Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On 11 Jun 2002, Sean 'Shaleh' Perry wrote: > > On 11-Jun-2002 Dan Jacobson wrote: > > [Debian's default installation gives 2 year old emacs and 6 year old > > non-GNU awk, while sporting the "GNU/Linux" branding] > > > > Summary: Dan says the debian install process should at least > > ask/inform the user that he is not getting current official GNU tools > > despite the GNU on the box, and in some cases [awk] he isn't even > > getting a GNU tool. > > > > let's diffuse this one right here. > ^^^ ?defuse AC -- Anthony Campbell - running Linux GNU/Debian (Windows-free zone) For electronic books on the Assassins and on homeopathy, skeptical essays, and over 170 book reviews, go to: http://www.acampbell.org.uk/ Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. [Carl Sagan] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 07:01:47AM -0700, Sean 'Shaleh' Perry wrote: > > On 11-Jun-2002 Dan Jacobson wrote: > > [Debian's default installation gives 2 year old emacs and 6 year old > > non-GNU awk, while sporting the "GNU/Linux" branding] > > > > Summary: Dan says the debian install process should at least > > ask/inform the user that he is not getting current official GNU tools > > despite the GNU on the box, and in some cases [awk] he isn't even > > getting a GNU tool. > > > (cut) > as to the emacs version 20 was out a LONG time I still know emacs users who > haven't upgraded. For most new users emacs20 is just as good as 21. The two > large changes in 21 for newbies were a better X front end and console font > locking. Not to mention the fact that the books people will buy MIGHT support > 20 many are still for 19. Hi- I guess the guy that was bitching about Emacs20 didn't read the Antinews on his Emacs21 LOL :-)) Cheers Henry _ Micro$oft-Free Human 100% Debian GNU/Linux KMFMS "Bring the genome to the people! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.debian.org - www.debian-br.cipsga.org.br - www.debian-rs.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
At 2002-06-11T19:39:15Z, "Derrick 'dman' Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Well put, Kirk. There is no problem (other than length of a release > cycle, but this isn't the place to fix that). Thanks. I suspect the OP was a troll, but I just couldn't resist. :) -- Kirk Strauser The Strauser Group - http://www.strausergroup.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Kirk Strauser wrote: | At 2002-06-11T12:24:09Z, Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | > I'm talking about the most basic of user. All these names are foreign. | > He has just inserted the 8 woody CD's given to him by a friend and is | > following instructions. [snip most text] | So, once again, where is the problem? Well put, Kirk. There is no problem (other than length of a release cycle, but this isn't the place to fix that). -D -- A man of many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother. Proverbs 18:24 Jabber ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GnuPG key : http://dman.ddts.net/~dman/public_key.gpg pgpSqNQQFOTYD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On 11-Jun-2002 James Troup wrote: > "Sean 'Shaleh' Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> as I said, two years ago I found that random awk scripts worked >> better with mawk than gawk, this has likely changed. > > Err, actually you claimed that this (i.e. 'random awk scripts > work[ing] better') is why mawk is the default, but that's complete and > utter rubbish. indeed, got my history wrong. I *assumed* (and invoked the assume rule) that since we had a choice between mawk and gawk and went with mawk it was due to compatibility issues and not size. failure on my part. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
"Sean 'Shaleh' Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > as I said, two years ago I found that random awk scripts worked > better with mawk than gawk, this has likely changed. Err, actually you claimed that this (i.e. 'random awk scripts work[ing] better') is why mawk is the default, but that's complete and utter rubbish. Mawk is the default because it's small. It's been the default for as long as I can remember and/or have been in Debian which is considerably more than 2 years. (I'm also sceptical that you found valid awk scripts that "work better" with mawk versus gawk, but that's largely a side issue) -- James -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On 11-Jun-2002 James Troup wrote: > "Sean 'Shaleh' Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> As to the specific awk issue, when we made the choice mawk worked better on >> more scripts than gawk did. This may have changed in the last 2 years or so >> but was still valid when potato came out. > > Err, no. Mawk is the default because (since awk is a (virtual) > essential package,) it's important that the required/base version be > as as small as possible. mawk does _not_ work better on scripts, > compared to gawk. mawk is dead upstream and has been for several > years; it has several outstanding (non-trivial to fix) bugs that won't > be addresses any time soon. gawk on the other hand is actively > maintained upstream and has almost no outstanding (non-packaging) bugs > I'm aware of. > > If you're going to feed the trolls, at least feed them well... :-P > as I said, two years ago I found that random awk scripts worked better with mawk than gawk, this has likely changed. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
So if anyone wants to have any bearing on issues like which emacs the tasks select, you need to subscribe to debian-testing and respond to requests to test the task system. Coming sniveling and ccing BS to rms 6 months too late is not very effective. The tasks will select emacs21 in the major release after woody, FWIW. -- see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
%% Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: as> Sean 'Shaleh' Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> For most new users emacs20 is just as good as 21. The two large >> changes in 21 for newbies were a better X front end and console font >> locking. as> Also, better menus, toolbar, tooltips, automatic hscroll, as> hourglass, sane delete key setup (especially on terminals), as> wheelmouse support, language environment autosetup from locale, as> and probably some stuff I'm forgetting. Yes. I strongly agree that Emacs 21 is much better for newbies than Emacs 20. But, Emacs 21.2 is _still_ a little dodgy in places for me. I use 21 every day, but 20.7 is unquestionably more stable. I don't have any particular issues with Debian sticking with Emacs 20 for Woody. -- --- Paul D. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> HASMAT--HA Software Mthds & Tools "Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad Scientist --- These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
Sean 'Shaleh' Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > For most new users emacs20 is just as good as 21. The two large > changes in 21 for newbies were a better X front end and console font > locking. Also, better menus, toolbar, tooltips, automatic hscroll, hourglass, sane delete key setup (especially on terminals), wheelmouse support, language environment autosetup from locale, and probably some stuff I'm forgetting. -- Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - In a variety of flavors! UNIX enhancements aren't. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
"Sean 'Shaleh' Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > As to the specific awk issue, when we made the choice mawk worked better on > more scripts than gawk did. This may have changed in the last 2 years or so > but was still valid when potato came out. Err, no. Mawk is the default because (since awk is a (virtual) essential package,) it's important that the required/base version be as as small as possible. mawk does _not_ work better on scripts, compared to gawk. mawk is dead upstream and has been for several years; it has several outstanding (non-trivial to fix) bugs that won't be addresses any time soon. gawk on the other hand is actively maintained upstream and has almost no outstanding (non-packaging) bugs I'm aware of. If you're going to feed the trolls, at least feed them well... :-P -- James -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU (at least current GNU)
On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:01:47AM -0300, Klaus Imgrund wrote: > Looks fine to me. As basic user I don't even know what GNU is so I am > not too concerned about it. if you ever used ls, find or grep, you are already a user of GNU. the chances are big, that you use such basic tools. debian embraces GNU but is, thank to the DFSG, not limited to it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
At 2002-06-11T12:24:09Z, Dan Jacobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Summary: Dan says the debian install process should at least ask/inform > the user that he is not getting current official GNU tools despite the GNU > on the box, and in some cases [awk] he isn't even getting a GNU tool. You know, I use a lot of non-GNU tools (think Mozilla, for example). I've seen nothing at www.gnu.org that would lead me to believe that a distribution has to be 100% GNU and 100% current to get the GNU "brand", whatever that means. > I'm talking about the most basic of user. All these names are foreign. > He has just inserted the 8 woody CD's given to him by a friend and is > following instructions. How is this even an issue? The most basic user is likely to fall into one of two camps: 1) Knows the difference between mawk and gawk and can read a manual. No problems here; she can figure it out for herself. 2) Thinks that "awk" is the sound a bird makes and couldn't care less. No problems here; he won't be doing anything advanced enough to ever discover the issue, at least until he knows enough to 'apt-get install gawk'. > Why not install current _official_ versions of all GNU tools by default? > If there is something wrong with those tools then "go file a bug" with > their maintainers. You just perfectly described the 'unstable' distribution. Anyone who needs up-to-the-minute packages is perfectly free to join the fun and file bug reports. Since it was decided long ago that a stable distribution should be *stable*, regardless of arbitrary version numbers, new basic users get a working system. Advanced users are invited along with a distribution tailored to their needs. So, once again, where is the problem? -- Kirk Strauser The Strauser Group - http://www.strausergroup.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On 11-Jun-2002 Dan Jacobson wrote: > [Debian's default installation gives 2 year old emacs and 6 year old > non-GNU awk, while sporting the "GNU/Linux" branding] > > Summary: Dan says the debian install process should at least > ask/inform the user that he is not getting current official GNU tools > despite the GNU on the box, and in some cases [awk] he isn't even > getting a GNU tool. > let's diffuse this one right here. The GNU/ in GNU/Linux refers to the fact that Debian uses a Linux kernel and the GNU tools to make a coherent OS that most people refer to as "Linux". Which version of these tools is largely irrelevant for this purpose. That we ship non GNU tools as well is also largely a non-issue. It is better to give the user stability and security. As to the specific awk issue, when we made the choice mawk worked better on more scripts than gawk did. This may have changed in the last 2 years or so but was still valid when potato came out. as to the emacs version 20 was out a LONG time I still know emacs users who haven't upgraded. For most new users emacs20 is just as good as 21. The two large changes in 21 for newbies were a better X front end and console font locking. Not to mention the fact that the books people will buy MIGHT support 20 many are still for 19. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
Dan wrote: I'm thinking of the most basic user that sees the shiny GNU/Linux label and, thinking that debian is "more GNU" than the other Linux distributions, chooses debian, only to find out that if he wants GNU versions [gawk], or current versions [emacs21] he must do fancy maneuvers [apt-get]. Why not put the fancy maneuvers burden on the experts? I'd hardly call those actions 'fancy maneuvres'. Anyone that wants to be able to customise their install, should know how to install new packages. Anyone that is aware that he has 'old' tools, is capable of finding out how to install new packages. Anyone that isn't capable of finding out how to install packages, isn't capable of using Debian anyway. You are aiming at the people who's brief brush with Linux is to make a web server work and be done with it. As far as I have understood from previous discussions, the people contributing to the Debian project are not interested in popularity. They are certainly not 'aiming at the people ... '. If you think Debian should be attractive to those users, why don't _you_ do something about it? sincerely, Ivo Wever [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 08:24:09PM +0800, Dan Jacobson wrote: > Why not put the fancy maneuvers burden on the experts? Why not > install current _official_ versions of all GNU tools by default? If > there is something wrong with those tools then "go file a bug" with > their maintainers. So, why exactly don't you want to file bugs (and thus maybe actually get something done) rather than doing your best to kick up as much of a fuss as possible? I can't find a single bug from you in the bug tracking system. I've removed the Cc to RMS. Bugs are not an indication of malice towards the GNU Project! -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian is not GNU [at least current GNU]
> [Debian's default installation gives 2 year old emacs > and 6 year old non-GNU awk, while sporting the > "GNU/Linux" branding] > [snip] > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's hope he gets s much mail that he can't respond to the list about this (non-)issue !! Regards Hall -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
