Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Mon, Jan 13, 2003 at 19:21:37 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
> You can remove those lines once 4.3 is available. There is no way for
> apt to know which version you want to upgrade to unless you tell it.

But I wouldn't know when a package would be available (there are
several packages I have to track).

> If you want to just make a particular version (ie. 4.2) uninstallable,

Yes, this is what I want.

> then pin it to a sufficiently low priority, as I have outlined
> elsewhere in the thread.

This does *not* work.

> This is generally not such a good strategy, though, since minor
> upgrades will break this.

Minor upgrades should be OK.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Faheem Mitha]

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:15:46 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 15:46:36 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
>> Really? This is not what the apt_preferences man page says. In
>> particular
>> 
>> "Each package may be pinned to a specific version and each Packages
>> file has a priority for every package inside. The highest priority
>> assigned to a package is the one that is used."
>>  
>> I admit I haven't looked at the source code, so I don't know how this
>> is implemented, but it seems clear to me. Also, this is not just
>> theoretical. I have a bunch of X 4.1 packages installed, and the lines
>> in the apt preferences file prevent them from being upgraded to the
>> more recent 4.2 version. I thought this is what you were
>> after. Correct me if I was mistaken. 
> 
> But what if you want to allow the upgrade to 4.3 (or higher) when it
> becomes available? This is the problem.

You can remove those lines once 4.3 is available. There is no way for
apt to know which version you want to upgrade to unless you tell it.

If you want to just make a particular version (ie. 4.2) uninstallable,
then pin it to a sufficiently low priority, as I have outlined
elsewhere in the thread. This is generally not such a good strategy,
though, since minor upgrades will break this.

Apt can't read your mind, or do magic, you know. You need to tell it
what you want it to do.

   Faheem.


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Johann Spies]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 08:46:09AM -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 03:52:02PM +0200, Johann Spies wrote:
> 
> > Replace all the occurences of "testing" in the file with "stable" and
> > uncomment the lines with "unstable" in.
> 
> Perhaps you meant to "comment" them, rather than "uncomment" them?
> 
Yes!  Thanks and sorry for the mistake.

Johann
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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Travis Crump]

Vincent Lefevre wrote:

On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 15:57:04 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:


If you want a particular version not to be installed, then give it a
Pin lower than 100 and it will never be installed if there is another
installable version in your sources.



This is what the manual says, but this doesn't work.



The relavent part of the man page is:

Each  package may be pinned to a specific version and each Packages file 
has a priority for every package inside. The
*highest* priority assigned to a package is the one that is used.

So if your default rule pins everything in testing to 900 even if you
pin a specific version to a low number, low number < 900 so 900 is used
for the pin-priority for the package/version.



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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 15:57:04 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
> If you want a particular version not to be installed, then give it a
> Pin lower than 100 and it will never be installed if there is another
> installable version in your sources.

This is what the manual says, but this doesn't work.

I have:

Package: *
Pin: release a=stable
Pin-Priority: 900

Package: *
Pin: release a=testing
Pin-Priority: 900

Package: *
Pin: release a=unstable
Pin-Priority: 200

and I tried to add either

Package: libpng2
Pin: release a=testing
Pin-Priority: 50

or

Package: libpng2
Pin: version 1.0.12-6
Pin-Priority: 50

either before or after the generic rules. In each case, the upgrade
to version 1.0.12-6 (current testing) is proposed by apt-get upgrade.
According to another user, even a negative Pin-Priority doesn't work.
See .

I also get:

$ apt-cache policy libpng2
libpng2:
  Installed: 1.0.12-3.woody.3
  Candidate: 1.0.12-6
  Package Pin: 1.0.12-6
  Version Table:
 1.0.12-8 50
200 ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org unstable/main Packages
200 ftp://ftp.debian.org unstable/main Packages
 1.0.12-6 50
900 ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org testing/main Packages
900 ftp://ftp.debian.org testing/main Packages
 *** 1.0.12-3.woody.3 50
900 http://security.debian.org stable/updates/main Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

(Note: the unstable version can't be installed on my machine because
of dependencies.)

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 15:46:36 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
> Really? This is not what the apt_preferences man page says. In
> particular
> 
> "Each package may be pinned to a specific version and each Packages
> file has a priority for every package inside. The highest priority
> assigned to a package is the one that is used."
>  
> I admit I haven't looked at the source code, so I don't know how this
> is implemented, but it seems clear to me. Also, this is not just
> theoretical. I have a bunch of X 4.1 packages installed, and the lines
> in the apt preferences file prevent them from being upgraded to the
> more recent 4.2 version. I thought this is what you were
> after. Correct me if I was mistaken. 

But what if you want to allow the upgrade to 4.3 (or higher) when it
becomes available? This is the problem.

> > I would like something like the opposite: give a low score to some
> > version, but I don't know how to do this, because the generic rules
> > seem to take the precedence in this case.
> 
> But the other versions would by default have lower scores, so would
> not be installed in favour of your pinned version. The version
> installed is always the version with the highest pin number. Note that
> 1000 is the downgrade prevention barrier, so with the above Pin even
> more recent versions should be removed in favour of the pinned
> version.

which is not what I want.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Faheem Mitha]

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:12:40 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 06:05:47 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:04:37 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
>> > (given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
>> > way to do this?
>> 
>> Of course. Just put in an entry in /etc/apt/preferences with
>> sufficiently high pin number. Eg. I've put all my X packages on hold
>> because I am running testing but have problems with 4.2. So I have
>> 
>> Package: xfree86-common
>> Pin: version 4.1.0-16
>> Pin-Priority: 1001
>> 
>> etc. etc. See also apt_preferences. HTH.  Faheem.
> 
> No, this won't work. This would put on hold *any* version after
> 4.1.0-16. This is not a particular version.
> 
> I would like something like the opposite: give a low score to some
> version, but I don't know how to do this, because the generic rules
> seem to take the precedence in this case.

If you want a particular version not to be installed, then give it a
Pin lower than 100 and it will never be installed if there is another
installable version in your sources.

I've just read through this thread again, and I'm a little confused as
to what you want. But apt preferences are good things to know about in
any case.

  Faheem.


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Faheem Mitha]

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 11:12:40 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 06:05:47 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:04:37 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
>> > (given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
>> > way to do this?
>> 
>> Of course. Just put in an entry in /etc/apt/preferences with
>> sufficiently high pin number. Eg. I've put all my X packages on hold
>> because I am running testing but have problems with 4.2. So I have
>> 
>> Package: xfree86-common
>> Pin: version 4.1.0-16
>> Pin-Priority: 1001
>> 
>> etc. etc. See also apt_preferences. HTH.  Faheem.
> 
> No, this won't work. This would put on hold *any* version after
> 4.1.0-16. This is not a particular version.

Really? This is not what the apt_preferences man page says. In
particular

"Each package may be pinned to a specific version and each Packages
file has a priority for every package inside. The highest priority
assigned to a package is the one that is used."
 
I admit I haven't looked at the source code, so I don't know how this
is implemented, but it seems clear to me. Also, this is not just
theoretical. I have a bunch of X 4.1 packages installed, and the lines
in the apt preferences file prevent them from being upgraded to the
more recent 4.2 version. I thought this is what you were
after. Correct me if I was mistaken. 

See also that I can't upgrade to 4.2 (which is in testing) or any more
recent version even if I try.

Chrestomanci:/home/faheem# dpkg -l xfree86-common
[...]
||/ Name   VersionDescription
+++-==-==-===
pi  xfree86-common 4.1.0-16   X Window
System (XFree86) infrastructure

Chrestomanci:/home/faheem# apt-get install xfree86-common
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
Sorry, xfree86-common is already the newest version.
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0  not
upgraded.

Chrestomanci:/home/faheem# apt-get install -t unstable xfree86-common
Reading Package Lists... Done
Building Dependency Tree... Done
Sorry, xfree86-common is already the newest version.
0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 357  not upgraded.

> I would like something like the opposite: give a low score to some
> version, but I don't know how to do this, because the generic rules
> seem to take the precedence in this case.

But the other versions would by default have lower scores, so would
not be installed in favour of your pinned version. The version
installed is always the version with the highest pin number. Note that
1000 is the downgrade prevention barrier, so with the above Pin even
more recent versions should be removed in favour of the pinned
version.

If I am missing something, let me know what it is. In any case,
perhaps you could just try it and see if it works.

   Faheem.


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Sun, Jan 12, 2003 at 06:05:47 +, Faheem Mitha wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:04:37 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
> > (given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
> > way to do this?
> 
> Of course. Just put in an entry in /etc/apt/preferences with
> sufficiently high pin number. Eg. I've put all my X packages on hold
> because I am running testing but have problems with 4.2. So I have
> 
> Package: xfree86-common
> Pin: version 4.1.0-16
> Pin-Priority: 1001
> 
> etc. etc. See also apt_preferences. HTH.  Faheem.

No, this won't work. This would put on hold *any* version after
4.1.0-16. This is not a particular version.

I would like something like the opposite: give a low score to some
version, but I don't know how to do this, because the generic rules
seem to take the precedence in this case.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Faheem Mitha]

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:04:37 +0100, Vincent Lefevre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 11:36:27 -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
>> There is nothing (that I know of) in the packaging system to know which
>> packages are secure and which are not.  You would need to put the
>> package on hold during the insecure times and remove it from hold after.
> 
> Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
> (given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
> way to do this?

Of course. Just put in an entry in /etc/apt/preferences with
sufficiently high pin number. Eg. I've put all my X packages on hold
because I am running testing but have problems with 4.2. So I have

Package: xfree86-common
Pin: version 4.1.0-16
Pin-Priority: 1001

etc. etc. See also apt_preferences. HTH.  Faheem.


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Jamin W. Collins]

On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 12:39:24AM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> I don't understand. How will "apt-get upgrade" know when to upgrade
> locally-built packages?

Normally, when the version of the package in the pool has a higher
version number number.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 22:59:36 +0100, Frank Gevaerts wrote:
> If you do this, dependencies will be consistent, but not equal to those
> in the outside world. basically, there are 3 kinds of dependencies :
> - build-dependencies : these aren't really a problem here
> - dynamically-made library dependencies : whatever was needed by the
>   package just after building
> - explicitely mentionned dependencies.
> 
> Of these, only the dynamically-made library dependencies will be
> different for your locally-built package, (they may be different 
> for a locally-built package of the same distribution as well), but
> they should be _correct_. If they aren't, it is a bug in the source
> package.

I don't understand. How will "apt-get upgrade" know when to upgrade
locally-built packages?

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Frank Gevaerts]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 10:32:44PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:27:32 -0800, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> > In most cases of security alerts, both stable and unstable get prompt
> > updates with the necessary fixes, but testing does not (until the
> > unstable version migrates downward).  I'm running testing and have used
> > 'apt-get -b source' to grab the unstable source and build a package of
> > the newer version, where necessary. 
> 
> But I want to keep dependencies consistent.

If you do this, dependencies will be consistent, but not equal to those
in the outside world. basically, there are 3 kinds of dependencies :
- build-dependencies : these aren't really a problem here
- dynamically-made library dependencies : whatever was needed by the
  package just after building
- explicitely mentionned dependencies.

Of these, only the dynamically-made library dependencies will be
different for your locally-built package, (they may be different 
for a locally-built package of the same distribution as well), but
they should be _correct_. If they aren't, it is a bug in the source
package.

Frank
> 
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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:27:32 -0800, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> In most cases of security alerts, both stable and unstable get prompt
> updates with the necessary fixes, but testing does not (until the
> unstable version migrates downward).  I'm running testing and have used
> 'apt-get -b source' to grab the unstable source and build a package of
> the newer version, where necessary. 

But I want to keep dependencies consistent.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Bob Nielsen]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 12:27:01PM -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 07:04:37PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> 
> > Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
> > (given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
> > way to do this?
> 
> You could grab the source, edit the changelog to incriment the version,
> and recompile.  It would effectively put it on hold until a package
> became available with a greater version number.  Other than that, I
> don't think so.

In most cases of security alerts, both stable and unstable get prompt
updates with the necessary fixes, but testing does not (until the
unstable version migrates downward).  I'm running testing and have used
'apt-get -b source' to grab the unstable source and build a package of
the newer version, where necessary. 


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Jamin W. Collins]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 07:04:37PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
> (given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
> way to do this?

You could grab the source, edit the changelog to incriment the version,
and recompile.  It would effectively put it on hold until a package
became available with a greater version number.  Other than that, I
don't think so.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 11:36:27 -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> There is nothing (that I know of) in the packaging system to know which
> packages are secure and which are not.  You would need to put the
> package on hold during the insecure times and remove it from hold after.

Well, if one could put on hold a particular version of a package
(given by the user), it would be better than nothing. Is there a
way to do this?

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Jamin W. Collins]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 06:02:11PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> But I still want to be able to install automatically non-insecure
> versions of the package. In fact, I'd like to put on hold only the
> current version of the package.

There is nothing (that I know of) in the packaging system to know which
packages are secure and which are not.  You would need to put the
package on hold during the insecure times and remove it from hold after.
While the package is on hold, apt will not automatically take any action
to upgrade it.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 10:44:34 -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 03:30:52PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 07:38:12 -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> > 
> > > Put it on hold:
> > > 
> > >http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-puttingonhold
> > 
> > How can I do this with apt?
> 
> apt will respect the hold set through the instructions above via dpkg,
> nothing else needs to be done.

But I still want to be able to install automatically non-insecure
versions of the package. In fact, I'd like to put on hold only the
current version of the package.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Jamin W. Collins]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 03:30:52PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 07:38:12 -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> 
> > Put it on hold:
> > 
> >http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-puttingonhold
> 
> How can I do this with apt?

apt will respect the hold set through the instructions above via dpkg,
nothing else needs to be done.

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Jamin W. Collins]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 03:52:02PM +0200, Johann Spies wrote:

> Replace all the occurences of "testing" in the file with "stable" and
> uncomment the lines with "unstable" in.

Perhaps you meant to "comment" them, rather than "uncomment" them?

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 07:38:12 -0600, Jamin W. Collins wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 01:43:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> 
> > Is there a way to configure apt to disable the upgrade to insecure
> > versions of packages?
> 
> Put it on hold:
> 
>http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-puttingonhold

How can I do this with apt?

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 15:52:02 +0200, Johann Spies wrote:
> Replace all the occurences of "testing" in the file with "stable" and
> uncomment the lines with "unstable" in.

I don't want to switch to stable!!!

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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Johann Spies]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 02:30:57PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 15:01:25 +0200, Johann Spies wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 01:43:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > > Is there a way to configure apt to disable the upgrade to insecure
> > > versions of packages?
> > ...
> > 
> > What does your /etc/apt/sources.list look like?

> 
> deb ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
> deb-src ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
> deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US testing/non-US main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US testing/non-US main contrib non-free
> 
> deb ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
> deb-src ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
> deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US unstable/non-US main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US unstable/non-US main contrib non-free
> 
> deb ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
> deb-src ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
> 
> deb ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
> deb-src ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
> 
> deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free
> 

Replace all the occurences of "testing" in the file with "stable" and
uncomment the lines with "unstable" in.

Do apt-get update after that and everything should be OK

Regards.
Johann
-- 
Johann Spies  Telefoon: 021-808 4036
Informasietegnologie, Universiteit van Stellenbosch

 "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the
  Lord...Be patient; strengthen your hearts, for 
  the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."   
   James 5:7,8 


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Jamin W. Collins]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 01:43:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> Is there a way to configure apt to disable the upgrade to insecure
> versions of packages?

Put it on hold:

   http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-puttingonhold

-- 
Jamin W. Collins


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 15:01:25 +0200, Johann Spies wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 01:43:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > Is there a way to configure apt to disable the upgrade to insecure
> > versions of packages?
> ...
> 
> What does your /etc/apt/sources.list look like?

deb ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
deb-src ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US testing/non-US main contrib non-free
deb-src http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US testing/non-US main contrib non-free

deb ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
deb-src ftp://ftp.fr.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US unstable/non-US main contrib non-free
deb-src http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US unstable/non-US main contrib non-free

deb ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib
deb-src ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib

deb ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib
deb-src ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main non-free contrib

deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free

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validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International
des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc.
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[desiderata]

Is there a way to configure apt to disable the upgrade to insecure
versions of packages? 

For the moment, I can't use 'apt-get dist-upgrade' as it propose me
to upgrade to
  * libpng2-dev (1.0.12-6 Debian:testing)
  * libpng2 (1.0.12-6 Debian:testing)
  * xpdf (1.01-3 Debian:testing)
(I chose to downgrade to install security updates, but don't want
to upgrade these packages to testing as long as there isn't a fix).
I need to use 'apt-get dist-upgrade -s', then 'apt-get install'...

how about installing synaptic first? then after clicking on the 
dist-upgrade, find the packages you don't want upgrade and click on 'keep'. 

apt-get synaptic 

Elijah


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Re: [apt] Disabling upgrade to insecure packages

[Johann Spies]

On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 01:43:05PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> Is there a way to configure apt to disable the upgrade to insecure
> versions of packages?
> 
...

What does your /etc/apt/sources.list look like?

Johann
-- 
Johann Spies  Telefoon: 021-808 4036
Informasietegnologie, Universiteit van Stellenbosch

 "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the
  Lord...Be patient; strengthen your hearts, for 
  the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."   
   James 5:7,8 


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