty interesting, but that's still $20,000 for 100 of them... > > If the university pays, I'll happily oblige. If people have other > suggestions (PS2) that they can back up with solid arguments, we're > happy to listen. Why does a university buy xbox? Preben -- Ada95 is good for you. http://libre.act-europe.fr/Software_Matters/02-C_pitfalls.pdf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 05:53:56AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > I think you have to buy special (read: expensive) USB keyboards > and mice for the Xbox. The controller ports are electrically compatible with USB, you just need to adapt the physical plug. A guy at my local LUG solved this by soldering a normal USB port on a cable to the back of one of the controller ports. I'd hate to do that 100 times tho... -rob msg04786/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Preben Randhol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.02.1429 +0200]: > > If the university pays, I'll happily oblige. If people have other > > suggestions (PS2) that they can back up with solid arguments, we're > > happy to listen. > > Why does a university buy xbox? Because it's a cheap P3-700 that we can put into a cluster for evolutionary computation. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck # vim:tw=70 msg04829/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wednesday 02 October 2002 01:48 pm, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Preben Randhol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.02.1429 +0200]: > > > If the university pays, I'll happily oblige. If people have other > > > suggestions (PS2) that they can back up with solid arguments, we're > > > happy to listen. > > > > Why does a university buy xbox? > > Because it's a cheap P3-700 that we can put into a cluster for > evolutionary computation. I refuse to believe this nonsense. What university is this, and what public grant will pay for the illegal use of hardware? Even from a purely practical point of view, XBox will not pay for itself as a cluster component. Oleg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
Oleg writes: > I refuse to believe this nonsense. What university is this, and what > public grant will pay for the illegal use of hardware? Illegal how? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Oleg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.02. +0200]: > I refuse to believe this nonsense. What university is this, and what > public grant will pay for the illegal use of hardware? "illegal use of hardware" ??? show me the law that i am breaking, please! > Even from a purely practical point of view, XBox will not pay for > itself as a cluster component. Why not? Can you give better arguments? Where else do you get a 700 MHz P3 with 64Mb and 8Gb hdd with network support for $200? Aside, Debian runs on it, so why worry? -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck i'd rather be riding a high speed tractor with a beer on my lap, and a six pack of girls next to me. msg04864/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:22:51 -0400 Oleg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I refuse to believe this nonsense. What university is this, and what > public grant will pay for the illegal use of hardware? Even from a > purely practical point of view, XBox will not pay for itself as a > cluster component. > > Oleg How is it illegal to use hardware that he legally owns? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wednesday 02 October 2002 04:47 pm, martin f krafft wrote: > Where else do you get a 700 MHz P3 with 64Mb and 8Gb hdd with network > support for $200? Aside, Debian runs on it, so why worry? Firstly, you need a mod chip for each Xbox. Secondly, you need to install them into each Xbox. Thirdly, how many Xboxes, mod chips, expensive Myrinet networks, and how much labor would it take to replace *one* dual Athlon 4? Striclty speaking, for some hard problems, where "connectivity" is very important, even 100 XBoxes working together will not reach the same performance. Luckily, most interesting number-crunching problems fall somewhere in the middle: connetivity is important, but some parallelization is possible. Our lab had to write a specific grant application for a Linux cluster. I just don't think a grant application asking for well over $20,000 to buy Xboxes, mod chips and network hardware has even the slightest chance of being approved. And even *if* one goes through the process of raising the money necessary for this, if Microsoft comes out with the new Xbox version that resists hacking by that time, you may just get stuck with 100 game consoles. As to the legal issues, IANAL and I don't even know under which jurisdiction you live. Consider my ealier statement a friendly suggestion to consult one. Cheers, Oleg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
> Firstly, you need a mod chip for each Xbox. Secondly, you need to install > them into each Xbox. Thirdly, how many Xboxes, mod chips, expensive Myrinet > networks, and how much labor would it take to replace *one* dual Athlon 4? > > Striclty speaking, for some hard problems, where "connectivity" is very > important, even 100 XBoxes working together will not reach the same > performance. > > Luckily, most interesting number-crunching problems fall somewhere in the > middle: connetivity is important, but some parallelization is possible. > > Our lab had to write a specific grant application for a Linux cluster. I just > don't think a grant application asking for well over $20,000 to buy Xboxes, > mod chips and network hardware has even the slightest chance of being > approved. > > And even *if* one goes through the process of raising the money necessary for > this, if Microsoft comes out with the new Xbox version that resists hacking > by that time, you may just get stuck with 100 game consoles. > > As to the legal issues, IANAL and I don't even know under which jurisdiction > you live. Consider my ealier statement a friendly suggestion to consult one. Ugh. I have to tell you, why is everyone so damned worried about "why would you want to do it." Why? Because it's possible. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:16:58 -0400 vanillicat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How is it illegal to use hardware that he legally owns? Depending on where you live (and in some cases where you travel) there's this nasty thing called the DMCA. Some might interpret the modification of the box a violation of the DMCA. However, IANAL. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
"vanilli" == vanilli writes: vanilli> How is it illegal to use hardware that he legally owns? Since I live in the USA, the legality of my using my DVD ROM drive to watch legally obtained DVDs under Linux is at best questionable, and probably outright illegal. It's due to this grandiosely titled law called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). But I guess you already knew this somewhere.. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 03/10/2002 (07:10) : > Because it's a cheap P3-700 that we can put into a cluster for > evolutionary computation. Are you sure it isn't for devolutionary gaming ;-) I find this hard to believe. Preben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Oleg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0048 +0200]: > Firstly, you need a mod chip for each Xbox. Secondly, you need to > install them into each Xbox. Thirdly, how many Xboxes, mod chips, > expensive Myrinet networks, and how much labor would it take to > replace *one* dual Athlon 4? These are valid points that speak for regular machines rather than XBoxes. However, in terms of size and stackability, the XBox beats any small tower or similar. > Our lab had to write a specific grant application for a Linux > cluster. I just don't think a grant application asking for well over > $20,000 to buy Xboxes, mod chips and network hardware has even the > slightest chance of being approved. Well, you let that be our problem, okay? > And even *if* one goes through the process of raising the money > necessary for this, if Microsoft comes out with the new Xbox version > that resists hacking by that time, you may just get stuck with 100 > game consoles. We're no fools, okay? > As to the legal issues, IANAL and I don't even know under which > jurisdiction you live. Consider my ealier statement a friendly > suggestion to consult one. I can't imagine a single law that would forbid me to do something with a product I acquired, as long as that something isn't in disagreement with the law. But since we ain't pirating or hacking, there's really nothing wrong with installing Linux on an XBox... -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck as i let go of my feelings of guilt, i can get in touch with my inner sociopath. msg04962/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Jamin W. Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0456 +0200]: > Depending on where you live (and in some cases where you travel) > there's this nasty thing called the DMCA. Some might interpret the > modification of the box a violation of the DMCA. However, IANAL. It's in Switzerland where the DMCA (luckily) doesn't apply. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck "gilmour's guitar sounds good whether you've got a bottle of cider in your hand or a keyboard and a mouse." -- prof. bruce maxwell msg04965/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Preben Randhol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0717 +0200]: > > Because it's a cheap P3-700 that we can put into a cluster for > > evolutionary computation. > > Are you sure it isn't for devolutionary gaming ;-) Well, with the 100 DVD players and camserv, we are then planning to have 100 different movies streamed to the entire lab when the cluster isn't doing something useful. haha, just joking. > I find this hard to believe. Sorry. We'll invite anyone to come and visit the first Microsoft-sponsored cluster of Linux nodes. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck i no longer need to punish, deceive or compromise myself. unless, of course, i want to stay employed. msg04966/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: OT: mass installation on XBox
Cool!! I'd come check it out.. -Original Message- From: martin f krafft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:58 AM To: debian users Cc: hanspeter kunz Subject: Re: OT: mass installation on XBox also sprach Preben Randhol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0717 +0200]: > > Because it's a cheap P3-700 that we can put into a cluster for > > evolutionary computation. > > Are you sure it isn't for devolutionary gaming ;-) Well, with the 100 DVD players and camserv, we are then planning to have 100 different movies streamed to the entire lab when the cluster isn't doing something useful. haha, just joking. > I find this hard to believe. Sorry. We'll invite anyone to come and visit the first Microsoft-sponsored cluster of Linux nodes. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck i no longer need to punish, deceive or compromise myself. unless, of course, i want to stay employed. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/02 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 02 October 2002 10:57 pm, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Preben Randhol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0717 +0200]: > > > Because it's a cheap P3-700 that we can put into a cluster for > > > evolutionary computation. > > > > Are you sure it isn't for devolutionary gaming ;-) > > Well, with the 100 DVD players and camserv, we are then planning to > have 100 different movies streamed to the entire lab when the cluster > isn't doing something useful. haha, just joking. > > > I find this hard to believe. > > Sorry. We'll invite anyone to come and visit the first > Microsoft-sponsored cluster of Linux nodes. Greetings Martin: Personally, I also find your quest a bit alarming. Having said that, I also think it is quite amusing. One must understand that if you succeed in building this xbox cluster, it will be a hallmark! This will either make you famous, or infamous, or both! I just sold an old laptop for US$25. It was a 486/20MHz with broken pcmcia and M$win3.11. The person wanted it to copy files from another old computer. Why do I mention this? This person could have bought my other laptop that had cdrom, floppy, much bigger hd, pcmcia and was 6x faster, but he wanted to play with old software for the pure sake of playing with old software. That was the point really, it was there and he was willing. I also agree with your conceptual argument: cheap cheap cheap. I have never played with an xbox because of its origin, but I think it's great that you are in a land where you *can* do this. That is a basic freedom we somehow started to loose not so long ago here. . That's about it Martin. If you get your grant, your xboxes, and Linux installed and working, you will be well known :) heehee. gl tatah - -- Jaye Inabnit\ARS ke6sls\/A GNU-Debian linux user\/ http://www.qsl.net/ke6sls If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. I SHOUT JUST FOR FUN. Free software, in a free world, for a free spirit. Please Support freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9m+PMZHBxKsta6kMRAiWJAJ9XfGvI7ylKOLWL260noYJNEBiS/QCfXDJ0 j35z3A84lGZ9rZFLmwWhbUU= =bBNL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thursday 03 October 2002 01:49 am, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Oleg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0048 +0200]: > > Firstly, you need a mod chip for each Xbox. Secondly, you need to > > install them into each Xbox. Thirdly, how many Xboxes, mod chips, > > expensive Myrinet networks, and how much labor would it take to > > replace *one* dual Athlon 4? > > These are valid points that speak for regular machines rather than > XBoxes. However, in terms of size and stackability, the XBox beats any > small tower or similar. A node can be just a motherboard in a big box called "cluster". It can also have its own case, but it will still be just as small. So I'd even say a single Xbox takes up as much space as a single regular node. The fallacy of such comparison is in that it does not take into account the fact that you need _many_ Xboxes to replace one regular node. Consider a node that is a _dual_ Athlon 4 at 2000+ MHz. To match it with pure CPU speed using XBoxes, one will need 6 of them. That's $1000 right there. Add the mod chips, labor, network costs, maintenance extras, inability to upgrade; and the XBox option just doesn't seem very attractive to me. OTOH I wouldn't want to stand in the way of innovation, so if you _must_ make a Linux cluster out of Xboxes, good luck! Oleg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
Shyamal Prasad wrote: > "vanilli" == vanilli writes: > > vanilli> How is it illegal to use hardware that he legally owns? > > Since I live in the USA, the legality of my using my DVD ROM drive to > watch legally obtained DVDs under Linux is at best questionable, and > probably outright illegal. It's due to this grandiosely titled law > called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). > > But I guess you already knew this somewhere.. > > > At least here in Aus we have knocked that on its head, at least in regard to mod chips. The was recently a court ruling against sony, allowing people to legally install mod chips in playstations. Barney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 10:02:22PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > The controller ports are electrically compatible with USB, you just need > to adapt the physical plug. A guy at my local LUG solved this by > soldering a normal USB port on a cable to the back of one of the > controller ports. I'd hate to do that 100 times tho... If it's a cluster, methinks you'd only need to do this for one Xbox, not all. -- Baloo msg04986/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 09:56:09PM -0500, Jamin W. Collins wrote: > Depending on where you live (and in some cases where you travel) there's > this nasty thing called the DMCA. Some might interpret the modification > of the box a violation of the DMCA. However, IANAL. So be sure to be living in the 9th Circuit if you're attempting this in the US. 8:o) -- Baloo msg04987/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 07:57:41AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: > Sorry. We'll invite anyone to come and visit the first > Microsoft-sponsored cluster of Linux nodes. I would think Microsoft would have to be giving away XBoxen to you for you to properly make that claim. Or is that what happened and they just don't know that Linux will be used yet? -- Baloo msg04988/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 07:49:23AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: > These are valid points that speak for regular machines rather than > XBoxes. However, in terms of size and stackability, the XBox beats any > small tower or similar. At what point in history did everybody forget that a tower is essentially just an AT case with the rubber feet on the wrong side and a different power supply? -- Baloo msg04989/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 07:55:12AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Jamin W. Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0456 +0200]: > > Depending on where you live (and in some cases where you travel) > > there's this nasty thing called the DMCA. Some might interpret the > > modification of the box a violation of the DMCA. However, IANAL. > > It's in Switzerland where the DMCA (luckily) doesn't apply. You might even be lucky enough to evade the EUCD, then, which is not that far off ... -- Colin Watson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Oleg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.0851 +0200]: > Consider a node that is a _dual_ Athlon 4 at 2000+ MHz. To match it > with pure CPU speed using XBoxes, one will need 6 of them. That's > $1000 right there. Add the mod chips, labor, network costs, > maintenance extras, inability to upgrade; and the XBox option just > doesn't seem very attractive to me. With evolutionary computation and many other computational processes, a dual Athlon 2GHz cannot be compared to 6 XBoxes. Sure, the two 2GHz processors will be done blazingly fast, but if you're talking about something not quite as computationally intensive as graphics or some other major matrix calculation, then the 700 MHz may well compare. And in that case, you can do 6 operations in almost the same time as 2 on the Athlon. > OTOH I wouldn't want to stand in the way of innovation, so if you > _must_ make a Linux cluster out of Xboxes, good luck! If I _must_ do something, then I am in the wrong place. No, we're trying to evaluate possibilties, and your comments (now that they are becoming more founded) are definitely going to be taken into account. Our mind's not set on the XBox. But right now, there are many things speaking for it. Anyway, we bought one, we'll see what happens... -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck micros~1: for when quality, reliability, and security just aren't that important! msg04996/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 10:18:07AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: > > It's in Switzerland where the DMCA (luckily) doesn't apply. > > You might even be lucky enough to evade the EUCD, then, which is not > that far off ... No such luck. The Swiss signed on to the EU recently. -- Baloo msg05008/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:49:23 +0200 martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > These are valid points that speak for regular machines rather than > XBoxes. However, in terms of size and stackability, the XBox beats any > small tower or similar. Not by much: http://www.shuttleonline.com/spec.php3?model=ss51 http://www.shuttleonline.com/spec.php3?model=ss40 You can put one of these together for roughly $500 last I checked, or you can order them pre-assembled from here: http://www.cyberpowersystem.com/highendsystem/AMDMINI.htm > I can't imagine a single law that would forbid me to do something with > a product I acquired, as long as that something isn't in disagreement > with the law. Isn't that in general the nature of a _law_? -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Colin Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1118 +0200]: > You might even be lucky enough to evade the EUCD, then, which is not > that far off ... So being German, I am interested. How the hell can anyone make it illegal for me to modify the product I legally bought to do the legal things I want to do therewith??? Where in the EUCD would this be stated? I can't find it on http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/eucd/eucd.html -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck kermit: why are there so many songs about rainbows? fozzy: that's part of what rainbows do. msg05010/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1028 +0200]: > I would think Microsoft would have to be giving away XBoxen to you for > you to properly make that claim. Or is that what happened and they > just don't know that Linux will be used yet? It's not a claim that I'll make official. But since M$ loses about $150 per XBox sold, it is almost as if sponsored... -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck "those who are faithful know only the trivial side of love: it is the faithless who know love's tragedies." -- oscar wilde msg05012/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1024 +0200]: > At what point in history did everybody forget that a tower is > essentially just an AT case with the rubber feet on the wrong side and > a different power supply? What's your point? -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck "man soll nicht in kirchen gehn, wenn man reine luft atmen will." - friedrich nietzsche msg05013/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 01:42:08PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: > also sprach Colin Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1118 +0200]: > > You might even be lucky enough to evade the EUCD, then, which is not > > that far off ... > > So being German, I am interested. How the hell can anyone make it > illegal for me to modify the product I legally bought to do the legal > things I want to do therewith??? > > Where in the EUCD would this be stated? I can't find it on > http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/eucd/eucd.html Ever heard of the term "circumvention", as applied to copy-prevention techniques? See the URL you quoted, chapter III, article 6. -- Colin Watson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Jamin W. Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1346 +0200]: > > I can't imagine a single law that would forbid me to do something with > > a product I acquired, as long as that something isn't in disagreement > > with the law. > > Isn't that in general the nature of a _law_? It isn't illegal to emit light of a green colour. Then, am I going against the law if I buy a lamp and insert a green bulb? It isn't illegal to rip pages out of a book. Then, am I going against the law if I buy a book for the sole purpose of a decorative scratch paper depository? It isn't illegal to play records backwards. Then, am I going against the law if I rewire my record player to turn the record the other way? Silly examples. I am not planing on harming Micro$oft. I am buying their product, just not for the usage that they would like to see. I am not going to reverse-engineer and I am not going to pirate anything or otherwise damage their sales. How am I going against the law? -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck a qui sait comprendre, peu de mots suffisent. -- intelligenti pauca the reason the mainstream is thought of as a stream is because it is so shallow. msg05022/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1030 +0200]: > On Wed, Oct 02, 2002 at 10:02:22PM +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > The controller ports are electrically compatible with USB, you just need > > to adapt the physical plug. A guy at my local LUG solved this by > > soldering a normal USB port on a cable to the back of one of the > > controller ports. I'd hate to do that 100 times tho... > > If it's a cluster, methinks you'd only need to do this for one Xbox, > not all. True. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck there is no place like ~ msg05023/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
martin f krafft wrote: >It isn't illegal to play records backwards. >Then, am I going against the law if I rewire my record player to turn >the record the other way? > What's a "record player", Daddy? ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Wed, 2002-10-02 at 17:49, Matthew Daubenspeck wrote: [snip] > > Ugh. I have to tell you, why is everyone so damned worried about "why > would you want to do it." > > Why? Because it's possible. That's not a very good reason for a University to spend it's limited amount of public money... -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | || | "What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, | | other than that they trained in these camps?" | | 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 | | men arrested near Buffalo NY | ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 07:13, Colin Watson wrote: > On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 01:42:08PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote: > > also sprach Colin Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1118 +0200]: > > > You might even be lucky enough to evade the EUCD, then, which is not > > > that far off ... > > > > So being German, I am interested. How the hell can anyone make it > > illegal for me to modify the product I legally bought to do the legal > > things I want to do therewith??? > > > > Where in the EUCD would this be stated? I can't find it on > > http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/eucd/eucd.html > > Ever heard of the term "circumvention", as applied to copy-prevention > techniques? See the URL you quoted, chapter III, article 6. So as long as he's not playing pirated games, he should be legal. (However, since IANAL, and MSFT is Evil, something Bad might still happen...) Clustering 100 Xboxen still seems like a waste of public money. -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | || | "What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, | | other than that they trained in these camps?" | | 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 | | men arrested near Buffalo NY | ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:46:04AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Wed, 2002-10-02 at 17:49, Matthew Daubenspeck wrote: > [snip] > > > > Ugh. I have to tell you, why is everyone so damned worried about "why > > would you want to do it." > > > > Why? Because it's possible. > > That's not a very good reason for a University to spend it's limited > amount of public money... If you think this is the first time ANY university has wasted money, I feel sorry for you :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thursday 03 October 2002 05:41 am, martin f krafft wrote: > Sure, the two 2GHz > processors will be done blazingly fast, but if you're talking about > something not quite as computationally intensive as graphics or some > other major matrix calculation, then the 700 MHz may well compare. It's true that for some things the bottleneck may be in RAM or even HD access. I'm curious, do you know of any standard benchmark reports of Linux on XBox such as LAPACK [1], kernel compilation, etc. Have you done any yourself? What system bus and what type of RAM does an XBox use? BTW, if one installs Linux on an XBox, can it still run Halo ? Cheers, Oleg [1] Naturally, the speed of matrix calculations will greatly depend on the BLAS library used. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:16:10 +0200 martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am not planing on harming Micro$oft. I am buying their product, just > not for the usage that they would like to see. I am not going to > reverse-engineer and I am not going to pirate anything or otherwise > damage their sales. How am I going against the law? There are laws (prehaps not in your location) that some may consider your endeavor to violate. The DMCA is but one possible example. IANAL. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 07:13, Colin Watson wrote: > > Ever heard of the term "circumvention", as applied to copy-prevention > > techniques? See the URL you quoted, chapter III, article 6. > > So as long as he's not playing pirated games, he should be legal. Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox to run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. Based on a cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it would seem that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. Again, IANAL. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 13:31:54 -0500 Jamin W.Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 07:13, Colin Watson wrote: > > > Ever heard of the term "circumvention", as applied to > > > copy-prevention techniques? See the URL you quoted, chapter III, > > > article 6. > > > > So as long as he's not playing pirated games, he should be legal. > > Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the > execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox > to run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. > Based on a cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it > would seem that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. > Again, IANAL. > > -- > Jamin W. Collins That should be interesting! If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I would love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who in the hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't construct a marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of hardware I bought and paid for to what I want it to do? This is ridiculous. Prost, Klaus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT: mass installation on XBox
>That should be interesting! >If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I would >love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who in the >hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't construct a >marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of hardware I bought and >paid for to what I want it to do? This is ridiculous. >Prost, >Klaus Well, in the U.S., it would probably be the same type of people who tell me I can't paint my house any damn color I want!! (I.E. Housing Associations) Bastards!!! :-) Barry deFreese NTS Technology Services Manager Nike Team Sports (949)-616-4005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Technology doesn't make you less stupid; it just makes you stupid faster." Jerry Gregoire - Former CIO at Dell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 12:48:40 -0700 "deFreese, Barry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >That should be interesting! > >If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I > >would love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who > >in the hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't > >construct a marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of > >hardware I bought and paid for to what I want it to do? This is > >ridiculous. > > >Prost, > > >Klaus > > Well, in the U.S., it would probably be the same type of people who > tell me I can't paint my house any damn color I want!! > > (I.E. Housing Associations) Bastards!!! :-) > Thats one of the reasons why I live in Brasil now. Colored houses!!! Beer on Sundays on the beach.Free software and everything else! At least for about 10 more years -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 11:28, Matthew Daubenspeck wrote: > On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:46:04AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On Wed, 2002-10-02 at 17:49, Matthew Daubenspeck wrote: > > [snip] > > > > > > Ugh. I have to tell you, why is everyone so damned worried about "why > > > would you want to do it." > > > > > > Why? Because it's possible. > > > > That's not a very good reason for a University to spend it's limited > > amount of public money... > > If you think this is the first time ANY university has wasted money, I > feel sorry for you :) Because they have wasted money in the past, and will do it in the future, I shouldn't be upset that they do it now? -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | || | "What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, | | other than that they trained in these camps?" | | 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 | | men arrested near Buffalo NY | ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:41:52 -0300 Klaus Imgrund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That should be interesting! > If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I would > love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who in the > hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't construct a > marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of hardware I bought and > paid for to what I want it to do? This is ridiculous. Yes, it is, but that doesn't make it any less of a reality. As for who these people are, I believe the term is "politician". -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thursday 03 October 2002 11:31 am, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 07:13, Colin Watson wrote: > > > Ever heard of the term "circumvention", as applied to copy-prevention > > > techniques? See the URL you quoted, chapter III, article 6. > > > > So as long as he's not playing pirated games, he should be legal. > > Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the > execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox to > run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. Based on a > cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it would seem > that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. Again, IANAL. surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of the xbox caused them real financial loss in order to prove a violation of patents or copyrights. even in order to prove that software copy-protection had been circumvented, one should have to provide evidence that copies had not only been made but also used in a fashion contrary to the conditions of the license, in order to justify a claim that that was the object of the manipulation. ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 04:01:48PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 11:28, Matthew Daubenspeck wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 09:46:04AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > On Wed, 2002-10-02 at 17:49, Matthew Daubenspeck wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > Ugh. I have to tell you, why is everyone so damned worried about "why > > > > would you want to do it." > > > > > > > > Why? Because it's possible. > > > > > > That's not a very good reason for a University to spend it's limited > > > amount of public money... > > > > If you think this is the first time ANY university has wasted money, I > > feel sorry for you :) > > Because they have wasted money in the past, and will do it in the > future, I shouldn't be upset that they do it now? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it happens. And this is the kind of project that screams "university funded" :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 17:02, ben wrote: > On Thursday 03 October 2002 11:31 am, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > > On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the > > execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox to > > run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. Based on a > > cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it would seem > > that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. Again, IANAL. > > surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of the xbox > caused them real financial loss in order to prove a violation of patents or > copyrights. even in order to prove that software copy-protection had been > circumvented, one should have to provide evidence that copies had not only > been made but also used in a fashion contrary to the conditions of the > license, in order to justify a claim that that was the object of the > manipulation. Unfortunately, I think that MS could make a justifiable claim that they are losing money. X-Boxen are sold below cost for maximum market pentration. The idea being that those costs and more will be recouped through game sales. If the systems in question are not being used to run games, and if no games are purchased for them, this would cause a loss to MS. A judge who's more concerned about business than plain old right and wrong (and those are too common for my liking) would probably rule in MS's favor. But, much like everyone else who has replied on this thread, IANAL. -Alex signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:06:04 -0500 Alex Malinovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 17:02, ben wrote: > > On Thursday 03 October 2002 11:31 am, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > > > On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict > > > the execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For > > > the XBox to run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this > > > mechanism. Based on a cursory look at the provided link and > > > referenced section it would seem that the application of a mod > > > chip would be a violation. Again, IANAL. > > > > surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of > > the xbox caused them real financial loss in order to prove a > > violation of patents or copyrights. even in order to prove that > > software copy-protection had been circumvented, one should have to > > provide evidence that copies had not only been made but also used in > > a fashion contrary to the conditions of the license, in order to > > justify a claim that that was the object of the manipulation. > > Unfortunately, I think that MS could make a justifiable claim that > they are losing money. X-Boxen are sold below cost for maximum market > pentration. The idea being that those costs and more will be recouped > through game sales. If the systems in question are not being used to > run games, and if no games are purchased for them, this would cause a > loss to MS. A judge who's more concerned about business than plain old > right and wrong (and those are too common for my liking) would > probably rule in MS's favor. But, much like everyone else who has > replied on this thread, IANAL. > > -Alex > Let me see if I got that right, I sell you 100.- bucks for 80.- then I sue you if you don't buy any other of my products that make up for my loss - all I got to do after that is to find some judge and attorney that are willing to take up the case? If that is really the case now in the U.S. something is slightly more than screwed up. If somebody sells a product below cost it shouldn't be the responsibility of the justice system and finally the taxpayer to secure that there are no losses. If somebody sells a product that is not secure - same story. If somebody leaves his car unlocked with the keys in the ignition and the thing gets stolen nobody is going to pay for it. Why are there other rules for M$ ??? Prost, Klaus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:02:25 -0700 ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of the > xbox caused them real financial loss in order to prove a violation of > patents or copyrights. That's the catch though. From what I've seen of the DMCA and it's European counter part, neither of them are concerned with patent or copyright. They are about circumventing restrictions, plain and simple. If there is a restriction and you bypass it, you're in violation. Is this stupid? Absolutely, but it also appears to be how both items read. > even in order to prove that software > copy-protection had been circumvented, one should have to provide > evidence that copies had not only been made but also used in a fashion > contrary to the conditions of the license I'm not sure they do. From Chapter III Article 6 (brief snippets, see article for complete version): | 1. Member States shall provide adequate legal protection against the | circumvention of any effective technological measures, | |[what do they consider a technological measure?] | |3. For the purposes of this Directive, the expression "technological |measures" means any technology, device or component that, in the normal |course of its operation, is designed to prevent or restrict acts | |[So, what are the members supposed to do?] | |2. Member States shall provide adequate legal protection against the |manufacture, import, distribution, sale, rental, advertisement for sale |or rental, or possession for commercial purposes of devices, products or |components or the provision of services which: |(a) are promoted, advertised or marketed for the purpose of circumvention |of, or |(b) have only a limited commercially significant purpose or use other |than to circumvent, or |(c) are primarily designed, produced, adapted or performed for the |purpose of enabling or facilitating the circumvention of, any effective |technological measures. and in Article 7: |1. Member States shall provide for adequate legal protection against any |person knowingly performing without authority any of the following |acts: |(a) the removal or alteration of any electronic rights-management |information; Looks pretty clear to me. The mere sale of circumvention equipment is supposed to be against the law. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thursday 03 October 2002 03:06 pm, Alex Malinovich wrote: > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 17:02, ben wrote: > > On Thursday 03 October 2002 11:31 am, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > > > On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the > > > execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox to > > > run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. Based on > > > a cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it would > > > seem that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. Again, > > > IANAL. > > > > surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of the > > xbox caused them real financial loss in order to prove a violation of > > patents or copyrights. even in order to prove that software > > copy-protection had been circumvented, one should have to provide > > evidence that copies had not only been made but also used in a fashion > > contrary to the conditions of the license, in order to justify a claim > > that that was the object of the manipulation. > > Unfortunately, I think that MS could make a justifiable claim that they > are losing money. X-Boxen are sold below cost for maximum market > pentration. The idea being that those costs and more will be recouped > through game sales. If the systems in question are not being used to run > games, and if no games are purchased for them, this would cause a loss > to MS. A judge who's more concerned about business than plain old right > and wrong (and those are too common for my liking) would probably rule > in MS's favor. But, much like everyone else who has replied on this > thread, IANAL. > sorry, that argument is equivalent to saying that m$'s business model for the xbox is law, rather than one company's marketing plan for one of their products. the logic of what you suggest implies that martin and any other consumer who purchases the xbox is simultaneously legally bound to purchase a sufficient number of games to enable the plan to succeed. anyone who lays out the bucks for the box must also have a legally sanctioned right to use it as a doorstop if they wish. does anyone on the list know what the actual purchase contract conditions are for the xbox? are there any lawyers on the list who want to venture a comment? ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thursday 03 October 2002 03:46 pm, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:02:25 -0700 ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of the > > xbox caused them real financial loss in order to prove a violation of > > patents or copyrights. > > That's the catch though. From what I've seen of the DMCA and it's > European counter part, neither of them are concerned with patent or > copyright. They are about circumventing restrictions, plain and simple. > If there is a restriction and you bypass it, you're in violation. Is this > stupid? Absolutely, but it also appears to be how both items read. > > > even in order to prove that software > > copy-protection had been circumvented, one should have to provide > > evidence that copies had not only been made but also used in a fashion > > contrary to the conditions of the license > > I'm not sure they do. From Chapter III Article 6 (brief snippets, see > > article for complete version): > | 1. Member States shall provide adequate legal protection against the > | circumvention of any effective technological measures, > | > |[what do they consider a technological measure?] > | > |3. For the purposes of this Directive, the expression "technological > |measures" means any technology, device or component that, in the normal > |course of its operation, is designed to prevent or restrict acts > | do you have a url for this? i'm curious as to what the remainder of 3. consists of, as in acts that do precisely what? if the manipulations that martin's objective requires don't actually facilitate that which the "technological measures" are designed to prevent, it could be argued that those measures haven't been circumvented; at which point, unless the purchaser is obliged to agree that the box cannot be used for any other computational purpose than to play m$ sanctioned applications, the project couldn't be deemed an illegal use. ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 04:39:53PM -0700, ben wrote: > On Thursday 03 October 2002 03:46 pm, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > > I'm not sure they do. From Chapter III Article 6 (brief snippets, see > > > > article for complete version): > > | 1. Member States shall provide adequate legal protection against the > > | circumvention of any effective technological measures, > > | > > |[what do they consider a technological measure?] > > | > > |3. For the purposes of this Directive, the expression "technological > > |measures" means any technology, device or component that, in the normal > > |course of its operation, is designed to prevent or restrict acts > > | > > do you have a url for this? Read back up in the thread: http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/eucd/eucd.html Of course this kind of thing is absurd, but welcome to modern legislative insanity. -- Colin Watson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On 0, Klaus Imgrund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:06:04 -0500 > Alex Malinovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > > Unfortunately, I think that MS could make a justifiable claim that > > they are losing money. X-Boxen are sold below cost for maximum market > > pentration. The idea being that those costs and more will be recouped > > through game sales. If the systems in question are not being used to > > run games, and if no games are purchased for them, this would cause a > > loss to MS. A judge who's more concerned about business than plain old > > right and wrong (and those are too common for my liking) would > > probably rule in MS's favor. But, much like everyone else who has > > replied on this thread, IANAL. > > > > -Alex > > > Let me see if I got that right, > > I sell you 100.- bucks for 80.- then I sue you if you don't buy any > other of my products that make up for my loss - all I got to do after > that is to find some judge and attorney that are willing to take up the > case? If that is really the case now in the U.S. something is slightly > more than screwed up. If somebody sells a product below cost it > shouldn't be the responsibility of the justice system and finally the > taxpayer to secure that there are no losses. If somebody sells a product > that is not secure - same story. If somebody leaves his car unlocked > with the keys in the ignition and the thing gets stolen nobody is going > to pay for it. Why are there other rules for M$ ??? IANAL but this sort of thing is certainly disallowed in Australia by the Trade Practices Act. It falls under the definition of 'preferential selling' or something of that sort. -- Tom Cook Information Technology Services, The University of Adelaide "Intellectual freedom is not the freedom to believe anything, but the freedom to believe only the truth." - Dr. John Stott Get my GPG public key: https://pinky.its.adelaide.edu.au/~tkcook/tom.cook-at-adelaide.edu.au msg05181/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On 0, martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > It isn't illegal to play records backwards. > Then, am I going against the law if I rewire my record player to turn > the record the other way? No, but you're probably breaking your needle ;-) Tom -- Tom Cook Information Technology Services, The University of Adelaide "Other people's priorities are endlessly odd." - Kingsley Amis Get my GPG public key: https://pinky.its.adelaide.edu.au/~tkcook/tom.cook-at-adelaide.edu.au msg05184/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On 0, "deFreese, Barry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >That should be interesting! > >If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I would > >love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who in the > >hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't construct a > >marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of hardware I bought and > >paid for to what I want it to do? This is ridiculous. > > >Prost, > > >Klaus > > Well, in the U.S., it would probably be the same type of people who tell me > I can't paint my house any damn color I want!! > > (I.E. Housing Associations) Bastards!!! :-) Man, and you guys call this the land of freedom? Tom -- Tom Cook Information Technology Services, The University of Adelaide Never be irreplacable: If you are irreplacable then you are unpromotable. Get my GPG public key: https://pinky.its.adelaide.edu.au/~tkcook/tom.cook-at-adelaide.edu.au msg05185/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
Tom writes: > Man, and you guys call this the land of freedom? The "Housing Associations" he is talking about are private associations of homeowners. He agreed to abide by their rules when he bought his house. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT: mass installation on XBox
-Original Message- From: Jamin W.Collins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: mass installation on XBox On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 07:13, Colin Watson wrote: > > Ever heard of the term "circumvention", as applied to copy-prevention > > techniques? See the URL you quoted, chapter III, article 6. > > So as long as he's not playing pirated games, he should be legal.> >Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the >execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox to >run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. Based on a >cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it would seem >that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. Again, IANAL. Just Another Friggin reason why they suck thouroughly to the frikin tenth power... >-- >Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/02 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/02 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 03 October 2002 03:06 pm, Alex Malinovich wrote: > On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 17:02, ben wrote: > > On Thursday 03 October 2002 11:31 am, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > > > On 03 Oct 2002 09:58:59 -0500 Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Not quite. As I understand it, the XBox has hardware to restrict the > > > execution of code to that signed and authorized by MS. For the XBox to > > > run Linux, one would first have to circumvent this mechanism. Based on > > > a cursory look at the provided link and referenced section it would > > > seem that the application of a mod chip would be a violation. Again, > > > IANAL. > > > > surely, m(acro)$ would have to show that martin's manipulation of the > > xbox caused them real financial loss in order to prove a violation of > > patents or copyrights. even in order to prove that software > > copy-protection had been circumvented, one should have to provide > > evidence that copies had not only been made but also used in a fashion > > contrary to the conditions of the license, in order to justify a claim > > that that was the object of the manipulation. > > Unfortunately, I think that MS could make a justifiable claim that they > are losing money. X-Boxen are sold below cost for maximum market > pentration. > -Alex Good point Alex. Funny thing is that I *think* that this, in itself, is illegal (US). The proviso is that any company selling goods for less than cost is undermining the market unfairly. . Fair, what the hell has fair got to do with market anyway . . . - -- Jaye Inabnit\ARS ke6sls\/A GNU-Debian linux user\/ http://www.qsl.net/ke6sls If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. I SHOUT JUST FOR FUN. Free software, in a free world, for a free spirit. Please Support freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9nRfAZHBxKsta6kMRAkdfAJ9V3GsLE07CRnK5jyWycuxUy3QbyQCePt9Z 24byWFXeU541IUpu4KJAVzM= =CYlp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Oleg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.1952 +0200]: > I'm curious, do you know of any standard benchmark reports of Linux > on XBox such as LAPACK [1], kernel compilation, etc. Have you done > any yourself? Not yet. > What system bus and what type of RAM does an XBox use? I think it's standard Intel and SDRAM, but I am not sure. Hanspeter (he's on CC) might answer this better than me. > BTW, if one installs Linux on an XBox, can it still run Halo ? What's Halo? Note that I am absolutely ignorant on this matter. But if Halo is the game engine, then yes, you can make them live together with a 10Gb drive, then you'll only have 2 Gb for Linux though. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck prepBut nI vrbLike adjHungarian! qWhat's artThe adjBig nProblem? -- alec flett @netscape msg05229/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Jamin W. Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.2330 +0200]: > Yes, it is, but that doesn't make it any less of a reality. As for who > these people are, I believe the term is "politician". Why the fuck are we accepting this? The next person to say "democracy" will get my foot up their butt. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck i am willing to make the mistakes if someone else is willing to learn from them. msg05232/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Alex Malinovich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.04.0006 +0200]: > Unfortunately, I think that MS could make a justifiable claim that > they are losing money. X-Boxen are sold below cost for maximum > market pentration. That *should* be illegal. Anyway, I ain't fighting M$ with the law as the basis for I don't believe in either. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. you feel sleepy. notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. close your eyes. the opinions stated above are yours. you cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise. msg05234/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Friday 04 October 2002 02:49 am, martin f krafft wrote: > With this thread, I am trying to achieve two things: > > - create a strategy to create one such cluster, or find technical > arguments against a cluster built on XBoxes. > > - show Hanspeter what an excellent mailing list debian-user is. > [snip] have you checked out xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/articles.php? there's also www.xboxhacker.net ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 10:18:07AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: > > > It's in Switzerland where the DMCA (luckily) doesn't apply. > > > > You might even be lucky enough to evade the EUCD, then, which is not > > that far off ... > > No such luck. The Swiss signed on to the EU recently. You're not thinking of their joining the United Nations, are you? -- Keith Willoughby | http://flat222.org/keith/ "If the world doesn't understand, then the world has got to learn" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.04.1311 +0200]: > have you checked out xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/articles.php? there's also > www.xboxhacker.net Yes, thanks, they are on our resources list. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck "what do you mean it's not packaged in debian?" msg05268/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
also sprach Keith Willoughby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.04.1432 +0200]: > > No such luck. The Swiss signed on to the EU recently. > > You're not thinking of their joining the United Nations, are you? Yes. See my other message. -- martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.) \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; net@madduck there's someone in my head but it's not me. -- pink floyd, the dark side of the moon, 1972 msg05269/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: OT: mass installation on XBox
>The "Housing Associations" he is talking about are private associations of >homeowners. He agreed to abide by their rules when he bought his house. >-- >John Hasler >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) >Dancing Horse Hill >Elmwood, WI I didn't "agree" to shit, try finding a house out here in California that doesn't have an association. Barry deFreese NTS Technology Services Manager Nike Team Sports (949)-616-4005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Technology doesn't make you less stupid; it just makes you stupid faster." Jerry Gregoire - Former CIO at Dell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
deFreese, Barry wrote: > I didn't "agree" to shit, try finding a house out here in California that > doesn't have an association. You had a choice. You could have simply not bought that house. I wouldn't have. As for finding houses without housing associations, it's not at all difficult. You just stay away from recently-built tract developments, which is a good idea anyway, because the houses in them are generally cheaply-built crap on small lots. I bought my house in October 1999 (San Mateo, CA, about 20 miles south of San Francisco). This neighborhood was originally built up back in the 1940s and '50s, and nearly all of the houses are of that vintage. They're solid and comfortable. No housing association, no annoying requirements about the color of the house or whatever. Meanwhile, my wife has relatives across the bay in Hayward who live in new tracts. The houses feel cramped and look cheap despite the new paint and faux-classical detailing, their yards are almost non-existent, and they have to put up with housing associations and their idiotic rules. (Then again, maybe they don't mind -- they're the sort of people who like to conform.) Craig -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT: mass installation on XBox
>You had a choice. You could have simply not bought that house. I >wouldn't have. Not that easy down here in Orange County area. Our development is the one of the oldest developments in Rancho Santa Margarita and it has an association. There is only one development here that doesn't and it is very difficult to find a home in. Barry deFreese NTS Technology Services Manager Nike Team Sports (949)-616-4005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Technology doesn't make you less stupid; it just makes you stupid faster." Jerry Gregoire - Former CIO at Dell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On 0, martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > also sprach Jamin W. Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.10.03.2330 +0200]: > > Yes, it is, but that doesn't make it any less of a reality. As for who > > these people are, I believe the term is "politician". > > Why the fuck are we accepting this? The next person to say "democracy" > will get my foot up their butt. Democa... sorry. Tom -- Tom Cook Information Technology Services, The University of Adelaide "This does not happen very often in Northallerton." - Siobhan Cowton, 14, of Yorkshire, after being hit by a meteorite. Get my GPG public key: https://pinky.its.adelaide.edu.au/~tkcook/tom.cook-at-adelaide.edu.au msg05403/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: OT: mass installation on XBox
Klaus wrote: > That should be interesting! > If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I would > love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who in the > hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't construct a > marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of hardware I bought and > paid for to what I want it to do? This is ridiculous. The key here is to give the lawyers an alternative. If backed into a corner, they will do the ridiculous thing in order to protect corporate profits. However, I believe that if an alternative is provided, then this move would not be taken. The issue is not the modification of the hardware, per se, but rather the data that can then be pirated after the modification is made. Therefore, the one alternative is to limit piracy. In order to do that, strict policing of data streams is necessary. So that is your choice: give up freedom to modify hardware, or submit all data moving in and out of your control to public scrutiny. Since the former is both distasteful and fundamentally impossible to enforce, the later is inevitable, IMHO. Encryption makes subjecting data to scrutiny difficult. So it is likely that anti-encryption, anti-obfuscation laws would be passed along side any scrutiny laws. Pick your poison: inability to modify the container, or have every bit of information you generate or consume scrutinized. Personally, I think that the former is the lesser of two evils, by far. From an enforcement point of view, I think that corporate America would agree. (E.g. it is much less expensive to enforce hardware modification laws than police all data conduits). (I will mention the third option, which is to not worry about enforcing data ownership at all. This policy simply will not, and cannot fly in this economic, legal or political environment. There is a small class of data which can still be sold in this context, namely that which the buyer has no incentive to share, or cannot share effectively. Three examples that come to mind are data that describes the buyer, data that is expensive to share, and data that is time-sensitive. (Of course, the seller never has an incentive to share)) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 12:22:46 -0700 "Josh Rehman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Klaus wrote: > > That should be interesting! > > If that thing ever gets put together and M$ thinks it is illegal I > would > > love to see a court battle over that in an european court. Who in > > the hell are those people that think they can tell me I can't > > construct a marslander out of a ford taurus? Or use a piece of > > hardware I bought and > > paid for to what I want it to do? This is ridiculous. > > The key here is to give the lawyers an alternative. If backed into a > corner, they will do the ridiculous thing in order to protect > corporate profits. However, I believe that if an alternative is > provided, then this move would not be taken. > > The issue is not the modification of the hardware, per se, but rather > the data that can then be pirated after the modification is made. > Therefore, the one alternative is to limit piracy. In order to do > that, strict policing of data streams is necessary. > > So that is your choice: give up freedom to modify hardware, or submit > all data moving in and out of your control to public scrutiny. Since > the former is both distasteful and fundamentally impossible to > enforce, the later is inevitable, IMHO. > > Encryption makes subjecting data to scrutiny difficult. So it is > likely that anti-encryption, anti-obfuscation laws would be passed > along side any scrutiny laws. > > Pick your poison: inability to modify the container, or have every bit > of information you generate or consume scrutinized. Personally, I > think that the former is the lesser of two evils, by far. From an > enforcement point of view, I think that corporate America would agree. > (E.g. it is much less expensive to enforce hardware modification laws > than police all data conduits). > > (I will mention the third option, which is to not worry about > enforcing data ownership at all. This policy simply will not, and > cannot fly in this economic, legal or political environment. There is > a small class of data which can still be sold in this context, namely > that which the buyer has no incentive to share, or cannot share > effectively. Three examples that come to mind are data that describes > the buyer, data that is expensive to share, and data that is > time-sensitive. (Of course, the seller never has an incentive to > share)) > Good points, the only problem I have with that whole stuff is that the industry should play with open cards here. If you buy a piece of hardware and you are not allowed to tailor it to your needs you don't really own it in the classical sense of ownership. For example with the xbox they should then give you a leasing contract and be done with it. This would be a completely honest solution so that even the dumbest customer out there can understand what he is in for. Of course that would put a little dent in the cash flow generated by the product and cause even heavier losses. So basically the industry gets it both ways.They 'sell' a product that you don't really own and get the money. I don't care what is in the law books about this issues - that's how I feel about it.I think it is fraud and no stinkin' law can change that. Prost, Klaus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: mass installation on XBox
> > >The issue is not the modification of the hardware, per se, but rather >the data that can then be pirated after the modification is made. >Therefore, the one alternative is to limit piracy. In order to do that, >strict policing of data streams is necessary. > > This is a logic conclusion only if you assume that you own the flow of data. This way we will soon be policing what other people think, because may be they are using our thoughts without paying us for that. The whole problem boils down to the fact that we humans believee that when we think something we own that thought. This wrong perspective follows from a misunderstanding of what thoughts are. We can not own thoughts the same way that we can not own the air of the planet. However, we have already seen many who have profitted from selling air. This point of view (of rejecting the property of thoughts) is as defendable as the point of view of accepting it. And it seems to be very close to the point in a Debian/Linux mailing list. This is free software, GPL after all. >So that is your choice: give up freedom to modify hardware, or submit >all data moving in and out of your control to public scrutiny. Since the >former is both distasteful and fundamentally impossible to enforce, the >later is inevitable, IMHO. > > Absolutely not. This can be only the point of view if we see the universe as a huge shop full of merchandise. But this is far from the way other people perceive surrounding reality. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
> Tom writes: > > Man, and you guys call this the land of freedom? > > The "Housing Associations" he is talking about are private associations of > homeowners. He agreed to abide by their rules when he bought his house. > -- yeah, well...it used to be the land of freedom. It's still closer to freedom than most places in the world but that seems to be rapidly changing. Housing Associations *were* a good idea for *some* people, but they have gotten *WAY* out of hand. There are housing associations near my neighborhood that force you to have a tree in your front yard. How asenine is that? Believe it or not, if you don't have a tree in your front yard, they can leagally take your home and property from you. The very notion of property ownership in the US has become, at best, a joke. Even if you do have it paid off, they city in which you live can come and take it from you because you aren't "conforming" to their beautification ordinances or other suppoed 'reasons' like that. The county in which you live can come take it from you because they need it for "county business." The state in which you live can come and take it from you for just about any reason they want. And as far as the federal gov was concerned it was theirs to start with. People say 'oh that never happens' but it happens all the time. It just isn't an epidemic so the masses tolerate it. Sad indeed. A very nice quote was sent to me today which sort of sums up the shituation in the US right now as far as I'm concerned: "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." - Julius Caesar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
>"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry >into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It >both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of >war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind >has >closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. >Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will >offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? >For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." > >- Julius Caesar > > http://www.snopes.com/quotes/caesar.htm it aint true. "How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar" Caesar always wrote in the third person to my knowledge. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 21:56, Vector wrote: > > Tom writes: >[snip] > property ownership in the US has become, at best, a joke. Even if you do > have it paid off, they city in which you live can come and take it from you > because you aren't "conforming" to their beautification ordinances or other Gov't bureaucrats can't just walk over to the County Records Office and rip up your deed. The gov't must have a very good reason to do so, and it takes a long time, and there are many hearings, appeals, etc. This is typically done only when your property becomes a public nuisance (house falling apart or letting grass grow very long, thus inviting rodents into the neighborhood), and even then, if it is something like grass, the county will usually send their own people out to cut your grass, and then bill you for it. > suppoed 'reasons' like that. The county in which you live can come take it > from you because they need it for "county business." The state in which you > live can come and take it from you for just about any reason they want. And > as far as the federal gov was concerned it was theirs to start with. People Eminent Domain is a good and ancient concept, and is in the US Constitution. Amendment V : ...Nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation. http://www.castlecoalition.org/faq/ Without it, the owner of a piece of property that "you" want to build a (school|road|airport|hospital|etc) on could jack up his asking price to outrageous heights and wait for the gov't to pay up. However, as always, crooked politicians twist the law to line their own pockets. http://www.castlecoalition.org/top_10_abuses/ -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | || | "What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, | | other than that they trained in these camps?" | | 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 | | men arrested near Buffalo NY | ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
Pure crap. Let me give you an example: You haven't paid property tax for a while. Then your property can be taken away from you. Which means it was never yours. You just had a licence to say it was yours. As soon as you stopped paying the yearly fee for the license, the truth came out. So, lets wake up and and stop thinking that we live in paradise. By the way, I like the idea of the duel. That would really be great, if they want to fight, let them do it themselves and stop messing the lives of others (who will not make any money from the oil anyway!) Ron Johnson wrote: >On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 21:56, Vector wrote: > > >>>Tom writes: >>> >>> >>[snip] >>property ownership in the US has become, at best, a joke. Even if you do >>have it paid off, they city in which you live can come and take it from you >>because you aren't "conforming" to their beautification ordinances or other >> >> > >Gov't bureaucrats can't just walk over to the County Records Office and >rip up your deed. The gov't must have a very good reason to do so, and >it takes a long time, and there are many hearings, appeals, etc. > >This is typically done only when your property becomes a public >nuisance (house falling apart or letting grass grow very long, >thus inviting rodents into the neighborhood), and even then, if >it is something like grass, the county will usually send their >own people out to cut your grass, and then bill you for it. > > > >>suppoed 'reasons' like that. The county in which you live can come take it >>from you because they need it for "county business." The state in which you >>live can come and take it from you for just about any reason they want. And >>as far as the federal gov was concerned it was theirs to start with. People >> >> > >Eminent Domain is a good and ancient concept, and is in the US >Constitution. Amendment V : ...Nor shall private property be >taken for public use without just compensation. >http://www.castlecoalition.org/faq/ > >Without it, the owner of a piece of property that "you" want to >build a (school|road|airport|hospital|etc) on could jack up his >asking price to outrageous heights and wait for the gov't to >pay up. > >However, as always, crooked politicians twist the law to line >their own pockets. >http://www.castlecoalition.org/top_10_abuses/ > > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 06:23:01AM -0400, Antonio Rodriguez wrote: > By the way, I like the idea of the duel. That would really be great, > if they want to fight, let them do it themselves and stop messing the > lives of others (who will not make any money from the oil anyway!) > (Disclaimer: I am an American. Maybe Mr. Rodriguez is as well, and if so, then that's fine. I'm just venting after listening to Gerhard Schroeder of Germany and after reading some of his campaign material.) I'm sick of Europeans suggesting that the entire reason that the US wants to attack Iraq is because of oil. I agree, it may be a secondary motive, heck, it may be over 50% of our reasons, but it's also because of the US's love for freedom and national security. I feel, as an American tax payer, that the UN Member Nations (including the US, Britain, France, Germany, Russia, et. al) have the right to search Iraq for weapons of mass destruction per the treaty that Hussein signed. Were Germany, et. al in our situation with weapons of mass destruction from a rogue nation (supposedly) pointing at it's national interest, how much do you think they would rock the boat? (I say supposedly because, like George Carlin, I don't believe on face value what the American media and American government tell me. That's why I have a satellite and can speak more than one Gov't approved language) Remember how poorly appeasement worked in Europe? How well are you Europeans repaying us after we saved your butt? (Okay, granted, maybe you don't owe us anything after saving our butt in the 1770s and 1780s :-)) Oh, and the only reason that Hussein wants a duel is that the Iraqi air-force and army are no match for the US and UN forces. I'm sorry, I don't agree it, but the army with the most bodies usually wins, Saddam. Unfortunately, that's how foreign politics have been played out since the times of Caesar. Just my (rambling) two cents, and sorry if I offend anyone (too much), -- -- Edward Guldemond Key fingerprint: 29FF 2969 A04E F934 3F03 4329 BC56 3AA7 2F57 6735 msg05241/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 06:39:19AM -0400, Edward Guldemond wrote: > (Disclaimer: I am an American. Maybe Mr. Rodriguez is as well, and if > so, then that's fine. I'm just venting after listening to Gerhard > Schroeder of Germany and after reading some of his campaign material.) Please take this off-list. Thanks. Vinai msg05242/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
On 4 Oct 2002, Ron Johnson wrote: > Gov't bureaucrats can't just walk over to the County Records Office and > rip up your deed. The gov't must have a very good reason to do so, and > it takes a long time, and there are many hearings, appeals, etc. Up here in Ontario, Canada at least, it's not required to actually give you anything for your property if the government decides they want it. Additionally, they can take it, and give it to another organization or person, again, without compensating you for it. Granted, this rarely if ever happens, they will sit down and offer you something for it. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
Edward Guldemond wrote: >On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 06:23:01AM -0400, Antonio Rodriguez wrote: > > >>By the way, I like the idea of the duel. That would really be great, >>if they want to fight, let them do it themselves and stop messing the >>lives of others (who will not make any money from the oil anyway!) >> >> >> > >(Disclaimer: I am an American. Maybe Mr. Rodriguez is as well, and if >so, then that's fine. I'm just venting after listening to Gerhard >Schroeder of Germany and after reading some of his campaign material.) > >I'm sick of Europeans suggesting that the entire reason that the US >wants to attack Iraq is because of oil. I agree, it may be a secondary >motive, heck, it may be over 50% of our reasons, but it's also because >of the US's love for freedom and national security. > > Then why did the US supply those weapons to Saddam Hussein during Iraq's war against Iran. Iraq used those weapons to carry out attacks against Iran and devastate their own Kurdish population. Given the US's past record on supporting crackpot dictators around the world it would seem weird for them to support freedom and security now. You're right there are other reasons besides oil. One major one is to scare other countries. Another is to circumvent the rule of law at the international level (basically to weaken the UN even further). Bijan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VERY OT: mass installation on XBox
On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 06:23:01AM -0400, Antonio Rodriguez wrote: > Pure crap. Let me give you an example: You haven't paid property tax for > a while. Then your property can be taken away from you. Which means it > was never yours. You just had a licence to say it was yours. As soon as > you stopped paying the yearly fee for the license, the truth came out. 'Course, the only thing that legitimizes the concept of property ownership is the strong arm of Johnny Law. Property taxes are your "protection money"... Why should the gov't protect your 40 acres and a mule if you aren't willing to pay the cost? -- begin 664 .signature M
Re: Very OT: mass installation on XBox
On 0, Antonio Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >The issue is not the modification of the hardware, per se, but rather > >the data that can then be pirated after the modification is made. > >Therefore, the one alternative is to limit piracy. In order to do that, > >strict policing of data streams is necessary. > > > > > This is a logic conclusion only if you assume that you own the flow > of data. This way we will soon be policing what other people think, > because may be they are using our thoughts without paying us for > that. The whole problem boils down to the fact that we humans > believee that when we think something we own that thought. This > wrong perspective follows from a misunderstanding of what thoughts > are. We can not own thoughts the same way that we can not own the > air of the planet. However, we have already seen many who have > profitted from selling air. This point of view (of rejecting the > property of thoughts) is as defendable as the point of view of > accepting it. And it seems to be very close to the point in a > Debian/Linux mailing list. This is free software, GPL after all. Soon? Man, that's what intellectual property is all about (very nearly, anyway). The GPL does not say that nobody owns these thoughts. It is just as much a restrictive license as other licenses, its just that the restrictions are different. Instead of saying, 'You can't pass this software on. You must buy it from the source,' it says, 'You can't buy this software from the source. If you pass it on, you must make sure that the next person has the same rights you do.' The GPL is not a fundamentally different type of document from other licenses. Intellectual property rights in fact have nothing to do with the free/non-free debate. Intellectual property rights say that someone who does something has the right to reasonable profit from it, and the right to prevent other people from profiting from it. The free/non-free debate is more about consumer rights, and what rights you get when you lay down money for software. As for comparisons between thoughts and air, I'm not quite sure where you get this from, but it seems the same sort of messed-up alternative philosophy that's ended us up in this mess. When will people learn that you can't have freedom without real justice for everyone? And that justice for everyone can't be had unless you have an absolute standard of justice? > >So that is your choice: give up freedom to modify hardware, or submit > >all data moving in and out of your control to public scrutiny. Since the > >former is both distasteful and fundamentally impossible to enforce, the > >later is inevitable, IMHO. > > > > > Absolutely not. This can be only the point of view if we see the > universe as a huge shop full of merchandise. But this is far from > the way other people perceive surrounding reality. This is the sort of stuffed-up thinking that ends up with tyranny ruling all. Tom -- Tom Cook Information Technology Services, The University of Adelaide "Chaos Theory is a new theory invented by scientists panicked by the thought that the public were beginning to understand the old ones." - Mike Barfield Get my GPG public key: https://pinky.its.adelaide.edu.au/~tkcook/tom.cook-at-adelaide.edu.au msg05528/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Very OT: mass installation on XBox
On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:14:00 +0930 Tom Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Instead of saying, 'You can't pass this > software on. You must buy it from the source,' it says, 'You can't > buy this software from the source. If you pass it on, you must make > sure that the next person has the same rights you do.' The GPL is not > a fundamentally different type of document from other licenses. I don't recall anything in the GPL that indicates "You can't buy this software from the source". Perhaps you should read up on the GPL at the following link: http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html in particular: http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Very OT: mass installation on XBox
On 0, "Jamin W. Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:14:00 +0930 Tom Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Instead of saying, 'You can't pass this > > software on. You must buy it from the source,' it says, 'You can't > > buy this software from the source. If you pass it on, you must make > > sure that the next person has the same rights you do.' The GPL is not > > a fundamentally different type of document from other licenses. > > I don't recall anything in the GPL that indicates "You can't buy this > software from the source". Perhaps you should read up on the GPL at the > following link: > http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html > > in particular: > http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney I'm sorry, I don't know why I said that. I meant that you don't _have_ to buy it from the source. Tom -- Tom Cook Information Technology Services, The University of Adelaide Why are Fire Engines Red? They have four wheels and eight men; four plus eight is twelve. Twelve inches make a ruler; a ruler is Queen Elizabeth. Queen Elizabeth sails the seven seas; the seven seas have fish. The fish have fins; the Finns hate the Russians. The Russians are red; fire engines are always rushin'. So they're red. Get my GPG public key: https://pinky.its.adelaide.edu.au/~tkcook/tom.cook-at-adelaide.edu.au msg05657/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Very OT: mass installation on XBox
On Sun, 2002-10-06 at 09:53, Jamin W.Collins wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:14:00 +0930 Tom Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Instead of saying, 'You can't pass this > > software on. You must buy it from the source,' it says, 'You can't > > buy this software from the source. If you pass it on, you must make > > sure that the next person has the same rights you do.' The GPL is not > > a fundamentally different type of document from other licenses. > > I don't recall anything in the GPL that indicates "You can't buy this > software from the source". Perhaps you should read up on the GPL at the > following link: > http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html > > in particular: > http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/selling.html#ConfusingTerm Even though the FSF encourages one to engage in the free market, you don't really sell software-libre. "...we suggest it is better to avoid using the term ``selling software'' and choose some other wording instead. For example, you could say ``distributing free software for a fee''--that is unambiguous." -- ++ | Ron Johnson, Jr. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson | || | "they love our milk and honey, but preach about another| | way of living"| |Merle Haggard, "The Fighting Side Of Me"| ++ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
