Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
rowl...@cloud85.net >Let's press reset a little. >For reasons not directly tied to Debian, I'm no longer purchasing DVD >sets on any media. >I am still constrained by a low data cap. >My system installs *will* continue to use "--no-install-recommends": > 1. It conserves limited resource [i.e. data cap] > 2. It reduces workspace clutter. What constitutes "clutter" is strongly > influenced by resource constrained systems I used in 60's and 70's. > It is now largely an aesthetic judgement. That's fair enough - it's your call on your own systems, of course. But could you *please* at least in future check for missing recommends that might be causing issues before mailing debian-user to complain about them? It's easy enough to do, and saves wasting the time of everybody on the list when there's an obvious solution... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "We're the technical experts. We were hired so that management could ignore our recommendations and tell us how to do our jobs." -- Mike Andrews
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
Let's press reset a little. For reasons not directly tied to Debian, I'm no longer purchasing DVD sets on any media. I am still constrained by a low data cap. My system installs *will* continue to use "--no-install-recommends": 1. It conserves limited resource [i.e. data cap] 2. It reduces workspace clutter. What constitutes "clutter" is strongly influenced by resource constrained systems I used in 60's and 70's. It is now largely an aesthetic judgement. The time I spent using DVDs was worthwhile. I now have a good idea of how my system should look/feel and function. My procedure will be a text mode install using netinst.iso followed by a script using apt-get. I could use preseeding but will be more comfortable with a a script.
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 15:11:28 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 03/08/2022 12:49 PM, Brian wrote: > > On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 07:11:51 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" > > > components I have done: > > > > Low data caps always tug at the heartstrings, but avoiding Recommends: > > can be a recipe for disaster (for you or us)). > > HUH? ?? ??? ;/ ! !! !!! > How does avoiding "Recommends" on *MY* personal universe, affect you? Is that what you call an argument in response to my criticism? Your personal universe only comcerns me when it impinges on everyone else's normal universe. > > My recollection is that you use a set of purchased DVDs for the purpose > > of saving bandwidth. Hvae you lost them? > > I used purchased DVDs (frequently flash drives) as last resort. Last resort? Really? That's a new strategem. I'll provide links for the following quotes from some of your mails if I have to: Debian installs for the bandwidth limited (e.g. dialup) --- I install from purchased DVD sets as I am on dialup. Using ISO image of installer DVD as repository - How?- -- Due to bandwidth constraints [originally on dial-up, now just a low data cap] all but one of my installs have been from purchased DVD sets. Installing Stretch/Testing with absolute minimal bandwith useage I'd see the netinst ISO as Debian's flagship product. A stack of DVDs puts icing on the cake with a multitude of packages and very much reduced bandwidth usage. Problem attempting to use xorriso - Due to limited bandwidth I purchase complete sets of Debian install DVDs. Installing a MINIMAL Mate Desktop How? - As I have minimal bandwidth available I am installing from purchased DVD's... > > WARNING: Lateral thinking coming up :). > > > > > 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using > > > debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . > > > > No bandwidth used. > > *HUH* ? ?? ??? ???**6.23*10**23 > The first thing that ISO does is connect me to internet Installing the standard utilities does not require the internet. Using a netinst ISO does not require an internet connection. Pull yourself together :). > > > > > 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment > > > > You have a DVD with that on? > > Not!!! Never looked? > > > 3. apt-get install xinit > > > 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma > > > > xinit, xorg, gparted and synaptic are on DVD-1. > > But Who? has DVD1 ??? You have. > Try reading before responding. Any more naff advice to give? -- Brian.
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Mar 08, 2022, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Before I retired I spent decades in customer and engineering support.
> > Became familiar clashing desires and corner cases.
> > I wasn't looking at X needing a DM, but rather that if the DE {MATE in my
> > case} was going to be useful it had to start [preferably automatically].
>
> But you don't need a DM to start a session running MATE.
> [ You don't even need an X server installed, actually, since you could
> be running the whole DE remotely, tho I don't know how well this
> works nowadays. ]
Not very well, unfortunately. Used to use remote X servers all the
time.
It's passable for smaller applications, but there's a noticeable lag on
inputs.
--
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Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On 03/08/2022 03:10 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
Before I retired I spent decades in customer and engineering support.
Became familiar clashing desires and corner cases.
I wasn't looking at X needing a DM, but rather that if the DE {MATE in my
case} was going to be useful it had to start [preferably automatically].
But you don't need a DM to start a session running MATE.
[ You don't even need an X server installed, actually, since you could
be running the whole DE remotely, tho I don't know how well this
works nowadays. ]
*ROFL* !!!
In my world [snicker]
MATE is my only connection to somebody's concept of reality ;/ ;/
;/;/;/;/;/
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
On 03/08/2022 12:49 PM, Brian wrote: On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 07:11:51 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" components I have done: Low data caps always tug at the heartstrings, but avoiding Recommends: can be a recipe for disaster (for you or us)). HUH? ?? ??? ;/ ! !! !!! How does avoiding "Recommends" on *MY* personal universe, affect you? My recollection is that you use a set of purchased DVDs for the purpose of saving bandwidth. Hvae you lost them? I used purchased DVDs (frequently flash drives) as last resort. WARNING: Lateral thinking coming up :). 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . No bandwidth used. *HUH* ? ?? ??? ???**6.23*10**23 The first thing that ISO does is connect me to internet 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment You have a DVD with that on? Not!!! 3. apt-get install xinit 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma xinit, xorg, gparted and synaptic are on DVD-1. But Who? has DVD1 ??? Try reading before responding.
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On 03/08/2022 10:45 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 08:40:02AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
[...]
"apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2.
Does that demonstrate a dependency bug?
Most definitely not. X doesn't need the DM to run. Actually there are
folks out there that want to start up in console mode and start X only
on demand (I did that, for quite a while, FWIW).
Before I retired I spent decades in customer and engineering support.
Became familiar clashing desires and corner cases.
I wasn't looking at X needing a DM, but rather that if the DE {MATE in
my case} was going to be useful it had to start [preferably automatically].
Disabling recomends is not... recommended by default (I do, but then
I'm willing to cope with the ocassional fallout).
But I'm on the other side of the quandary.
For my use case, installing recommends degrades my user experience.
A goal of the Debian installer team has been that anyone of any
experience level &/or familiarity with Debian could just install then
compute. They succeeded!
I want to grok Debian's internals well enough to come up with a solution
*I* like ;/! But not be offensive to the rest of the world.
Cheers
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 07:11:51 -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: > As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" > components I have done: Low data caps always tug at the heartstrings, but avoiding Recommends: can be a recipe for disaster (for you or us)). My recollection is that you use a set of purchased DVDs for the purpose of saving bandwidth. Hvae you lost them? WARNING: Lateral thinking coming up :). > 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using >debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . No bandwidth used. > 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment You have a DVD with that on? > 3. apt-get install xinit > 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma xinit, xorg, gparted and synaptic are on DVD-1. -- Brian.
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue, 2022-03-08 at 15:54 +, Brian wrote: > Users who install a package with "--no-install-recommends owe it to > themselves to investigate the conssequences *prior* to committing to > the action. Involving a communuty in the aftermath is little short > of thoughtlessness and lack of preparation. > > What is demonstrated is not a "dependency bug" but an unwillingness > to learn from the past and plan for the future. > I totally agree. Somehow after all these years Richard Owlett hasn't ended up in my kill file, but this is the final straw. -- Tixy
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 08:40:02AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. > Does that demonstrate a dependency bug? Most definitely not. X doesn't need the DM to run. Actually there are folks out there that want to start up in console mode and start X only on demand (I did that, for quite a while, FWIW). Disabling recomends is not... recommended by default (I do, but then I'm willing to cope with the ocassional fallout). Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 09:06:27 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 08:40:02 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: [..] > > "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. > > Does that demonstrate a dependency bug? > > Last paragraph of: > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/04/msg01009.html I will quote that paragraph so that the OP will have it easily available to consult throughout this thread: BTW I agree with Georgios: if you don't install the "Recommends", you may find that you don't get the functionality you expect. The only thing guaranteed by installing the "Depends" is that all the function calls will point at some runnable code rather than just pointing into thin air. And I will add: Users who install a package with "--no-install-recommends owe it to themselves to investigate the conssequences *prior* to committing to the action. Involving a communuty in the aftermath is little short of thoughtlessness and lack of preparation. What is demonstrated is not a "dependency bug" but an unwillingness to learn from the past and plan for the future. -- Brian.
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
On 2022-03-08 15:50 UTC+0100, Richard Owlett wrote: > I have SeaMonkey launched from "Internet" sub-menu of "Applications" > menu. IIRC it was only a couple of mouse clicks to get it there. If you don't have some Debian/Snap/Flatpak package from some source available, I know no other way to integrate it into the menu, than creating a .desktop file manually (which is not that hard). Last time I used SeaMonkey, it didn't have any installer on Linux, exactly like it's sibbling FireFox. -- http://www.cb-fraggle.de
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 08:40:02 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 03/08/2022 07:32 AM, Richmond wrote: > > Richard Owlett writes: > > > > > As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" > > > components I have done: > > > 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using > > > debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . > > > 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment > > > 3. apt-get install xinit > > > 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma > > > > > > Between those steps were searches/fixes for some things that didn't > > > run as expected. > > > > > > Current questions/problems include: > > > 1. Why do I have to manually run startx at each boot? > > > 2. Although menu entries for gparted and pluma appear as expected, there > > > appears to be no way to launch synaptic. > > > 3. Although connected to internet [i.e. apt-get runs correctly], the > > > appropriate icon does not appear on MATE's taskbar. > > > 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear > > > on appropriate Applications sub-menu. > > > > > > I've done it all before but can't find my references. > > > Help please. > > > TIA > > > > 1. Probably you don't have a display manager. Mate uses light display > > manager, and it is configured here: > > > > /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service > > > > But there is a script or procedure for configuring it. Probably just > > install lightdm. > > "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. > Does that demonstrate a dependency bug? Last paragraph of: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/04/msg01009.html Cheers, David.
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
On 03/08/2022 08:37 AM, Christian Britz wrote: On 2022-03-08 14:11 UTC+0100, Richard Owlett wrote: 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear on appropriate Applications sub-menu. As there is no Debian package for SeaMonkey, you will probably extract the binaries from seamonkey-project.org somewhere. To make it appear in the applications menu, you will have to create a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications. For reference, this is what my firefox.desktop file looks like: [Desktop Entry] Name=Firefox Comment=Web Browser Exec=/opt/firefox/firefox %u Terminal=false Type=Application Icon=/opt/firefox/browser/chrome/icons/default/default128.png Categories=Network;WebBrowser; MimeType=text/html;text/xml;application/xhtml+xml;application/xml;application/vnd.mozilla.xul+xml;application/rss+xml;application/rdf+xml;image/gif;image/jpeg;image/png;x-scheme-handler/http;x-scheme-handler/https; StartupNotify=true Actions=Private; [Desktop Action Private] Exec=/opt/firefox/firefox --private-window %u Name=Open in private mode You should create a similar seamonkey.desktop file. HTH, Christian I have SeaMonkey launched from "Internet" sub-menu of "Applications" menu. IIRC it was only a couple of mouse clicks to get it there.
Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On 03/08/2022 07:32 AM, Richmond wrote: Richard Owlett writes: As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" components I have done: 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment 3. apt-get install xinit 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma Between those steps were searches/fixes for some things that didn't run as expected. Current questions/problems include: 1. Why do I have to manually run startx at each boot? 2. Although menu entries for gparted and pluma appear as expected, there appears to be no way to launch synaptic. 3. Although connected to internet [i.e. apt-get runs correctly], the appropriate icon does not appear on MATE's taskbar. 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear on appropriate Applications sub-menu. I've done it all before but can't find my references. Help please. TIA 1. Probably you don't have a display manager. Mate uses light display manager, and it is configured here: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service But there is a script or procedure for configuring it. Probably just install lightdm. "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. Does that demonstrate a dependency bug?
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
On 2022-03-08 14:11 UTC+0100, Richard Owlett wrote: > 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear > on appropriate Applications sub-menu. As there is no Debian package for SeaMonkey, you will probably extract the binaries from seamonkey-project.org somewhere. To make it appear in the applications menu, you will have to create a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications. For reference, this is what my firefox.desktop file looks like: [Desktop Entry] Name=Firefox Comment=Web Browser Exec=/opt/firefox/firefox %u Terminal=false Type=Application Icon=/opt/firefox/browser/chrome/icons/default/default128.png Categories=Network;WebBrowser; MimeType=text/html;text/xml;application/xhtml+xml;application/xml;application/vnd.mozilla.xul+xml;application/rss+xml;application/rdf+xml;image/gif;image/jpeg;image/png;x-scheme-handler/http;x-scheme-handler/https; StartupNotify=true Actions=Private; [Desktop Action Private] Exec=/opt/firefox/firefox --private-window %u Name=Open in private mode You should create a similar seamonkey.desktop file. HTH, Christian -- http://www.cb-fraggle.de
Re: Problems with custom install of MATE
Richard Owlett writes: > As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" > components I have done: > 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using >debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . > 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment > 3. apt-get install xinit > 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma > > Between those steps were searches/fixes for some things that didn't > run as expected. > > Current questions/problems include: > 1. Why do I have to manually run startx at each boot? > 2. Although menu entries for gparted and pluma appear as expected, there >appears to be no way to launch synaptic. > 3. Although connected to internet [i.e. apt-get runs correctly], the >appropriate icon does not appear on MATE's taskbar. > 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear >on appropriate Applications sub-menu. > > I've done it all before but can't find my references. > Help please. > TIA 1. Probably you don't have a display manager. Mate uses light display manager, and it is configured here: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service But there is a script or procedure for configuring it. Probably just install lightdm.
Problems with custom install of MATE
As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" components I have done: 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment 3. apt-get install xinit 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma Between those steps were searches/fixes for some things that didn't run as expected. Current questions/problems include: 1. Why do I have to manually run startx at each boot? 2. Although menu entries for gparted and pluma appear as expected, there appears to be no way to launch synaptic. 3. Although connected to internet [i.e. apt-get runs correctly], the appropriate icon does not appear on MATE's taskbar. 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear on appropriate Applications sub-menu. I've done it all before but can't find my references. Help please. TIA
