Re: A question for the list:
In 20101108050349.1bf5c...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 18:25:53 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011071826.00774@iguanasuicide.net: (Really, some required parts of Debian are simply missing from experimental, so it isn't possible to install *just* experimental.) ..well, we do have the 2.6.36 kernel in place in Experimental, and X and the radeon driver... what else do we need to fly? ;o) dpkg. libc. Assuming you want to use apt: apt and perl. binutils. fileutils. Assuming you want network: ifupdown. (aptitude search '~E') should give you a list of essential packages. A rare few can be uninstalled in favor of something that satisfies a virtual package. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: A question for the list:
On Friday 05 November 2010 12:50:08 Klistvud wrote: and Debian ... [snip] having a particularly slow release schedule (yep, while many complain about that, I consider it as being one of Debian's strongest points; go figure) +1 or can I cheat and make that +2?? I see that as very much one of Debian's strengths. As is not releasing until it is ready. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201011082010.57297.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 03:05:43 -0600 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. b...@iguanasuicide.net wrote: In 20101108050349.1bf5c...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 18:25:53 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011071826.00774@iguanasuicide.net: (Really, some required parts of Debian are simply missing from experimental, so it isn't possible to install *just* experimental.) ..well, we do have the 2.6.36 kernel in place in Experimental, and X and the radeon driver... what else do we need to fly? ;o) dpkg. libc. Assuming you want to use apt: apt and perl. binutils. fileutils. Assuming you want network: ifupdown. ifupdown is not essential for networking - are you thinking of net-tools? Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101108152322.2b31b617.cele...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 03:05:43 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011080305.48486@iguanasuicide.net: In 20101108050349.1bf5c...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 18:25:53 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011071826.00774@iguanasuicide.net: (Really, some required parts of Debian are simply missing from experimental, so it isn't possible to install *just* experimental.) ..well, we do have the 2.6.36 kernel in place in Experimental, and X and the radeon driver... what else do we need to fly? ;o) dpkg. libc. Assuming you want to use apt: apt and perl. binutils. fileutils. Assuming you want network: ifupdown. ..I troll you ifconfig, dd and netcat. ;o) (aptitude search '~E') should give you a list of essential ..define essential, in our Experimental context. ;o) packages. A rare few can be uninstalled in favor of something that satisfies a virtual package. ..aye. Debian is all about stability, not about fancy kinky experimental troll cuisine. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101108224106.2c5c2...@a45.fmb.no
Re: A question for the list:
In 20101108224106.2c5c2...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 03:05:43 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011080305.48486@iguanasuicide.net: (aptitude search '~E') should give you a list of essential ..define essential, in our Experimental context. ;o) From http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html: 5.6.9 Essential This is a boolean field which may occur only in the control file of a binary package or in a per-package fields paragraph of a main source control data file. If set to yes then the package management system will refuse to remove the package (upgrading and replacing it is still possible). The other possible value is no, which is the same as not having the field at all. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: A question for the list:
In 20101106225444.0fb26...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:57:28 -0500, John wrote in message 87lj57y4x3@thumper.dhh.gt.org: Arnt Karlsen writes: ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) Because not every package has a version in experimental. It is structured like backports, packages are only added as needed. This means that there may be times when either there there is no version of essential packages (think libc or dpkg) in experimental or that version is actually older than the version in unstable/Sid. Just like backports, it is meant to be an addition to some other complete version of Debian. Backports is usually mixed with stable. Experimental is usually mixed with unstable/Sid. While I don't recommend it, you certainly *could* install Sid and then pull in every package from experimental that had a version in experimental. That would be roughly equivalent to flying an experimental plane. What you can't do is install experimental. That would be roughly equivalent trying to get airborne with just a set of experimental wings and control services but no fuselage or instruments. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: A question for the list:
ZephyrQ wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:18:04, John Hasler wrote: Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. Still, upgrading too seldom can make the upgrade more painful, even for testing. YMMV, of course. I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). I just posted a question on a broken Sid package: mondo. But that won't be found with apt-listbugs because all bugs for this package are more than a year old. It appears to have to do with the version of udev that Sid has. I use mondo for backup system and I have found that this appears the most sensitive to upgrades. Other than that I rarely or never have problems with Sid and have been using it since years ago I needed it for the most recent versions of X. Hugo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ib6s63$fu...@dough.gmane.org
Re: A question for the list:
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 02:35:48 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011070235.48667@iguanasuicide.net: In 20101106225444.0fb26...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:57:28 -0500, John wrote in message 87lj57y4x3@thumper.dhh.gt.org: Arnt Karlsen writes: ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) Because not every package has a version in experimental. It is structured like backports, packages are only added as needed. This means that there may be times when either there there is no version of essential packages (think libc or dpkg) in experimental or that version is actually older than the version in unstable/Sid. Just like backports, it is meant to be an addition to some other complete version of Debian. Backports is usually mixed with stable. Experimental is usually mixed with unstable/Sid. While I don't recommend it, you certainly *could* install Sid and then pull in every package from experimental that had a version in experimental. That would be roughly equivalent to flying an experimental plane. ..correct, and rejecting all bit's that needs more hammering to fit until they do fit, then fly and see what happens. ;o) What you can't do is install experimental. That would be roughly equivalent trying to get airborne with just a set of experimental wings and control services but no fuselage or instruments. ..yup, works quite well since 1903. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101108011639.558d7...@a45.fmb.no
Re: A question for the list:
On Sunday 07 November 2010 18:16:39 Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 02:35:48 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011070235.48667@iguanasuicide.net: In 20101106225444.0fb26...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:57:28 -0500, John wrote in message 87lj57y4x3@thumper.dhh.gt.org: Arnt Karlsen writes: ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) What you can't do is install experimental. That would be roughly equivalent trying to get airborne with just a set of experimental wings and control services but no fuselage or instruments. ..yup, works quite well since 1903. ;o) Fsckin' flying-wing designs, I figured someone would reference them. I mean it was like trying to get airborne without some part of the plane that is absolutely required. (Really, some required parts of Debian are simply missing from experimental, so it isn't possible to install *just* experimental.) -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: A question for the list:
On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 18:25:53 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011071826.00774@iguanasuicide.net: On Sunday 07 November 2010 18:16:39 Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 02:35:48 -0600, Boyd wrote in message 201011070235.48667@iguanasuicide.net: In 20101106225444.0fb26...@a45.fmb.no, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:57:28 -0500, John wrote in message 87lj57y4x3@thumper.dhh.gt.org: Arnt Karlsen writes: ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) What you can't do is install experimental. That would be roughly equivalent trying to get airborne with just a set of experimental wings and control services but no fuselage or instruments. ..yup, works quite well since 1903. ;o) Fsckin' flying-wing designs, I figured someone would reference them. ..those came later, Horten, Lippisch 'n Northrop. ;o) I mean it was like trying to get airborne without some part of the plane that is absolutely required. ..no part of the plane is absolutely required, I've gotten airborne gaining a wee bit of altitude without an aircraft, all it took was a wee gust, but that stunt was a fair bit more accidental than experimental, I was just leaning on the wind waving arms like a parachute jumper, and had enough sense and airmanship to just grab and hang onto the fence. ;o) (Really, some required parts of Debian are simply missing from experimental, so it isn't possible to install *just* experimental.) ..well, we do have the 2.6.36 kernel in place in Experimental, and X and the radeon driver... what else do we need to fly? ;o) ..and the only danger in my Sid + Experimental combination, would have to come from the somewhat cocky can-do troll attitude it helps build. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101108050349.1bf5c...@a45.fmb.no
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 06:43:34AM -0500, ZephyrQ wrote: Stan Hoeppner wrote: ZephyrQ put forth on 11/4/2010 9:50 PM: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? What situation are you in that motivates this question? Not a specific situation, merely an exploration. I've been using Debian stable for years. I've tried Ubuntu (in the early years) and Mint. Before Debian I used SuSE. Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. I know that Squeeze is coming up the pipe fairly soon; but I'm in process of moving my office and upgrading equipment and am taking opportunity to see what others like besides Debian. I may try out another flavor. I realize that Debian's 'stableness' contributes to its 'staleness', and I like/need that stability as I do a lot of work from home. But I also want to try out some software that is often not supported yet in stable (dependencies, usually) and I don't have time (middle-aged teacher...) to track down fixes/kludges/etc. So I'm looking for a good balance between stability and usability while staying up to date (sort of). Sounds like maybe you want Debian stable with backports. Or maybe Debian testing (particularly now that testing is frozen, things should be more consistent than normal in testing). If I couldn't use Debian, I'd probably run one of the following. CentOS on my servers. Advantages: 1) Lng supported life (7 years) 2) CentOS / RedHat is popular with businesses, so knowing it well might help me get a job someday Disadvantages: 1) Much smaller repository than Debian. You can get additional software from several 3rd party repos, but you'd better pick just one because they often conflict with each other. 2) Subject to commercial interests (RedHat). Ubuntu on my desktops. Advantages: 1) LTS versions have approximately the same supported life as Debian stable. 2) Large repositories. Disadvantages: 1) A little more buggy than Debian, in my experience. Way more upgrades than Debian stable. 2) Subject to commercial interests (Canonical) 3) The online help is great for beginners, but now that I'm past the beginner stage I find the amount of noise in the Ubuntu help forums to be particularly unhelpful. Ubuntu on my servers? Advantages vs. CentOS: 1) Large repositories -- might not be important on servers, depending on application. 2) Apt is quicker than yum, although I think yum has had some recent speed improvements. Disadvantages vs. CentOS: 1) Shorter supported life. 2) I think I trust RedHat's direction more than Canonical's, mainly because RedHat has been around longer and Canonical still seems to be struggling with its identity/purpose/business plan. That's all for now... -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101106120557.gb15...@aurora.owens.net
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:57:28 -0500, John wrote in message 87lj57y4x3@thumper.dhh.gt.org: Arnt Karlsen writes: ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101106225444.0fb26...@a45.fmb.no
Re: A question for the list:
I wrote: Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. Arnt Karlsen writes: ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) Yeager flew complete aircraft. The packages in Experimental are often more like wind-tunnel models. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87bp62xeoo@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: A question for the list:
On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 17:36:23 -0500, John wrote in message 87bp62xeoo@thumper.dhh.gt.org: I wrote: Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. Arnt Karlsen writes: ..why not? Progress takes _somebody_ pushing forward, and, Chuck Yeager made it thru ok in his Experimental rides. ;o) Yeager flew complete aircraft. ...in which he too helped find bugs... ;o) The packages in Experimental are often more like wind-tunnel models. ..aye, and when these reach their limits, I and NASA fly R/C models for fun and to set speed records. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101107042700.34594...@a45.fmb.no
Re: A question for the list:
ZephyrQ wrote: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? Red Hat -- I learned Linux on Red Hat. It worked fine up through version 7.3. 8 had problems. 9 was worse. Red Hat went commercial and turned their back on enthusiasts. I switched to Debian. SuSE -- I've tried SuSE a few times over the years. Administration is via GUI's. I prefer Bash, Vim, and RCS/CVS. Ubuntu -- I tried Ubuntu for desktops and as an LTSP server in late 2009. Installation, LTSP, software RAID, and whole drive encryption were easy, but I ran into video driver problems with LTSP terminals (older p3 boxes with various outdated video cards). The Ubuntu features may have saved time if you didn't want to get under the hood, but added learning curve when you did. There seemed to be more updates and less stability than Debian. FreeBSD -- the primary FOSS alternative to GNU/Linux. The BSD architecture is more stable than Linux and the documentation is solid. I ran BSD and Linux servers and DOS/ Windows desktops for years. In the end, Linux won because of GNU (Linux, DJGPP, and Cygwin), malware resistance, and cost. Now all my machines are Debian GNU/Linux except for one laptop with Windows XP/Pro for specific applications. My domain hosting service was Slackware, then Ubuntu, and now Debian. HTH, David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd3a05a.1060...@holgerdanske.com
Re: A question for the list:
ZephyrQ put forth on 11/4/2010 9:50 PM: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? What situation are you in that motivates this question? -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd3a96a.4030...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 21:50:07 -0500, ZephyrQ wrote: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? I've using openSUSE for many years... rock solid, mature, a very good - and skilled- community of users, and perfect for workstation or laptop use. The only but is they have recently dropped the common support from 24 to 18 months (meaning: after one year and a half you have to upgrade the whole system to keep getting security patches) and that's a very short period for using it in a server room. So for a server usage if I couldn't use Debian I'd propably look into CentOS or FreeBSD. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.05.07.24...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:12:42 -0700, David Christensen wrote: (...) SuSE -- I've tried SuSE a few times over the years. Administration is via GUI's. I prefer Bash, Vim, and RCS/CVS. openSUSE is one of the bests distributions for command line users :-) (running YasT in ncurses is a pleasure) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.05.07.26...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
Dne, 05. 11. 2010 03:50:07 je ZephyrQ napisal(a): If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? gNewSense. Failing that, anything from http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1288943100.671...@compax
Re: A question for the list:
If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? Occasionally PClinuxOS on desktops, and occasionally CentOS in server room. Regards Roman
Re: A question for the list:
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.: In 4cd3921a.5090...@optonline.net, Doug wrote: One thing I really _don't_ like about Debian is its fear of the copyright. I really want Thunderbird and Firefox, with their familiar icons, on my screen, not the goofy clones that Debian has come up with. It's not a fear. It's a reality. The Mozilla Foundation contacted Debian Developers and asked them to come into compliance on the trademark usage allowances that Mozilla provides. The funny thing is, AFAIR the trademark license has been changed since then and if I got it right, there is no need for rebranding anymore. :) Debian's choices were: 1. Seek approval from the Mozilla Foundation for *all* patches. 2. Stop using the trademark. #1 was not an option anyway, because it doesn't comply with the DFSG. Everyone must be allowed to change and distribute Debian without permission from anyone else. J. -- Nothing is as I planned it. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A question for the list:
Stan Hoeppner wrote: ZephyrQ put forth on 11/4/2010 9:50 PM: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? What situation are you in that motivates this question? Not a specific situation, merely an exploration. I've been using Debian stable for years. I've tried Ubuntu (in the early years) and Mint. Before Debian I used SuSE. Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. I know that Squeeze is coming up the pipe fairly soon; but I'm in process of moving my office and upgrading equipment and am taking opportunity to see what others like besides Debian. I may try out another flavor. I realize that Debian's 'stableness' contributes to its 'staleness', and I like/need that stability as I do a lot of work from home. But I also want to try out some software that is often not supported yet in stable (dependencies, usually) and I don't have time (middle-aged teacher...) to track down fixes/kludges/etc. So I'm looking for a good balance between stability and usability while staying up to date (sort of). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd3ede6.20...@sbcglobal.net
Re: A question for the list:
Klistvud wrote: Dne, 05. 11. 2010 03:50:07 je ZephyrQ napisal(a): If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? gNewSense. How stable/solid is it? I've looked at it and am intrigued... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd3ef76.6060...@sbcglobal.net
Re: A question for the list:
Dne, 05. 11. 2010 12:43:34 je ZephyrQ napisal(a): I realize that Debian's 'stableness' contributes to its 'staleness', It doesn't just contribute. There's a reason why there's only a small b of difference between staleness and stableness. -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1288960286.671...@compax
Re: A question for the list:
Hello, On 05/11/10 19:43, ZephyrQ wrote: Stan Hoeppner wrote: ZephyrQ put forth on 11/4/2010 9:50 PM: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? What situation are you in that motivates this question? Not a specific situation, merely an exploration. I've been using Debian stable for years. I've tried Ubuntu (in the early years) and Mint. Before Debian I used SuSE. Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. I know that Squeeze is coming up the pipe fairly soon; but I'm in process of moving my office and upgrading equipment and am taking opportunity to see what others like besides Debian. I may try out another flavor. I realize that Debian's 'stableness' contributes to its 'staleness', and I like/need that stability as I do a lot of work from home. But I also want to try out some software that is often not supported yet in stable (dependencies, usually) and I don't have time (middle-aged teacher...) to track down fixes/kludges/etc. So I'm looking for a good balance between stability and usability while staying up to date (sort of). quid Debian testing ? Jerome -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd3fa97.10...@rezozer.net
Re: A question for the list:
Dne, 05. 11. 2010 12:50:14 je ZephyrQ napisal(a): gNewSense. How stable/solid is it? I've looked at it and am intrigued... I must have misunderstood your question. I have never tried gNewSense, I was just pointing out that, personally, the only distros I would be willing to try out are distros that are at least as free/libre as Debian. Among the distros I did try out - Knoppix, Ubuntu, OpenSuSE, Mandriva, and some minor ones - there is not a single one I'd be willing to revert to. I guess there's a reason I'm staying with Debian after all ;-) ... Ideological reasons, mostly ... DFSG ... and Debian being a community endeavor ... and having a particularly slow release schedule (yep, while many complain about that, I consider it as being one of Debian's strongest points; go figure) ... and being secure ... and stable ... and being the mother of so many distros ... ;) -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1288961408.671...@compax
Re: A question for the list:
In 20101105090054.gc4...@wasteland.homelinux.net, Jochen Schulz wrote: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.: In 4cd3921a.5090...@optonline.net, Doug wrote: One thing I really _don't_ like about Debian is its fear of the copyright. I really want Thunderbird and Firefox, with their familiar icons, on my screen, not the goofy clones that Debian has come up with. It's not a fear. It's a reality. The Mozilla Foundation contacted Debian Developers and asked them to come into compliance on the trademark usage allowances that Mozilla provides. The funny thing is, AFAIR the trademark license has been changed since then and if I got it right, there is no need for rebranding anymore. :) From http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html: MODIFICATIONS If you're taking full advantage of the open-source nature of Mozilla's products and making significant functional changes, you may not redistribute the fruits of your labor under any Mozilla trademark, without Mozilla's prior written consent. For example, if the product you've modified is Firefox, you may not use Mozilla or Firefox, in whole or in part, in its name. Also, it would be inappropriate for you to say based on Mozilla Firefox. Instead, in the interest of complete accuracy, you could describe your executables as based on Mozilla technology, or incorporating Mozilla source code. In addition, you may want to read the discussion on the Powered by Mozilla logo. In addition, if you compile a modified version, as discussed above, with branding enabled (the default in our source code is branding disabled), you will require Mozilla's prior written permission. If it's not the unmodified installer package from www.mozilla.com, and you want to use our trademark(s), our review and approval of your modifications is required. You also must change the name of the executable so as to reduce the chance that a user of the modified software will be misled into believing it to be a native Mozilla product. Again, any modification to the Mozilla product, including adding to, modifying in any way, or deleting content from the files included with an installer, file location changes, added code, modification of any source files including additions and deletions, etc., will require our permission if you want to use the Mozilla Marks. If you have any doubt, just ask us at tradema...@mozilla.com. Debian's choices were: 1. Seek approval from the Mozilla Foundation for *all* patches. 2. Stop using the trademark. #1 was not an option anyway, because it doesn't comply with the DFSG. Everyone must be allowed to change and distribute Debian without permission from anyone else. I disagree. DFSG point 4 allows conditions like if you modify the source, you must change the name. From http://www.debian.org/social_contract: The license may require derived works to carry a different name or version number from the original software. (This is a compromise. The Debian group encourages all authors not to restrict any files, source or binary, from being modified.) -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: A question for the list:
In 4cd3ede6.20...@sbcglobal.net, ZephyrQ wrote: Stan Hoeppner wrote: ZephyrQ put forth on 11/4/2010 9:50 PM: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? What situation are you in that motivates this question? Not a specific situation, merely an exploration. I've been using Debian stable for years. I've tried Ubuntu (in the early years) and Mint. Before Debian I used SuSE. Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. I know that Squeeze is coming up the pipe fairly soon; but I'm in process of moving my office and upgrading equipment and am taking opportunity to see what others like besides Debian. I may try out another flavor. A mixed system! http://iguanasuicide.net/node/4 -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: A question for the list:
ZephyrQ writes: Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. If you are talking about a desktop and want to be on the bleeding edge use Unstable. It's quite usable. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8739rgylmw@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: A question for the list:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/5/10 8:56 AM, John Hasler wrote: ZephyrQ writes: Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. If you are talking about a desktop and want to be on the bleeding edge use Unstable. It's quite usable. Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. It gives you a little list of bugs against packages you're installing/upgrading so you can decide if you want to go through with the install. I've been saved from catastrophe more then once by that little package. Drew -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJM1APYAAoJEEaDz7AcIUia3agH/jF8bmJJQ1y2nI2//HxeZi5R 4SHFzQniTZwwFTy+nkRBqCBQUNoCkATMLdmxa9At/jSViEfSWlV4r7s7uKdajJ4A fSaXrykkVHJHnvxbXcV9Q+13WDtbB6A65wwykzDIqFza8eZKgO5mmaclpdT2bQ52 eNIKxTct7I2DeKS6aimGzVthrsvwA0ubCG5GQw/LCOCimQa/FnDwA4x2Lv+1WuSe qZY4+cbdPevjj2ajdQjRjzbeteTV7xpyMfoaTrA5scSfSAn+XplJr8XXM5Xq0MKd fCUVUCIweC1kUn9MbYLBXSEKe4rCZF/jDohB0jvXSFvXyZHyPlSEE1BF0gpAYqA= =5ilR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd403d8.50...@walrusgroup.com
Re: A question for the list:
Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87y697yf2r@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: A question for the list:
On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:18:04, John Hasler wrote: Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. Still, upgrading too seldom can make the upgrade more painful, even for testing. YMMV, of course. Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A question for the list:
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:18:04, John Hasler wrote: Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. Still, upgrading too seldom can make the upgrade more painful, even for testing. YMMV, of course. I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd428af.70...@sbcglobal.net
Re: A question for the list:
On 05/11/10 02:50, ZephyrQ wrote: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? Since I don't use debian for everything and it depends what I'm doing, I can't really answer that. For firewalls, load balancers, routers (where I'm not using Cisco et al) I use OpenBSD. Some webservers and such like are also OpenBSD. Desktop is a mix of debian and windows, I use windows for games as not all games work under wine etc plus you get better performance using latest nvidia drivers and windows nativly, in general (Linux plays games alot better recently, admittedly, but when you want max settings and max FPS, I just find it doesn't cut it for me). Linux is good for high memory systems and where you need SMP which OpenBSD doesn't do well. But essentially, I believe OpenBSD is a lot better for more things FreeBSD has ZFS support so that's always around and I think ZFS is pretty good!!! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd428d6.1090...@sharescope.co.uk
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri November 5 2010 08:54:23 am ZephyrQ wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:18:04, John Hasler wrote: Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. Still, upgrading too seldom can make the upgrade more painful, even for testing. YMMV, of course. I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). I have not experienced any downtime with squeeze or sid. At times there are bugs that are usually minor. There isn't much to do but wait for the package to be updated. That doesn't take long usually, in sid packages can be updated frequently. Packages have to live in sid for 10 days without rc bugs in order to move into testing so the software in squeeze has had some testing and it will take longer for buggy packages to be fixed and make the transition to testing. If anything is going to happen it will happen in testing/unstable so buyer beware ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201011050912.39163.alian...@shaw.ca
Re: A question for the list:
On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:54:23, ZephyrQ wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:18:04, John Hasler wrote: Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. Still, upgrading too seldom can make the upgrade more painful, even for testing. YMMV, of course. I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). I don't recall the last time sid was broken so that manual intervention was needed to get the system running, but individual applications can have annoying bugs. Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A question for the list:
On 05/11/10 15:54, ZephyrQ wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Vi, 05 nov 10, 10:18:04, John Hasler wrote: Drew writes: Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. Good point. Also, don't feel that you should track Unstable. Upgrade individual packages as needed and do an occasional dist-upgrade if you feel the need to clean things up. Still, upgrading too seldom can make the upgrade more painful, even for testing. YMMV, of course. I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). In my case, I'd say that I notice something important is broken about three or four times a year, and it's usually sound. If it takes more than about half an hour to fix, I'd call it serious and I'd guess that happens less than once a year, more than once in two years. The last minor one was about a week ago, when a grub update prevented booting for those who have a separate /boot partition (*not* the first time that's happened, and for the same reason as last time, so at least it was an easy fix). I have twice in about seven years met something beyond my ability to fix (and one of those concerned grub) and needed to reinstall. But it's a workstation, so there's nothing important stored on it, and I take frequent backups of /etc and the package list. I also have other computers, which is important if you consider running sid. I do upgrade pretty well every day, because the backlog builds up very quickly otherwise. Depending on the position in the release cycle, a download average of 70-80MB/day for a week or two is not unusual, and I'd rather not deal with a week of that at a time. 5-10 minutes a day is manageable, I'd prefer that it wasn't a one-hour session, as I'd keep putting it off until it was a three- or four-hour one. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd432ca.8030...@jretrading.com
Re: A question for the list:
On 05 Nov 2010, ZephyrQ wrote: I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). I think the last time anything really bad happened was over a year ago, when there were a lot of things going on with X. Other than that, I run apt-listbugs, as others have suggested, and I try to remember to check that packages I need are not going to be removed, as sometimes happens, resulting in a few days' annoyance until a missing dependency is fixed. -- Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk - sample my ebooks at http://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/acampbell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105162514.gk19...@acampbell.org.uk
Re: A question for the list:
I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). I've been using Debian testing on my desktops and laptops for about 7 years now. I remember some serious problems with major transitions (e.g. xfree86-xorg), but over the last 2-3 years I can't remember of any problems I've had to fix other than ones due to my particular desires (mostly: convincing APT to keep Gnome with wicd rather than network-manager). The best part for me, tho, is that you don't have to go through the big version upgrade cycle, since you can do small updates as often as you like: the more often you do them, the smaller (i.e. painless) they get. Stefan Still running the same 7 year-old install -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/jwv4obvwvvd.fsf-monnier+gmane.linux.debian.u...@gnu.org
Re: A question for the list:
ZephyrQ writes: I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? Once every year or two (but I use neither Gnome nor KDE). The fix usually consists of waiting for a missing library to be uploaded. It's a good idea to keep an eye on debian-devel for discussions of complex transitions, broken uploads, etc. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87pqujy9dm@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: A question for the list:
I really want Thunderbird and Firefox, with their familiar icons, on my screen, not the goofy clones that Debian has come up with. Why not install Firefox and Thunderbird in /opt? I was looking to replace SuSE 10.1, because it wouldn't play music; none of the SuSEs I have had ever would. That's funny! My friend say the same thing and I never get video but can audio. It was very long time ago so maybe things changed. --doug Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A. M. Greeley -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd44847.9010...@dobosevic.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 09:17:12 -0400, Andrew wrote in message 4cd403d8.50...@walrusgroup.com: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/5/10 8:56 AM, John Hasler wrote: ZephyrQ writes: Lately, though, Debian seems 'stale'. If you are talking about a desktop and want to be on the bleeding edge use Unstable. It's quite usable. ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Consider installing apt-listbugs if you're going to run sid. It gives you a little list of bugs against packages you're installing/upgrading so you can decide if you want to go through with the install. I've been saved from catastrophe more then once by that little package. ..' reportbug ' is also nice helping yourself and the DD's. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105191950.29786...@a45.fmb.no
Re: A question for the list:
I hate to ask the question this way, but in terms of problems/fixes/downtime--approximately how often do you find that you have to 'fix' something in Sid? 1x week, 1x month? (I know that my MMV, but if I start playing with either testing or unstable, I don't want to get into a problem/find fix/fix lather/rinse/repeat cycle too often). I have one Sid for 1y or little more and don't have any problem except with networking and I can thanks for that to Broadcom. -- Bye, Goran Dobosevic Hrvatski: www.dobosevic.com English: www.dobosevic.com/en/ Registered Linux User #503414 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd44eb4.6010...@dobosevic.com
Re: A question for the list:
Arnt Karlsen writes: ..IME, it's Unstable, it and Experimental doesn't quite live up to the expectations of adrenaline kicks you want from these PR'y buzzwords. ;o) Don't try to install Experimental, though. It is not intended to be a complete distribution: just an archive for experimental packages. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87lj57y4x3@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:19:55 +0200 Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: ... I don't recall the last time sid was broken so that manual intervention was needed to get the system running, but individual applications can have annoying bugs. I've been using Sid for years, and while it's usually perfectly usable, there are, occasionally, Really Bad Things that happen. The worst one that happened to me that I recall was this: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=491114 In my case, no X, no networking, and everything generally behaving mysteriously weirdly. That was more than two years ago, and I may not have been running apt-listbugs then. In any case, it was this list that saved me (thanks again, Sven!), although to get to the list, I had to fire up Windows. [I suppose that I really should keep some sort of stable installation handy, or at least a live CD]: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/msg01704.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/msg01705.html Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105151644.7cee4092.cele...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:19:55 +0200 Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: ... I don't recall the last time sid was broken so that manual intervention was needed to get the system running, but individual applications can have annoying bugs. Let's consider something like the kernel switch to the libata drivers, where you had to rewrite your /etc/fstab (assuming you weren't using UUIDs or labels) and other critical files due to the renaming of the device nodes. Someone who was doing ordinary stable upgrades would see the warnings in the release notes, but it was pretty easy to get bitten by this if you were just tracking Sid. This is a good illustration of another good piece of advice for anyone wanting to run Sid: you need to keep up with the general news and discourse in the community. When I got hit by the switch, I was aware of what to do because I follow this list, as well as some other sources of news, but a user who just wants things to work and doesn't have time / interest to follow the news might have experienced considerable frustration. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105152652.b18105f6.cele...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:50:08 +0100 Klistvud quotati...@aliceadsl.fr wrote: ... Among the distros I did try out - Knoppix, Ubuntu, OpenSuSE, Mandriva, and some minor ones - there is not a single one I'd be willing to revert to. I guess there's a reason I'm staying with Debian after all ;-) ... Ideological reasons, mostly ... DFSG ... and Debian being a community endeavor ... and having a particularly slow release schedule (yep, while many complain about that, I consider it as being one of Debian's strongest points; go figure) ... and being secure ... and I'm curious - are there good analyses of Debian's security record vis-a-vis other linux distros? I know that some of the BSD's have better reputations, but how does Debian compare to it's siblings? I do recall that horrible ssh / ssl mess from two and a half years ago ... Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105153457.c3bf0c73.cele...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
Celejar writes: Someone who was doing ordinary stable upgrades would see the warnings in the release notes, but it was pretty easy to get bitten by this if you were just tracking Sid. Which is why you should not track Sid at all. Since any DD can upload to it at any time (that is what unstable means) it is not guaranteed to be consistent at all times. Testing, on the other hand, is (supposedly) always consistent since packages cannot migrate to it unless all their dependencies are satisfied. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87hbfvy2ce@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: A question for the list:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:53:05 -0500 John Hasler jhas...@debian.org wrote: Celejar writes: Someone who was doing ordinary stable upgrades would see the warnings in the release notes, but it was pretty easy to get bitten by this if you were just tracking Sid. Which is why you should not track Sid at all. Since any DD can upload to it at any time (that is what unstable means) it is not guaranteed to be consistent at all times. Testing, on the other hand, is (supposedly) always consistent since packages cannot migrate to it unless all their dependencies are satisfied. I understand your point, but the problem I was referring to in my message had nothing to do with the consistency or inconsistency of the flavor's state. I had said that the kernel renaming of the device nodes could easily have rendered a system unbootable, and AFAIK, it would have been quite easy to get hit by that even when tracking Testing, or when following your suggestion of not constantly upgrading one's Sid installation. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105162716.48bbd590.cele...@gmail.com
Re: A question for the list:
ZephyrQ wrote: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? If Debian didn't exist it would be necessary to invent it. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: A question for the list:
On 11/04/2010 10:50 PM, ZephyrQ wrote: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? If I wanted the Debian style without Debian, I would use Ubuntu, after I modified it to look more like Debian--black letters on white menus screen, window con- trols on the top right, etc. (I have done that.) I installed first Debian and then Ubuntu, for a class I am taking. There was something that Debian wouldn't do, so they switched to Ubuntu. But I already was using PCLOS. One thing I really _don't_ like about Debian is its fear of the copyright. I really want Thunderbird and Firefox, with their familiar icons, on my screen, not the goofy clones that Debian has come up with. I tried some version of XFDE--I forget which distro it was on--and I could not put icons on the desktop. Period. So I put period to that GUI right then and there. I like to use icons for all the programs I use on a regular basis. Just like Windows. All the systems I use or have used allow that. I would never use anything else--might as well go back to DOS! I am still using PCLinxOs at the moment, and that's the one I would go with. It has a civilized version of KDE4--at least rev. 2010 does, I don't know about the two minor releases since. It has some of the advantages of Debian, like the Synaptic package manager, and a nice file browser--Dolphin. It works with synaptiks scratch-pad controller for laptops, which Debian and Ubuntu have eliminated in favor of something that doesn't work. Something about g-pointing-something I think it's called. I like KDE a bit better than GNOME --at least without all the transparency nonsense, and the weird window stuff that the late SuSEs and Kubuntu have. I looked at Kubuntu, while I was looking for a distro to replace SuSE, and I almost threw up. I was looking to replace SuSE 10.1, because it wouldn't play music; none of the SuSEs I have had ever would. I looked at Puppy, and Deb, and Ub, and PCLOS, and a couple of others, and I decided on PCLOS. It's not perfect--sometimes its mouse won't come back after hibernation, and I'm still trying to fix that. Also, the screensaver daemon dies unexpectedly sometimes, so I have to keep an eye on that. Other than these foibles, I am quite happy with this distro. BTW, I don't hate Windows, altho there are some things I really dislike in it. If I had to choose between Kubuntu and Windows--either XP or 7-- I'd go with Windows in a heartbeat! One must admit that with the s/w available to it, it can do some things easily that Linux can do only with difficulty, or in a few cases, not at all--altho that's changing. MS Word is only marginally better than OO, f'rinstance, but WordPerfect is better than both, and is no longer available in a Linux version. AutoCadLT does not come on Linux, but I've been fooling with QCad a bit, and it's pretty good, so far. Well, you asked. . . . --doug Blessed are the peacemakers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A. M. Greeley -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd3921a.5090...@optonline.net
Re: A question for the list:
In 4cd3921a.5090...@optonline.net, Doug wrote: On 11/04/2010 10:50 PM, ZephyrQ wrote: If you could not/did not use Debian (either Lenny, Squeeze, or Sid), which other distribution would you use and why? One thing I really _don't_ like about Debian is its fear of the copyright. I really want Thunderbird and Firefox, with their familiar icons, on my screen, not the goofy clones that Debian has come up with. It's not a fear. It's a reality. The Mozilla Foundation contacted Debian Developers and asked them to come into compliance on the trademark usage allowances that Mozilla provides. Debian's choices were: 1. Seek approval from the Mozilla Foundation for *all* patches. 2. Stop using the trademark. Choosing #1 basically results in firefox / thunderbird never getting into stable. Because the lifetime of a Debian release is longer that Mozilla is willing to support a version of firefox / thunderbird and Debian requires the ability to apply security updates for the lifetime of a release. Choosing #2 results in firefox / thunderbind being rebranded iceweasel / iceowl. They use the same source code as firefox / thunderbird, but they are configured with the an alternate branding. They may also have a few patches applied to them that may or may not be approved by Mozilla; you can check the debian/patches directory in the source package to see what is patched. Debian did not make the decision lightly or unilaterally. There is a third choice, I guess: Ship firefox / thunderbird in non-free. Support for non-free is best-effort, which basically means that if upstream is willing to fix it then the security team / maintainers will package it. This basically results in Debian stable's non-free containing software with known security vulnerabilities that Mozilla is unwilling to fix. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
