Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-10 Thread pjw 


On Thu, Sep 6, 2018, at 7:44 AM, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
> With https://protonmail.com/ we have webmail with focus on encrypted
> e-mails, but it require your friends also have account there to make full
> use of it.

Since July ProtonMail is now fully interoperable with other PGP mail clients.

You can export your ProtonMail public key to non-ProtonMail contacts, so they 
can send you encrypted mail using their client of choice.  You can import their 
public PGP key, so you can send them encrypted mail.

Once that's done, email encryption can be automatic between the two of you with 
only the one party using ProtonMail.

https://protonmail.com/blog/address-verification-pgp-support/
https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/how-to-use-pgp/

-pjw

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-08 Thread mick crane 

On 2018-09-08 14:15, Martin Smith wrote:

On 07/09/2018 20:54, Dan Purgert wrote:

 wrote:

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 09:53:08AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:47:33PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
Darn. I was already planning to only send encrypted messages to 
this

list :~0

(SCNR)

on'tday endsay encryptedway ailmay otay ublicpay istslay.

:-)

For even more fun, ROT13!
ba'gqnl raqfnl rapelcgrqjnl nvyznl bgnl hoyvpcnl vfgfynl

... although, that kinda looks like I'm trying to summon Cthulhu...


why I thought that was Vogon poetry :)


Is there a prize for the longest thread that I don't know about ?

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-08 Thread Martin Smith 

On 07/09/2018 20:54, Dan Purgert wrote:

 wrote:

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 09:53:08AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:47:33PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

Darn. I was already planning to only send encrypted messages to this
list :~0

(SCNR)

on'tday endsay encryptedway ailmay otay ublicpay istslay.

:-)

For even more fun, ROT13!
ba'gqnl raqfnl rapelcgrqjnl nvyznl bgnl hoyvpcnl vfgfynl

... although, that kinda looks like I'm trying to summon Cthulhu...


why I thought that was Vogon poetry :)


--

Martin

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Friday 07 September 2018 12:20:49 Default User wrote:

> I am not suggesting that this thread be "suppressed", but perhaps it
> should be marked [OT]?
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 11:51 AM John Hasler  
wrote:
> > Gene writes:
> > > As the situation now stands, an encrypted email is a bright red
> > > flag in front of the bull in a china shop, so they will expend a
> > > lot of cpu cycles to read it because if it didn't contain
> > > sensitive data, it wouldn't be encrypted in the first place.
> >
> > While I find the behavior of the intelligence agencies morally
> > repugnant as a practical matter they are not part of my threat
> > model.
> >
> > > The encryption insures that it will be read...
> >
> > It *may* be scanned by software.  A lot more goes into the decision
> > to attempt to decrypt an encrypted message than the mere fact that
> > it is encrypted.  Most likely it results in an addition to a
> > database of IPs known to emit encrypted messages.  It almost
> > certainly won't be read.
> >
> > > ...then a small maybe that it will be delivered to the
> > > addressee.
> >
> > It will already have been delivered.
> >
> > > If its a trigger msg, you can bet it will be printed for later
> > > perusal by a grand jury and the digital copy will be delivered to
> > > /dev/null.
> >
> > It will mark the sender and receiver for investigation.  Why would
> > they tell their enemies that they are reading their mail?

I don't think they should advertise it, but that doesn't prevent them 
from stationing a SWAT team just inside the door to their latest plans, 
with their van parked a block away in front of a bank.

This "cat" has many ways of losing its skin that totally outweigh 
considerations about how they obtained the info that let them meet force 
with even more well trained force. And if there aren't any survivors, 
the secret is still well kept.  At least till the swat team member 
decides to write a tells all book.

> > --
> > John Hasler
> > jhas...@newsguy.com
> > Elmwood, WI USA



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Dan Purgert 
 wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 09:53:08AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:47:33PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> > Darn. I was already planning to only send encrypted messages to this
>> > list :~0
>> > 
>> > (SCNR)
>> 
>> on'tday endsay encryptedway ailmay otay ublicpay istslay.
>
> :-)

For even more fun, ROT13!
ba'gqnl raqfnl rapelcgrqjnl nvyznl bgnl hoyvpcnl vfgfynl

... although, that kinda looks like I'm trying to summon Cthulhu... 

-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Default User 
I am not suggesting that this thread be "suppressed", but perhaps it should
be marked [OT]?


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 11:51 AM John Hasler  wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > As the situation now stands, an encrypted email is a bright red flag
> > in front of the bull in a china shop, so they will expend a lot of cpu
> > cycles to read it because if it didn't contain sensitive data, it
> > wouldn't be encrypted in the first place.
>
> While I find the behavior of the intelligence agencies morally repugnant
> as a practical matter they are not part of my threat model.
>
> > The encryption insures that it will be read...
>
> It *may* be scanned by software.  A lot more goes into the decision to
> attempt to decrypt an encrypted message than the mere fact that it is
> encrypted.  Most likely it results in an addition to a database of IPs
> known to emit encrypted messages.  It almost certainly won't be read.
>
> > ...then a small maybe that it will be delivered to the
> > addressee.
>
> It will already have been delivered.
>
> > If its a trigger msg, you can bet it will be printed for later perusal
> > by a grand jury and the digital copy will be delivered to /dev/null.
>
> It will mark the sender and receiver for investigation.  Why would they
> tell their enemies that they are reading their mail?
> --
> John Hasler
> jhas...@newsguy.com
> Elmwood, WI USA
>
>

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread John Hasler 
Gene writes:
> As the situation now stands, an encrypted email is a bright red flag
> in front of the bull in a china shop, so they will expend a lot of cpu
> cycles to read it because if it didn't contain sensitive data, it
> wouldn't be encrypted in the first place.

While I find the behavior of the intelligence agencies morally repugnant
as a practical matter they are not part of my threat model.

> The encryption insures that it will be read...

It *may* be scanned by software.  A lot more goes into the decision to
attempt to decrypt an encrypted message than the mere fact that it is
encrypted.  Most likely it results in an addition to a database of IPs
known to emit encrypted messages.  It almost certainly won't be read.

> ...then a small maybe that it will be delivered to the 
> addressee.

It will already have been delivered.  

> If its a trigger msg, you can bet it will be printed for later perusal
> by a grand jury and the digital copy will be delivered to /dev/null.

It will mark the sender and receiver for investigation.  Why would they
tell their enemies that they are reading their mail?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Friday 07 September 2018 11:07:01 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:59:01PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Problem is many friends use public free e-mail solutions, without
> > OpenPGP, and they also not give a damn about security.
>
> We had a related thread here about "good" mail providers. I've had
> success convincing friends that a "good" mail provider costs (a
> modest) something, like half a $beverage [1] a month, to be able
> to treat you as a customer and not as cattle or vegetable.
>
> > I also have many friends that use Facebook as some sort of diary.
>
> Yeah, that's unfortunate. After explaining to people how that
> horrible Cambridge Analytica affair went, some take their distance
> with FB. I count each case as a personal success.
>
> But this is something which only works face-to-face, personally,
> and among friends.
>
> > In general IT people should be better to learn non-IT people about
> > better security.
> >
> > Interesting to read feedback on this subject here.
>
> Over here we have what we call "crypto parties", where interested
> people can learn how to set up encryption and/or exchange public
> keys.
>
> My take on it: nothing beats personal contact. Nothing.
>
> Cheers
> -- t
+10 Tomas.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Friday 07 September 2018 09:18:59 Dave Sherohman wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 03:44:22PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
> > We have smartphones with software from Apple and Google, but we are
> > unsure if they look in our data.
>
> Don't be silly.  Of course they do.
>
> > But it is still very common to send unencrypted e-mails, open post
> > cards. So why not use OpenPGP to encrypt e-mails, it is free, I am
> > trying to find out how to?
>
> Can't speak for anyone else, but...
>
> I don't give a damn.
>
> I'm sending this message to a public email list that anyone can
> subscribe to, and I know that it's archived in many, many places,
> several of which can be browsed by the general public.  It is not
> private, by design, so why would I bother with encrypting it in
> transit?
>
> If I were transmitting information that I actually wanted to keep
> secret, I wouldn't put it in the body of an email at all.
>
> The current push for enhanced privacy is all well and good, but the
> crusaders often forget that there's a lot of information out there
> which is intended to be public or which people simply don't care if it
> becomes public.  There is absolutely no need to encrypt such
> information, therefore "encrypt everything" is not the moral
> imperative they make it out to be.

Part of that is that if it all becomes encrypted, then the TLA's will 
spend so much time decrypting our emails containing this drivel at worst 
that the may give up. IOW, it makes a statement they can see in the 
power bill and hours effort to read all of it in hopes they'll find a 
clue.  The TLA's occasionally surprise me, but generally you could tape 
the clue to their butt and they couldn't find it with both hands.

As the situation now stands, an encrypted email is a bright red flag in 
front of the bull in a china shop, so they will expend a lot of cpu 
cycles to read it because if it didn't contain sensitive data, it 
wouldn't be encrypted in the first place. The encryption insures that it 
will be read, then a small maybe that it will be delivered to the 
addressee. If its a trigger msg, you can bet it will be printed for 
later perusal by a grand jury and the digital copy will be delivered 
to /dev/null.


> (There's an argument to be made for using cryptographic signatures to
> validate the authenticity and integrity of messages, but that doesn't
> require encrypting the actual content itself.)



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread tomas 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:59:01PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:

[...]

> Problem is many friends use public free e-mail solutions, without OpenPGP,
> and they also not give a damn about security.

We had a related thread here about "good" mail providers. I've had
success convincing friends that a "good" mail provider costs (a
modest) something, like half a $beverage [1] a month, to be able
to treat you as a customer and not as cattle or vegetable.

> I also have many friends that use Facebook as some sort of diary.

Yeah, that's unfortunate. After explaining to people how that
horrible Cambridge Analytica affair went, some take their distance
with FB. I count each case as a personal success.

But this is something which only works face-to-face, personally,
and among friends.

> In general IT people should be better to learn non-IT people about better
> security.
> 
> Interesting to read feedback on this subject here.

Over here we have what we call "crypto parties", where interested
people can learn how to set up encryption and/or exchange public
keys.

My take on it: nothing beats personal contact. Nothing.

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread John Hasler 
Torben writes:
> Problem is many friends use public free e-mail solutions, without
> OpenPGP, and they also not give a damn about security.

Worse, they do so in the apparent belief that they do have secrecy and
become enraged and indignant when they find out that they don't. But
then they just keep right on doing it.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread tomas 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 09:53:08AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:47:33PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Darn. I was already planning to only send encrypted messages to this
> > list :~0
> > 
> > (SCNR)
> 
> on'tday endsay encryptedway ailmay otay ublicpay istslay.

:-)
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Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Torben Schou Jensen 
> Dave Sherohman wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 03:44:22PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
>>> So why not use OpenPGP to encrypt e-mails, it is free, I am trying to
>>> find out how to?
>> Can't speak for anyone else, but...
>> I don't give a damn.
>> I'm sending this message to a public email list that anyone can
>> subscribe to, and I know that it's archived in many, many places,
>> several of which can be browsed by the general public.  It is not
>> private, by design, so why would I bother with encrypting it in transit?

Same here, I have no problems with certain public e-mails, like what we
write here on mailing lists, anyone can read this, and no secret info
within this.

In case I would like to share secret info with a friend I could also use
my phone to call and give this info.

But in case I need to write some private details to a friend, and be sure
no one would read this on way, it require my friend have e-mail address
and also use OpenPGP.

Problem is many friends use public free e-mail solutions, without OpenPGP,
and they also not give a damn about security.

I also have many friends that use Facebook as some sort of diary.

In general IT people should be better to learn non-IT people about better
security.

Interesting to read feedback on this subject here.

Have a good weekend...

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Greg Wooledge 
On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 03:47:33PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Darn. I was already planning to only send encrypted messages to this
> list :~0
> 
> (SCNR)

on'tday endsay encryptedway ailmay otay ublicpay istslay.

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread tomas 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Sep 07, 2018 at 01:36:31PM -, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Dave Sherohman wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 03:44:22PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
> >> So why not use OpenPGP to encrypt e-mails, it is free, I am trying to
> >> find out how to?
> >
> > Can't speak for anyone else, but...
> >
> > I don't give a damn.
> >
> > I'm sending this message to a public email list that anyone can
> > subscribe to, and I know that it's archived in many, many places,
> > several of which can be browsed by the general public.  It is not
> > private, by design, so why would I bother with encrypting it in transit?
> 
> I believe that Torben's speaking about personal email, e.g. between you
> And your mom, rather than those messages that you fully intend to be of
> a public nature.

Darn. I was already planning to only send encrypted messages to this
list :~0

(SCNR)
- -- t
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Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Dan Purgert 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Dave Sherohman wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 03:44:22PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
>> So why not use OpenPGP to encrypt e-mails, it is free, I am trying to
>> find out how to?
>
> Can't speak for anyone else, but...
>
> I don't give a damn.
>
> I'm sending this message to a public email list that anyone can
> subscribe to, and I know that it's archived in many, many places,
> several of which can be browsed by the general public.  It is not
> private, by design, so why would I bother with encrypting it in transit?

I believe that Torben's speaking about personal email, e.g. between you
And your mom, rather than those messages that you fully intend to be of
a public nature.

> (There's an argument to be made for using cryptographic signatures to
> validate the authenticity and integrity of messages, but that doesn't
> require encrypting the actual content itself.)

Indeed not, such as on this message :)


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-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-07 Thread Dave Sherohman 
On Thu, Sep 06, 2018 at 03:44:22PM +0200, Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
> We have smartphones with software from Apple and Google, but we are unsure
> if they look in our data.

Don't be silly.  Of course they do.

> But it is still very common to send unencrypted e-mails, open post cards.
> So why not use OpenPGP to encrypt e-mails, it is free, I am trying to find
> out how to?

Can't speak for anyone else, but...

I don't give a damn.

I'm sending this message to a public email list that anyone can
subscribe to, and I know that it's archived in many, many places,
several of which can be browsed by the general public.  It is not
private, by design, so why would I bother with encrypting it in transit?

If I were transmitting information that I actually wanted to keep
secret, I wouldn't put it in the body of an email at all.

The current push for enhanced privacy is all well and good, but the
crusaders often forget that there's a lot of information out there which
is intended to be public or which people simply don't care if it becomes
public.  There is absolutely no need to encrypt such information,
therefore "encrypt everything" is not the moral imperative they make it
out to be.

(There's an argument to be made for using cryptographic signatures to
validate the authenticity and integrity of messages, but that doesn't
require encrypting the actual content itself.)

-- 
Dave Sherohman

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-06 Thread John Hasler 
Torben Schou Jensen writes:
> A week ago I got mail from google, that they now automatic add
> appointments from my google e-mail to my google calendar.  I had then
> received copy of a hotel reservation from a friend, and suddenly
> google added this as my hotel reservation.  So google in fact monitor
> my e-mails...

Did you think Gmail was a charity?  It costs them *money*.  They offer it
free in order to add value to their advertising services, which are their
main business.  Of course they mine Gmail for data.

"Security" can mean protection against fraud: keeping malware off your
computer, preventing your passwords from being broken.  It can also mean
secrecy: preventing anyone other than the intended recipient from
reading your messages.  Most people aren't saying anything that they
can't bear to have Google's software scan.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Encrypted e-mails?

2018-09-06 Thread Dan Purgert 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Torben Schou Jensen wrote:
> [...]
> But it is still very common to send unencrypted e-mails, open post cards.
> So why not use OpenPGP to encrypt e-mails, it is free, I am trying to find
> out how to?

Thunderbird, plus enigmail (plus gpg, obviously ;) ).

> With OpenPGP you create a personal keypair, a secret and public key.
> You send public key to friends, and they can encrypt e-mails to you, but
> only you can open with secret key.

Precisely.
 
> My primary e-mail is based on webmail with SquirrelMail on own private web
> server.
> A plugin named G/PGP Encryption is available, but not updated since 2007.
> Written in PHP, interfacing with GnuPG, I found that it not work on Debian
> Stable Linux and PHP 7.0.
>
> But after hunting bugs, I have been able to fix it to send encrypted
> e-mails between users within my server, not perfect, but working.
> Now thinking about coding a new plugin.

Issue was probably mainly centered around assumptions of GPG 1.x, huh?
Good deal that you got it working :)

>
> In case I get it working, then I need friends outside my server to use
> OpenPGP also.

Or at least PGP/GPG compliant software of their chosing.

> To my knowledge it is not available very many places.
> You normally get free e-mail without encryption, without encryption easier
> for microsoft or google to look in your e-mails.
>
> A week ago I got mail from google, that they now automatic add
> appointments from my google e-mail to my google calendar.
> I had then received copy of a hotel reservation from a friend, and
> suddenly google added this as my hotel reservation.
> So google in fact monitor my e-mails, scary, but not easy to have Android
> smartphone without google account.

Well, you do kind of allow it by virtue of using their service.  I mean,
sure it's a message "destined(tm)" for you, but it's on *their* servers.
Same kind of "invasion of privacy(tm)" happens in most office
environments -- all the emails that you send/receive are subject to
being read by your IT department if required.

>
> With https://protonmail.com/ we have webmail with focus on encrypted
> e-mails, but it require your friends also have account there to make full
> use of it.

Meh, never bothered with their service, pgp is easy enough; even through
google, etc.

>
> We try to be secure on Internet, but still not easy to use secure
> e-mails???

Mostly because people don't care.  They see "mail" in the name, and
think it's exactly like reglar mail and no one but the intended
recipient is allowed to look at it.



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-- 
|_|O|_| Registered Linux user #585947
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5  4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281