Re: Backup's to DVD
Papyrus? Clay Tablets? Personally, I'm a big fan of truly old school, tried-and-true methods - delay line, otherwise known as word of mouth. Just keep copies of those files bouncing around the net forever. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53385ff9.6050...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Backup's to DVD
As a Frisian, living at the North Sea: on clay, surrounded by reeds, I relished every single bit of spit between both long standing 'Multies' [multinationals] of the Antique. I am convinced, this poetic dispute will, in the long run, enliven even the fiercest 'Fachidiot' clinging ever tighter to his narrow subject of excellence. (Adorno's verdict: "After Auschwitz one can not write poems any more." .. was answered: "In truth, already before Auschwitz, Adorno couldn't write poems".) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140330145955.ga3...@fok01.laje.edewe.de
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 21/03/14 08:42, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Wed 19 Mar 2014 at 09:32:37 +, Curt wrote: > >> On 2014-03-19, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: >>> >>> As I've come to realise, sound advice for anything imortant. Even >>> then you can only work within the technology of the time. >>> >> I've come to realise that giving advice (sound or otherwise) is a >> safe activity, seeing that hardly anyone ever takes it (with >> apologies to C.G. Jung). >> >> But seriously an Ancient such as yourself must appreciate the irony >> of the modern world, now so concerned about safeguarding things >> for eternity, but seeming to produce almost nothing worth >> preserving beyond a second or two, which I suppose is the ultimate >> back-up strategy (create nothing of lasting value). > > Thank you for your perceptive comment, Curt. It means a lot when I > now find myself close to death. I am sad to not live (in our > calendar) to the Year of Jessie but cannot say missing out on the > accompanying enforced change to System D for our Hieroglyphic System > is something I will grieve about. > > The camel train is crossing the Taklamakan desert. The last watering > place was dry and the camels are staggering. Bentonite would have sealed that oasis. Cheap, simple, all-natural, non-toxic, and lasts forever. Have you heard of it? It's part of our extensive range of clay products. > The bricking was ineffective because they are all of the female > variety. How anyone who is employed by Virgin Desertways could make > such a mistake is beyond me. Perhaps if you'd paid them as handsomely as I had oh well, too late now. But - as any properous camel train driver will tell you, the female variant is a, um, cecum prompt sharply applied. > > I can envisage this to be my final missive. My money is on that being a fact. No hard feeling? It's just business (as I told the company pushing Beta "taypes"). But all's well that ends well - or pool in this instance. Death is not the end - be assured that we have a long-term position for you, standing in the same pool as Steve, forever beneath a shady tree loaded with luscious fruit. > Even if that poltroon Myceneaen Magic from that sheep-infestered > culture Don't forget grapes, basil, and the olives. > responds I doubt I have the strength to summon up a riposte. > Let him sew new corks onto the brim of his hat to ward off the advent > of the new technology; clay has had its day. New corks, new hats, and new range of products (thanks to a fire sale we've diversified our range of products to include "papyr"). > > To the OP: Use either CD or USB media and cross your fingers it will > last. > > And for the long term - print it on acid free stock. Eyes and scanners will be around for a long time (longer than papyrus anyway). Kind regards -- Clay - it's here to stay, the competition not so much -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/532b673f@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Wed 19 Mar 2014 at 09:32:37 +, Curt wrote: > On 2014-03-19, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > > > > As I've come to realise, sound advice for anything imortant. Even then > > you can only work within the technology of the time. > > > I've come to realise that giving advice (sound or otherwise) is a safe > activity, seeing that hardly anyone ever takes it (with apologies to > C.G. Jung). > > But seriously an Ancient such as yourself must appreciate the irony of > the modern world, now so concerned about safeguarding things for > eternity, but seeming to produce almost nothing worth preserving > beyond a second or two, which I suppose is the ultimate back-up strategy > (create nothing of lasting value). Thank you for your perceptive comment, Curt. It means a lot when I now find myself close to death. I am sad to not live (in our calendar) to the Year of Jessie but cannot say missing out on the accompanying enforced change to System D for our Hieroglyphic System is something I will grieve about. The camel train is crossing the Taklamakan desert. The last watering place was dry and the camels are staggering. The bricking was ineffective because they are all of the female variety. How anyone who is employed by Virgin Desertways could make such a mistake is beyond me. I can envisage this to be my final missive. Even if that poltroon Myceneaen Magic from that sheep-infestered culture responds I doubt I have the strength to summon up a riposte. Let him sew new corks onto the brim of his hat to ward off the advent of the new technology; clay has had its day. To the OP: Use either CD or USB media and cross your fingers it will last. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140320214217.ga4...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 2014-03-19, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > > As I've come to realise, sound advice for anything imortant. Even then > you can only work within the technology of the time. > I've come to realise that giving advice (sound or otherwise) is a safe activity, seeing that hardly anyone ever takes it (with apologies to C.G. Jung). But seriously an Ancient such as yourself must appreciate the irony of the modern world, now so concerned about safeguarding things for eternity, but seeming to produce almost nothing worth preserving beyond a second or two, which I suppose is the ultimate back-up strategy (create nothing of lasting value). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/slrnliip0b.2gp.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Wed 19 Mar 2014 at 11:13:15 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > OK - it 'may' have been mostly humour for the sake of humour (I can't > speak for PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGY, at least until the lawyers have finalised > our takeover of their business). You think we are going to be the pushover Tauris was recently? Dream on. > Any backup strategy should be based on "how much will it hurt if I lose > it", and include careful consideration about *how* you will restore it > when you need it[*2]. As PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGY notes - recovering the data > is of little use if the knowledge, hardware, and software needed to make > information out of the data when that backup becomes a worthwhile > investment. i.e. if you backup WORM drives you'll need to separately > backup the software, hardware, and necessary manuals. CDs, and even > Blueray and magnetic/Flash drives won't be supported forever. On a serious note (not that everything in this subthread hasn't had serious aspects): Thirty years ago I backed up a doctoral thesis to some 5.25 inch floppies. The thesis was written on a BBC B computer. Today I possess neither the machine nor a recollection of the primitive word precessor used to write the thesis. Assuming the media (which have remained undisturbed in a drawer all that time) are intact I still have the problem of sourcing the machinery required to read them. How I wish I had been aware of Latex at the time; it might have made the recovery process easier. Mr Queue's concern is photos. I own up to still using a 35mm film camera. The difficulty in obtaining film and getting a roll developed is outweighed in my mind by having the positives and negatives. > As a general rule - a single backup strategy is not as useful as > multiple separate ones. Risk and "how much will it hurt" should be the > determining factors in deciding how, and how often, is appropriate. As I've come to realise, sound advice for anything imortant. Even then you can only work within the technology of the time. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140319020253.gn26...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 11:49:13AM -0400, Gary Dale wrote: > On 16/03/14 05:54 PM, Mr Queue wrote: > >Anyone doing anything interesting to backup data to DVD's? > > > >https://packages.debian.org/sid/dkopp > > > >^^ Looks interesting and overall it's a pretty simple task. Suppose > >I could even use tar and split but just curious what others may be doing > >currently. > > > >FWIW, I'm mostly concerned with cloning my current backups of family > >photos to different media for peace of mind. I already have a pair > >of backup servers in different physical locations but want to add some > >DVD's into the mix. Those are hard to rm. ;) > > I've been using BD-RE for years to make backups and BD-R for > archives. It works reasonably well providing that you're not backing > up more than 25G. BD-REs do develop problems over time so you need > to replace them when they wear out. > You can create tar files with a 25G limit if you want, using the --tape-length parameter. See http://www.gnu.org/software/tar/manual/html_node/Multi_002dVolume-Archives.html -Rob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 19/03/14 08:03, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 20:09:03 +0400, Reco wrote: > >> Can you guys please take the reminder of this enlightening >> discussion to d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org? > > My Dear Reco and fellow subscribers to this esteemed List, Especially the esteemed subscribers to this list > > My caravan departure has been delayed. There is a security issue and > the camels need bricking (details available on request, but you > really don't want to know). > > I realise (and I'm sure Myceneaen Magic does too) that we have let > our commercial interests override our responsibility to help and > advise users of the Debian OS. The thread drifted after I posted a > serious comment about the longevity of stored data on CD, DVD and USB > media. I realise now it could have been couched in better terms and > promise to up the standard of my responses and make amends in > future. > > We let our emotions dictate our responses. I suspect some may have taken the humour at face value, when it was simply a humorous highlighting of some of the overlooked (evaluation) issues involved in deciding a suitable backup strategy. OK - it 'may' have been mostly humour for the sake of humour (I can't speak for PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGY, at least until the lawyers have finalised our takeover of their business). > In spite of our difference I think his product (lasting a proven 5000 > years) and mine (good for at least 3000 years) are both > top-of-the-range when you want the integrity of your data to be > inviolate for many generations. > > So Reco, my friend, how do CD, DVD and USB media compare? We would > welcome your input on this; will my family photographs or the deeds > to my house be viewable on these modern devices in a thousand years > time? One consideration not included in many backup evaluation matrices is a complete evaluation of the risk. Ralf has noted that solely relying on on-site backups is, um, less than optimal (oxymoronic?). On-line backups have major failings too:- ;you're relying on an entity you've never met, often in another country subject to different laws, with unknown[*1] media management and backup strategies. ;when you *need* that on-line backup restored where did you put the contacts, account details, and recovery tools? [*1] My experience is that claims and assumed expectations don't always match reality. Any backup strategy should be based on "how much will it hurt if I lose it", and include careful consideration about *how* you will restore it when you need it[*2]. As PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGY notes - recovering the data is of little use if the knowledge, hardware, and software needed to make information out of the data when that backup becomes a worthwhile investment. i.e. if you backup WORM drives you'll need to separately backup the software, hardware, and necessary manuals. CDs, and even Blueray and magnetic/Flash drives won't be supported forever. As a general rule - a single backup strategy is not as useful as multiple separate ones. Risk and "how much will it hurt" should be the determining factors in deciding how, and how often, is appropriate. Now that we've acquired PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGY (at a knock-down price plus a small consideration to the camel train company) I'd suggest if the information is "heirloom" value, consider printing it on acid-free paper and placing it in a bank vault. [*2]too often we get calls from customers who neglected to retain a Linear B fluent staff member. > > (You may omit any discussion about the quantum energy changes > occuring spontaneously in magnetic and optical materials. Mentioning > Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle would also allow Myceneaen Magic > to start on about volcanic action and clay stability, so it is better > you keep quiet about it). :) And let's say nothing of acidic papyrus. Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform -- The enemy of ignorance and faith is knowledge and humour -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5328e11b.10...@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
Hi. On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 21:03:17 + PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > I realise (and I'm sure Myceneaen Magic does too) that we have let our > commercial interests override our responsibility to help and advise > users of the Debian OS. The thread drifted after I posted a serious > comment about the longevity of stored data on CD, DVD and USB media. I > realise now it could have been couched in better terms and promise to > up the standard of my responses and make amends in future. Ok, so, we're back on the track. Good. > So Reco, my friend, how do CD, DVD and USB media compare? We would > welcome your input on this; will my family photographs or the deeds to > my house be viewable on these modern devices in a thousand years time? CD - you can read the thing after it gathered dust for 10 years. Personal experience for both CD-R and CD-RW. An amount of information can be stored is unreasonable by today's standards. DVD - you can read the thing after it gathered dust for 5 years. Personal experience for both DVD-R and DVD-RW. An amount of information can be stored is unreasonable by today's standards. BD - no personal experience with those. USB drives - ok, but will require periodic poweron/poweroff cycle. MTBF is less as of the modern HDD, which is not much again. So, for a long-term storage one is basically left with the same thing as 20 years ago, i.e. - tapes. LTO5s go for $10 each on eBay, providing you with 1.5Tb per tape. A cost of LTO drive is painful somewhat ($1500 ), require an additional SAS or SCSI controller, but this is one-time investment basically. Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140319021800.b83bb2d1b7809ef574b24...@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 20:09:03 +0400, Reco wrote: > Can you guys please take the reminder of this enlightening discussion to > d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org? My Dear Reco and fellow subscribers to this esteemed List, My caravan departure has been delayed. There is a security issue and the camels need bricking (details available on request, but you really don't want to know). I realise (and I'm sure Myceneaen Magic does too) that we have let our commercial interests override our responsibility to help and advise users of the Debian OS. The thread drifted after I posted a serious comment about the longevity of stored data on CD, DVD and USB media. I realise now it could have been couched in better terms and promise to up the standard of my responses and make amends in future. We let our emotions dictate our responses. In spite of our difference I think his product (lasting a proven 5000 years) and mine (good for at least 3000 years) are both top-of-the-range when you want the integrity of your data to be inviolate for many generations. So Reco, my friend, how do CD, DVD and USB media compare? We would welcome your input on this; will my family photographs or the deeds to my house be viewable on these modern devices in a thousand years time? (You may omit any discussion about the quantum energy changes occuring spontaneously in magnetic and optical materials. Mentioning Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle would also allow Myceneaen Magic to start on about volcanic action and clay stability, so it is better you keep quiet about it). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140318210317.gm26...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Tue, 2014-03-18 at 20:09 +0400, Reco wrote: > Can you guys please take the reminder of this enlightening discussion to > d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org? Or better off-list ;), instead of using D-community-offtopic? Some of us are still learning, but we already distinguish, we send some mails to Debian user, others the OT list and other mails are off-_all_-lists, those are private mails. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an offence. I'm far away from being good in deciding what belongs to Debian user, to the OT list or what should be a PM. I make mistakes much too often myself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1395159839.9232.320.camel@archlinux
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:08:05 + PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Wed 19 Mar 2014 at 01:16:58 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > > > That's just the sort of blaggards I'd expect a fly-by night purveyor of > > fickle products to associate with. > > This "fly-by night" would really like to do that now but in response to > an urgent message from our representative in Edo I have to catch the > next caravan there. The vast house building project we are involved in > requires my immediate attention. > > On the journey I'll reflect on my conversation with the man with feet of > clay and perhaps resume it when I return in five years time - if you are > still in business. Can you guys please take the reminder of this enlightening discussion to d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org? Reco -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140318200903.dadb400928515eb39542e...@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Wed 19 Mar 2014 at 01:16:58 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > That's just the sort of blaggards I'd expect a fly-by night purveyor of > fickle products to associate with. This "fly-by night" would really like to do that now but in response to an urgent message from our representative in Edo I have to catch the next caravan there. The vast house building project we are involved in requires my immediate attention. On the journey I'll reflect on my conversation with the man with feet of clay and perhaps resume it when I return in five years time - if you are still in business. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140318150805.gk26...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 19/03/14 00:46, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 21:50:18 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > >> On 18/03/14 20:54, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: >>> On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 11:34:29 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: >>> On 18/03/14 11:02, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 08:52:14 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > >> On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: >>> On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: >>> The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. >>> >>> Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and >>> DVDs. Why anyone should entrust their data to such volatile >>> media is beyond our comprehension. >>> >>> We are an very old, established company who operate in the >>> Dead Sea area of the Middle East. >>> >>> Our product has a proven record and is used by many >>> discerning clients who require the data they have entrusted >>> to us to be accessible at any time. We offer a 3000 year >>> guarantee that the material we use is suitable for long term >>> storagei. >>> >>> We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. >>> Employees who do are weeded out by our Quality Control >>> Section and transferred to our sister company, Pyramid >>> Enterprises PLC. >>> >>> Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there >>> is no compromise in this area of our operations. Even >>> shepherd boys and goats are actively dissuaded from entering >>> within a 10 km radius of our operations. >>> >>> Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun >>> have many, many good things to say about our services. >>> Unfortunately, they are offline at present so are unable to >>> answer your queries. >>> >>> Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. >>> >>> >> >> Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to >> capitalize on this list's readership by pushing unproven >> technology. A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell >> bolders as portable? >> >> Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. Always have been >> been, always will be. >> >> Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform >> >> >> -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! > > > It's always the same; some attitudes never change. Introduce the > most exciting invention since that of the abacus (thank you Jobs > of Memphis) and some Stone Age Old Worlder chips in with a plea > to continue the depletion of one of the Earth's non-renewable > resources. > > Ever tried transporting the Epic of Gilgamesh from Babylon to > Thebes in tablet form? Let me tell you, it's horrendous. >> >> Papyrus is the favoured medium of smugglers and other ne'er-do-wells. >> We're an honest company catering to the needs of honest, upright and >> enterprising customers. >> >> All good, informed consumers know the TSA never found a tourist trying >> to smuggle a tablet onto a barge. >> >> > > Can't remember the number of donkeys and carts it took but the > feed bill was astonomical. As for customs at the borders, they > though we were importing buiding materials so the bribes mounted > up. And don't have an accident; sticking the broken pieces back > together is no fun, even after the pain in your toes has worn > off. > > Papyrus: just a few sheets which can be rolled up and put in > your pocket. Reading it while riding on the back of a camel is > also a pleasant way of passing the time on a long journey. > > Someone who sold blank tablets once said 640 is enough for > anyone. We envisage information as unlimited and we're expanding, > with branches opened recently in Athens and Rome. Tomorrow the > world! > > It 'sounds' very attractive... until the donkey eats your backups. Tablets - just do it! (no ink required) For a limited time only we'll throw in not one, but two free reeds with every order from debian user subscribers. We built our reputation on tablets (and our office). They're a solid investment in time proven technology. You can't build anything substantial with papyrus. There's only one thing it's good for and that's not writing on - but it does come on a roll. -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! >>> >>> Are these tablets the same ones which were used to build this tower >>> at Babel? We all know what happened there. Siri. A beta version. It had everyone talking, but the legend lives on. >>> You'll have to do better >>> if you want to play with the big boys. >> >> And we all know what happened to the Tower of Papyrus. >> >>> >>> Our R&D Department is also well ahead of you in devising a new >>> product. Innovation means new markets; our o
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:54:48 -0500 Mr Queue wrote: > Anyone doing anything interesting to backup data to DVD's? > > https://packages.debian.org/sid/dkopp > > ^^ Looks interesting and overall it's a pretty simple task. Suppose > I could even use tar and split but just curious what others may be doing > currently. > > FWIW, I'm mostly concerned with cloning my current backups of family > photos to different media for peace of mind. I already have a pair > of backup servers in different physical locations but want to add some > DVD's into the mix. Those are hard to rm. ;) > > Not sure what's happened to this list, used to be a great place. Ralf, Steve, Jonathan, Scott, and Gary: Thank you for your contributions. I'm now ignoring my own thread. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140318090052.4eefb...@mrqueue.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 21:50:18 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > On 18/03/14 20:54, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 11:34:29 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > > > >> On 18/03/14 11:02, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > >>> On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 08:52:14 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > >>> > On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > > On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > > > >> The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > > > > Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and > > DVDs. Why anyone should entrust their data to such volatile > > media is beyond our comprehension. > > > > We are an very old, established company who operate in the > > Dead Sea area of the Middle East. > > > > Our product has a proven record and is used by many > > discerning clients who require the data they have entrusted > > to us to be accessible at any time. We offer a 3000 year > > guarantee that the material we use is suitable for long term > > storagei. > > > > We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. > > Employees who do are weeded out by our Quality Control > > Section and transferred to our sister company, Pyramid > > Enterprises PLC. > > > > Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there > > is no compromise in this area of our operations. Even > > shepherd boys and goats are actively dissuaded from entering > > within a 10 km radius of our operations. > > > > Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun > > have many, many good things to say about our services. > > Unfortunately, they are offline at present so are unable to > > answer your queries. > > > > Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. > > > > > > Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to > capitalize on this list's readership by pushing unproven > technology. A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell > bolders as portable? > > Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. Always have been > been, always will be. > > Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform > > > -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! > >>> > >>> > >>> It's always the same; some attitudes never change. Introduce the > >>> most exciting invention since that of the abacus (thank you Jobs > >>> of Memphis) and some Stone Age Old Worlder chips in with a plea > >>> to continue the depletion of one of the Earth's non-renewable > >>> resources. > >>> > >>> Ever tried transporting the Epic of Gilgamesh from Babylon to > >>> Thebes in tablet form? Let me tell you, it's horrendous. > > Papyrus is the favoured medium of smugglers and other ne'er-do-wells. > We're an honest company catering to the needs of honest, upright and > enterprising customers. > > All good, informed consumers know the TSA never found a tourist trying > to smuggle a tablet onto a barge. > > > >>> > >>> Can't remember the number of donkeys and carts it took but the > >>> feed bill was astonomical. As for customs at the borders, they > >>> though we were importing buiding materials so the bribes mounted > >>> up. And don't have an accident; sticking the broken pieces back > >>> together is no fun, even after the pain in your toes has worn > >>> off. > >>> > >>> Papyrus: just a few sheets which can be rolled up and put in > >>> your pocket. Reading it while riding on the back of a camel is > >>> also a pleasant way of passing the time on a long journey. > >>> > >>> Someone who sold blank tablets once said 640 is enough for > >>> anyone. We envisage information as unlimited and we're expanding, > >>> with branches opened recently in Athens and Rome. Tomorrow the > >>> world! > >>> > >>> > >> > >> It 'sounds' very attractive... until the donkey eats your backups. > >> > >> Tablets - just do it! (no ink required) > >> > >> For a limited time only we'll throw in not one, but two free reeds > >> with every order from debian user subscribers. > >> > >> We built our reputation on tablets (and our office). They're a > >> solid investment in time proven technology. You can't build > >> anything substantial with papyrus. There's only one thing it's good > >> for and that's not writing on - but it does come on a roll. > >> > >> > >> -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! > >> > > > > Are these tablets the same ones which were used to build this tower > > at Babel? We all know what happened there. You'll have to do better > > if you want to play with the big boys. > > And we all know what happened to the Tower of Papyrus. > > > > > Our R&D Department is also well ahead of you in devising a new > > product. Innovation means new markets; our objective is 5 in every > > home in the known world. Let's see you do *that* with clay (wet or > > sun-b
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 18/03/14 20:54, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 11:34:29 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > >> On 18/03/14 11:02, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: >>> On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 08:52:14 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: >>> On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > >> The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > > Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and > DVDs. Why anyone should entrust their data to such volatile > media is beyond our comprehension. > > We are an very old, established company who operate in the > Dead Sea area of the Middle East. > > Our product has a proven record and is used by many > discerning clients who require the data they have entrusted > to us to be accessible at any time. We offer a 3000 year > guarantee that the material we use is suitable for long term > storagei. > > We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. > Employees who do are weeded out by our Quality Control > Section and transferred to our sister company, Pyramid > Enterprises PLC. > > Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there > is no compromise in this area of our operations. Even > shepherd boys and goats are actively dissuaded from entering > within a 10 km radius of our operations. > > Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun > have many, many good things to say about our services. > Unfortunately, they are offline at present so are unable to > answer your queries. > > Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. > > Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to capitalize on this list's readership by pushing unproven technology. A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell bolders as portable? Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. Always have been been, always will be. Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! >>> >>> >>> It's always the same; some attitudes never change. Introduce the >>> most exciting invention since that of the abacus (thank you Jobs >>> of Memphis) and some Stone Age Old Worlder chips in with a plea >>> to continue the depletion of one of the Earth's non-renewable >>> resources. >>> >>> Ever tried transporting the Epic of Gilgamesh from Babylon to >>> Thebes in tablet form? Let me tell you, it's horrendous. Papyrus is the favoured medium of smugglers and other ne'er-do-wells. We're an honest company catering to the needs of honest, upright and enterprising customers. All good, informed consumers know the TSA never found a tourist trying to smuggle a tablet onto a barge. >>> >>> Can't remember the number of donkeys and carts it took but the >>> feed bill was astonomical. As for customs at the borders, they >>> though we were importing buiding materials so the bribes mounted >>> up. And don't have an accident; sticking the broken pieces back >>> together is no fun, even after the pain in your toes has worn >>> off. >>> >>> Papyrus: just a few sheets which can be rolled up and put in >>> your pocket. Reading it while riding on the back of a camel is >>> also a pleasant way of passing the time on a long journey. >>> >>> Someone who sold blank tablets once said 640 is enough for >>> anyone. We envisage information as unlimited and we're expanding, >>> with branches opened recently in Athens and Rome. Tomorrow the >>> world! >>> >>> >> >> It 'sounds' very attractive... until the donkey eats your backups. >> >> Tablets - just do it! (no ink required) >> >> For a limited time only we'll throw in not one, but two free reeds >> with every order from debian user subscribers. >> >> We built our reputation on tablets (and our office). They're a >> solid investment in time proven technology. You can't build >> anything substantial with papyrus. There's only one thing it's good >> for and that's not writing on - but it does come on a roll. >> >> >> -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! >> > > Are these tablets the same ones which were used to build this tower > at Babel? We all know what happened there. You'll have to do better > if you want to play with the big boys. And we all know what happened to the Tower of Papyrus. > > Our R&D Department is also well ahead of you in devising a new > product. Innovation means new markets; our objective is 5 in every > home in the known world. Let's see you do *that* with clay (wet or > sun-baked). > > Wake up and smell the grass. Your product is ideal for the privy, but your other claims, like the product are flimsy. > > P.S. You appear to have a fixation on donkeys and goats. Medical > help is available to deal with the condition. That's rich coming from a company who fails to tell
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 11:34:29 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > On 18/03/14 11:02, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 08:52:14 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > > > >> On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > >>> On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > >>> > The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > >>> > >>> Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and DVDs. Why > >>> anyone should entrust their data to such volatile media is beyond our > >>> comprehension. > >>> > >>> We are an very old, established company who operate in the Dead Sea area > >>> of the Middle East. > >>> > >>> Our product has a proven record and is used by many discerning clients > >>> who require the data they have entrusted to us to be accessible at any > >>> time. We offer a 3000 year guarantee that the material we use is > >>> suitable for long term storagei. > >>> > >>> We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. Employees > >>> who do are weeded out by our Quality Control Section and transferred to > >>> our sister company, Pyramid Enterprises PLC. > >>> > >>> Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there is no > >>> compromise in this area of our operations. Even shepherd boys and goats > >>> are actively dissuaded from entering within a 10 km radius of our > >>> operations. > >>> > >>> Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun have many, > >>> many good things to say about our services. Unfortunately, they are > >>> offline at present so are unable to answer your queries. > >>> > >>> Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to capitalize on this > >> list's readership by pushing unproven technology. > >> A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell bolders as portable? > >> > >> Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. > >> Always have been been, always will be. > >> > >> Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! > > > > > > It's always the same; some attitudes never change. Introduce the most > > exciting invention since that of the abacus (thank you Jobs of Memphis) > > and some Stone Age Old Worlder chips in with a plea to continue the > > depletion of one of the Earth's non-renewable resources. > > > > Ever tried transporting the Epic of Gilgamesh from Babylon to Thebes in > > tablet form? Let me tell you, it's horrendous. > > > > Can't remember the number of donkeys and carts it took but the feed bill > > was astonomical. As for customs at the borders, they though we were > > importing buiding materials so the bribes mounted up. And don't have an > > accident; sticking the broken pieces back together is no fun, even after > > the pain in your toes has worn off. > > > > Papyrus: just a few sheets which can be rolled up and put in your > > pocket. Reading it while riding on the back of a camel is also a > > pleasant way of passing the time on a long journey. > > > > Someone who sold blank tablets once said 640 is enough for anyone. We > > envisage information as unlimited and we're expanding, with branches > > opened recently in Athens and Rome. Tomorrow the world! > > > > > > It 'sounds' very attractive... until the donkey eats your backups. > > Tablets - just do it! (no ink required) > > For a limited time only we'll throw in not one, but two free reeds with > every order from debian user subscribers. > > We built our reputation on tablets (and our office). They're a solid > investment in time proven technology. You can't build anything > substantial with papyrus. There's only one thing it's good for and > that's not writing on - but it does come on a roll. > > > -- > Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! > Are these tablets the same ones which were used to build this tower at Babel? We all know what happened there. You'll have to do better if you want to play with the big boys. Our R&D Department is also well ahead of you in devising a new product. Innovation means new markets; our objective is 5 in every home in the known world. Let's see you do *that* with clay (wet or sun-baked). Wake up and smell the grass. P.S. You appear to have a fixation on donkeys and goats. Medical help is available to deal with the condition. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140318095451.gi26...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 18/03/14 11:02, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 08:52:14 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > >> On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: >>> On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: >>> The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. >>> >>> Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and DVDs. Why >>> anyone should entrust their data to such volatile media is beyond our >>> comprehension. >>> >>> We are an very old, established company who operate in the Dead Sea area >>> of the Middle East. >>> >>> Our product has a proven record and is used by many discerning clients >>> who require the data they have entrusted to us to be accessible at any >>> time. We offer a 3000 year guarantee that the material we use is >>> suitable for long term storagei. >>> >>> We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. Employees >>> who do are weeded out by our Quality Control Section and transferred to >>> our sister company, Pyramid Enterprises PLC. >>> >>> Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there is no >>> compromise in this area of our operations. Even shepherd boys and goats >>> are actively dissuaded from entering within a 10 km radius of our >>> operations. >>> >>> Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun have many, >>> many good things to say about our services. Unfortunately, they are >>> offline at present so are unable to answer your queries. >>> >>> Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. >>> >>> >> >> Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to capitalize on this >> list's readership by pushing unproven technology. >> A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell bolders as portable? >> >> Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. >> Always have been been, always will be. >> >> Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform >> >> >> -- >> Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! > > > It's always the same; some attitudes never change. Introduce the most > exciting invention since that of the abacus (thank you Jobs of Memphis) > and some Stone Age Old Worlder chips in with a plea to continue the > depletion of one of the Earth's non-renewable resources. > > Ever tried transporting the Epic of Gilgamesh from Babylon to Thebes in > tablet form? Let me tell you, it's horrendous. > > Can't remember the number of donkeys and carts it took but the feed bill > was astonomical. As for customs at the borders, they though we were > importing buiding materials so the bribes mounted up. And don't have an > accident; sticking the broken pieces back together is no fun, even after > the pain in your toes has worn off. > > Papyrus: just a few sheets which can be rolled up and put in your > pocket. Reading it while riding on the back of a camel is also a > pleasant way of passing the time on a long journey. > > Someone who sold blank tablets once said 640 is enough for anyone. We > envisage information as unlimited and we're expanding, with branches > opened recently in Athens and Rome. Tomorrow the world! > > It 'sounds' very attractive... until the donkey eats your backups. Tablets - just do it! (no ink required) For a limited time only we'll throw in not one, but two free reeds with every order from debian user subscribers. We built our reputation on tablets (and our office). They're a solid investment in time proven technology. You can't build anything substantial with papyrus. There's only one thing it's good for and that's not writing on - but it does come on a roll. -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53279495.4050...@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Tue 18 Mar 2014 at 08:52:14 +1100, Myceneaen Magic wrote: > On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > > On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > > > >> The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > > > > Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and DVDs. Why > > anyone should entrust their data to such volatile media is beyond our > > comprehension. > > > > We are an very old, established company who operate in the Dead Sea area > > of the Middle East. > > > > Our product has a proven record and is used by many discerning clients > > who require the data they have entrusted to us to be accessible at any > > time. We offer a 3000 year guarantee that the material we use is > > suitable for long term storagei. > > > > We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. Employees > > who do are weeded out by our Quality Control Section and transferred to > > our sister company, Pyramid Enterprises PLC. > > > > Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there is no > > compromise in this area of our operations. Even shepherd boys and goats > > are actively dissuaded from entering within a 10 km radius of our > > operations. > > > > Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun have many, > > many good things to say about our services. Unfortunately, they are > > offline at present so are unable to answer your queries. > > > > Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. > > > > > > Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to capitalize on this > list's readership by pushing unproven technology. > A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell bolders as portable? > > Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. > Always have been been, always will be. > > Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform > > > -- > Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! It's always the same; some attitudes never change. Introduce the most exciting invention since that of the abacus (thank you Jobs of Memphis) and some Stone Age Old Worlder chips in with a plea to continue the depletion of one of the Earth's non-renewable resources. Ever tried transporting the Epic of Gilgamesh from Babylon to Thebes in tablet form? Let me tell you, it's horrendous. Can't remember the number of donkeys and carts it took but the feed bill was astonomical. As for customs at the borders, they though we were importing buiding materials so the bribes mounted up. And don't have an accident; sticking the broken pieces back together is no fun, even after the pain in your toes has worn off. Papyrus: just a few sheets which can be rolled up and put in your pocket. Reading it while riding on the back of a camel is also a pleasant way of passing the time on a long journey. Someone who sold blank tablets once said 640 is enough for anyone. We envisage information as unlimited and we're expanding, with branches opened recently in Athens and Rome. Tomorrow the world! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140318000221.gh26...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 18/03/14 06:41, PAPYRUS TECHNOLOGIES wrote: > On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > >> The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > > Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and DVDs. Why > anyone should entrust their data to such volatile media is beyond our > comprehension. > > We are an very old, established company who operate in the Dead Sea area > of the Middle East. > > Our product has a proven record and is used by many discerning clients > who require the data they have entrusted to us to be accessible at any > time. We offer a 3000 year guarantee that the material we use is > suitable for long term storagei. > > We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. Employees > who do are weeded out by our Quality Control Section and transferred to > our sister company, Pyramid Enterprises PLC. > > Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there is no > compromise in this area of our operations. Even shepherd boys and goats > are actively dissuaded from entering within a 10 km radius of our > operations. > > Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun have many, > many good things to say about our services. Unfortunately, they are > offline at present so are unable to answer your queries. > > Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. > > Yet another desperate attempt by a failing company to capitalize on this list's readership by pushing unproven technology. A passing fad - what next? Asterix trying to sell bolders as portable? Get with it - tablets are the only way to go. Always have been been, always will be. Yours without wax, Proto Cuneiform -- Clay - it's here to stay and it's goat-proof! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53276e8e@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon 17 Mar 2014 at 17:51:15 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. Well observered, Sir. The same might be said for CDs and DVDs. Why anyone should entrust their data to such volatile media is beyond our comprehension. We are an very old, established company who operate in the Dead Sea area of the Middle East. Our product has a proven record and is used by many discerning clients who require the data they have entrusted to us to be accessible at any time. We offer a 3000 year guarantee that the material we use is suitable for long term storagei. We have scribes who rarely mistake 1s for 0s or vice versa. Employees who do are weeded out by our Quality Control Section and transferred to our sister company, Pyramid Enterprises PLC. Security of your data is of paramount importance to us; there is no compromise in this area of our operations. Even shepherd boys and goats are actively dissuaded from entering within a 10 km radius of our operations. Our distinguised clients Nefertiti, Isaiah and Tutankhamun have many, many good things to say about our services. Unfortunately, they are offline at present so are unable to answer your queries. Forget the Cloud - choose the Cave. You know it makes sense. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140317194155.gg26...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 19:11 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 18:50 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 17:51 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > > > CDs and DVDs are physically different media than CD R and DVD R which > > > are in turn different from CD RW and DVD RW. CDs will last a long time, > > > as they have a layer of physically dented metal between slabs of > > > plastic. But you can't press one yourself. For anecdotes, I have some > > > pushing 30 years that play but I don't have MD5 checksums or anything to > > > verify them. > > > > > > I've had some CD R last only a few years, starting from the date of > > > manufacture not date of burn. The claim is 5 to 10 years, from date of > > > manufacture, but I have yet to see a date on the packages. CD R uses a > > > layer of dye which is then burned opaque. Those with higher quality > > > dyes should last longer before data loss begins but the dyes oxidize > > > over time and the rate depends on storage conditions and atmosphere. > > > About the only advantage is that they cannot be re-written so, while > > > they last, can serve as proof or evidence if a proper chain of custody > > > is also maintained. > > > > > > CD RW is more complex having a phase-changing layer but max out at a > > > theoretical 25 years under ideal storage and handling conditions, > > > starting from quality manufacturing. > > > > > > See: > > > http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4.html > > > > > > The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > > > > I made the best experiences with DVD-RAM. _When_ ever it was possible to > > write to a DVD-RAM the data was safe, _but_ many DVD-RAMs were broken, I > > payed a lot of money and the new once were already unusable, very often > > neither Linux nor Windows was able to write data to DVD-RAM or it needed > > hours just to write 1 KiB. And assumed you never ever will experience > > writing issues, when using DVD-RAM, what are 4.7 GB good for? How often > > will you split your tar files? > > PS: > > Once the data is written, everything is fine. Reading DVD-RAM isn't an > issue. > > DVD-RAM is opto-magnetical. The magnetical layer only could be changed, > after optical heat allows this. DVD-RAM can be used the way a HDD is > used, no burning software is needed. Yes, it's just a rough explanation ;), not a perfect one ;). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1395080106.9232.223.camel@archlinux
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 18:50 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 17:51 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > > CDs and DVDs are physically different media than CD R and DVD R which > > are in turn different from CD RW and DVD RW. CDs will last a long time, > > as they have a layer of physically dented metal between slabs of > > plastic. But you can't press one yourself. For anecdotes, I have some > > pushing 30 years that play but I don't have MD5 checksums or anything to > > verify them. > > > > I've had some CD R last only a few years, starting from the date of > > manufacture not date of burn. The claim is 5 to 10 years, from date of > > manufacture, but I have yet to see a date on the packages. CD R uses a > > layer of dye which is then burned opaque. Those with higher quality > > dyes should last longer before data loss begins but the dyes oxidize > > over time and the rate depends on storage conditions and atmosphere. > > About the only advantage is that they cannot be re-written so, while > > they last, can serve as proof or evidence if a proper chain of custody > > is also maintained. > > > > CD RW is more complex having a phase-changing layer but max out at a > > theoretical 25 years under ideal storage and handling conditions, > > starting from quality manufacturing. > > > > See: > > http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4.html > > > > The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. > > I made the best experiences with DVD-RAM. _When_ ever it was possible to > write to a DVD-RAM the data was safe, _but_ many DVD-RAMs were broken, I > payed a lot of money and the new once were already unusable, very often > neither Linux nor Windows was able to write data to DVD-RAM or it needed > hours just to write 1 KiB. And assumed you never ever will experience > writing issues, when using DVD-RAM, what are 4.7 GB good for? How often > will you split your tar files? PS: Once the data is written, everything is fine. Reading DVD-RAM isn't an issue. DVD-RAM is opto-magnetical. The magnetical layer only could be changed, after optical heat allows this. DVD-RAM can be used the way a HDD is used, no burning software is needed. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1395079893.9232.221.camel@archlinux
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 17:51 +0200, Lars Noodén wrote: > CDs and DVDs are physically different media than CD R and DVD R which > are in turn different from CD RW and DVD RW. CDs will last a long time, > as they have a layer of physically dented metal between slabs of > plastic. But you can't press one yourself. For anecdotes, I have some > pushing 30 years that play but I don't have MD5 checksums or anything to > verify them. > > I've had some CD R last only a few years, starting from the date of > manufacture not date of burn. The claim is 5 to 10 years, from date of > manufacture, but I have yet to see a date on the packages. CD R uses a > layer of dye which is then burned opaque. Those with higher quality > dyes should last longer before data loss begins but the dyes oxidize > over time and the rate depends on storage conditions and atmosphere. > About the only advantage is that they cannot be re-written so, while > they last, can serve as proof or evidence if a proper chain of custody > is also maintained. > > CD RW is more complex having a phase-changing layer but max out at a > theoretical 25 years under ideal storage and handling conditions, > starting from quality manufacturing. > > See: > http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4.html > > The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. I made the best experiences with DVD-RAM. _When_ ever it was possible to write to a DVD-RAM the data was safe, _but_ many DVD-RAMs were broken, I payed a lot of money and the new once were already unusable, very often neither Linux nor Windows was able to write data to DVD-RAM or it needed hours just to write 1 KiB. And assumed you never ever will experience writing issues, when using DVD-RAM, what are 4.7 GB good for? How often will you split your tar files? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1395078648.9232.215.camel@archlinux
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 03/17/2014 05:06 PM, Steve Litt of Troubleshooters.Com wrote: ... > So far, I haven't had readability problems on old CDs and DVDs. > Blu-Rays seem a little squirrelly over time, but CDs and DVDs seem > readable for many years. ... > 3) Magnetic disks can be (accidentally) erased. Not so with write-once >optical media. ... CDs and DVDs are physically different media than CD R and DVD R which are in turn different from CD RW and DVD RW. CDs will last a long time, as they have a layer of physically dented metal between slabs of plastic. But you can't press one yourself. For anecdotes, I have some pushing 30 years that play but I don't have MD5 checksums or anything to verify them. I've had some CD R last only a few years, starting from the date of manufacture not date of burn. The claim is 5 to 10 years, from date of manufacture, but I have yet to see a date on the packages. CD R uses a layer of dye which is then burned opaque. Those with higher quality dyes should last longer before data loss begins but the dyes oxidize over time and the rate depends on storage conditions and atmosphere. About the only advantage is that they cannot be re-written so, while they last, can serve as proof or evidence if a proper chain of custody is also maintained. CD RW is more complex having a phase-changing layer but max out at a theoretical 25 years under ideal storage and handling conditions, starting from quality manufacturing. See: http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4.html The longevity of flash is still a big unknown. Regards, /Lars -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/532719f3.3020...@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 16/03/14 05:54 PM, Mr Queue wrote: Anyone doing anything interesting to backup data to DVD's? https://packages.debian.org/sid/dkopp ^^ Looks interesting and overall it's a pretty simple task. Suppose I could even use tar and split but just curious what others may be doing currently. FWIW, I'm mostly concerned with cloning my current backups of family photos to different media for peace of mind. I already have a pair of backup servers in different physical locations but want to add some DVD's into the mix. Those are hard to rm. ;) I've been using BD-RE for years to make backups and BD-R for archives. It works reasonably well providing that you're not backing up more than 25G. BD-REs do develop problems over time so you need to replace them when they wear out. I thought that they were supposed to have defect-tracking like HDs but it doesn't seem to work. When a disc develops a bad sector, it still seems to get written to. If you rm the file and cp it back, the same place shows up as bad when you cmp the original and backup of the file. I highly recommend doing the cmp after a backup because I have seen a lot of bad copies. I use a retry loop to ensure that the backup matches the original. However, because the bad sector doesn't seem to get marked, you need to have enough free space on the BD-RE to make a second copy of the largest file, again limiting the amount you can back up. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53271979.4090...@torfree.net
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 09:57:07 +0100 an...@cyberh0me.net wrote: > >> On Sun, 2014-03-16 at 16:54 -0500, Mr Queue wrote: > >> > I already have a pair of backup servers in different physical > >> > locations > >> > >> That's good. DVDs IMHO are useless as serious backup medias. > > > > Because? > > > > for example lifetime of the media itself, problems to read on > different kind of dvd drives and some other kind of Problems Thanks Andre. So far, I haven't had readability problems on old CDs and DVDs. Blu-Rays seem a little squirrelly over time, but CDs and DVDs seem readable for many years. > > there are so many reasons why enterprise companys never use dvd's as > storage medium for their data I think one of the big reasons enterprise backups avoid optical media is shear size. With DVD max 4.7GB and Blu-Ray max 25GB, a bare metal backup could involve a lot of time consuming media switching. But look at the alternatives. Tape has *always* been iffy on restorability, especially consumer grade tape devices. Backing up to a 2TB, 2.5" Western Digital external disk, about $120.00 at Costco, is a real possibility, but: 1) If you're worried about long time readability, you don't want this, because you're always going to be tempted to cannibalize old backups to make room for new ones, rather than spending another $120.00. 2) Magnetic disks tend to stop working if not spun up at regular intervals. 3) Magnetic disks can be (accidentally) erased. Not so with write-once optical media. 4) Magnetic disks are very subject to electric destruction and physical shock. Then there's "cloud backup". This would theoretically be great if you could trust the commercial entity to: 1) Carefully keep you backups for later use 2) Protect your backups from being viewed by others. In practice, the only way I'd ever trust a cloud backup entity is if I had alternative copies (which I would), and the backup I submitted to them was GPG protected with maximum key size. Also, if you're like me and have upload speeds of less than 1Mbit, it's going to take forever to back up. And once again, for privacy reasons, there's no way I'd let the backup system iteratively access the files on my computer. > however it depends how long you try to have this backup available and > if you want to be sure you have a working backup Exactly. In practice, I do these three things: * Maintain my own, rsync driven, incremental backup server, as described at http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200609/200609.htm * Back up from the backup server to Blu-Ray * Back up from the backup server to Western Digital 2.5" drives Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140317110652.52e9db67@mydesk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On 17/03/14 08:54, Mr Queue wrote: > Anyone doing anything interesting to backup data to DVD's? > > https://packages.debian.org/sid/dkopp > > ^^ Looks interesting and overall it's a pretty simple task. Suppose > I could even use tar and split but just curious what others may be doing > currently. > > FWIW, I'm mostly concerned with cloning my current backups of family > photos to different media for peace of mind. I already have a pair > of backup servers in different physical locations but want to add some > DVD's into the mix. > > Those are hard to rm. ;) On-site backups are of limited value (but offer convenience). DVD backups are ideal for off-site/secured backups in your use case. Do you have a fireproof safe? Some security companies provide very cheap 24/7 access lockboxes. > > dkopp works well, as does cedar-backup2 and backupninja. There are also other open-source tools with similar functionality. Contrary to one opinion in this thread, most of the "enterprise" (and very large government departments) I've worked with *do* use DVDs for backups to some degree. They're also often used by SMEs, with bank and security lockboxes used to for secure offsite storage. Tape and online backups (usually outsourced to storage companies) are the first level of backups, but often DVDs are used as a second level of data security. The advantages being that retrieving backups from DVDs doesn't incur an additional service fee; they provide an added layer of data security, and independence from business wide backup scheduling. Belts are good, but for full pants security belt and suspenders is better. As Ralf points out - modern optical storage media is not very reliable. *If* you don't implement the same (ITIL?) practices you would/should with magnetic media - that is, check it. You should also use archive quality optical media for your backups for best results. cdck, and qpxtool are useful for checking your optical media backups before trusting them. dvdisaster is my tool of choice as it can add additional levels of error correction. As with any backup - it's of little value if kept onsite unless locked in a fire-proof safe (though I've known "professionals" who kept backups on the same machine they're backing up!). An additional consideration with optical media backups is age deterioration, so storage conditions and media design will determine backup rotation schedules. Note: all the tools I mentioned are in the Debian repository and IMO are as good, or better, than the commercial alternatives. Kind regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5326e6c8.3050...@gmail.com
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Mon, 2014-03-17 at 11:25 +, Bonno Bloksma wrote: > So I have 2 USB connected disks of which 1 is allways offsite. +1 While I have to admit that at the moment I only use one USB HDD and it's disconnected, but in the same room as the PC, not really smart, I could do better ;). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1395056485.9232.183.camel@archlinux
RE: Backup's to DVD
Hello Andre, >>> > I already have a pair of backup servers in different physical >>> > locations >>> >>> That's good. DVDs IMHO are useless as serious backup medias. >> >> Because? >> > > for example lifetime of the media itself, problems to read on different kind > of dvd drives and some other kind of Problems > > there are so many reasons why enterprise companys never use dvd's as storage > medium for their data Do not confuse backup witch "archive copy". I know most people do not make that difference but when people start talking about lifetime of the backup medium it is part of the discussion. > however it depends how long you try to have this backup available and if you > want to be sure you have a working backup Normally backups are made to recover from a disaster which is mean one will usually want to use a "recent copy" of the data. Sometimes a somewhat older copy is needed. One we start talking about archive data were we need to look at data that is years old and may no longer be on the "current" storage medium then indeed the lifetime of the "backup medium" does become part of the discussion. For me backup to DVD is 1) to slow and b) the medium is not large enough. I just want to dump "all my data" onto the backup. So I have 2 USB connected disks of which 1 is allways offsite. Bonno Bloksma -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/89d1798a7351d040b4e74e0a043c69d7751f3...@hglexch-01.tio.nl
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Sun, 2014-03-16 at 16:54 -0500, Mr Queue wrote: > I already have a pair of backup servers in different physical > locations That's good. DVDs IMHO are useless as serious backup medias. Because? for example lifetime of the media itself, problems to read on different kind of dvd drives and some other kind of Problems there are so many reasons why enterprise companys never use dvd's as storage medium for their data however it depends how long you try to have this backup available and if you want to be sure you have a working backup -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/240492647c1e4a478df5c66bdc3e1...@cyberh0me.net
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 04:54:48PM -0500, Mr Queue wrote: > Anyone doing anything interesting to backup data to DVD's? Not personally, > FWIW, I'm mostly concerned with cloning my current backups of family > photos to different media for peace of mind. I already have a pair > of backup servers in different physical locations but want to add some > DVD's into the mix. Those are hard to rm. ;) I think it is possible to configure Bacula to use DVDs, Blu Rays etc. as an equivalent to a tape. -- Jonathan Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140317065257.ga30...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 16:54:48 -0500 Mr Queue wrote: > Anyone doing anything interesting to backup data to DVD's? > > https://packages.debian.org/sid/dkopp I back up to Blu-Ray, among other things. Often (I try to do it daily) I back up to a backup server via rsync. Then, every few weeks, I make tarballs of the major trees, and back up the tarballs to DVD. I make a 25GB file, loopback mount and format it UDF, store all the files on it, then use growisofs to burn it to Blu-Ray. http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/blu-ray-backup.htm SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140317011512.2a33d826@mydesk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 23:02:59 +0100 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 2014-03-16 at 16:54 -0500, Mr Queue wrote: > > I already have a pair of backup servers in different physical > > locations > > That's good. DVDs IMHO are useless as serious backup medias. Because? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140317010805.500484bb@mydesk
Re: Backup's to DVD
On Sun, 2014-03-16 at 16:54 -0500, Mr Queue wrote: > I already have a pair of backup servers in different physical > locations That's good. DVDs IMHO are useless as serious backup medias. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1395007379.9232.135.camel@archlinux
