Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
bob parker wrote: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:18, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:06:23AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: Or the poster doesn't know much about Java. Having used Java, I'd say that Java isn't good for small programs/quick hacks. And what I've seen of the larger stuff in Java, it's horrably slow and unreliable. So if it's too elephantine for little stuff and two slow and warped for the big stuff, just what the heck is Java good for again? Seems to be a solution looking for a problem. Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Jacob *Like real-time financial market quotes or a chat window. ** Just so I wouldn't get a 'ya, you're not using Java in Lynx. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:42:17PM -0600, Jacob Anawalt wrote: Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Go check out http://brunslo.com/, there's a chatbox on one side. It works well. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/UIHJUzgNqloQMwcRAjcFAJwJw06RS9vNc7USgU7qBdTJwjwEBQCfeMey aNNhSpMfm4mx6AnBIRXVvaw= =M9Yd -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:42:17PM -0600, Jacob Anawalt wrote: [...] } Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other } option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication } without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other } non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Flash. Not that I'm promoting it, I'm just saying it's an alternative. } Jacob --Greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 07:40:49AM -0400, Gregory Seidman wrote: } Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other } option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication } without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other } non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Flash. Not that I'm promoting it, I'm just saying it's an alternative. Why use flash when there's not much embedded objects and DHTML can't do? - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/ULPWUzgNqloQMwcRArZ2AKDikTyia/2PrNZZcucVR5BLyutHQACgpbNG GWk9Rx+G1eV3wdPLmk/XI0s= =gZlw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Sat, 2003-08-30 at 06:40, Gregory Seidman wrote: On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:42:17PM -0600, Jacob Anawalt wrote: [...] } Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other } option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication } without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other } non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Flash. Not that I'm promoting it, I'm just saying it's an alternative. And a god damned fscking bad one at that! I utterly hate and *loathe* web-sites that have Flash-based advertising. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Millions of Chinese speak Chinese, and it's not hereditary... Dr. Dean Edell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 10:23:24AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: Flash. Not that I'm promoting it, I'm just saying it's an alternative. And a god damned fscking bad one at that! I utterly hate and *loathe* web-sites that have Flash-based advertising. apt-get install squid adzapper - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/UMxyUzgNqloQMwcRAh/WAKC3KRo5EgjUk+ocUp6gsc27+WaxSACguXVw EnDxbMKzGa4RwXj9dGfq1dM= =4fPg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:42:17PM -0600, Jacob Anawalt wrote: Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Go check out http://brunslo.com/, there's a chatbox on one side. It works well. form id=frmchat action=/content.php?node=Big+InfoChat method=post onsubmit=chat.value=textbox.value;textbox.value=''; Um, I must have done something wrong, or maybe you overlooked my 'without reloading the page' requirement. The whole page reloads when I click 'say'. Since the examples of my requirements were snipped, here they are again: *Like real-time financial market quotes or a chat window. ** Just so I wouldn't get a 'ya, you're not using Java in Lynx'. Just to make my question/point clear, a frame is not an acceptable answer - inline or not - to my question. A second window that is reloading and talking via JavaScript could be a solution for some, but not what I'm after (besides the pop-up might be blocked or the user might close that window - ya ya ya and they might have Java disabled). I'm talking about something like a market data quote and news ticker or something similar that doesn't rely on an auto-reload interval. Real-time quotes with people re-connecting to download the whole page (or frameset) every second is not a good idea if you want to scale well. If there's something else besides Java out there that runs on Konqueror and would be sutible (to me, see above) for a market data and news ticker, point me at it. Jacob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
Gregory Seidman wrote: On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:42:17PM -0600, Jacob Anawalt wrote: [...] } Ok, I'm not arguing pro/con Java here, I just have question. What other } option do I have for web browser enabled client/server communication } without reloading the page* that I can use in Koqueror or other } non-mainstream graphical** browsers? Flash. Not that I'm promoting it, I'm just saying it's an alternative. } Jacob --Greg Have Konqueror installed? Been here with it? http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlashP5_Language=English There may be some way to get it in Konqueror, but MM isn't saying how. Shockwave does some nifty stuff and I've played some fun games on 1+ Ghz systems. If you get the latest version on the latest browser. I find it more than frustrating to get you need a newer version of flash to use this site on my older Macs. Installing Java isn't always a piece of cake either, but it hasn't failed me yet. That aside, and despite the fact that I had summarly dismissed flash in my mind when I made the post, I will grudgingly accept it as a solution. Any others? Any that are eligible to be included in the Debian archives (I know this kicks Java out, I'm just saying if the solution passed the requirements to be part of Debian, and was functional, I'd prefer it) Jacob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:06:23AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: Or the poster doesn't know much about Java. Having used Java, I'd say that Java isn't good for small programs/quick hacks. And what I've seen of the larger stuff in Java, it's horrably slow and unreliable. So if it's too elephantine for little stuff and two slow and warped for the big stuff, just what the heck is Java good for again? - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Txp9UzgNqloQMwcRAqiCAKDV90Nf3vUCsPQJDTQziZzvoJ1YRgCfTx5J ZtUX34b58xaqEkiqhcsMFX0= =gySC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 10:47:10AM -0400, David Z Maze wrote: Java is garbage-collected That's not entirely true, or Java would have self-collected before I hit high school. 8:o) - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/Txr3UzgNqloQMwcRAuZxAKCnybHpGPFSBEOr9wQaneJqQ5974gCfaMr9 YI5jXXeRCWt4KBc38f+vws0= =0xdx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 06:01:54PM +0200, Thomas Krennwallner wrote: For me its clear: use the language you think is good for completing a given task. I know you cannot always make this decision but if you have the chance, choose carefully ;-) But if you're considering using Forth (outside of a MUCK), or FORTRAN (at all) you're probably wrong. 8:o) - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/TxtzUzgNqloQMwcRAjaCAJ4g61rUZhwnezqPrRFWCjc/F5fkJwCgx9vw hprTffpfb+z2qQ+6u0C4hOM= =u4e3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Fri, 2003-08-29 at 04:18, Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:06:23AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: Or the poster doesn't know much about Java. Having used Java, I'd say that Java isn't good for small programs/quick hacks. And what I've seen of the larger stuff in Java, it's horrably slow and unreliable. So if it's too elephantine for little stuff and two slow and warped for the big stuff, just what the heck is Java good for again? You can make bad designs and write bad code in any language. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Knowledge should be free for all. Harcourt Fenton Mudd, Star Trek:TOS, I, Mudd -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:08:13AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: And what I've seen of the larger stuff in Java, it's horrably slow and unreliable. So if it's too elephantine for little stuff and two slow and warped for the big stuff, just what the heck is Java good for again? You can make bad designs and write bad code in any language. Right, but a good language makes it somewhat counterintuitive or difficult to code without at least a passable design. I've seen a lot of plain crap out of java developers that makes Microsoft's reliabilty record shine. Granted, they can't test on every environment, but that's one reason why I think java is fundamentally flawed. Meanwhile, I've seen Linux kernels stay up over a year and it's written mostly in C. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/T4VaUzgNqloQMwcRAnsEAKC/g0wnkNDWqIUCa5yHzSB+jbAcswCgltTP qqeMEo00syAnQslEYuS4UsA= =F6l3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:18, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 09:06:23AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: Or the poster doesn't know much about Java. Having used Java, I'd say that Java isn't good for small programs/quick hacks. And what I've seen of the larger stuff in Java, it's horrably slow and unreliable. So if it's too elephantine for little stuff and two slow and warped for the big stuff, just what the heck is Java good for again? Seems to be a solution looking for a problem. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Fri, 2003-08-29 at 11:54, Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:08:13AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: And what I've seen of the larger stuff in Java, it's horrably slow and unreliable. So if it's too elephantine for little stuff and two slow and warped for the big stuff, just what the heck is Java good for again? You can make bad designs and write bad code in any language. Right, but a good language makes it somewhat counterintuitive or difficult to code without at least a passable design. I've seen a lot of plain crap out of java developers that makes Microsoft's reliabilty record shine. Granted, they can't test on every environment, but that's one reason why I think java is fundamentally flawed. Meanwhile, I've seen Linux kernels stay up over a year and it's written mostly in C. I've seen great C and *really* bad C. I've seen awesome COBOL, and really, completely blecherous COBOL code. That blecherous COBOL coding style was taught in University by those who had caught the GOTO is Evil disease, and thus had to make it jump through hoops to do simple things. The great COBOL was written by people who knew that GOTO is your friend, and friends should not be abused. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Basically, I got on the plane with a bomb. Basically, I tried to ignite it. Basically, yeah, I intended to damage the plane. RICHARD REID, tried to blow up American Airlines Flight 63 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Thursday 28 August 2003 11:16, you wrote: There is no such language which performs in all situations well. C is fast, but you have to code really careful and double-check your source. Erlang was designed for telephony tasks (message passing, ...). Prolog is superior in expert systems. Perl is real good for quick string hacks. Python scales better than Perl for larger projects and is good for rapid prototyping. C++ scales well in large-scale software designs which needs to be fast... C, Erlang, Prolog, Perl, Python and C++ are all refered to in the above paragraph. Java is conspicuouly not mentioned. I construe that to mean Java is so much lacking in useful qualities to serve any practical purpose. -- Alphonse Ogulla Nairobi, Kenya -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Thu, 2003-08-28 at 07:14, Alphonse Ogulla wrote: On Thursday 28 August 2003 11:16, you wrote: There is no such language which performs in all situations well. C is fast, but you have to code really careful and double-check your source. Erlang was designed for telephony tasks (message passing, ...). Prolog is superior in expert systems. Perl is real good for quick string hacks. Python scales better than Perl for larger projects and is good for rapid prototyping. C++ scales well in large-scale software designs which needs to be fast... C, Erlang, Prolog, Perl, Python and C++ are all refered to in the above paragraph. Java is conspicuouly not mentioned. I construe that to mean Java is so much lacking in useful qualities to serve any practical purpose. Or the poster doesn't know much about Java. Having used Java, I'd say that Java isn't good for small programs/quick hacks. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA The difference between drunken sailors and Congressmen is that drunken sailors spend their own money. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
Alphonse Ogulla declaimed: On Thursday 28 August 2003 11:16, you wrote: There is no such language which performs in all situations well. C is fast, but you have to code really careful and double-check your source. Erlang was designed for telephony tasks (message passing, ...). Prolog is superior in expert systems. Perl is real good for quick string hacks. Python scales better than Perl for larger projects and is good for rapid prototyping. C++ scales well in large-scale software designs which needs to be fast... C, Erlang, Prolog, Perl, Python and C++ are all refered to in the above paragraph. Java is conspicuouly not mentioned. I construe that to mean Java is so much lacking in useful qualities to serve any practical purpose. I love religious arguments. Java certainly has flaws: open source licensing issues, flawed I/O implementation, an obscenely large set of base classes. Nonetheless, Java taught me a lot about OOP by forcing me to use references instead of pointers, which certainly served a practical purpose from my POV. Cheers, Paul -- Paul Mackinney [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
Alphonse Ogulla [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: C, Erlang, Prolog, Perl, Python and C++ are all refered to in the above paragraph. Java is conspicuouly not mentioned. I construe that to mean Java is so much lacking in useful qualities to serve any practical purpose. Java is garbage-collected, and doesn't have a syntactically explicit notion of pointers or references. This is actually fairly important to me: the big reason I don't use C++ (aside from it having mutated into something unrecognizable since I learned it 10 years ago) is that I can't think about object lifetimes successfully, and don't want to leak memory. Java saves me from doing that. Does calling f(o) make a copy of the object o? In C++, it depends on whether f() takes a reference parameter or not; in Java, the answer is always no. (The downside is that making a deep copy of an object is a pain.) C++'s big benefit on GNU/Linux, though, is that there are good runtimes that are Free. I've never had good luck using a JVM or class library besides Sun's. This isn't a problem since I work in academia right now, but I could see it being an issue in industry. For Java, maintaining a CLASSPATH is also a big pain. But Java is what I'm using right now, and I think I'm kind of glad that it's not C++. -- David Maze [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://people.debian.org/~dmaze/ Theoretical politics is interesting. Politicking should be illegal. -- Abra Mitchell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
On Thursday 28 Aug 2003 15:06, Ron Johnson wrote: Or the poster doesn't know much about Java. Having used Java, I'd say that Java isn't good for small programs/quick hacks. True, ive personally found java very good for two situations; 1) writing a fast (as in programmer time) multiplatform gui app 2) writing complex web applications where php/perl/whatever scripting just becomes to difficult to manage. Tom -- ^__^ Tom Badran (oo)\__Imperial College (__)\ )\/\ ||w | || || Using Debian SID pgp0.pgp Description: signature
Re: FW: OT: Why is C so popular?
Hi! On Thu Aug 28, 2003 at 03:14:25PM +0300, Alphonse Ogulla wrote: On Thursday 28 August 2003 11:16, you wrote: you == Thomas Krennwallner [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I wrote it at Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:02:44 +0200 What's up with your MUA? There is no such language which performs in all situations well. C is fast, but you have to code really careful and double-check your source. Erlang was designed for telephony tasks (message passing, ...). Prolog is superior in expert systems. Perl is real good for quick string hacks. Python scales better than Perl for larger projects and is good for rapid prototyping. C++ scales well in large-scale software designs which needs to be fast... C, Erlang, Prolog, Perl, Python and C++ are all refered to in the above paragraph. Java is conspicuouly not mentioned. I construe that to mean Java is so much lacking in useful qualities to serve any practical purpose. No. There are too many languages to mention here. Read the last 3 dots in my paragraph as TBC ;-) Java is good for Web Apps, multiplatform GUI, ... INSERT YOUR FAVOURITE LANGUAGE HERE is good for ... And don't forget: But that all doesn't matter. Every language has its pros and cons and trying to find THE language will end in esotheric discussions. For me its clear: use the language you think is good for completing a given task. I know you cannot always make this decision but if you have the chance, choose carefully ;-) So long Thomas -- .''`. Obviously we do not want to leave zombies around. - W. R. Stevens : :' : Thomas Krennwallner djmaecki at ull dot at `. `'` 1024D/67A1DA7B 9484 D99D 2E1E 4E02 5446 DAD9 FF58 4E59 67A1 DA7B `-http://bigfish.ull.at/~djmaecki/ pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
