Re: Developing flash on debian

[S.D.A.]

On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 03:06:06AM +0100 or thereabouts, Pigeon wrote:

[...]

> There is another issue that I can see with flash (and please correct
> me if I'm not accurate :-) ) which is the monolithic, binary nature of
> the files - in fact this leads to two issues:



You're quite right -- It's not called "rich media" for no reason. ;)

As consumers move to broadband, there is a demand for Rich Media front ends.
However, the astute web developer will allow for the needs of low bandwidth
consumers.

Even the 'wankers' that make the obscene splash pages, are getting a clue, in
that it's important to give one the choice to skip the intro.

-- 
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so there's still hope.


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Pigeon]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 09:09:27AM -0400, S.D.A. wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 08:54:09AM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> > That's true -- I wasn't aware of that.  However, that doesn't address
> > the issue that some people don't run Flash for one reason or another. 
> > Most of us have surrendered to Javascript, but that doesn't mean we
> > have to surrender to Flash.  It's not only about accessibility for the
> > disabled, it's about accessibility for people who don't want to run
> > non-free software.
> 
> Well, Flash is only going to increase as it's perfect for creating interfaces to
> the backend server side technology. If you disable Flash in the future, you're
> going to eliminate some pretty important website functionality, on some
> big websites.
> 
> BTW Flash technology is OPEN Source, it's NOT proprietary. Too much is said
> that's not accurate regarding Flash.

There is another issue that I can see with flash (and please correct
me if I'm not accurate :-) ) which is the monolithic, binary nature of
the files - in fact this leads to two issues:

Take for example the website http://www.ultimaterally.com .
The main page is a flash file http://www.ultimaterally.com/swf/home.swf
which contains lots of bullshit animation and a few navigation links.
Extracting the few bytes of useful data (the navigation links'
targets) requires the downloading of 397,387 bytes; with an HTML page
one would only download the HTML, as images and animations and sounds
would be separate files whose downloading can be either blocked or
avoided.

The flash file then requires processing by software capable
of decoding its format - ie. specialised, you can't just hack
something together using grep and sed.

The bandwidth issue is a pain for dialup users and for broadband
users with a metered connection, especially if the metering involves
capping.

The opacity issue is a pain for anyone trying to do any processing on
the flash content, such as URL extraction or advert blocking.

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Pigeon]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 08:19:27AM -0400, S.D.A. wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:43:07 -0400, Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Well, the most obvious is flashblock.
> > 
> > I don't think that's what Pigeon had in mind, useful though it is.
> > I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
> > URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> > example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no
> > non-flash links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site
> > is useless.
> 
> Actually NOT so -- I would think these kind of Flash sites are in the minority,
> at least in 2004.

They are, at least among the kind of sites I tend to visit (mainly
technical ones). But they do exist, and they are a nuisance, and a
plugin as described above would be very useful.

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[S.D.A.]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 12:54:39PM -0700 or thereabouts, Paul Johnson wrote:
> <#secure method=pgp mode=sign>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> "S.D.A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > BTW Flash technology is OPEN Source, it's NOT proprietary. Too much is said
> > that's not accurate regarding Flash.
> 
> You're going to have to back that up.  Last I checked, Macromedia held
> all the strings to Flash, the open source plugins being a
> reverse-engineering trick.

Paul, that's what the http://www.openswf.org/ website is all about. Macromedia
released the source to Flash 6. There is no need to reverse engineer. They tend
to keep the current version under wraps, however.

See here for the offical press release;



This all started in 1998. Macromedia was smart about it.

-- 
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  Monday Sep 20 2004 04:41:01 PM EDT
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-- Louise Beal


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Paul Johnson]

<#secure method=pgp mode=sign>
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

"S.D.A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> BTW Flash technology is OPEN Source, it's NOT proprietary. Too much is said
> that's not accurate regarding Flash.

You're going to have to back that up.  Last I checked, Macromedia held
all the strings to Flash, the open source plugins being a
reverse-engineering trick.

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[S.D.A.]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 02:39:13PM +0100 or thereabouts, Stephen Tait wrote:
> At 14:09 20/09/2004, you wrote:
> >BTW Flash technology is OPEN Source, it's NOT proprietary. Too much is said
> >that's not accurate regarding Flash.
> 
> I was under the impression that flash is open source in the same way as 
> PDF; the format is open, but the big-time applications (FlashMX, Acrobat) 
> are very heavily closed. The same can be said of Macromedia's flash player, 
> and it's lack of open-sourced-ness and dragging of heels in Macromedia 
> means it's slow and perpetually out of date.

Out of date? They seem to be producing updates rather frequently these days...

There are a plethora of fine applications, that are equally as good as
Macromedia's FlashMX 2004 Standard.

See;



and for a list of Flash projects in development in the OSS community;

http://sourceforge.net/search/

Enter 'swf' as the query string and one will get over 3 pages of Flash
Applications.

> Are there any open source drop-in replacements for the flash player?

I didn't do an exhaustive search but here's one;




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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Stephen Tait]

At 14:09 20/09/2004, you wrote:
BTW Flash technology is OPEN Source, it's NOT proprietary. Too much is said
that's not accurate regarding Flash.
I was under the impression that flash is open source in the same way as 
PDF; the format is open, but the big-time applications (FlashMX, Acrobat) 
are very heavily closed. The same can be said of Macromedia's flash player, 
and it's lack of open-sourced-ness and dragging of heels in Macromedia 
means it's slow and perpetually out of date.

Are there any open source drop-in replacements for the flash player? 

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Frank Gevaerts]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 08:19:27AM -0400, S.D.A. wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:43:07 -0400, Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Well, the most obvious is flashblock.
> > 
> > I don't think that's what Pigeon had in mind, useful though it is.
> > I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
> > URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> > example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no
> > non-flash links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site
> > is useless.
> 
> Actually NOT so -- I would think these kind of Flash sites are in the minority,
> at least in 2004.
> 
> Most of you are appear to be behind recent Flash technology which provides
> developers with the ability to make their Flash available to people with
> Disabilities. Of course the official Flash product provides this feature, often
> 3rd party Flash applications don't provide any mechansim to make Flash
> accessible.

Thank you for sending me a flash plugin supporting accessibility
features for powerpc or hppa.

Frank



-- 
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Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[S.D.A.]

On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 08:54:09AM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:19:27 -0400, S.D.A. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> > > I don't think that's what Pigeon had in mind, useful though it is.
> > > I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
> > > URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> > > example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no
> > > non-flash links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site
> > > is useless.
> > 
> > Actually NOT so -- I would think these kind of Flash sites are in the minority,
> > at least in 2004.
> 
> I never said they were in the majority.  "Many" isn't "most".

I dispute many as well. There are many sites using Flash technology that don't
have Flash splash pages. Most of the Internet news sites use Flash for Ad
signage.

> > Most of you are appear to be behind recent Flash technology which provides
> > developers with the ability to make their Flash available to people with
> > Disabilities. Of course the official Flash product provides this feature, often
> > 3rd party Flash applications don't provide any mechansim to make Flash
> > accessible.
> 
> That's true -- I wasn't aware of that.  However, that doesn't address
> the issue that some people don't run Flash for one reason or another. 
> Most of us have surrendered to Javascript, but that doesn't mean we
> have to surrender to Flash.  It's not only about accessibility for the
> disabled, it's about accessibility for people who don't want to run
> non-free software.

Well, Flash is only going to increase as it's perfect for creating interfaces to
the backend server side technology. If you disable Flash in the future, you're
going to eliminate some pretty important website functionality, on some
big websites.

BTW Flash technology is OPEN Source, it's NOT proprietary. Too much is said
that's not accurate regarding Flash.

> > Additonally many Flash developers don't make the obscene splash pages that we
> > all hate. Things have moved on, and improved. Not all Flash developers are
> > morons. ;)
> 
> Of course.  There are sites, however (I've seen at least one recently,
> though I can't remember what it was) that format *all* of their pages
> (at least the ones available from their main entry page) entirely in
> Flash.

Well that's a mistake, at least at present (This will change though). It's a
perfect medium for making sites that translate well to Hand helds (PDAs).

I've seen a nice little Flash application that replaces PHPMyAdmin, in terms of
functionality and speed. This is the kind of Flash enabled application, that
developers are creating these days.

-- 
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+
  Monday Sep 20 2004 09:01:01 AM EDT
+
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in than some that do.
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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Michael Marsh]

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:19:27 -0400, S.D.A. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> > I don't think that's what Pigeon had in mind, useful though it is.
> > I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
> > URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> > example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no
> > non-flash links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site
> > is useless.
> 
> Actually NOT so -- I would think these kind of Flash sites are in the minority,
> at least in 2004.

I never said they were in the majority.  "Many" isn't "most".

> Most of you are appear to be behind recent Flash technology which provides
> developers with the ability to make their Flash available to people with
> Disabilities. Of course the official Flash product provides this feature, often
> 3rd party Flash applications don't provide any mechansim to make Flash
> accessible.

That's true -- I wasn't aware of that.  However, that doesn't address
the issue that some people don't run Flash for one reason or another. 
Most of us have surrendered to Javascript, but that doesn't mean we
have to surrender to Flash.  It's not only about accessibility for the
disabled, it's about accessibility for people who don't want to run
non-free software.

> Additonally many Flash developers don't make the obscene splash pages that we
> all hate. Things have moved on, and improved. Not all Flash developers are
> morons. ;)

Of course.  There are sites, however (I've seen at least one recently,
though I can't remember what it was) that format *all* of their pages
(at least the ones available from their main entry page) entirely in
Flash.

-- 
Michael A. Marsh
http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~mmarsh


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[S.D.A.]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400 or thereabouts, Michael Marsh wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:43:07 -0400, Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Well, the most obvious is flashblock.
> 
> I don't think that's what Pigeon had in mind, useful though it is.
> I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
> URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no
> non-flash links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site
> is useless.

Actually NOT so -- I would think these kind of Flash sites are in the minority,
at least in 2004.

Most of you are appear to be behind recent Flash technology which provides
developers with the ability to make their Flash available to people with
Disabilities. Of course the official Flash product provides this feature, often
3rd party Flash applications don't provide any mechansim to make Flash
accessible.

Additonally many Flash developers don't make the obscene splash pages that we
all hate. Things have moved on, and improved. Not all Flash developers are
morons. ;)

For accessibility reference in Flash see;




-- 
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  Monday Sep 20 2004 08:16:01 AM EDT
+
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the world that just don't add up.


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Pigeon]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 08:18:01PM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400, Michael Marsh wrote:
> ...
> 
> > I think what he(?) 

(yes) :-)

> > meant was something that extracts the navigation
> > URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> > example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no non-flash
> > links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site is
> > useless.

Precisely, very well put.

> Oh.  If that's so, I completely misunderstood, sorry.

Not to worry... FWIW I thought you had understood, and that flashblock
did provide that functionality but didn't explicitly mention it in the
brief description in the mozilla extensions list. I won't worry about
it not working now :-)

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Pigeon]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 06:43:07PM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:09:29PM +0100, Pigeon wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:58:59PM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> 
> > > Well, there's a Mozilla extension that does that, anyway.
> > 
> > What's it called? I was googling for such a thing a few days ago
> > without any luck, and I've looked through the "official" mozilla
> > extensions page and there is nothing matching that description (not to
> > mention a few things that look possible but don't work!)
> 
> Well, the most obvious is flashblock.

That was one of the things that look possible but don't work...

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Carl Fink]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:54:13PM -0400, Michael Marsh wrote:
...

> I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
> URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
> example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no non-flash
> links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site is
> useless.

Oh.  If that's so, I completely misunderstood, sorry.
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Michael Marsh]

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:43:07 -0400, Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, the most obvious is flashblock.

I don't think that's what Pigeon had in mind, useful though it is.
I think what he(?) meant was something that extracts the navigation
URLs within a flash animation so that the site is navigable.  For
example, many sites have a flash-based homepage with no
non-flash links presented, so if you're not running flash, the site
is useless.

-- 
Michael A. Marsh
http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~mmarsh


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Carl Fink]

On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:09:29PM +0100, Pigeon wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:58:59PM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:

> > Well, there's a Mozilla extension that does that, anyway.
> 
> What's it called? I was googling for such a thing a few days ago
> without any luck, and I've looked through the "official" mozilla
> extensions page and there is nothing matching that description (not to
> mention a few things that look possible but don't work!)

Well, the most obvious is flashblock.
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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Pigeon]

On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:58:59PM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:47:00PM -0400, Travis Crump wrote:
> > Pigeon wrote:
> 
> > >It would be useful if there was a flash plugin that did nothing but
> > >extract URLs and present them in clickable form, so you could still
> > >navigate web sites that have the above problem but are spared all the
> > >multimedia garbage.
> > 
> > There is...
> 
> Well, there's a Mozilla extension that does that, anyway.

What's it called? I was googling for such a thing a few days ago
without any luck, and I've looked through the "official" mozilla
extensions page and there is nothing matching that description (not to
mention a few things that look possible but don't work!)

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Carl Fink]

On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 10:47:00PM -0400, Travis Crump wrote:
> Pigeon wrote:

> >It would be useful if there was a flash plugin that did nothing but
> >extract URLs and present them in clickable form, so you could still
> >navigate web sites that have the above problem but are spared all the
> >multimedia garbage.
> 
> There is...

Well, there's a Mozilla extension that does that, anyway.
-- 
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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Travis Crump]

Pigeon wrote:
On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 07:41:32AM -0700, Zachary Rizer wrote:
If you are using flash, I must warn
you to only use it to make movies or games, NEVER for
navigation, as it is not a highly accessible
technology.  Please, stay away from it for web design.

Well said.
It would be useful if there was a flash plugin that did nothing but
extract URLs and present them in clickable form, so you could still
navigate web sites that have the above problem but are spared all the
multimedia garbage.
There is...


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Pigeon]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 07:41:32AM -0700, Zachary Rizer wrote:
> If you are using flash, I must warn
> you to only use it to make movies or games, NEVER for
> navigation, as it is not a highly accessible
> technology.  Please, stay away from it for web design.

Well said.

It would be useful if there was a flash plugin that did nothing but
extract URLs and present them in clickable form, so you could still
navigate web sites that have the above problem but are spared all the
multimedia garbage.

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Hasan]

Check this
http://f4l.sourceforge.net/

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Re: Developing flash on debian

[FireBright, Inc.]

Just to back up Zachary's most excellent point on accessibility, here
is my favorite article on how to create "accessible" flash content:

http://www.webaim.org/techniques/flash/

I think you'll find that Zachary is correct.  Flash is for
advertising, kiosk, and limited web use where accessibility guidelines
can be followed well (such cases are often the narritives, like demos
and tours).

Similarly to Carl's point, you can actually run Flash MX (not MX 2004
to my knowledge) using CrossOver http://www.codeweavers.com/

Best,

Jonathan


On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:46:32 -0400, Carl Fink <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 07:41:32AM -0700, Zachary Rizer wrote:
> 
> > You could also learn MING.  There was also a recent
> > story about a replacement for MING; check slashdot, I
> > don't remember exactly, because I didn't pay much
> > attention to it.  If you are using flash, I must warn
> > you to only use it to make movies or games, NEVER for
> > navigation, as it is not a highly accessible
> > technology.  Please, stay away from it for web design.
> 
> I have heard (no guarantee) that the Australian product SWiSHMax runs
> adequately under WINE.  You can download their trial version and see.
> 
> I develop Flash, for computer-based training.  I have rarely seen a
> web page per se where it was more than an annoyance, but for web
> *applications* it can be useful.
> --
> Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading
> http://www.jabootu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 



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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Carl Fink]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 07:41:32AM -0700, Zachary Rizer wrote:
 
> You could also learn MING.  There was also a recent
> story about a replacement for MING; check slashdot, I
> don't remember exactly, because I didn't pay much
> attention to it.  If you are using flash, I must warn
> you to only use it to make movies or games, NEVER for
> navigation, as it is not a highly accessible
> technology.  Please, stay away from it for web design.

I have heard (no guarantee) that the Australian product SWiSHMax runs
adequately under WINE.  You can download their trial version and see.

I develop Flash, for computer-based training.  I have rarely seen a
web page per se where it was more than an annoyance, but for web
*applications* it can be useful.
-- 
Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading
http://www.jabootu.com


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Zachary Rizer]

--- Andrea Vettorello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:09:27 -0500, Kent West
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Miguel Griffa wrote:
> > 
> > >Hi all
> > >I was wandering how easy is to develop flash
> on debian, are there
> > >any tools? official or not... I'm quite new to
> flash world, and old on
> > >java and c world, but I never had contact with
> flash beyond .swf
> > >before. Thanks for any advice
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > OpenOffice.org (Drawing / Presentation) has the
> ability to export to
> > Flash, but I don't understand exactly what that
> means  :-(
> > 
> 
> You can convert a presentation in a flash file...
> 
> 
> -- 
> Andrea
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
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> 
> 

You could also learn MING.  There was also a recent
story about a replacement for MING; check slashdot, I
don't remember exactly, because I didn't pay much
attention to it.  If you are using flash, I must warn
you to only use it to make movies or games, NEVER for
navigation, as it is not a highly accessible
technology.  Please, stay away from it for web design.

Consider adopting five-year-old web standards to
create clean, accessible designs: alistapart.com is a
good starting point.

~Webnazi.


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Andrea Vettorello]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:09:27 -0500, Kent West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Miguel Griffa wrote:
> 
> >Hi all
> >I was wandering how easy is to develop flash on debian, are there
> >any tools? official or not... I'm quite new to flash world, and old on
> >java and c world, but I never had contact with flash beyond .swf
> >before. Thanks for any advice
> >
> >
> >
> >
> OpenOffice.org (Drawing / Presentation) has the ability to export to
> Flash, but I don't understand exactly what that means  :-(
> 

You can convert a presentation in a flash file...


-- 
Andrea


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Re: Developing flash on debian

[Kent West]

Miguel Griffa wrote:
Hi all
   I was wandering how easy is to develop flash on debian, are there
any tools? official or not... I'm quite new to flash world, and old on
java and c world, but I never had contact with flash beyond .swf
before. Thanks for any advice
 

OpenOffice.org (Drawing / Presentation) has the ability to export to 
Flash, but I don't understand exactly what that means  :-(

--
Kent West
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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