Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 17 April 2017 12:28:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:

> Ron Bales:
> > Yeah just hope'n someone could get a line in
>
> This is an English users list, please translate hope'n for us dear!
>
> Old timers ganging up against the newbie is the oldest trick on the
> book to avoid responding to criticism.

Depends.  The new bee, refusing to acknowledge that the old timer has 
been there, done that, and might have learned something from that 
experience. We can try to teach, and do from time to time, but we've 
learned from experience that it is up to the listener to learn.  Thats 
your choice of course.

Ric had a sig for years that applies here I believe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 17 April 2017 11:32:14 Ric Moore wrote:

> On 04/17/2017 11:04 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
> > L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :
> >> Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the
> >> Borg
> >
> > You realize Debian is not a person, right?
>
> Anyone remember Karl?? :)  Ric

Yes, too well Ric.  Same fix?  How are you doing these days?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[GiaThnYgeia]

Lisi Reisz:
> You do realise that Ron is the OP of this thread, and presumably even more 
> new 
> that yourself?

Are you luring me down another irrelevant to the issue path?
If you did not notice, instead of (me) being a smart-rear-end I already
responded specifically to the OP with the 2 packages 8168-9 that relate
to his generalized question of 8111*.  If you are correcting me about my
explanation of non-free "firmware" and lack of specificity I can
understand, but fail to see it.

Can you explain to all of us what is your specific problem with me, as
you are avoiding the issue itself and trying to find a different tangent
to be right about.

I don't know what is your definition of organization, in response to
your comment

>  the delusion that there is an organisation called "Debian"

Correct me if I am wrong, weren't you the one sending me the links for
the constitution and hierarchy?  That constitutes a hierarchical
organization.  Does a community have a hierarchy, not without a communal
constitution it doesn't.  (hence my signature of who died and made you
boss).

Whether it can, or will not, respond seems to be exactly what I was
explaining to the OP.  Being irresponsive does not make the fact, that
it is an organization, my illusion.  Nor am I saying I truly expect it
to respond to me or anyone.  The call is open (and free) to respond to
criticism "with logical arguments" which I am willing to recognize and
accept if they existed.  Otherwise there is no organization or community
that will moderate the criticism.  It is already public domain.

> Lisi

>This is one of those (few) times when it is a pity that this list
>isn't moderated.

Purely illogical sequence!  You are not making sense, you are avoiding
the issue, and desperately beg to have me respond to your requests to
shut up.  I don't know what to do.  Help me.

The easiest way to have someone respond when they don't care to continue
something is to bring up out of context, false, and illogical comments
about them.  I promise to be quiet if you stop this out of context
illogical commenting.  You have not added 1cent in the issue.

I am getting so desperate for any responses I am imagining some of my
own.  ie..

(it takes so much effort and workhours to edit open and free firmware
that exist and work in Deb8 that it is not worth the little demand for
them, so they are dropped in Deb9.  But if NVIDIA gets their non-free
code public tomorrow for their latest supergadget for gamers that work
is weel worth the while to be available in Debian 9 and Sid.)

That would have been a logical argument and response to the criticism.
IF IT WERE TRUE!

Or, someone of those for 2 decade experts in Debian could have implied
(that it is easy and possible to just lock the firmware from Jessie to
Stretch and modify its source to make it run yourself, or something!)
Which would have defeated the previous argument if it were true!

But then there is Joe's response that I interpret as 

naahhh..  I will not do you that favor to interpret here!


Peace my brothers and sisters ...


-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Curt]

On 2017-04-17, GiaThnYgeia  wrote:
> Nicolas George:
>> L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :
>>> Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg
>> 
>> You realize Debian is not a person, right?
>
> You realize GiaThnYgeia is not a person either, right?
>

Whatever it is, it's a blowhard.

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 17/04/2017 à 18:51, Lisi Reisz a écrit :


The reason that Debian does not include the drivers for RTL8111 in whichever
installer you used (you do not say which it was) will be that RTL8111
requires a non-free driver and Debian includes only free software by default.


Don't you mean "firmware" instead of "driver" ?

The Debian installer includes a free driver for some variants of the the 
RTL8111/RTL8168, called r8169. This driver is included in the mainline 
kernel. It may require non-free firmwares for some supported devices, 
but this does not prevent inclusion of the *driver* in the main 
distribution and the installer.

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 17 April 2017 17:28:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
> Ron Bales:
> > Yeah just hope'n someone could get a line in
>
> This is an English users list, please translate hope'n for us dear!
>
> Old timers ganging up against the newbie is the oldest trick on the book
> to avoid responding to criticism.

You do realise that Ron is the OP of this thread, and presumably even more new 
that yourself?

Lisi

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 17 April 2017 17:25:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote:
>  Political
> responsibility lies on the organization to respond to criticism or allow
> it to rest as valid and unanswered.

You seem to labour under the delusion that there is an organisation 
called "Debian", which could, if it wished, respond to you.  Debian consists 
in and comprises its community.  Part of that community is trying, very 
unsuccessfully, to communicate with you, and has responded frequently.  You 
choose to discount those responses.  That is your prerogative.  But you are 
getting responses.

You also seem to labour under the delusion that ad hominem attack somehow 
proves your point.

This is one of those (few) times when it is a pity that this list isn't 
moderated.

Lisi

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 16 April 2017 15:12:14 Ron Bales wrote:
> Why do you not include the drivers for RTL8111 I have not used Mint for
> years because the network never worked I found the drivers and installed
> them but way to much trouble I was getting ready to give up for good and
> found the instructions to install. The network works fine in Ubuntu?

The reason that Debian does not include the drivers for RTL8111 in whichever 
installer you used (you do not say which it was) will be that RTL8111 
requires a non-free driver and Debian includes only free software by default.  
There are ways round this, but you don't give enough information.

Many other distributions do include some non-free firmware by default.

As has been pointed out, Debian is neither a person, nor an organisation.

HTH
Lisi

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Nicolas George]

L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :
> You realize GiaThnYgeia is not a person either, right?

Yes, but frankly I do not care. *PLONK*

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[GiaThnYgeia]

Ron Bales:
> Yeah just hope'n someone could get a line in

This is an English users list, please translate hope'n for us dear!

Old timers ganging up against the newbie is the oldest trick on the book
to avoid responding to criticism.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[GiaThnYgeia]

Nicolas George:
> L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :
>> Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg
> 
> You realize Debian is not a person, right?

You realize GiaThnYgeia is not a person either, right?

I do relaize that there may be practical/financial barriers for Debian
not to have official spokespeople speaking for Debian and as Debian, but
this reality should not dismiss any and all criticism.  Political
responsibility lies on the organization to respond to criticism or allow
it to rest as valid and unanswered.  Of course you, as an outsider,
anyone, can respond to criticism and defeat it with a better argument.
In such an occasion this criticism is dismissed as stronger
counterarguments now exist.

This is the very fundamental principle of a "free" society.  It is the
fundation of the "non-free" society to disrupt any and all arguments,
dismiss criticism, and enforce silence by force.

In the case of Lisi's efforts, trying to deviate from a real issue and
criticism and derail the whole critical argument, as the result of an
irrelevant fault, is irrelevant itself to the criticism.  It does not
matter if Lisi heard of Debian yesterday or is the original writer of
unix/linux/debian.  The response was political and illogical, and a
cheap trick to deviate from an issue.

Criticism when is constructive it is intended to improve on the existing
not to undermine it or hurt it.  Only when Debian can not be undermined
by any criticism and all of it is answered by logical arguments will we
be talking of not just a good system, but the best.

And despite which of us here says what I just said, we, as GiaThnYgeia,
stand behind this argument.

PS  The reference to the Borg if perceived as a negative
characterization it would be based on your (plural) bias and perception.
 Beyond the debate of good and evil, what's wrong with the Borg anyway?
Just because the Evil Empire turned against it as a whole does not make
the Borg bad! ;)

The rest of yas, why don't you chill out a bit, unless you are looking
for a reaction to black-list me off "your" list.  If you can't respond
to criticism just be quiet then!  If you feel Debian is better off
without me just argue that point and if you are right I promise to
remain silent, which is the same as reading the list off of its archive.

PS2  If you missed what the point of criticism was let me know and I
will repeat.  Just snipping text off of a response (and context) will
not make it go away.

-- 
 "The most violent element in society is ignorance" rEG

"Who died and made you the superuser?"  Brooklinux

"keep rocking in the non-free world" Neilznotyoung

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Ron Bales]

Yeah just hope'n someone could get a line in


On 4/17/2017 10:04 AM, Nicolas George wrote:

L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :

Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg

You realize Debian is not a person, right?

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Ric Moore]

On 04/17/2017 11:04 AM, Nicolas George wrote:

L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :

Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg


You realize Debian is not a person, right?


Anyone remember Karl?? :)  Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Nicolas George]

L'octidi 28 germinal, an CCXXV, GiaThnYgeia a écrit :
> Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg

You realize Debian is not a person, right?

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Ric Moore]

On 04/17/2017 11:01 AM, GiaThnYgeia wrote:


My mistakes, Lizi, are an irrelevant issue to this observation but no
matter what you say and I say neither is speaking as Debian.  The
hypocritical BORG has no voice on the matter!


No, you are not on the same level of Lizi. Lizi has been a faithful 
participant and respondent for years here, full of knowledge and good 
advice. Lizi is representative of the Debian way, admired by many. You 
are recent to this list and noisy. Now you are a top-poster. I have you 
kill-filed now. Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[GiaThnYgeia]

Don't expect "Debian" to respond to you, it is like talking to the Borg
Individuals will speak of Debian, they may be inside or outside Debian,
but Debian only speaks through official directives in its one and only
web page.  No dialog, no comments, no responses.  It is like planning to
have coffee with the Borg!  If anyone speaks as Debian don't trust what
he/she says as anyone else will say that is her/his personal opinion.
The BORG!

Ctrl-F 811

Ron Bales:
> Why do you not include the drivers for RTL8111 I have not used Mint for
> years because the network never worked I found the drivers and installed
> them but way to much trouble I was getting ready to give up for good and
> found the instructions to install. The network works fine in Ubuntu?
> 

Here is what the Borg says:

R8168-dkms
dkms source for the r8168 network driver

r8168 is the Linux device driver released for RealTek RTL8111B/RTL8168B,
RTL8111/RTL8168, RTL8111C/RTL8111CP/RTL8111D(L),
RTL8168C/RTL8111DP/RTL8111E,
RTL8168E/RTL8111F/RTL8411, RTL8111G/RTL8111GUS/RTL8411B(N), RTL8118AS
Gigabit Ethernet controllers with PCI-Express interface.

This driver should only be used for devices not yet supported by the
in-kernel driver r8169. Please see the README.Debian for instructions how
to report bugs against r8169 that made it necessary to use r8168-dkms.

Installation of the r8168-dkms package will disable the in-kernel r8169
module. To re-enable r8169, the r8168-dkms package must be purged.

This package provides the dkms source code for the r8168 kernel modules.
Kernel source or headers are required to compile these modules.
--



You seem to have barked up the wrong tree:




-
firmware-realtek is a bit different:

Binary firmware for Realtek wired/wifi/BT adapters

This package contains the binary firmware for Realtek Ethernet, wifi and
Bluetooth adapters supported by various drivers.

Contents:
 * Realtek RTL8192E boot code (RTL8192E/boot.img)
 * Realtek RTL8192E init data (RTL8192E/data.img)
 * Realtek RTL8192E main code (RTL8192E/main.img)
 * Realtek RTL8192EE Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8192ee_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8812AE Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8812ae_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8761A Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8761a_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8821A Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8821a_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192EU Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8192eu_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8723AU rev A Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8723a_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8723BU rev B Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8723b_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8822B Bluetooth config (rtl_bt/rtl8822b_config.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8822B Bluetooth firmware (rtl_bt/rtl8822b_fw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8105E-1 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8105e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8106E-1 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8106e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8106E-2 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8106e-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8107E-1 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8107e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8107E-2 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8107e-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8111D-1/RTL8168D-1 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168d-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8111D-2/RTL8168D-2 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168d-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168E-1 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168E-2 firmware (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168E-3 firmware, version 0.0.4 (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168F-1 firmware, version 0.0.5 (rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168F-2 firmware, version 0.0.4 (rtl_nic/rtl8168f-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168G-1 firmware, version 0.0.3 (rtl_nic/rtl8168g-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168G-2 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8168g-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168G-3 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8168g-3.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168H-1 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8168h-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8168H-2 firmware, version 0.0.2 (rtl_nic/rtl8168h-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8402-1 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8402-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8411-1 firmware, version 0.0.3 (rtl_nic/rtl8411-1.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8411-2 firmware, version 0.0.1 (rtl_nic/rtl8411-2.fw)
 * Realtek RTL8188EE firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8188efw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8188EU firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8188eufw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CE/RTL8188CE firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192cfw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CE/RTL8188CE B-cut firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cfwU_B.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8188CE A-cut firmware, version 4.816.2011
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cfwU.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU UMC A-cut firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw_A.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU UMC B-cut firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw_B.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU TMSC firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw_TMSC.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192CU/RTL8188CU fallback firmware
   (rtlwifi/rtl8192cufw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192DE firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192defw.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192EE wifi firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192eefw.bin)
 * Realtek RTl8192EU firmware (rtlwifi/rtl8192eu_nic.bin)
 * Realtek RTL8192SE/RTL8191SE firmware, version 4.8

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 4/16/17, Mark Fletcher  wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 09:12:14AM -0500, Ron Bales wrote:
>> Why do you not include the drivers for RTL8111 I have not used Mint for
>> years because the network never worked I found the drivers and installed
>> them but way to much trouble I was getting ready to give up for good and
>> found the instructions to install. The network works fine in Ubuntu?


I can't speak for that specifically, but perhaps it's because it's
non-free'ly available? If so, that would be one reason it's not
included in a standard Debian package. Other distributions handle
those cases differently, and that would be why it would, yes, indeed,
be found instantly available even in the most basic of installs.


> To whom are you addressing this question?

:)

Is there maybe a definitive (itemized) list of what's free and not? If
it's non-free, this isn't a bug so that's off the checklist. Next
there are the instances where things *are* free, but use cases have
not occurred such that an omission was apparent..

Or something like that... there. :)

Never mind (sort of) because I next got the idea to attempt an
"rtl8111 debian firmware" Internet search. That landed this
"firmware-realtek" package:

https://packages.debian.org/jessie/firmware-realtek

Clicking that red "non-free" word brought this:

https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-non-free

+ QUOTED TEXT +

2.2.3 The non-free archive area

The non-free archive area contains supplemental packages intended to
work with the Debian distribution that do not comply with the DFSG
[Debian Free Software Guidelines] or have other problems that make
their distribution problematic. They may not comply with all of the
policy requirements in this manual due to restrictions on
modifications or other limitations.

Packages must be placed in non-free if they are not compliant with the
DFSG or are encumbered by patents or other legal issues that make
their distribution problematic.

In addition, the packages in non-free

* must not be so buggy that we refuse to support them, and

* must meet all policy requirements presented in this manual that it
is possible for them to meet. [5]

Referenced Footnote #5: "It is possible that there are policy
requirements which the package is unable to meet, for example, if the
source is unavailable. These situations will need to be handled on a
case-by-case basis."

+ END QUOTED TEXT +

That would be why it takes extra steps to get an RTL8111 driver
functional. It turns out to in fact be about its relationship to
Debian's long standing, explicitly expressed policy regarding that
kind of thing

Cindy :)

-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* hoppity-hop-hop-hop! *

Re: RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Mark Fletcher]

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 09:12:14AM -0500, Ron Bales wrote:
> Why do you not include the drivers for RTL8111 I have not used Mint for
> years because the network never worked I found the drivers and installed
> them but way to much trouble I was getting ready to give up for good and
> found the instructions to install. The network works fine in Ubuntu?
> 

To whom are you addressing this question?

Mark

RTL8111 Networking Drivers

[Ron Bales]

Why do you not include the drivers for RTL8111 I have not used Mint for 
years because the network never worked I found the drivers and installed 
them but way to much trouble I was getting ready to give up for good and 
found the instructions to install. The network works fine in Ubuntu?