Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Emanoil Kotsev]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> does it apply on CF cards? The name says flash, so I would assume yes?
>> But still, I think it really reasonable to consider the life of the
>> media.
> 
> Yes, same thing.  BTW, regarding the life of the media: let's say the
> internal maximum write speed is 50MB/s, an expected lifetime of
> 10-writes, and a capacity of 30GB, that gives you a "minimum time to
> write failure" of 2 years (30GB * 10 / 50MB/s).  I.e. it will take
> about 2 years of continuous write operation before the flash will fail
> because of excessive writes.  As I said: I wouldn't worry about it.
> 
> 
> Stefan

thanks


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Johan Kullstam]

"Masatran / Deepak, R."  writes:

> Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
> one Ext3 partition. The problem is that when I transfer files from my laptop
> to my work computer, the UIDs on the Ext3 partition are used for the
> permissions, so I am not able to access the data. How can I fix this?
>
> Both computers run Debian Lenny. The laptop runs Sawfish while the work
> computer runs Gnome. I manually mount the flash drive in Sawfish, and I have
> a FSTAB entry to allow this without Sudo. Gnome does an automatic mount. I
> don't have superuser privilege on the work computer.
>
> I am willing to use non-Ext3 filesystems, I just want RWX-RWX-RWX-style file
> permissions.

I use tar.  Leave the format in FAT.  Make tar file (with compression
usually).  Copy tar file to USB drive.  The tar file will contain
permissions.

You might even be able to use tar straight to the flash drive like
  tar cvf /dev/sda files...
I used floppies like that.  But that gives you only one archive per
USB.

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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Stefan Monnier]

> does it apply on CF cards? The name says flash, so I would assume yes? But
> still, I think it really reasonable to consider the life of the media.

Yes, same thing.  BTW, regarding the life of the media: let's say the
internal maximum write speed is 50MB/s, an expected lifetime of
10-writes, and a capacity of 30GB, that gives you a "minimum time to
write failure" of 2 years (30GB * 10 / 50MB/s).  I.e. it will take
about 2 years of continuous write operation before the flash will fail
because of excessive writes.  As I said: I wouldn't worry about it.


Stefan


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Emanoil Kotsev]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

>>> Why ext2 rather than ext3?
>> I think you trimmed that line a bit prematurely in that it went on to
>> say "flash drive".  ext2 is arguably better than ext3 for flash drives
>> because of the reduced number of writes to disk.
> 
> The extra writes of ext3 have 2 consequences:
> 1 - slow things down
> 2 - wear out the media
> 
> Only point 2 is specific to flash, and it only matters if it will cause
> the media to die sooner.  With current flash media, obsolescence will
> come much sooner than death, so ext3 is just as suited for flash as it
> is for magnetic media.
>  
> 
> Stefan


Very interesting story!

does it apply on CF cards? The name says flash, so I would assume yes? But
still, I think it really reasonable to consider the life of the media.

regards


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Mike McClain]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 07:15:33AM +, Bob Cox wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 22:14:59 -0700, Mike McClain (mike.j...@nethere.com) 
> wrote: 
> > Which versions of Windows can read ext2?
> 
> Windows 95/98/2000/XP/NT definitely.  Not sure about Vista.
> 
> Google for explore2fs.
> 

Found it, DL'd it.

Thank you very much, 
Mike


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Adrian Levi]

2009/3/12 Bob Cox :
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 22:14:59 -0700, Mike McClain (mike.j...@nethere.com) 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:38:35PM +0100, Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote:
>> > Masatran / Deepak, R. wrote:
>> > >Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
>> > >one Ext3 partition. The problem is that when I transfer files from my
>> 
>> > Why so many difficult answers?
>> > If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your
>> > flash drive.
>> >
>> > Even Windows supports it.
>> >
>>
>> I did not know that.
>> Which versions of Windows can read ext2?
>
> Windows 95/98/2000/XP/NT definitely.  Not sure about Vista.
>
> Google for explore2fs.

Or ext2ifs
Installable file system.

Adrian

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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Why ext2 rather than ext3?
> I think you trimmed that line a bit prematurely in that it went on to
> say "flash drive".  ext2 is arguably better than ext3 for flash drives
> because of the reduced number of writes to disk.

The extra writes of ext3 have 2 consequences:
1 - slow things down
2 - wear out the media

Only point 2 is specific to flash, and it only matters if it will cause
the media to die sooner.  With current flash media, obsolescence will
come much sooner than death, so ext3 is just as suited for flash as it
is for magnetic media.
 

Stefan


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Bob Cox]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 10:04:27 -0400, Stefan Monnier 
(monn...@iro.umontreal.ca) wrote: 

> >> > Why so many difficult answers?
> >> > If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your 
> 
> Why ext2 rather than ext3?

I think you trimmed that line a bit prematurely in that it went on to
say "flash drive".  ext2 is arguably better than ext3 for flash drives
because of the reduced number of writes to disk.
 
> > Google for explore2fs.
> 
> It claims to support both ext2 and ext3.

It does support both.  (Because from a read-only point of view they are
the same?)

-- 
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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Stefan Monnier]

>> > Why so many difficult answers?
>> > If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your 

Why ext2 rather than ext3?

> Google for explore2fs.

It claims to support both ext2 and ext3.


Stefan


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Mark Allums]

Mike McClain wrote:

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:38:35PM +0100, Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote:

Masatran / Deepak, R. wrote:

Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
one Ext3 partition. The problem is that when I transfer files from my 



Why so many difficult answers?
If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your 
flash drive.


Even Windows supports it.



I did not know that. 
Which versions of Windows can read ext2?


TIA,
Mike




Any version, 95+, just requires a driver.  Not official.  3rd party.

MArk Allums


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Bob Cox]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 22:14:59 -0700, Mike McClain (mike.j...@nethere.com) 
wrote: 

> On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:38:35PM +0100, Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote:
> > Masatran / Deepak, R. wrote:
> > >Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
> > >one Ext3 partition. The problem is that when I transfer files from my 
> 
> > Why so many difficult answers?
> > If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your 
> > flash drive.
> > 
> > Even Windows supports it.
> > 
> 
> I did not know that. 
> Which versions of Windows can read ext2?

Windows 95/98/2000/XP/NT definitely.  Not sure about Vista.

Google for explore2fs.

-- 
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Please reply to the list only.  Do NOT send copies directly to me.
Debian on the NSLU2: http://bobcox.com/slug/


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Mike McClain]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:38:35PM +0100, Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote:
> Masatran / Deepak, R. wrote:
> >Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
> >one Ext3 partition. The problem is that when I transfer files from my 

> Why so many difficult answers?
> If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your 
> flash drive.
> 
> Even Windows supports it.
> 

I did not know that. 
Which versions of Windows can read ext2?

TIA,
Mike


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Mark Allums]

Sam Leon wrote:

Mark Allums wrote:

Benjamin M. A'Lee wrote:

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:23:43PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:

Masatran / Deepak, R.:
Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 
partition, and

one Ext3 partition.

Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.


And FAT32 is better?




Let's us all start a movement, an exFat on Linux movement.   exFat is 
a relatively new FS that is designed specifically for removable 
drives. It is superficially an "extended FAT", while the underlying 
bits are new.  MS has added it to Vista with SP1, and to XP with a 
hotfix.


Everyone should hope someone competent takes the time to port it to 
Linux, with full write capability.  It is exactly what OP needs.


In the meantime, for removable drives 32G and under, one should 
probably stick to FAT32/vfat.


Mark Allums


I disagree.  Linux already has jffs2 for embedded flash applications. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFFS2


However flash drives have their own controller:

Removable flash memory cards and USB flash drives have built-in 
controllers to perform wear-levelling and error correction so use of a 
specific flash file system does not add any benefit.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_flash#Flash_file_systems

Sam



Sorry, I got threads confused, I did not mean to hijack. I was thinking 
of something else.


I stick by my remarks, in context.  ExFat is a very appropriate FS for 
removable drives.  Flash is not particularly relevant.


Mark Allums


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:19:09AM -0500, Mark Allums wrote:

> Let's us all start a movement, an exFat on Linux movement.   

exFAT is written by a known patent troll who is already suing a Linux
company for a patent that may or may not be valid.

I'd stay away from exFAT.

http://lwn.net/Articles/321432/ (currently requires LWN subscription)
http://lwn.net/Articles/320737/

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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Jens Van Broeckhoven]

Masatran / Deepak, R. wrote:

Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
one Ext3 partition. The problem is that when I transfer files from my laptop
to my work computer, the UIDs on the Ext3 partition are used for the
permissions, so I am not able to access the data. How can I fix this?

Both computers run Debian Lenny. The laptop runs Sawfish while the work
computer runs Gnome. I manually mount the flash drive in Sawfish, and I have
a FSTAB entry to allow this without Sudo. Gnome does an automatic mount. I
don't have superuser privilege on the work computer.

I am willing to use non-Ext3 filesystems, I just want RWX-RWX-RWX-style file
permissions.

  

Why so many difficult answers?
If you normally use ext3, use ext2(ext3 without journalizing) on your 
flash drive.


Even Windows supports it.


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`. `'   Free Software Foundation  http://www.fsf.org/

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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
>> one Ext3 partition.
> Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
> drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.

ext3 is not significantly different in this respect from most other FSes
(including FAT) to be a deciding factor, usually.


Stefan


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Mark Allums]

Sam Leon wrote:

Mark Allums wrote:

Benjamin M. A'Lee wrote:

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:23:43PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:

Masatran / Deepak, R.:
Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 
partition, and

one Ext3 partition.

Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.


And FAT32 is better?




Let's us all start a movement, an exFat on Linux movement.   exFat is 
a relatively new FS that is designed specifically for removable 
drives. It is superficially an "extended FAT", while the underlying 
bits are new.  MS has added it to Vista with SP1, and to XP with a 
hotfix.


Everyone should hope someone competent takes the time to port it to 
Linux, with full write capability.  It is exactly what OP needs.


In the meantime, for removable drives 32G and under, one should 
probably stick to FAT32/vfat.


Mark Allums


I disagree.  Linux already has jffs2 for embedded flash applications. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFFS2


However flash drives have their own controller:

Removable flash memory cards and USB flash drives have built-in 
controllers to perform wear-levelling and error correction so use of a 
specific flash file system does not add any benefit.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_flash#Flash_file_systems

Sam




I think you have missed my point.  exFat has advantages that have 
nothing to do with wear-leveling, etc.  exFat is not a flash file 
system, is is a file system, period.  It addresses some of the problems 
and limitation of FAT, and doesn't suffer as badly when removed without 
unmounting.  It is intended for *removable* storage, not necessarily flash.


MArk Allums





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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Sam Leon]

Mark Allums wrote:

Benjamin M. A'Lee wrote:

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:23:43PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:

Masatran / Deepak, R.:
Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 
partition, and

one Ext3 partition.

Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.


And FAT32 is better?




Let's us all start a movement, an exFat on Linux movement.   exFat is a 
relatively new FS that is designed specifically for removable drives. It 
is superficially an "extended FAT", while the underlying bits are new.  
MS has added it to Vista with SP1, and to XP with a hotfix.


Everyone should hope someone competent takes the time to port it to 
Linux, with full write capability.  It is exactly what OP needs.


In the meantime, for removable drives 32G and under, one should probably 
stick to FAT32/vfat.


Mark Allums


I disagree.  Linux already has jffs2 for embedded flash applications. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFFS2


However flash drives have their own controller:

Removable flash memory cards and USB flash drives have built-in 
controllers to perform wear-levelling and error correction so use of a 
specific flash file system does not add any benefit.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_flash#Flash_file_systems

Sam


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Mark Allums]

Benjamin M. A'Lee wrote:

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:23:43PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:

Masatran / Deepak, R.:

Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
one Ext3 partition.

Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.


And FAT32 is better?




Let's us all start a movement, an exFat on Linux movement.   exFat is a 
relatively new FS that is designed specifically for removable drives. 
It is superficially an "extended FAT", while the underlying bits are 
new.  MS has added it to Vista with SP1, and to XP with a hotfix.


Everyone should hope someone competent takes the time to port it to 
Linux, with full write capability.  It is exactly what OP needs.


In the meantime, for removable drives 32G and under, one should probably 
stick to FAT32/vfat.


Mark Allums


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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Benjamin M. A'Lee]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:23:43PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:
> Masatran / Deepak, R.:
> >
> > Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
> > one Ext3 partition.
> 
> Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
> drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.

And FAT32 is better?

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Re: Ext3 for flash drive

[Jochen Schulz]

Masatran / Deepak, R.:
>
> Recently, I re-partitioned my flash drive. I made one FAT32 partition, and
> one Ext3 partition.

Is ext3 on a flash medium really a good idea? At least cheap flash
drives probably don't have smart wear levelling.

> The problem is that when I transfer files from my laptop
> to my work computer, the UIDs on the Ext3 partition are used for the
> permissions, so I am not able to access the data. How can I fix this?

You can't unless the UIDs on both systems are equal. As far as I know,
all filesystems with UNIX-style permissions only store UIDs, not
usernames.

J.
-- 
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up leading the hypnotised.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


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