Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 07:40, Weaver  wrote:
>> Yes, it raises the point that some manufacturers achieve their hardware
>> height and profile, not from the keyboard base, but from the different
>> heights of keys on the different rows of a Qwerty.
>>
>
> My current keyboard is built like that, each row of keys has a
> different profile. I moved the keycaps from qwerty to Colemak
> regardless, and although one can see with the eye that not all the
> keycaps are level, it cannot be felt in typing. I am a very sensitive
> typer, I can tell you which keys take 35 grams of force, which take
> 45, and which are inaccurate and take too much. If I don't notice the
> different keycaps in typing, then I assure you that it is not an
> issue. Note that I did put some rough tape on the (qwerty) F and J
> keys to help me find home row.

Yes, on referring to the companies themselves for information, I've found
that many don't know much about their own product.
The Australian agent for  one brand states that they don't make a keyboard
that caters for Dvorak, while the manufacturer says that there's not a
problem.

I don't appreciate that sort of thing on a professional level.
If they're that sloppy, maybe their support and other aspects are the same.
Doesn't give you much confidence in buying their product, going forward.
Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 07:40, Weaver  wrote:
> Yes, it raises the point that some manufacturers achieve their hardware
> height and profile, not from the keyboard base, but from the different
> heights of keys on the different rows of a Qwerty.
>

My current keyboard is built like that, each row of keys has a
different profile. I moved the keycaps from qwerty to Colemak
regardless, and although one can see with the eye that not all the
keycaps are level, it cannot be felt in typing. I am a very sensitive
typer, I can tell you which keys take 35 grams of force, which take
45, and which are inaccurate and take too much. If I don't notice the
different keycaps in typing, then I assure you that it is not an
issue. Note that I did put some rough tape on the (qwerty) F and J
keys to help me find home row.

-- 
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http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 00:47, Dan Serban  wrote:
> If not using your own hardware, would that not be a detriment
> after getting used to the MS Natural keyboard?
>

Not at all. The R in RSI is "repetitive", and the key to healing is to
reduce repetitive tasks. So regularly switching keyboards helps to
heal RSI. I have three different keyboards that I rotate, two of which
I can type on standing. One of them is the MS Natural!

> I find that all of my computers, and versions of consoles, distributions
> and desktop environments have very excellent support for other keyboard
> layouts.  Heck, even my Android phone sports a colemak layout, and touch
> typing on that device certainly doesn't have the same meaning.  Usually I
> can find a way to use my layout, if not, qwerty like I've said isn't a far
> stretch for me.
>

When I type in Colemak I hold the keyboard differently, with my
fingers one key over (that would be D and K in qwerty). Since the
hardware feels physically different under my hands, muscle memory lets
me switch easier.

-- 
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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:46:47 -0800
> "Weaver"  wrote:

>> >From investigations so far.
>> Advice from Daskeyboards support:
>>
>> "Thanks for your interest in Das Keyboard!
>>
>> The physical key caps cannot be rearranged into the Dvorak layout
>> because
>> each row has a different height and curvature, so keys on the QWERTY row
>> would not feel right when mixed with keys on the ASDF or ZXCV rows. The
>> keyboard can be used in Dvorak when you change the settings in your
>> computer, but the keys themselves can't be rearranged without it feeling
>> "wrong" to your fingers.
>>
>> I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions".
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Weaver.
>
> While I have a das keyboard, the answer is correct.  Unicomp might have a
> layout that is hardware based.  I'd try them at http://pckeyboards.com

Yes, it raises the point that some manufacturers achieve their hardware
height and profile, not from the keyboard base, but from the different
heights of keys on the different rows of a Qwerty.

Still, one of their blank 'Ultimate' boards, that only needs the change in
the software config. should be fine.
I'm thinking of doing that and buying stickers for the initial stage.
Once they wear off, I should be well on top of the touch typing situation.
Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dan Serban]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:46:47 -0800
"Weaver"  wrote:

> 
> > On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:06:48 +0200
> > Dotan Cohen  wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi  wrote:
> >> > On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> >> >> What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing
> >> keyboard
> 
> >From investigations so far.
> Advice from Daskeyboards support:
> 
> "Thanks for your interest in Das Keyboard!
> 
> The physical key caps cannot be rearranged into the Dvorak layout because
> each row has a different height and curvature, so keys on the QWERTY row
> would not feel right when mixed with keys on the ASDF or ZXCV rows. The
> keyboard can be used in Dvorak when you change the settings in your
> computer, but the keys themselves can't be rearranged without it feeling
> "wrong" to your fingers.
> 
> I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions".
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Weaver.

While I have a das keyboard, the answer is correct.  Unicomp might have a
layout that is hardware based.  I'd try them at http://pckeyboards.com

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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Russell L. Harris]

* Weaver  [120112 02:56]:
> Hello all.
> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater
> typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
> moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
> keyboard into the system.
> 
> Who makes the best ones?
> Where can they be bought from.
> 
> Thanks for any time and trouble.
> Regards,
> 
> Weaver.

SHORT ANSWER: Do NOT purchase a Dvorak-layout keyboard.  Instead,
learn to touch-type Dvorak on a standard QWERTY keyboard.  The
computer does not care how the keycaps are labeled; and if you
touch-type, neither should you!


LONGER ANSWER: I learned to touch-type circa 1963 on a manual
typewriter which used the QWERTY layout but had blank keycaps.  I was
one of the fastest and most accurate typists in the class, but numbers
always were difficult for me.  From 1963 until the present day, I type
daily and heavily.

About 1980, with my first IBM-PC (running M$DO$ and Window$) and a
major contract in hand, I switched to the "classic" (that is, the
original) Dvorak layout, in which the numeric row is:

   [ 7 5 3 1 9 0 2 4 6 8 ]

Because the "classic" Dvorak layout is more-or-less intuitive to the native
English speaker, the transition from QWERTY to Dvorak "classic" was
not painful; it took me about a month to become comfortable and
proficient with Dvorak.  (The best way to ensure a successful
transition is to commit yourself to the Dvorak layout at the beginning
of a major project -- so that the matter becomes "swim or drown", and
so that turning back is not an option.)

Of course, learning the Dvorak layout should be easier for someone who
does not have to "unlearn" QWERTY in the process.  With the "classic" Dvorak
layout (which now is available in Debian and Ubuntu, if not
elsewhere), numbers suddenly were much easier to type accurately and
rapidly.

Back then, it was impractical for me to search for a "classic" Dvorak
keyboard driver; the few readily-available drivers produced the
"modified" layout.  So I wore out several Northgate brand keyboards
which had the "classic" Dvorak option.

Once keyboard layout utilities (such as "TradeKeys Dvorak" became
common, I switched to an off-the-shelf QWERTY keyboard and simply
ignored the keycap labels.  (After all, this is what touch-typing is
all about.)  An added advantage is that QWERTY typists do not use my
computer, because they cannot decipher the key layout!

When I first switched from Window$ to Debian, I paid a Debian guru to
modify the QWERTY keyboard driver to Dvorak "classic" layout.  (August
Dvorak really knew what he was doing when he arranged the numeric key
row.)

On the original Selectric, IBM offered as an option a layout which
today is termed the "modified" Dvorak layout.  But the "modified"
layout is a lamentable and foolish compromise in which the numeric row
arrangement is:

   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - =

and there are other changes, as well.

Regrettably, it is the compromised "modified" Dvorak layout which was
standardized by the ISO (see Wikipedia).  Apple likewise used the
"modified" Dvorak layout on the IIC, allowing the user to switch
between QWERTY and modified Dvorak with a slide switch.

Please see the article at:

http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2004/emacs_dvorak.htm .

The section labeled "Update, August 2006:") presents my
recommendations concerning intuitive Emacs-specific keybindings which
have served me well for at least a decade.

RLH


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dan Serban]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:07:44 +
Anthony Campbell  wrote:

> On 10 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote:
> > > That site is down at present.
> > > 
> > > My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> > > typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> > > QWERTY keyboard?
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Well, I hope the site has become available to you again since the
> > original message.  There, you can see the layout that colemak provides,
> > it's close to Qwerty and provides some pros (maybe some cons) to the
> > layout.  While I do admit that it is quite aggravating to learn a new
> > layout; IMHO it has paid off for me. I've learned to effectively touch
> > type, and I feel that my comfort level is certainly higher. I've never
> > been a speedy typer so I cannot add that to the advantages. Though I do
> > find that I make much fewer mistakes and my fingers definitely do not
> > travel as far as I felt that they used to using Qwerty.
> > 
> > I suggest you print out whatever layout you ever decide to go
> > with, if you so decide.. then at least you will be able to enter your
> > passwords without too much frustration.
> > 
> > If you feel that you have reasons to switch I suggest you give it a
> > shot, otherwise, don't simply add a layer of frustration to your daily
> > routine until you are convinced this is the way to go.
> > 
> 
> Thank you - and yes, the site is up again now. Your advice about
> deciding to change is similar to that given by colemak. I can see the
> force of the arguments for changing and if I were younger I'd probably
> try, but at nearly 78 I doubt if it is worth it. I don't actually have
> RSI or other problems with qwerty. Not that I'm averse to new ideas: I'm
> currently making a start on learning a little C.
> 

Well, first of all, I must say that I'm impressed with your drive to use
debian (forgive my candor) "at your age".  From my experience, in later
stages of life, people get stuck in their ruts and are adverse to change in
any way.  Maybe then you'd be an excellent candidate to try a
different keyboard layout?  =)  Though I must add that your argument is
fair, if for any reason you find that you're actually looking for reasons to
frustrate the heck out of yourself, then maybe it's not a good idea.

I found that in the end it really didn't take me long to learn a new
layout. Overall, while learning colemak I used to think to myself that I
was having severe difficulty adapting to where the keys are and thought the
others out there making comments about the easy switch were either 12 year
olds or severely more adept at learning new things than I was.  My trick was
printing the layout, taping it nicely to my central screen and blindly
learning to touch type.  It also helped having a keyboard with blank keys
to erase any and all excuses not to try.  I went into it both feet
first and have never really turned back.

I tell you though, the first two weeks were quite tough and my fingers
actually started twitching after hitting the wrong key 4 times in a row.

> They do suggest that even if you don't make the switch you should
> reprogram CapsLock to give BackSpace. I had long had it giving Escape
> (needed frequently in my favourite editor, Vim) but I'm trying it out
> as BackSpace now. I find I often hit Return instead of the normal
> BackSpace so this may be worth while.

Indeed, I've never found the Caps Lock key very useful.  In reality, the
only time I've ever put it to use was to enter my postal code (Canadian
here).  Otherwise, useless.  I did reprogram it to be a second control key
in my case.  My approach was to be more accurate than high-speed, so having
my pinkie try to find the control key at the bottom of the keyboard was
a hassle.  I use it all the time for things like tmux, and zsh so I found it
advantageous to have it there.

I've thought about having the keyboard layout swap the tilde/backtick key
with the Esc key as vim is my primary editor as well.  Haven't tried to do
that recently because it involved editing files that I did not comprehend.
Fear it's a great demotivator!

> Anthony
> 

Apologies to the list for my OT posts and ramblings.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dan Serban]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:15:19 +0100
Andreas Weber  wrote:

> > My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> > typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> > QWERTY keyboard?
> 
> No, it's not. Only if you always work on your own hardware. But as soon
> as you have to touch different machines ... QWERT is everywhere (like vi
> on *nix machines).
> 

While that argument may stand in a logical sense, yes that is a drawback.
Once I learned where all of the keys are placed on my colemak layout I
found that I did have to hunt and peck when using qwerty.  A while later,
it felt like it magically came back and now, while not proficient, I can
certainly still type in qwerty if the circumstance dictates.

I've heard the same story from others I've talked to and feel that it
really isn't an issue, certainly in my case from my own experience.

> Learn to type properly and use a Natural 4000 M$ Keyboard is my
> suggestion. And don't overtrain in the beginning, learn to type as if
> you would learn to run a marathon. It'll take some time, your body has
> to adapt first.

Maybe that argument does hold some water, but is simply IMHO a band-aid on
top of the problem.  RSI can be tackled from many different angles, and
your solution may be one of them, though I could point to your argument
above;  If not using your own hardware, would that not be a detriment
after getting used to the MS Natural keyboard?

I find that all of my computers, and versions of consoles, distributions
and desktop environments have very excellent support for other keyboard
layouts.  Heck, even my Android phone sports a colemak layout, and touch
typing on that device certainly doesn't have the same meaning.  Usually I
can find a way to use my layout, if not, qwerty like I've said isn't a far
stretch for me.

> Just my 2c.
> 
> 

=), mine too.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Anthony Campbell]

On 10 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote:
> > That site is down at present.
> > 
> > My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> > typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> > QWERTY keyboard?
> > 
> > 
> 
> Well, I hope the site has become available to you again since the original
> message.  There, you can see the layout that colemak provides, it's close
> to Qwerty and provides some pros (maybe some cons) to the layout.  While I
> do admit that it is quite aggravating to learn a new layout; IMHO it has
> paid off for me. I've learned to effectively touch type, and I feel that
> my comfort level is certainly higher. I've never been a speedy typer so I
> cannot add that to the advantages. Though I do find that I make much fewer
> mistakes and my fingers definitely do not travel as far as I felt that they
> used to using Qwerty.
> 
> I suggest you print out whatever layout you ever decide to go
> with, if you so decide.. then at least you will be able to enter your
> passwords without too much frustration.
> 
> If you feel that you have reasons to switch I suggest you give it a shot,
> otherwise, don't simply add a layer of frustration to your daily routine
> until you are convinced this is the way to go.
> 

Thank you - and yes, the site is up again now. Your advice about
deciding to change is similar to that given by colemak. I can see the
force of the arguments for changing and if I were younger I'd probably
try, but at nearly 78 I doubt if it is worth it. I don't actually have
RSI or other problems with qwerty. Not that I'm averse to new ideas: I'm
currently making a start on learning a little C.

They do suggest that even if you don't make the switch you should
reprogram CapsLock to give BackSpace. I had long had it giving Escape
(needed frequently in my favourite editor, Vim) but I'm trying it out
as BackSpace now. I find I often hit Return instead of the normal
BackSpace so this may be worth while.

Anthony

-- 
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Microsoft-free zone - using Linux 
http://www.acampbell.org.uk - book reviews, 
articles, blog, and printed books and ebooks


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Andreas Weber]

> My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> QWERTY keyboard?

No, it's not. Only if you always work on your own hardware. But as soon
as you have to touch different machines ... QWERT is everywhere (like vi
on *nix machines).

Learn to type properly and use a Natural 4000 M$ Keyboard is my
suggestion. And don't overtrain in the beginning, learn to type as if
you would learn to run a marathon. It'll take some time, your body has
to adapt first.

Just my 2c.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:06:48 +0200
> Dotan Cohen  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi  wrote:
>> > On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
>> >> What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing
>> keyboard

>From investigations so far.
Advice from Daskeyboards support:

"Thanks for your interest in Das Keyboard!

The physical key caps cannot be rearranged into the Dvorak layout because
each row has a different height and curvature, so keys on the QWERTY row
would not feel right when mixed with keys on the ASDF or ZXCV rows. The
keyboard can be used in Dvorak when you change the settings in your
computer, but the keys themselves can't be rearranged without it feeling
"wrong" to your fingers.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions".

Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dan Serban]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:06:48 +0200
Dotan Cohen  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi  wrote:
> > On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> >> What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard
> >
> > How do you do that?  I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on
> > which you could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern
> > equivalent.
> >
> 
> The physical keys do not need to be changed, just the keycaps. Every
> consumer keyboard can have the keycaps removed and replaced. I am a
> keyboard affectionado, I am currently typing on a Cherry Brown
> keyboard that I personally rearranged the keycaps on from Qwerty to
> Colemak. Photos upon request.
> 
> If you need advice for removing and reinstalling the keycaps I can help.
> 
> 

Pics please.  How do you find the browns?  Using blues right now and I feel
that they're weak, not enough force to make them actuate.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dan Serban]

On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:35:52 +
Anthony Campbell  wrote:

> On 06 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote:
> > On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800
> > "Weaver"  wrote:
> > 
> > > Hello all.
> > > I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the
> > > greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have
> > > even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of
> > > implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system.
> > 
> > While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at
> > the colemak layout as well.  This has some advantages (I feel) over
> > Dvorak. Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference.
> > 
> > http://colemak.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> That site is down at present.
> 
> My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> QWERTY keyboard?
> 
> 

Well, I hope the site has become available to you again since the original
message.  There, you can see the layout that colemak provides, it's close
to Qwerty and provides some pros (maybe some cons) to the layout.  While I
do admit that it is quite aggravating to learn a new layout; IMHO it has
paid off for me. I've learned to effectively touch type, and I feel that
my comfort level is certainly higher. I've never been a speedy typer so I
cannot add that to the advantages. Though I do find that I make much fewer
mistakes and my fingers definitely do not travel as far as I felt that they
used to using Qwerty.

I suggest you print out whatever layout you ever decide to go
with, if you so decide.. then at least you will be able to enter your
passwords without too much frustration.

If you feel that you have reasons to switch I suggest you give it a shot,
otherwise, don't simply add a layer of frustration to your daily routine
until you are convinced this is the way to go.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> Hi Weaver,
>
> If you are curious about keyboard layouts then you might really enjoy
> Dvorak. I have used Dvorak for about 8 years. It takes a while to get
> rolling, but it has definitely been worth it. I feel like typing is a
> much smoother activity now, and touch typing is easier.
>
> When I started out, I took old keyboards, popped off the keys,
> rearranged them, and used a software layout on the computer. That
> worked fine for a long time, and there was no expensive investment.
> Note that not all keyboards can be rearranged this way.
>
> More recently I bough I new clicky keyboard (mechanical switches) from
> Unicomp. These are like old IBM keyboards that are still in production
> in Kentucky USA.
>
> http://pckeyboard.com/
>
> The "Ultra Classic" is a good one that has all the modern control keys.
> These keyboards have an "old school" feel that some will appreciate.
>
> It's not clear on the website, but at checkout time you can pick what
> layout you want. I picked Dvorak, and lo and behold I received in the
> mail a HARDWARE Dvorak keyboard. That means I just plug it in and it
> works, no configuration needed. That also means I don't have to worry
> about the layout being wrong at boot time or at a grub prompt. Nice!
>
> On my laptop it was not feasible to rearrange the keys. I much prefer
> to have the keys properly labeled, so I used keyboard labels and that
> has worked well so far.
>
> There are lots of different ways to do Dvorak. The hardest
> part is getting over the "hump" of the learning curve.
>
> Rickard

Great!
Thanks for that.

Weaver.
-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 19:35, Anthony Campbell  wrote:
> My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> QWERTY keyboard?
>

Probably not. Some people cite speed, others comfort as a reason. I'll
tell you mine.

I type fast. Real fast. I haven't done a wpm test but let's just say
that I type faster than most. Often, this speed comes with increased
finger pressure on the keys (I bang them) and rapid wrist movement.
Both those factors cause me pain now. Switching to Colemak slowed me
down considerably, as such I could relearn how I press the keys and
avoid bottoming out (mechanical keyboards do not need to bottom out to
register a keypress). Furthermore, the reduced wrist movement (because
of the better layout) and the slower movement (due to my unfamiliarity
with the layout) have reduced my wrist pain. I am actually typing this
in qwerty now, and I see that my fingers are all over the keyboard. My
pinky hurts!

Note that I decided to do something different for Colemak. Instead of
putting my index fingers in the 'correct' position (F and J in Qwerty)
I put them further out (D and K in Qwerty). This gives me a bit more
room between them, for a more natural typing position, and it reduces
the load on the pinkies. The extra load is moved to the index fingers,
which are stronger and more agile.

I am trying to configure my own keyboard layout, but I am having
trouble remapping the modifier keys:
Noah Ergonomic Keyboard Layout
http://dotancohen.com/eng/noah_ergonomic_keyboard_layout.html

That layout moves the hands as far apart as possible and moves as much
load off the pinkies as possible. It is very comfortable, but I am
having trouble writing an xkb layout for it.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Rickard]

Hi Weaver,

If you are curious about keyboard layouts then you might really enjoy
Dvorak. I have used Dvorak for about 8 years. It takes a while to get
rolling, but it has definitely been worth it. I feel like typing is a
much smoother activity now, and touch typing is easier.

When I started out, I took old keyboards, popped off the keys,
rearranged them, and used a software layout on the computer. That
worked fine for a long time, and there was no expensive investment.
Note that not all keyboards can be rearranged this way.

More recently I bough I new clicky keyboard (mechanical switches) from
Unicomp. These are like old IBM keyboards that are still in production
in Kentucky USA.

http://pckeyboard.com/

The "Ultra Classic" is a good one that has all the modern control keys.
These keyboards have an "old school" feel that some will appreciate.

It's not clear on the website, but at checkout time you can pick what
layout you want. I picked Dvorak, and lo and behold I received in the
mail a HARDWARE Dvorak keyboard. That means I just plug it in and it
works, no configuration needed. That also means I don't have to worry
about the layout being wrong at boot time or at a grub prompt. Nice!

On my laptop it was not feasible to rearrange the keys. I much prefer
to have the keys properly labeled, so I used keyboard labels and that
has worked well so far.

There are lots of different ways to do Dvorak. The hardest
part is getting over the "hump" of the learning curve.

Rickard


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On 06 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800
>> "Weaver"  wrote:
>>
>> > Hello all.
>> > I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the
>> greater
>> > typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
>> > moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
>> > keyboard into the system.
>>
>> While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at
>> the
>> colemak layout as well.  This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak.
>> Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference.
>>
>> http://colemak.com
>>
>>
>
> That site is down at present.
>
> My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
> typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
> QWERTY keyboard?

With Dvorak, at least, there are statistically verified claims of 40%
faster touch typing speeds and 40% lower incidence of RSI over Qwerty
keyboard users.
Regards,

Weaver.

-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Anthony Campbell]

On 06 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800
> "Weaver"  wrote:
> 
> > Hello all.
> > I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater
> > typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
> > moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
> > keyboard into the system.
> 
> While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the
> colemak layout as well.  This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak.
> Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference.
> 
> http://colemak.com
> 
> 

That site is down at present.

My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of
typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the
QWERTY keyboard?


-- 
Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk 
Microsoft-free zone - using Linux 
http://www.acampbell.org.uk - book reviews, 
articles, blog, and printed books and ebooks


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[T Elcor]

--- On Sun, 1/7/12, Paul Johnson wrote:

> > I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case.

> > $ aptitude show klavaro
> > Package: klavaro
> > Version: 1.9.3-1

> It's a shame this doesn't support "USA Cherokee" layout. 

It supports custom layouts, select "Custom" as Keyboard, you may be able to 
define a custom "USA Cherokee" layout. I've never tried defining custom layouts 
though, not sure how much effort is involved.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 14:32, Camaleón  wrote:
> Mmm, are there different switches types for the same keyboard?
>
> (...)
>
> Wow, Internet says there are many colored pieces behaving differently!
> Black, brown, white, clear, blue and red (it seems that red switches were
> manufactured for the Asian market and just in small quantities).
>
> What the...! That's a good engineered product.
>
> Okay, after having listened to different YouTube videos showing the
> differentiating "clicking" noise for blue and red ones (people has much
> free time...) I have to conclude that mine is blue. The "clock, clock"
> sound is very noticeable, this keyboard is indeed noisy but keys are
> softly pushed like pure silk between your fingers :-)
>

The blues are very common, I have them on my numpad, but browns on the
alphanumerics. The almost-best of both worlds! If you really want to
see people who are crazy about keyboards, I invite you to Geekhack:
http://geekhack.org/


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Camaleón]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:12:01 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:52, Camaleón  wrote:
>> I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold
>> contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if
>> Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-?
>>
>>
> If you mean G80-3000 then that is the keyboard that Das Keyboard is
> based on. Definitely one of the better keyboards out there! Which
> switches? Blues? If it is reds then I'm jealous!

Mmm, are there different switches types for the same keyboard? 

(...) 

Wow, Internet says there are many colored pieces behaving differently! 
Black, brown, white, clear, blue and red (it seems that red switches were 
manufactured for the Asian market and just in small quantities). 

What the...! That's a good engineered product.

Okay, after having listened to different YouTube videos showing the 
differentiating "clicking" noise for blue and red ones (people has much 
free time...) I have to conclude that mine is blue. The "clock, clock" 
sound is very noticeable, this keyboard is indeed noisy but keys are 
softly pushed like pure silk between your fingers :-)

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:52, Camaleón  wrote:
> I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold
> contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if
> Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-?
>

If you mean G80-3000 then that is the keyboard that Das Keyboard is
based on. Definitely one of the better keyboards out there! Which
switches? Blues? If it is reds then I'm jealous!

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi  wrote:
> On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
>> What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard
>
> How do you do that?  I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you
> could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent.
>

The physical keys do not need to be changed, just the keycaps. Every
consumer keyboard can have the keycaps removed and replaced. I am a
keyboard affectionado, I am currently typing on a Cherry Brown
keyboard that I personally rearranged the keycaps on from Qwerty to
Colemak. Photos upon request.

If you need advice for removing and reinstalling the keycaps I can help.


-- 
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http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 23:22 -0800, Weaver wrote:

> > It's a shame this doesn't support "USA Cherokee" layout.
> >
> When I was reading their site yesterday, they made a point of feedback
> being appreciated and wanting to implement new formats, so an approach in
> that direction could be well in order.
> 
> It's not a native English speaking site so they may well be totally
> unaware of it.

No worries, to be fair, it's not an English keyboard layout.  I'm
attempting to learn my tribe's language, so I'm mostly interested in
that layout for that purpose.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Lisi]

On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:38:00 Aaron Toponce wrote:
> Piano players do this all the time.

off topic

Lisi


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Lisi]

On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:29:07 Aaron Toponce wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 11:22:09PM +, Lisi wrote:
> > On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:15:01 Aaron Toponce wrote:
> > > Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments,
> >
> > What about incompetent musicians?
>
> Off-topic.

No, it isn't.  You were using the analogy of typists and musicians.  I was 
continuing the analogy.  Some of us would not be able to manage at all 
without a marked keyboard, even if you chose to label those who cannot manage 
as incompetent.  We have a right to exist and be taken into account.  So 
marked keyboards are needed.

Lisi


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dotan Cohen]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 19:39, Weaver  wrote:
> Hello all.
> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater
> typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
> moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
> keyboard into the system.
>
> Who makes the best ones?
> Where can they be bought from.
>
> Thanks for any time and trouble.
> Regards,
>
> Weaver.
>
>

I Weaver. I used Dvorak a bit then switched to Colemak. Both are
supported on Debian. I continue to use my old keyboard, as actually
learning to touch type is much more an advantage than the actual
placement of the keys. You will find that Colemak is much more similar
to Qwerty, and is therefore much easier to learn.


-- 
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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Fri, 2012-01-06 at 21:57 -0800, T Elcor wrote:
>> --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Weaver  wrote:
>>
>> > You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively
>> > pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your
>> sound
>> > card for those typing sessions.
>>
>> I'd suggest klavaro application to improve one's typing skills, it
>> supports several popular layouts including dvorak. With a blank keyboard
>> one would need to be able to blind type.
>>
>> I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case.
>>
>>
>> $ aptitude show klavaro
>> Package: klavaro
>> Version: 1.9.3-1
>
> It's a shame this doesn't support "USA Cherokee" layout.
>
When I was reading their site yesterday, they made a point of feedback
being appreciated and wanting to implement new formats, so an approach in
that direction could be well in order.

It's not a native English speaking site so they may well be totally
unaware of it.
Regards,

Weaver.

-- 


Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[doug]

On 01/07/2012 08:27 PM, green wrote:

Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:38 -0600:

On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 05:35:39PM -0600, green wrote:

Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600:

Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the
keys to begin with.

I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly
labeled.  Why?  Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand
while the other is using the mouse.  Or perhaps type something in with one
hand while holding a notebook with the other.  Etcetera.

There is nothing preventing you from still looking at the keyboard, and
clearly identifying where the key is located that you want to hit, even
when the keys are blank. Piano players do this all the time.

I know where the keys are when my hands are in their proper positions, but I
can not type the Dvorak 'k' (for example), with my right index finger without
a labeled key (with consistent accuracy, across the various keys).  And I
play the piano but that is totally different (in my opinion).

I haven't used the Dvorak k/b, but I have been typing since high school,
where I took "academic typing."  This was taught on unmarked keyboards.
Nevertheless, I still look at the keys on occasion, especially for the
various characters above the numbers, and the various symbols at the
right of the k/b.  Just my 2¢.
BTW:  I strongly recommend that all school students take typing--
the skill has served me well over the past 60 years!
BTW2: I also play piano, and I agree--the two keyboards are not at
all similar!

--doug


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[green]

Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:38 -0600:
> On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 05:35:39PM -0600, green wrote:
> > Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600:
> > > Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the
> > > keys to begin with.
> >
> > I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly
> > labeled.  Why?  Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand
> > while the other is using the mouse.  Or perhaps type something in with one
> > hand while holding a notebook with the other.  Etcetera.
> 
> There is nothing preventing you from still looking at the keyboard, and
> clearly identifying where the key is located that you want to hit, even
> when the keys are blank. Piano players do this all the time.

I know where the keys are when my hands are in their proper positions, but I 
can not type the Dvorak 'k' (for example), with my right index finger without 
a labeled key (with consistent accuracy, across the various keys).  And I 
play the piano but that is totally different (in my opinion).


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Aaron Toponce]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 05:35:39PM -0600, green wrote:
> Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600:
> > Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the
> > keys to begin with.
>
> I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly
> labeled.  Why?  Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand
> while the other is using the mouse.  Or perhaps type something in with one
> hand while holding a notebook with the other.  Etcetera.

There is nothing preventing you from still looking at the keyboard, and
clearly identifying where the key is located that you want to hit, even
when the keys are blank. Piano players do this all the time.

--
. o .   o . o   . . o   o . .   . o .
. . o   . o o   o . o   . o o   . . o
o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[green]

Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600:
> Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the 
> keys to begin with.

I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly 
labeled.  Why?  Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand 
while the other is using the mouse.  Or perhaps type something in with one 
hand while holding a notebook with the other.  Etcetera.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Aaron Toponce]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 11:22:09PM +, Lisi wrote:
> On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:15:01 Aaron Toponce wrote:
> > Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments,
>
> What about incompetent musicians?

Off-topic.

--
. o .   o . o   . . o   o . .   . o .
. . o   . o o   o . o   . o o   . . o
o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Lisi]

On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:15:01 Aaron Toponce wrote:
> Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments,

What about incompetent musicians?

Lisi


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Aaron Toponce]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:44:22PM +, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> I guess I wasn't clear enough. This should have been:
> What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard
> and changing the layout at the same time (I'm aware it won't be 100%)?
> This way one can try it out without spending money and changing their
> mind. Later it's time to start learning to touch type.

What's wrong with rearranging your keys to match the layout? How about:

1. The notches on the 'f' and 'j' keys will be moved, making it
   difficult to find the home row without looking.
2. Some keyboard have differently shaped posts under 'f' and 'j'
   preventing them from being moved anyway.
3. Many keyboards have a natural curvature from the top row to the
   bottom row. Moving the keys around messes up that curvature, and
   requires the fingers to be lifted higher, creating more work to
   type, and thus defeating the purpose.
4. Moving your keys around will encourage you to look at your fingers
   while you type, preventing true touch typing, and slowing down your
   progress in speed and accuracy.

I am a Dvorak typist, and have been for 6+ years. Personally, I don't
understand why there are any characters printed on the keys to begin with.
Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments, so they know
where to play 'C' or 'B-flat", for example, so why should they be on your
typing keyboard. As a result, I'm a large proponent of the blank keyboards
at http://daskeyboard.com (I own two). While there are hardware switches
that allow you to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak for keyboards, I
wouldn't recommend it. Just learn were the new characters are on the
printed QWERTY layout, and start touch typing.

--
. o .   o . o   . . o   o . .   . o .
. . o   . o o   o . o   . o o   . . o
o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, 2012-01-06 at 21:57 -0800, T Elcor wrote:
> --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Weaver  wrote:
> 
> > You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively
> > pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound
> > card for those typing sessions.
> 
> I'd suggest klavaro application to improve one's typing skills, it supports 
> several popular layouts including dvorak. With a blank keyboard one would 
> need to be able to blind type.
> 
> I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case.
> 
> 
> $ aptitude show klavaro
> Package: klavaro
> Version: 1.9.3-1

It's a shame this doesn't support "USA Cherokee" layout.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Raf Czlonka]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 10:52:53AM GMT, Camaleón wrote:
> I'm sure memorizing the keys or using a blank keyboard is an easy task 
> for professional typists :-)

I disagree, you don't have to be a professional typist to memorise the
keys on your keyboard. As long as you use a keyboard daily there's
nothing stopping you. First step, without which you'll never succeed, is
learning how to touch type. After you're comfortable with that switch to
a blank keyboard, it will be awkward at first but you'll get used to it.
You don't have to be a master touch typist, as long as you know how the
keys relate to each other you can figure it out. Practice and it'll
eventually come naturally.

> Anyway, I first thought the user was looking for a confortable dvorak 
> keyboard device and the answer is the same regardless the layout. I agree 
> with your suggestion of Cherry keyboards, I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold 
> contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if 
> Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-?

Also using Cherry both at work and home.
Not sure but what you can do is to get Model M, Cherry or "Das Keyboard",
re-arrange the keys and change the keyboard layout.

Regards,
-- 
Raf


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:51:39 +, Raf Czlonka wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:37:16PM GMT, Camaleón wrote:
>> That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the
>> one printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap
>> in your head and type without looking at the keyboard.
> 
> That's why I suggested a blank as it won't confuse you or swap the keys.
> It's not really that hard to memorise the full keyboard layout and learn
> to touch type.

I'm sure memorizing the keys or using a blank keyboard is an easy task 
for professional typists :-)

Anyway, I first thought the user was looking for a confortable dvorak 
keyboard device and the answer is the same regardless the layout. I agree 
with your suggestion of Cherry keyboards, I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold 
contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if 
Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-?

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[T Elcor]

--- On Fri, 1/6/12, Weaver  wrote:

> You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively
> pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound
> card for those typing sessions.

I'd suggest klavaro application to improve one's typing skills, it supports 
several popular layouts including dvorak. With a blank keyboard one would need 
to be able to blind type.

I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case.


$ aptitude show klavaro
Package: klavaro
Version: 1.9.3-1
...
Description: Flexible touch typing tutor
 Klavaro is a simple tutor to teach correct typing, almost independently of 
language and very flexible
 regarding to new or unknown keyboard layouts. 
 
 Its key features are: 
 * Internationalization 
 * Ready to use keyboard layouts 
 * Keyboard layout editor 
 * Basic course 
 * Adaptability, velocity and fluidness exercises 
 * Progress charts.
Homepage: http://klavaro.sourceforge.net


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively
> pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound
> card for those typing sessions.  Hit a wrong key, there's a backspace key
> to use.  This for sighted people just enables another learning channel.

Good tip.
Thanks for that.
Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


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and by the rulers as useful.

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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Jude DaShiell]

You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively 
pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound 
card for those typing sessions.  Hit a wrong key, there's a backspace key 
to use.  This for sighted people just enables another learning channel.On 
Fri, 6 Jan 2012, Weaver wrote:

> 
> > On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:22:35 +, Raf Czlonka wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote:
> >>> Hello all.
> >>> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the
> >>> greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even
> >>> delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a
> >>> Dvorak keyboard into the system.
> >>>
> >>> Who makes the best ones?
> >>> Where can they be bought from.
> >>
> >> Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device.
> >
> > I'd say it can match both assertions.
> >
> >> You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might
> >> this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can
> >> buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong
> >> with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout?
> >
> > That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one
> > printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in
> > your head and type without looking at the keyboard.
> 
> Yes, I need this keyboard to learn with.
> Thanks,
> 
> Apologies to those I've been sending unintentional personal replies to.
> Regards,
> 
> Weaver.
> 


Jude 



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800
> "Weaver"  wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the
>> greater
>> typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
>> moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
>> keyboard into the system.
>
> While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the
> colemak layout as well.  This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak.
> Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference.
>
> http://colemak.com

Thanks for that.
Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:37:21PM GMT, Lisi wrote:
>> On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
>> > What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard
>>
>> How do you do that?  I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which
>> you
>> could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent.
>
> On laptops or cheap PS2/USB keyboards it's might be tricky.
> Model M keyboards as these are the ones you referring to, originally made
> by IBM, are still widely available either from your local second hand
> computer shop or from eBay or you can still buy them new from Unicomp.
>
> Cherry makes nice keyboards (the MX ones) or you can buy "Das Keyboard"
> (available blank as well as printed) which AFAIK is based on Cherry.

Thanks for the leads.
Regards,

Weaver
-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> Weaver wrote at 2012-01-06 10:39 -0700:
>> idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system.
>>
>> Who makes the best ones?
>> Where can they be bought from.
>
> You can use any keyboard as Dvorak, but I prefer to have properly labeled
> keys, and none of marker, paint, and stickers last long enough.
>
> There are not many Dvorak keyboards available, but here some I have found
> (I
> have used none of these):
> http://typematrix.com
> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
> http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-layouts-dvorak
> http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-dvorak-simplified-touchdown-black-usb
>
And thanks for these.
Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


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by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Weaver]

> On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:22:35 +, Raf Czlonka wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote:
>>> Hello all.
>>> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the
>>> greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even
>>> delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a
>>> Dvorak keyboard into the system.
>>>
>>> Who makes the best ones?
>>> Where can they be bought from.
>>
>> Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device.
>
> I'd say it can match both assertions.
>
>> You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might
>> this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can
>> buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong
>> with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout?
>
> That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one
> printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in
> your head and type without looking at the keyboard.

Yes, I need this keyboard to learn with.
Thanks,

Apologies to those I've been sending unintentional personal replies to.
Regards,

Weaver.
-- 


Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful.

— Lucius Annæus Seneca.

Terrorism, the new religion.



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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Dan Serban]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800
"Weaver"  wrote:

> Hello all.
> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater
> typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
> moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
> keyboard into the system.

While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the
colemak layout as well.  This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak.
Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference.

http://colemak.com


> Who makes the best ones?
> Where can they be bought from.
> 
> Thanks for any time and trouble.
> Regards,
> 
> Weaver.


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Lisi]

On Friday 06 January 2012 20:07:57 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> Model M keyboards as these are the ones you referring to, originally made
> by IBM, are still widely available either from your local second hand
> computer shop or from eBay or you can still buy them new from Unicomp.

Thanks.  Worth knowing!

Lisi


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Raf Czlonka]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:37:21PM GMT, Lisi wrote:
> On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> > What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard
> 
> How do you do that?  I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you 
> could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent.

On laptops or cheap PS2/USB keyboards it's might be tricky.
Model M keyboards as these are the ones you referring to, originally made
by IBM, are still widely available either from your local second hand
computer shop or from eBay or you can still buy them new from Unicomp.

Cherry makes nice keyboards (the MX ones) or you can buy "Das Keyboard"
(available blank as well as printed) which AFAIK is based on Cherry.

Regards,
-- 
Raf


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Lisi]

On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard

How do you do that?  I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you 
could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent.

Lisi


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[green]

Weaver wrote at 2012-01-06 10:39 -0700:
> idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system.
> 
> Who makes the best ones?
> Where can they be bought from.

You can use any keyboard as Dvorak, but I prefer to have properly labeled 
keys, and none of marker, paint, and stickers last long enough.

There are not many Dvorak keyboards available, but here some I have found (I 
have used none of these):
http://typematrix.com
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-layouts-dvorak
http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-dvorak-simplified-touchdown-black-usb


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Raf Czlonka]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:37:16PM GMT, Camaleón wrote:
> That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one 
> printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in 
> your head and type without looking at the keyboard.

That's why I suggested a blank as it won't confuse you or swap the keys.
It's not really that hard to memorise the full keyboard layout and learn
to touch type.

Regards,
-- 
Raf


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Raf Czlonka]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:32:06PM GMT, Lisi wrote:
> On Friday 06 January 2012 18:22:35 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> > What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout?
> 
> Because you wouldn't know where the letters are?  I think that Weaver means a 
> physical keyboard, not the choice of layout in your OS.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. This should have been:
What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard
and changing the layout at the same time (I'm aware it won't be 100%)?
This way one can try it out without spending money and changing their
mind. Later it's time to start learning to touch type.

Regards,
-- 
Raf


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:22:35 +, Raf Czlonka wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote:
>> Hello all.
>> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the
>> greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even
>> delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a
>> Dvorak keyboard into the system.
>> 
>> Who makes the best ones?
>> Where can they be bought from.
> 
> Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device. 

I'd say it can match both assertions.

> You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might 
> this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can
> buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong
> with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout?

That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one 
printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in 
your head and type without looking at the keyboard.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Lisi]

On Friday 06 January 2012 18:22:35 Raf Czlonka wrote:
> What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout?

Because you wouldn't know where the letters are?  I think that Weaver means a 
physical keyboard, not the choice of layout in your OS.

Lisi


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Re: Dvorak Keyboards.

[Raf Czlonka]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote:
> Hello all.
> I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater
> typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed
> moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak
> keyboard into the system.
> 
> Who makes the best ones?
> Where can they be bought from.

Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device.
You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might this
doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can buy
a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it.
What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout?

Regards,
-- 
Raf


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Re: OT: Safe Type (was Re: DVORAK)

[Alex Malinovich]

On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 09:43 -0700, Dave Carrigan wrote:
--snip--
> The number pad is cumbersome. I'm an emacs guy, so I rarely use the
> arrow keys anyway, but when I have to use them, it's a PITA. However,
> that was easily solved for me by buying a USB number pad; it works fine
> with X, and it even works fine in Windows XP running inside VMWare.

I'm enlightened as well :), so I don't use the arrow keys much, but
there are more and more things which are breaking emacs keybindings
nowadays. The big thing for me is the number pad. I do a lot of number
crunching and doing the top row just won't cut it for me. I'm also
hesitant to get a separate keypad because I've used them before for my
laptop and just doesn't feel right. When I have to switch 'feel' between
typing and doing numbers I don't adjust very well.

But in looking at their site more I saw that they do have a guarantee on
the keyboards, so I'll probably buy one and try it and see if the keypad
issue is one I can live with or not. With that once exception, I'm very
impressed with the keyboard. Now I just have to try it and see how it
feels.

-- 
Alex Malinovich
Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY!
Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the
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Re: OT: Safe Type (was Re: DVORAK)

[Dave Carrigan]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 06:53:23PM -0500, Alex Malinovich wrote:

> How does the safe type feel for you? 

As I say, it's the only way I can type comfortably for longer than an
hour or so. I've used many other keyboards - plain flat ones, low-end
ergonomic ones and high-end ergonomic ones like the Kinesis. Anything
that requires pronation of my wrists will give me problems. However,
that's the nature of my injury; YMMV.

> Just looking at it, it certainly looks strange with the vertical
> layout, but I could certainly see where it could be comfortable. And
> by the looks of it, the number pad is BETWEEN the two upright
> sections? That seems rather cumbersome. 

The number pad is cumbersome. I'm an emacs guy, so I rarely use the
arrow keys anyway, but when I have to use them, it's a PITA. However,
that was easily solved for me by buying a USB number pad; it works fine
with X, and it even works fine in Windows XP running inside VMWare.

If you're very used to hitting your arrow keys and home/end etc., you
will find the Safetype not very usable without an external keypad. 

-- 
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Seattle, WA, USA
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OT: Safe Type (was Re: DVORAK)

[Alex Malinovich]

On Tue, 2005-06-07 at 08:43 -0700, Dave Carrigan wrote:
--snip--
> Dunno. I use a Safeytpe; any keyboard that requires me to rotate my hands
> even semi-flat exacerbates the tendinitis to the point where I can't type
> after an hour or two. With a Safetype, I can type all day, but you pretty
> much have to be a touch typist since you can't see the keys. However, I
> doubt that dvorak/qwerty makes much of a difference.

Wow. That's the first time I heard of that keyboard. Just looked it up
and it looks very... interesting... I've been using a natural keyboard
exclusively for about 7 years now and I find it much more comfortable
than a standard flat keyboard. But I'm always open for something that's
more comfortable.

How does the safe type feel for you? Just looking at it, it certainly
looks strange with the vertical layout, but I could certainly see where
it could be comfortable. And by the looks of it, the number pad is
BETWEEN the two upright sections? That seems rather cumbersome. Any
input appreciated. (My credit card started itching as soon as I saw the
keyboard. :) )

-- 
Alex Malinovich
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Re: DVORAK

[Steve Lamb]

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
How effective is Dvorak in programming enviroments?  Particularly Java, 
are the key layouts any better?


Speed in programming is more a function of the language you use and the 
tools with which you program said language.  A cheap explination, whom do you 
think would be faster at programming Java: person in notepad or person in vim 
(regardless of keyboard layout).  VIM's syntax highlighting, brace matching, 
auto-indention and a slew of other features would make that person far faster 
at coding even if they were 1/2 the typist of notepad user.  Worrying about 
layout speed in relatition to coding is contrary to the old addage; it's 
working harder, not smarter.


--
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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Re: DVORAK, reptitive stress

[Alban Browaeys]

Le Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:32:33 -0400, Michael Z Daryabeygi a écrit :


> Has there been some scientific study that shows that dvorak somehow 
> redistributes the "load" so as to cause less strain?  I doubt it, it is 
> the same mechanics, I don't believe that the problem is a pattern of the 
> keystrokes.  It is still a keyboard, there are right ways and wrong ways 
> to use one.  I think mouses are evil, I am most happy with the pointer 
> stick on my thinkpad (at maximum sensitivity), but I still have to be 
> careful with it. Again, "relax" and "move from the center", i.e. 
> distribute the load.

qwerty was designed to avoid you typing too fast ... obviously
against the "chi" :)

dvorak was designed with the same concepts without the needs to prevent
damage on the typewriter (thus most used keys are in the middle instead of
behing spread around it).



Also debian dvorak support is not perfect for non english keyboards (we
miss dvorak-fr and such ).

By the way for the cases where you need to work on other boxes, nowadays
one can carry a usb keys with the X/console dvorak maps, windows drivers
...). Well one have to made its own by nows that s the bad news.

Regards
Alban
 




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Re: DVORAK

[Dave Carrigan]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 09:57:30PM -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote:

> Questions for you and others now using Dvorak: I could change my own keyboard 
> to whatever I want, but I know I'll still have to use other keyboards, and 
> I've been using QWERTY for close to 30 years.  So:
> 
> 1) How hard is it to change over?, 

It took me about a month to get to the point where I no longer had to
think about where the keys were. I did do regular drills and was
reasonably proficient after a couple of weeks.

> 2) Once you've changed over, how hard is it if you have to use Qwerty on 
> someone else's computer?, 

Not hard, I do it all the time. Also, it's quite easy to remap the
keyboard on any modern PC.

> 3) Does anyone know if it reduces problems like RSI or CT for one's
>wrists?

That's difficult to say. I have chronic tendinitis in my right hand.
It's possible that I wouldn't have it if I used qwerty. It's also
possible that it would be much worse if I used qwerty.

> 4) I use a natural keyboard, which helps a lot.  Does that make a difference 
> with Dvorak?

Dunno. I use a Safeytpe; any keyboard that requires me to rotate my hands
even semi-flat exacerbates the tendinitis to the point where I can't type
after an hour or two. With a Safetype, I can type all day, but you pretty
much have to be a touch typist since you can't see the keys. However, I
doubt that dvorak/qwerty makes much of a difference.

-- 
Dave Carrigan
Seattle, WA, USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.rudedog.org/ | ICQ:161669680
UNIX-Apache-Perl-Linux-Firewalls-LDAP-C-C++-DNS-PalmOS-PostgreSQL-MySQL


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Re: DVORAK

[Dave Carrigan]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 07:41:09PM -0500, Steve Block wrote:

> a) the myth that qwerty was designed to slow you down is a lie. qwerty
> was designed to keep mechanical keys from binding, which is more layout
> related than speed related.

Maybe, maybe not. However, I do type faster on Dvorak than I did on Qwerty. I
switched to Dvorak about 7 years ago, and had been touch-typing on qwerty for
15 years before that.

> b) almost everyone's keyboard is qwerty or some very similar variation.
> When you sit down at someone else's machine or a public machine you'll
> just be at the wrong key layout, which will mess with your dvorak
> learning.

No, I can switch-hit on a qwerty keyboard in a pinch, although I am
somewhat slower. It takes about 10 minutes for the muscle memory to
reset. Still, I will remap the keys to dvorak if I can (and map them
back when I'm done) since it really isn't difficult to change the
mapping on most modern PCs.

> c) if anyone ever has need to use your machine they will be pretty much
> out of luck unless you reorder your key caps so they can find the keys.
> Ever try to log into a dvorak machine when you remember your network
> password by key position and not the actual letters?

Most graphical environments the ability to switch between keyboard
layouts with the mouse. In Windows and KDE, these are tray icons.

> d) the myth that dvorak is faster than qwerty is just that, as any
> decent amount of searching will show.

You are repeating yourself. And contrary to what you say, I am a faster
typist since switching. I also make fewer typos.

> e) if you are already an accomplished touch typer in the qwerty system
> you'll have to relearn your typing skills pretty much from scratch.

Yes, you will, but not from scratch, not by a long shot. It took me
about a month to reach the speed I had pre-switch. It took me probably
two years to start getting to that speed when I was learning
touch-typing with qwerty. Not because qwerty is harder - it would have
probably taken a similar amount of time if I had started with
dvorak. Most of your touch-typing skills easily transfer to dvorak.

> In short, change if you want to, but I found the effort much too high
> for any percieved potential reward.

I am happy I switched.

-- 
Dave Carrigan
Seattle, WA, USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.rudedog.org/ | ICQ:161669680
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Re: DVORAK

[Conrad Newton]

>From Hal Vaughan on Monday, 2005-06-06 at 21:57:30 -0400:
> On Monday 06 June 2005 09:48 pm, p wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:46:01PM -0600, Cam wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > So after a few years of hearing of the DVORAK layout (and noticing
> > > that it seems like my left hand is doing all the work w/ QWERTY), i'd
> > > like to try to make the switch... here's my major concern though (and
> > > perhaps this isn't really an issue, i'd like to hear the advice from
> > > others that have given DVORAK a spin).  How does DVORAK work w/ apps
> > > like vim, nethack, etc.? the key-layouts seem to be fairly logical and
> > > i would hate to lose them, is there some sort of patch--or is that too
> > > ugly?  Is it worth the switch?

I use dvorak and vim.  From my point of view, the layout is both
natural and comfortable.  I was an accomplished qwerty typist,
and now I am an accomplished dvorak typist.  I doubt that my
typing speed is that different than it was before, but I am
more comfortable.

> > Dvorak  is  quite nice.   I  could never go
> > back  to  Qwerty (where  I was  pretty much
> > "clawing" at the keys.  *ouch*).

My perception is that with qwerty, I was always bouncing 
around the keyboard.  My hands are much quieter with dvorak.

> Questions for you and others now using Dvorak: I could change my own keyboard 
> to whatever I want, but I know I'll still have to use other keyboards, and 
> I've been using QWERTY for close to 30 years.  So:
> 
> 1) How hard is it to change over?, 

Took me about one month to feel comfortable.  I went cold turkey
on qwerty, and I have now given up on it entirely.

Others in the family curse when they start typing at my keyboard
without checking the keyboard, but I have eased their pain with
aliases such as "se=setxkbmap se" and "no=setxkbmap no", and
(to get you out of dvorak) "o.=setxkbmap se" and "br=setxkbmap no".

With KDE you can also have an icon on the panel to indicate your
current keyboard, and toggle to different ones.

> 2) Once you've changed over, how hard is it if you have to use Qwerty on 
> someone else's computer?, 

Difficult.  I do not get much practice.  If you maintain your
qwerty skill, I imagine you could be "bilingual".

> 3) Does anyone know if it reduces problems like RSI or CT for one's wrists?

Not a scientific answer, but I can tell you that I feel more
comfortable.  This has been the main reason for me to stick
with dvorak, since the change in typing speed has not been
dramatic -- I should add that I am not primarily a writer.

I use a mix of mouse and keyboard, and I have never had any
problems with RSI or CT.  Occasionally, when I have a lot
of high-speed writing to do, I do feel the strain on my
wrists.

> 4) I use a natural keyboard, which helps a lot.  Does that make a difference 
> with Dvorak?

No idea.

Conrad


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Re: DVORAK

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 10:17:26PM -0400, Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> 
> How effective is Dvorak in programming enviroments?  Particularly Java, are 
> the 
> key layouts any better?
> 

No more or less effective than anything else.  Its effectiveness is a
function of *how* you type, not what you type.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: DVORAK

[Clinton V. Weiss]

Cam wrote:

Hi,

So after a few years of hearing of the DVORAK layout (and noticing
that it seems like my left hand is doing all the work w/ QWERTY), i'd
like to try to make the switch... here's my major concern though (and
perhaps this isn't really an issue, i'd like to hear the advice from
others that have given DVORAK a spin).  How does DVORAK work w/ apps
like vim, nethack, etc.? the key-layouts seem to be fairly logical and
i would hate to lose them, is there some sort of patch--or is that too
ugly?  Is it worth the switch?

thanks,
Cameron Matheson


How effective is Dvorak in programming enviroments?  Particularly Java, 
are the key layouts any better?


Clinton


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Re: DVORAK

[Brian Nelson]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 09:57:30PM -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> Questions for you and others now using Dvorak: I could change my own keyboard 
> to whatever I want, but I know I'll still have to use other keyboards, and 
> I've been using QWERTY for close to 30 years.  So:
> 
> 1) How hard is it to change over?, 

It took me about a week for the layout to not feel really awkward, and
about a month until I was near my original speed with QWERTY.

> 2) Once you've changed over, how hard is it if you have to use Qwerty on 
> someone else's computer?, 

If you exclusively use Dvorak, I found it very hard to go back to
QWERTY.  Eventually, I purposely made the layout on my laptop QWERTY and
the layout on my desktop Dvorak so that I could train myself to easily
switch between the two.

> 3) Does anyone know if it reduces problems like RSI or CT for one's wrists?

This was the primary motivation for the switch, and I found it did help
to an extent.  For typing prose, I found it significantly reduced strain
in my wrists.  However, for coding, especially in C-like languages where
; and {} characters are very frequently used, I found Dvorak less
optimal than QWERTY.

Since currently ~80% of my typing is C++ code, I dropped Dvorak
altogether because it was not providing any benefit.  However, if in the
future I (God forbid) go into upper management and cease heavy
programming, I will most likely switch back to Dvorak.

> 4) I use a natural keyboard, which helps a lot.  Does that make a difference 
> with Dvorak?

If you wish to maintain your proficiency with QWERTY while switching to
Dvorak, I suggest only using Dvorak on your natural keyboard and only
QWERTY on keyboards with standard layouts.  That way, you'll train your
hands to immediately recognize the natural keyboard and instinctively
type in Dvorak.  Otherwise you'll probably find your hands switching
layouts in mgh ;dlkdlid (mid sentence).

-- 
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pretend to like each other.


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Re: DVORAK, reptitive stress

[Michael Z Daryabeygi]

I've never used Dvorak and I was never properly trained to touch type. 
But after sitting at a computer 40 hours a week for two years, I finally 
began to look away from the keyboard.  And my typing speed just gets 
faster with time.
Bottom line, familiarity is what gives you speed.  Well, if you do the 
same wrong thing over and over, you never get better.  Consistent 
mindful practice and pushing for speed will get you there.


Second, unlike many people, I prefer my laptop keyboard to a full size 
keyboard.  It is a thinkpad which is famous for quality keyboards, but I 
think the main thing is that it is slightly smaller and is just the 
right size for my hands.
I practice tai chi.  From that I learned the importance of structure. 
When I start to feel strain, I look at what I am doing and change 
something.  And apply the tai chi motto, "relax".tension is what 
causes damage.  If you have problems, pay attention to your wrists, 
elbows and shoulders, your whole posture really.


There is a stretch I can not live without.  I call it the tea cup 
exercise.  Imagine you are holding a hot tea cup on each palm in front 
of your chest and don't spill them.  Drop your hands to your waist. 
rotate your fingers towards your body as you move your hands behind you. 
 Then continue to spiral them outwards, behind and finally upwards. 
Let them cross again in front of you, about as high as your chin, your 
thumbs are outwards at this point.  with your arms crossed, raise them 
above your head and uncross them above and behind your head. Rotate 
outwards until they return to front(about shoulder height) and drop them 
to the starting position.  Do it a few times then reverse the direction.

Don't force it, your arms will form the proper shape if you let them.
And remember, don't spill!  You will need a mirror at first.
This relieves any tension I have in neck, shoulders and wrists.

Has there been some scientific study that shows that dvorak somehow 
redistributes the "load" so as to cause less strain?  I doubt it, it is 
the same mechanics, I don't believe that the problem is a pattern of the 
keystrokes.  It is still a keyboard, there are right ways and wrong ways 
to use one.  I think mouses are evil, I am most happy with the pointer 
stick on my thinkpad (at maximum sensitivity), but I still have to be 
careful with it. Again, "relax" and "move from the center", i.e. 
distribute the load.



--
~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`
Michael Z Daryabeygi
Database Applications Developer
Sligo Computer Services Co-op
www.sligowebworks.com
301.270.9673 x 304
~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`~,~`


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Re: DVORAK

[David P James]

On Mon 6 June 2005 21:57, Hal Vaughan wrote:

>
> Questions for you and others now using Dvorak: I could change my own
> keyboard to whatever I want, but I know I'll still have to use other
> keyboards, and I've been using QWERTY for close to 30 years.  So:
>
> 1) How hard is it to change over?,

It's best to do it when you have a few weeks when you absolutely won't 
be using QWERTY.

>
> 2) Once you've changed over, how hard is it if you have to use Qwerty
> on someone else's computer?,

On someone else's, not hard at all. On your own however is another 
story...

I don't actually use a pure Dvorak keyboard - the home and upper rows 
are but I've reconfigured the bottom row and some of the non-letter 
characters to resemble the QWERTY layout more closely since they're 
used less and it's harder to remember their new locations. This has 
helped to preserve some of the common bottom-left keyboard shortcuts 
(with "Cut" bound to 'K' which is in the QWERTY 'C' location in KDE) 
and characters like the forward slash. I humbly call the layout 
"Davidian" :).

Regards,
-- 
David P James
Ottawa, Ontario
http://david.jamesnet.ca
ICQ: #42891899, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Noone isn't no one


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Re: DVORAK

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 09:57:30PM -0400, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> 
> Questions for you and others now using Dvorak: I could change my own keyboard 
> to whatever I want, but I know I'll still have to use other keyboards, and 
> I've been using QWERTY for close to 30 years.  So:
> 
> 1) How hard is it to change over?, 
> 
The initial shock is the hardest thing to overcome.  Once your hands are
used to the different motions and key locations, you will pick it up
fiarly quickly.

> 2) Once you've changed over, how hard is it if you have to use Qwerty on 
> someone else's computer?, 
> 
I never really had a problem with this.  I used Dvorak at home and
qwerty everywhere else without any confusion at all.

> 3) Does anyone know if it reduces problems like RSI or CT for one's wrists?
> 
I believe one of the goals of the Dvorak layout was to minimze the
movement of your fingers, so I would imagine it reduces the risks.

> 4) I use a natural keyboard, which helps a lot.  Does that make a difference 
> with Dvorak?
> 
Not sure.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: DVORAK

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 07:41:09PM -0500, Steve Block wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:46:01PM -0600, Cam wrote:
> 
> d) the myth that dvorak is faster than qwerty is just that, as any
> decent amount of searching will show.
> 
Your statement is the myth.  Having learned to properly type on both
QWERTY and Dvorak layouts, I can honestly say that I type 10-25% faster
on a Dvorak keyboard.

> e) if you are already an accomplished touch typer in the qwerty system
> you'll have to relearn your typing skills pretty much from scratch.
> 
This is true.  It takes quite a bit of effort over a period of time to
get it down to the same level of proficiency as on a QWERTY keyboard.

-Roberto

-- 
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http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: DVORAK

[Hal Vaughan]

On Monday 06 June 2005 09:48 pm, p wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:46:01PM -0600, Cam wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > So after a few years of hearing of the DVORAK layout (and noticing
> > that it seems like my left hand is doing all the work w/ QWERTY), i'd
> > like to try to make the switch... here's my major concern though (and
> > perhaps this isn't really an issue, i'd like to hear the advice from
> > others that have given DVORAK a spin).  How does DVORAK work w/ apps
> > like vim, nethack, etc.? the key-layouts seem to be fairly logical and
> > i would hate to lose them, is there some sort of patch--or is that too
> > ugly?  Is it worth the switch?
> >
> > thanks,
> > Cameron Matheson
>
> Dvorak  is  quite nice.   I  could never go
> back  to  Qwerty (where  I was  pretty much
> "clawing" at the keys.  *ouch*).
>
>
> ...sorry, I've never used those  apps  (vim
> and  nechack),  so  I  couldn't  say if the
> layouts  are  "logical"  in  Dvorak.  I use
> nvi and things seem fine.
>
> I did myself a favor when I learned Dvorak.
>
> Luck.

Questions for you and others now using Dvorak: I could change my own keyboard 
to whatever I want, but I know I'll still have to use other keyboards, and 
I've been using QWERTY for close to 30 years.  So:

1) How hard is it to change over?, 

2) Once you've changed over, how hard is it if you have to use Qwerty on 
someone else's computer?, 

3) Does anyone know if it reduces problems like RSI or CT for one's wrists?

4) I use a natural keyboard, which helps a lot.  Does that make a difference 
with Dvorak?

Thanks!

Hal 


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Re: DVORAK

[Steve Block]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:46:01PM -0600, Cam wrote:

Hi,

So after a few years of hearing of the DVORAK layout (and noticing
that it seems like my left hand is doing all the work w/ QWERTY), i'd
like to try to make the switch... here's my major concern though (and
perhaps this isn't really an issue, i'd like to hear the advice from
others that have given DVORAK a spin).  How does DVORAK work w/ apps
like vim, nethack, etc.? the key-layouts seem to be fairly logical and
i would hate to lose them, is there some sort of patch--or is that too
ugly?  Is it worth the switch?


Having tried it once let me say that it is not worth it. 


a) the myth that qwerty was designed to slow you down is a lie. qwerty
was designed to keep mechanical keys from binding, which is more layout
related than speed related.

b) almost everyone's keyboard is qwerty or some very similar variation.
When you sit down at someone else's machine or a public machine you'll
just be at the wrong key layout, which will mess with your dvorak
learning.

c) if anyone ever has need to use your machine they will be pretty much
out of luck unless you reorder your key caps so they can find the keys.
Ever try to log into a dvorak machine when you remember your network
password by key position and not the actual letters?

d) the myth that dvorak is faster than qwerty is just that, as any
decent amount of searching will show.

e) if you are already an accomplished touch typer in the qwerty system
you'll have to relearn your typing skills pretty much from scratch.

In short, change if you want to, but I found the effort much too high
for any percieved potential reward.

--
Steve Block
http://ev-15.com/
http://steveblock.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: DVORAK

[p]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:46:01PM -0600, Cam wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> So after a few years of hearing of the DVORAK layout (and noticing
> that it seems like my left hand is doing all the work w/ QWERTY), i'd
> like to try to make the switch... here's my major concern though (and
> perhaps this isn't really an issue, i'd like to hear the advice from
> others that have given DVORAK a spin).  How does DVORAK work w/ apps
> like vim, nethack, etc.? the key-layouts seem to be fairly logical and
> i would hate to lose them, is there some sort of patch--or is that too
> ugly?  Is it worth the switch?
> 
> thanks,
> Cameron Matheson
> 
>

Dvorak  is  quite nice.   I  could never go
back  to  Qwerty (where  I was  pretty much 
"clawing" at the keys.  *ouch*).  


...sorry, I've never used those  apps  (vim
and  nechack),  so  I  couldn't  say if the  
layouts  are  "logical"  in  Dvorak.  I use 
nvi and things seem fine.

I did myself a favor when I learned Dvorak.

Luck.

b. 
 

is logical for their key-layouts.
 


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Re: DVORAK

[Roberto C. Sanchez]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 03:46:01PM -0600, Cam wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> So after a few years of hearing of the DVORAK layout (and noticing
> that it seems like my left hand is doing all the work w/ QWERTY), i'd
> like to try to make the switch... here's my major concern though (and
> perhaps this isn't really an issue, i'd like to hear the advice from
> others that have given DVORAK a spin).  How does DVORAK work w/ apps
> like vim, nethack, etc.? the key-layouts seem to be fairly logical and
> i would hate to lose them, is there some sort of patch--or is that too
> ugly?  Is it worth the switch?
> 
> thanks,
> Cameron Matheson

I used Dvorak for a while, but had to switch back because my wife
couldn't stand it.  I may get a USB Dvorak to use just for myself,
though, since I found my self much more productive.

Apps like Vim, where the key layout is based on mnemonics, are only a
problem while you are getting accustomed to the new layout.  Once that
happens, you just know where to find the keys.  P is always paste
before, i is always insert, etc.  For apps (mostly games) that rely on
positioning of keys to make sense (e.g., the classic a-w-s-d, or j-i-k-l
sequences for left-up-down-right movement) are totally out the window.
Thanfully, most programs nowadays let your remap the key bindings, so it
is not a real issue.  Just find a sane set of keybindings you like and
use it.

In short, don't hold back.  Just give it a shot, you will really like
it.

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr


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Re: dvorak keyboard

[Jesse Meyer]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Nori Heikkinen wrote:

> i've been getting enough questions off-list (of a few lists, not just
> this one) about my experiences with the dvorak keyboard layout that i
> finally wrote them up:
> 
>   http://www.maenad.net/geek/dvorak/
> 
> in case anyone's interested.

http://www.maenad.net/geek/dvorak/node24.html

Last link 'dvorak.txt' seems dead.

~ Jesse Meyer


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Re: dvorak keyboard

[p]

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 04:56:40PM -0500, Nori Heikkinen wrote:
> i've been getting enough questions off-list (of a few lists, not just
> this one) about my experiences with the dvorak keyboard layout that i
> finally wrote them up:
> 
>   http://www.maenad.net/geek/dvorak/
> 
> in case anyone's interested.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> .~.  nori @ sccs.swarthmore.edu
> /V\  http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~nori/jnl/
>// \\  @ maenad.net
>   /(   )\   www.maenad.net
>^`~'^

//

...looks good to me.

nicely done!

kthxbye. 

b. (using dvorak for the last 21 months.)

//  


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Re: Dvorak keyboard layout

[Krzys Majewski]

On the console,

loadkeys  /usr/local/share/keymaps/dvorak.map

although the location of this file seems to have changed at some point.
It used to be 

/usr/lib/kbd/keytables/dvorak.map.

In X, you'll need put the appropriate file in ~/.Xmodmap. 
I'll attach one here, hope nobody minds..


!
! This is an `xmodmap' input file
! for PC 101 key keyboard #2 (Linux/XFree86 US layout) keyboards.
! This file was automatically generated on Wed Nov  2 10:29:07 1994
! by Ryszard Mikke with XKeyCaps 2.11;
! Copyright 1991-1994 Jamie Zawinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
!
! This file makes the following changes:
!
! The "& 7" key generates 7, ampersand, and section
! The "E" key generates e, E, ecircumflex, and Ecircumflex
! The "O" key generates o, O, oacute, and Oacute
! The "A" key generates a, A, plusminus, and exclamdown
! The "S" key generates s, S, paragraph, and brokenbar
! The "L" key generates l, L, threesuperior, and sterling
! The "Z" key generates z, Z, questiondown, and macron
! The "X" key generates x, X, onequarter, and notsign
! The "C" key generates c, C, ae, and AE
! The "N" key generates n, N, ntilde, and Ntilde
! The "Alt" key generates Mode_switch

keycode 0x09 =  Escape
keycode 0x43 =  F1
keycode 0x44 =  F2
keycode 0x45 =  F3
keycode 0x46 =  F4
keycode 0x47 =  F5
keycode 0x48 =  F6
keycode 0x49 =  F7
keycode 0x4A =  F8
keycode 0x4B =  F9
keycode 0x4C =  F10
keycode 0x5F =  F11
keycode 0x60 =  F12
keycode 0x6F =  Print
keycode 0x4E =  Multi_key
keycode 0x6E =  Pause
keycode 0x31 =  grave   asciitilde
keycode 0x0A =  1   exclam
keycode 0x0B =  2   at
keycode 0x0C =  3   numbersign
keycode 0x0D =  4   dollar
keycode 0x0E =  5   percent
keycode 0x0F =  6   asciicircum
keycode 0x10 =  7   ampersand   section
keycode 0x11 =  8   asterisk
keycode 0x12 =  9   parenleft
keycode 0x13 =  0   parenright
keycode 0x14 =  minus   underscore
keycode 0x15 =  equal   plus
keycode 0x33 =  backslash   bar
keycode 0x16 =  BackSpace
keycode 0x6A =  Insert
keycode 0x61 =  Home
keycode 0x63 =  Prior
keycode 0x4D =  Num_Lock
keycode 0x70 =  KP_Divide
keycode 0x3F =  KP_Multiply
keycode 0x52 =  KP_Subtract
keycode 0x17 =  Tab
keycode 0x18 =  slash   question
keycode 0x19 =  comma   less
keycode 0x1A =  period  greater
keycode 0x1B =  p   P
keycode 0x1C =  y   Y
keycode 0x1D =  f   F
keycode 0x1E =  g   G
keycode 0x1F =  c   C   ae  AE
keycode 0x20 =  r   R
keycode 0x21 =  l   L   threesuperior   sterling
keycode 0x22 =  bracketleft braceleft
keycode 0x23 =  bracketrightbraceright
keycode 0x24 =  Return
keycode 0x6B =  Delete
keycode 0x67 =  End
keycode 0x69 =  Next
keycode 0x4F =  KP_7
keycode 0x50 =  KP_8
keycode 0x51 =  KP_9
keycode 0x56 =  KP_Add
keycode 0x42 =  Control_L
keycode 0x26 =  a   A   plusminus   exclamdown
keycode 0x27 =  o   O   oacute  Oacute
keycode 0x28 =  e   E   ecircumflex Ecircumflex
keycode 0x29 =  u   U
keycode 0x2A =  i   I
keycode 0x2B =  d   D
keycode 0x2C =  h   H
keycode 0x2D =  t   T
keycode 0x2E =  n   N   ntilde  Ntilde
keycode 0x2F =  s   S   paragraph   brokenbar
keycode 0x30 =  apostrophe  quotedbl
keycode 0x53 =  KP_4
keycode 0x54 =  KP_5
keycode 0x55 =  KP_6
keycode 0x32 =  Shift_L
keycode 0x34 =  semicolon   colon   
keycode 0x35 =  q   Q
keycode 0x36 =  j   J
keycode 0x37 =  k   K
keycode 0x38 =  x   X   onequarter  notsign
keycode 0x39 =  b   B
keycode 0x3A =  M
keycode 0x3B =  w   W
keycode 0x3C =  v   V
keycode 0x3D =  z   Z   questiondownmacron
keycode 0x3E =  Shift_R
keycode 0x62 =  Up
keycode 0x57 =  KP_1
keycode 0x58 =  KP_2
keycode 0x59 =  KP_3
keycode 0x6C =  KP_Enter
keycode 0x25 =  Caps_Lock
keycode 0x40 =  Alt_L   Meta_L
keycode 0x41 =  space
keycode 0x71 =  Mode_switch
keycode 0x6D =  Control_R
keycode 0x64 =  Left
keycode 0x68 =  Down
keycode 0x66 =  Right
keycode 0x5A =  KP_0
keycode 0x5B =  KP_Decimal

clear Shift
clear Lock
clear Control
clear Mod1
clear Mod2
clear Mod3
clear Mod4
clear Mod5

addShift   = Shift_L Shift_R
addLock= Caps_Lock
addControl = Control_L Control_R
addMod1= Alt_L Mode_switch

Re: Dvorak keyboard layout

[Mike Brownlow]

John S. J. Anderson wrote:
> > "Owen" == Owen G Emry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Owen> Can someone tell me how to switch to the Dvorak keyboard layout?
> Owen> I dimly recall the debian boot diskette asking to choose a
> Owen> keyboard layout, but I don't know how to change it on an
> Owen> installed system.
> 
> The answers from others should work for console, but if you need to do
> this under X, you need to use xmodmap to remap the keys. I've got a
> xmodmap file to do this; mail me if you'd like it.
> 
> john.

I've gotten it to work by changing /etc/XF86Config to use the
dvorak layout:

3.3.x: In the section "Keyboard"
XkbSymbols "qwertydvorak(generic101)"

Where /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/symbols/qwertydvorak is a combination
of the basic dvorak layout and the "us" layout's special keys (like
more modifer-keys, functionkeys, keypad, etc). I can provide the
file upon request. (Is there a better way to do this?)

4.0.x: In the section "InputDevice" with identifier "keyboard"
Option  "XkbLayout"  "dvorak(basic)"

In 4.0.x, the default dvorak configuration is similar to 3.3.x, but the
modifer keys and friends work somehow...hmm... I still need to look into
this more.

I'd like to see what you have John, I could use that on the X
terminals st school..

My .02

-- 
( Mike Brownlow | http://wsmake.org/~mike/ | http://wsmake.org/ )
( "A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge  )
( is easy unto him that understandeth." Proverbs 14:6   )

Re: Dvorak keyboard layout

[Brendan Cully]

On Saturday, 29 July 2000 at 21:19, John S. J. Anderson wrote:
> > "Owen" == Owen G Emry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> Owen> Can someone tell me how to switch to the Dvorak keyboard layout?
> Owen> I dimly recall the debian boot diskette asking to choose a
> Owen> keyboard layout, but I don't know how to change it on an
> Owen> installed system.
> 
> The answers from others should work for console, but if you need to do
> this under X, you need to use xmodmap to remap the keys. I've got a
> xmodmap file to do this; mail me if you'd like it.

or, in the new style, "setxkbmap dvorak". Of course in 3.3.6 this
requires a little tomfoolery with xkb/rules/xfree86 if you happen to
be using, say, the pc104 keyboard...

-Brendan


pgp228Ublpj3r.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Dvorak keyboard layout

[John S. J. Anderson]

> "Owen" == Owen G Emry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Owen> Can someone tell me how to switch to the Dvorak keyboard layout?
Owen> I dimly recall the debian boot diskette asking to choose a
Owen> keyboard layout, but I don't know how to change it on an
Owen> installed system.

The answers from others should work for console, but if you need to do
this under X, you need to use xmodmap to remap the keys. I've got a
xmodmap file to do this; mail me if you'd like it.

john.


-- 

   [ John S Jacobs Anderson ]-->mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[ Genehack: Not your daddy's weblog ]-->http://genehack.org>

Re: Dvorak keyboard layout

[Joey Tsai]

> Can someone tell me how to switch to the Dvorak keyboard layout?  I dimly
> recall the debian boot diskette asking to choose a keyboard layout, but I
> don't know how to change it on an installed system.

To change your default layout, use "kbdconfig".  You have to be root.

If you just want to switch layouts, you can do 

$ loadkeys /usr/share/keymaps/i386/dvorak/dvorak.kmap.gz

Any user can do this.


// jt

Re: Dvorak keyboard layout

[Eric G . Miller]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2000 at 06:45:23PM -0400, Owen G. Emry wrote:
> Can someone tell me how to switch to the Dvorak keyboard layout?  I
> dimly recall the debian boot diskette asking to choose a keyboard
> layout, but I don't know how to change it on an installed system.

kbconfig

-- 
According to MegaHAL:
The emu is a mass of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace.

Re: Dvorak keyboard in X?

[Jeff Noxon]

On Fri, Jun 19, 1998 at 02:00:33PM -0700, Keith Beattie wrote:
> Ian Keith Setford wrote:
> > 
> > I was wondering if the current xbase has support for a "dvorak" type
> > keyboard. If so, is it an option within xf86config?
> > 
> 
[snip]
> Perhaps there is another way to compensate for a "Dvoraked" keyboard
> (one where the keys have been re-arranged) but my guess is that would
> have to happen at the device-driver level.
[snip]

You can do this with the kbd package.  AFAIK there is no need to even
mess with X.  kbd comes with dvorak-l and dvorak-r key translation tables.
Try "man loadkeys"

Jeff


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Re: Dvorak keyboard in X?

[Keith Beattie]

Ian Keith Setford wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if the current xbase has support for a "dvorak" type
> keyboard. If so, is it an option within xf86config?
> 

If your "Dvorak" type keyboard is one that was made specifically to
have the Dvorak layout, then there shouldn't be any problems - the
keyboard itself sends the proper codes to the machine, only the layout
of the keys will be different.

If you have simply re-arranged the keys of (or put stickers on) your
keyboard, then using xmodmap to map the keys "back" to what you want
them to be, will work, but only *within* X.  Typing at the console (as
in loging in!) will be challenging as you will have to remember the
qwerty layout.  The same problems exist for WinNT.

Perhaps there is another way to compensate for a "Dvoraked" keyboard
(one where the keys have been re-arranged) but my guess is that would
have to happen at the device-driver level.

There is plenty of information about Dvorak keyboard issues on the web
(Yahoo has a category for it) including xmodmaprc and .emacs files,
but after a quick venture into using the Dvorak layout (for repetitive
stress injury reasons) I pretty much gave up realizing that the only
complete solution I could find was to buy a "real" Dvorak keyboard so
no software changes were necessary.  Those keyboards are quite
expensive though...

Luck,
Keith


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Re: Dvorak keybindings in X

[Adam Shand]

> > A question on behalf of a friend.  We have the dvorak key bindings working
> > fine in console mode but can't get them to work under X.
> 
> How did you do that?

it's an installation option.  i can't remember what the name of the
executable is if you want to run it again, but it walks you through what
keyboard settings you want when you install the os.

> One way is to use xmodmap, there's lots of info here:
> http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/unix.html

cool, thanks.  once i knew to look for xdvorak i found it pretty quick
with old trusty (altavista ;).

adam.

 Internet Alaska -
 4050 Lake Otis Adam Shand(v) +1 907 562 4638
 Anchorage, AlaskaSystems Administrator   (f) +1 907 562 1677
- http://larry.earthlight.co.nz --



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Re: Dvorak keybindings in X

[Keith Beattie]

Adam Shand wrote:
> 
> A question on behalf of a friend.  We have the dvorak key bindings working
> fine in console mode but can't get them to work under X.

How did you do that?

> 
> Can anyone point me in the right direction to get this to work under X as
> well?
> 

One way is to use xmodmap, there's lots of info here:
http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/unix.html

Keith


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