Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
'dc wrote:' Enough is enough. Where is your announcement of candidacy for project leader? Elections will be held soon ... I want to see your reasoned proposals for a better direction for the project. Too much of what you write is anti-Bruce and it's hard for me to tell exactly what solution you feel will set things straight. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | Linux/Internet Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Design Science Revolutionary http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf | Explorer in Universe ftp://ftp.netaxs.com/people/cjf | Dare to be Naive -- Bucky Fuller -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
Leave Dave alone, he's already abandoned this argument. Bruce -- Can you get your operating system fixed when you need it? Linux - the supportable operating system. http://www.debian.org/support.html Bruce Perens K6BP [EMAIL PROTECTED] NEW PHONE NUMBER: 510-620-3502 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sun, 26 Oct 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many responders have complained about the cross posting of dc's complaints. Why, then, do they post their responses to multiple debian lists? We did that so that DC would get it X times that there are many people disagree with him :). On the serious note: We did it because some people who do not subscribe to all the groups might miss our response if we send it to one group. The whole thing should have been kept in debian-dissent but I guess DC felt it was of such great importance that it needed to be heared by everyone. // Daniel J. Mashao -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ee.uct.ac.za/~daniel // -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
Enough is enough. It is time for Bruce Perens to step down form the leadership position, and an interim leader take his place until a new leader can be chosen at the formal election. I state the following facts as reasons: blah, blah, blah...i don't know, i've been using Debian for about 6 months and it's really excellent. Bruce has personally emailed me on several different issues. Since I'm not terribly well-versed in Un*x (i'm learning all the time, thanks more than anything to people like whom i've found on this list, Bruce included), I really appreciate the personal attention. What do all you package maintainers think of Bruce? What about all you other users? What are (perhaps most important, perhaps not...) the opinions of the people for whom this distribution is named, Deb Ian? Just my 2 cents... matty -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
dc wrote: Enough is enough. Why you cc to so many lists??? You thought that people only subscribed one and only one of the lists. How many lists do we have? You have not done enough yet. You have not sent to all lists. Do it and bother anyone and email flooding their accounts. And yes I did because I reply to all. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
Dave, I can appreciate the fact that you don't like Bruce's handling of the project. I do like the job that Bruce is doing, however. I'll stick with Bruce until the normal time for succession comes, and probably even after that. But please, by all means continue with your plan to release an alternate distribution. It should be an interesting product. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, dc wrote: Enough is enough. yes. enough is enough. go away and quit your whining. i, for one, am getting really sick and tired of seeing your personal attacks against bruce being splashed all over the debian lists. what are you trying to do? destroy debian with your constant whinging and flaming over stupid paranoid crap? craig -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
RE: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, George Bonser wrote: On 25-Oct-97 dc wrote: Enough is enough. I disagree. I too disagree. I think there are probably more people who disagree than agree. On the otherhand perhaps a distribution like Debian needs to have a registered list of users who wants to vote on policy matters. There are enough phyco's out there to make sure that groups such Debian do not succeed. The call in itself is interesting because it brings to attention the potential for disruption that is inherent in the net. Now turning to another issue. I think what Bruce did concerning Debian CDs is understandable and rather difficult given the interest of commercial companies. Perhaps after a release number has been made further fixes should go into the release-number-updates dir as with bo. // Daniel J. Mashao -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ee.uct.ac.za/~daniel // -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Dale Scheetz wrote: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, dc wrote: If Bruce really cares about the free and open future of the Debian Project, he will cede his position immediately. Much (private) discussion has gone on about forming a new distribution based on how the old Debian used to be. This is my last attempt at my inclusion and 'fixing' the Debian distribution, and if it does not succeed I (and others with discontent) will turn my efforts to that. Go for it! And all your alternate personalities can go with you as well. This should make for a really cozey team ;-) If DC feels he wants to form a new distribution, then I too would encourage him to go for it. I think DC thinks it it easy to run a large group like Debian. His experience will be worthwhile. My feeling is that most of us using the Debian distribution are thankful for what Bruce and many others have done. To Bruce and other developers I have this to say to you guys - Take heart.. Out of 30,000 (just a pure speculative guess) and maybe more people who use Debian distribution how many of them have other motives than a smooth running of Debian?. On the otherhand I am glad we have various Linux distributions with different organizational structures. If one is unsatisfied with one they can start their own distributions or join other guys. Nobody is going to get everything they want. To DC Once you get your own distribution (take all those guys in debian-dissent too :) ), let me know how many packages you have and how many people care enough to use your distributions. And also let me know when some nuts wants to do something that is not in the interest of your distribution - how you will respond - Good luck // Daniel J. Mashao -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ee.uct.ac.za/~daniel // -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
RE: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On 26-Oct-97 Daniel J. Mashao wrote: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, George Bonser wrote: On 25-Oct-97 dc wrote: Enough is enough. I disagree. I too disagree. I think there are probably more people who disagree than agree. Yeah, by ~20 to 1 so far. I'd felt disinclined to contribute to this inane thread, but seeing a post that does less than dismiss this idiocy out of hand, prompts me to point out that the challenger (who hides behind a psuedonym BTW) doesn't point to his list of contributions to the project, but instead simply bitchs about stuff in which he demonstrates minimal understanding and declines to propose any solution other than removal of one of the projects demonstrably productive resources. On the otherhand perhaps a distribution like Debian needs to have a registered list of users who wants to vote on policy matters. There are enough phyco's out there to make sure that groups such Debian do not succeed. What's a phyco? And why should users get to vote on policy? I think contributors should be the only parties with a right to any input. The call in itself is interesting because it brings to attention the potential for disruption that is inherent in the net. Especially for disruption by the noisy and non-contributing few! Now turning to another issue. I think what Bruce did concerning Debian CDs is understandable and rather difficult given the interest of commercial companies. Perhaps after a release number has been made further fixes should go into the release-number-updates dir as with bo. Seems reasonable to me. // Daniel J. Mashao -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ee.uct.ac.za/~daniel // -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . - Ralph Winslow [EMAIL PROTECTED] The IQ of the group is that of the member whose IQ is lowest divided by the number of members. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
Civ Kevin F. Havener wrote: Dave, I can appreciate the fact that you don't like Bruce's handling of the project. I do like the job that Bruce is doing, however. I'll stick with Bruce until the normal time for succession comes, and probably even after that. But please, by all means continue with your plan to release an alternate distribution. It should be an interesting product. I absolutely feel the urge to shout my me too. I agree with every word Kevin wrote (and even with those between the lines). Sorry to everybody for the BAD crosspost: I was obliged. Fabrizio -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] | Pluto Leader - Debian Developer Happy Debian 1.3.1 User - vi-holic | 6F7267F5 fingerprint 57 16 C4 ED C9 86 40 7B 1A 69 A1 66 EC FB D2 5E Just because Red Hat do it doesn't mean it's a good idea. [Ian J.] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
I strongly disagreed with Bruce's decision regarding the version/revision numbers. This is my PERSONAL OPINION; clearly many others, including Bruce, agree with his decision. This difference of opinion in no way justifies removing Bruce as president. (I don't believe project leader is an official office.) Bruce has made many wise decisions, and has contributed an enormous amount of his resources and time to Debian. When dc first began his profane and obscene (and misspelled) personal attacks, Bruce displayed far more patience and restraint than could reasonably be expected of anyone. Many responders have complained about the cross posting of dc's complaints. Why, then, do they post their responses to multiple debian lists? Bob -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
Enough is enough... All: IMHO Bruce is doing a fine job. It will be difficult to replace him, particularly so after the acrimony. David - LINUX: the FREE 32 bit OS for [3456]86 PC's available NOW! David B Teague | User interface copyrights software patents make [EMAIL PROTECTED] | programing a dangerous business. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
two people throwing with mug to each other, but one of them complains about the other throwing mug. please be quiet david. i'm not a member of the bruce fan club, and i'm not as blind as some other developers, but this time bruce is right. stop flameing him, stop your mini revolution. we will have a timeline for selecting a new leader, and this timeline is ok for everybody. bruce : do what ever you think is necessary. you have my full support. andreas -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
RE: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On 25-Oct-97 dc wrote: Enough is enough. I disagree. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, dc wrote: Enough is enough. So that one might know who you are, what is your name, or have you always just gone by dc? ...RickM... -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Oct 25, dc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is time for Bruce Perens to step down form the leadership position, and an interim leader take his place until a new leader can be chosen at the formal election. I disagree. I was going to try to answer point-by-point, but I realized that I've skipped enough threads containing Dave Cinege e-mails that I really can't honestly say I *know* as *fact* what has been going on between Dave and Bruce. I will say that as multi-year observer and member of Debian, I've been generally happy with how Bruce has handled things (and Ian M. before that). If I wasn't, I would have quit. I've not always agreed, but that's part of being a member of a large group: you're not always going to get your way. Observation of various volunteer groups leads me to conclude that any group that doesn't have a leader with final authority is going to eventually turn into a large noise generation apparatus, incapable of producing any coherent product. If one disagrees with that leader, then one leaves. Sadly, I can't bring myself to send this without including few inflamatory remarks. I'm sure that Dave will interpet them as syncophant groveling to Bruce; but maybe Dave'll see that Bruce has enough syncophant grovelers that he'll give up and go away. Again, one can only infer bad intentions by his lack of response. One can also infer that Bruce is tired of wasting his time responding to you, because you seem to have an agenda that appears to have no relationship to reality or what most of the other contributing members of Debian want. Bruce has stated he owns this project, and has taken it upon himself who he will allow and not allow to participate in it. (Myself being one of those who is banished) Because you didn't contribute anything accept noise and dissent. I've yet to see Bruce refuse to allow someone to work on Debian, who actually had something to contribute. If Bruce really cares about the free and open future of the Debian Project, he will cede his position immediately. Much (private) discussion has gone on about forming a new distribution based on how the old Debian used to be. The way the old Debian used to be, for those of use who were actually there, was that a group of technically compentent people discussed a topic, came to conclusion (possibly unanimous, often not), and proceeded. Those who lost an argument accepted the decision and went on: they didn't whine about it forever. What we have now is a successful group that draws people who can't stand a successful group that doesn't meet their very particular standards. This is my last attempt at my inclusion and 'fixing' the Debian distribution, and if it does not succeed I (and others with discontent) will turn my efforts to that. The Debian distribution doesn't need 'fixing', and I really hope that you keep your promise about this being the last time. Bruce: Don't back down to this paranoid jerk. Just hope he goes away. Steve Greenland -- The Mole - I think, therefore I scream Gee... these guys really ARE impervious! [The Badger vs. demon bike gangs from Hell. Guess who wins?] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:07:31 -0500 (CDT), Jesse Goldman wrote: On 25-Oct-97 dc wrote: Enough is enough. I'd also like to take exception to the above statement. I don't think I've ever been involved in a non-technical discussion on this list but I think it's necessary, in this case, for those of us who subscribe and take an interest in the Debian project to comment at this point. I believe that current Debian policy, as put forward by Bruce Perens and others is intelligent, reasonable, and consistent with the aims of free software development in general. But it is not being followed. That's the point. If you wish to contribute to a project which is attempting to help a large group of people at little cost to you, the end user, please do so. I am not allowed. Bruce has made this clear. Any work I do will be rejected. I've stated this in my call for removal. You should have read it in it's enirty before responding. Please do *not* send disparaging (not to mention ridiculous and badly thought out) posts to the leadership of SPI on public mailing lists. There's no question that this will anger dedicated and talented people and cause them to remove their support from the project which will hurt *everyone*, including you Dave. After all, someone with technical expertise and *real interest* in the Debian project has to *run* the project. Who's going to do that, you? I don't think so. I'm not interested in arguing about this...we been throught this all before. I haven't put forth my opinons on how *I* feel the project should be run, only what the *Bruce* has done and is doing. If you feel I've been dishonest, then say so. I'll be more then happy to repost Bruces own words on these topics (the censoring you can see for yourself as I'm sure this email account will be digested within the day.) If you and the majority of the project think these things are A-OK then I am gone. Just please make it clear to everyone else involved where everything really stands, and stop the misrepesentation and excuses. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
RE: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On 25-Oct-97 dc wrote: Enough is enough. -- cut -- I, like most Debin users, think Bruce is doing very fine job. I would hate to see Bruce or anyother developers quit because of the few who don't appreciate the amount of time and the effort the developers freely give to make Debian what it is today. Which is not bad at all: so many packages that it takes forever to pick and choose:), a book, many online docs, online bug tracking system, magazine article and cd-rom, cheap cd-roms, and so on. Thanks to all the developers, David -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:57:18 -0500, Steve Greenland wrote: Because you didn't contribute anything accept noise and dissent. I've yet to see Bruce refuse to allow someone to work on Debian, who actually had something to contribute. From Ian to me, and Bruces interjection 2 days ago: -- On Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:33 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ian Jackson) You might also find that becoming a developer would enhance your credibility. There's a little trust issue standing in the way of that, I fear. -- I have Bruces previous posts saying he would not allow my work as well as his post from months back to myself and Paul Wade saying he didn't need us anymore in his project. I can post them if people wish. I'm not going to get into arguing all this. It's happening and you're free to deny it if you can't deal with it. Bruce: Don't back down to this paranoid jerk. Just hope he goes away. Obivouly you've gone into this with an open mind. As usual Bruce couldn't possibliy do anything wrong. You are the third guy to call me paraniod yet I am staring at Bruces various posts and emails on this from months back, so I know what I'm saying is true. Unfortunaty you find it most important to attack me then admit to what is actually happening. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, dc wrote: much dreck deleted If Bruce really cares about the free and open future of the Debian Project, he will cede his position immediately. Much (private) discussion has gone on about forming a new distribution based on how the old Debian used to be. This is my last attempt at my inclusion and 'fixing' the Debian distribution, and if it does not succeed I (and others with discontent) will turn my efforts to that. Go for it! And all your alternate personalities can go with you as well. This should make for a really cozey team ;-) Luck, Dwarf -- _-_-_-_-_-_- _-_-_-_-_-_-_- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (904) 656-9769 Flexible Software 11000 McCrackin Road e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL 32308 _-_-_-_-_-_- If you don't see what you want, just ask _-_-_-_-_-_-_- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Dave Cinege wrote: Dave, trust and respect don't come freely. You have to work for it. Show your integrity and respect others, otherwise don't expect others to respect or trust you. Anthony On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:57:18 -0500, Steve Greenland wrote: Because you didn't contribute anything accept noise and dissent. I've yet to see Bruce refuse to allow someone to work on Debian, who actually had something to contribute. From Ian to me, and Bruces interjection 2 days ago: -- On Thu, 23 Oct 97 23:33 PDT, Bruce Perens wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ian Jackson) You might also find that becoming a developer would enhance your credibility. There's a little trust issue standing in the way of that, I fear. -- I have Bruces previous posts saying he would not allow my work as well as his post from months back to myself and Paul Wade saying he didn't need us anymore in his project. I can post them if people wish. I'm not going to get into arguing all this. It's happening and you're free to deny it if you can't deal with it. Bruce: Don't back down to this paranoid jerk. Just hope he goes away. Obivouly you've gone into this with an open mind. As usual Bruce couldn't possibliy do anything wrong. You are the third guy to call me paraniod yet I am staring at Bruces various posts and emails on this from months back, so I know what I'm saying is true. Unfortunaty you find it most important to attack me then admit to what is actually happening. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
Ok, good. Fine. Now pick *ONE* list to discuss this one. I am in NO mood to get 4 copies of EVERY email on this thread. All my responses to this list thread will be to debian-dissent -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Chad D. Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Southwest Technology Development Institute New Mexico State University --- HP: http://dabcc-www.nmsu.edu/~chad/ DBP: http://dabcc-www.nmsu.edu/~chad/Debian/ SWAO: http://desertwinds.multipleimage.com/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: * Formal call for the removal of Bruce Perens *
You asshole. You made me add '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' to my killfile, right next to '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'. You are an A-1 whacko. Go create your own distribution, manage it yourself, and watch the hordes of developers follow you -- not. Kindly cease to pollute my channels of communication with your worthless, bile-laden diatribe. TL. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
