Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On 10/10/2021 05:47 PM, Tom Dial wrote: On 10/10/21 04:14, Richard Owlett wrote: On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: (Omitted) Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps that I can use that as a selling point to move from Windows to Linux. In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM in which I would run Debian as a demo. Full disclosure: I have not run WINE for 20 years or more, and assume without argument that it is much improved over what it was then. I run VMs regularly under Linux (using KVM), but the current ones are either Linux or FreeBSD; I haven't done a Windows VM for years. That said, it is not the right solution for the problem you describe. And with due respect to Patrick, I do not think running windows in a (presumably) Linux VM is a good solution either. Description tangled as well being in flux. I will supply them with a Windows machine. For my convenience it will have a VM running Debian. The only use being considered now for WINE is my personal home machines. I have supported my wife's various computers for about 25 years under an oral service agreement providing that I will install software as requested, maintain the OS and installed software regularly, analyze and correct software and hardware problems as necessary, and replace the hardware as appropriate. That, and no more, under threat of Serious Issues. That has brought the suffering of Windows 95, now long in the past, and over time reinforced the validity of the first rule I was given as a novice mainframe system programmer 30 years ago: "We install vanilla." Running an emulator like WINE, or Windows in a Linux (?) VM, would likely lead to operational issues arising from interfaces that are not overly well documented and therefore hard to analyze. Resolution often would have to based on web search results of uncertain accuracy and reliability, and consequent false starts and customer dissatisfaction. Either would cause you excessive work and likely enough bring unhappiness to both you and those you aim to assist. Agreed. I recommend you select, with your users' concurrence, a suitable factory refurbished business-grade laptop[1] from a major manufacturer. I have used HP, but Dell, Lenovo, and maybe others probably have similar programs. Refurbished business laptops are a bit costlier than new consumer laptops with comparable performance, but they also are built to a higher standard of reliability and come with significantly less preloaded crapware. They also (HP experience here) may have useful built in diagnostic tools and support software/firmware maintenance support, and they come with a full new unit warranty; in my experience, any defects are minor and cosmetic. I've already talking to such a local vendor. I've bought several Lenovos from them and have observed how they interact with non-tech customers. Also, IIUC they can provide on customer site service. For the use case you describe, I also recommend a service agreement, if available, that provides pick up and delivery service. The HP ones (presently $137 for three year coverage) are fairly inexpensive. While they are unlikely to be used, I consider them worthwhile unless there is a serious cost constraint). Such equipment will come with preinstalled and configured Windows, and current Microsoft maintenance support is quite good and relatively trouble free. And when problems do arise, Microsoft or manufacturer support is likely to be usable to resolve it; they certainly will be as good as random WWW support for a home-brew OS and software setup. Linux tools are undeniable useful in some cases, but will rarely be necessary for a vanilla or nearly vanilla Windows setup. For those instances where they are, it always is nice to have a bootable CD, DVD, or USB key with Linux and a set of common tools on it. I generally use a recent Debian DVD #1 for this and install any missing tools as necessary once it is booted and running. Having Debian in a VM would be nice, but not a deal breaker. Regards Tom Dial [1] Manufacturers also will offer refurbished business desktop or workstation equipment. I
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On 10/10/2021 11:03 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 05:14:36AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps that I can use that as a selling point to move from Windows to Linux. In all honesty, I wouldn't do that: don't force a dual boot on anyone that isn't an expert computer user. They could readily get confused / boot into the wrong OS. That was one of my concerns having done that to myself on my own machines. If I decide to have Debian on their machine it *will be* by using a VM. Better, in this instance, to buy a new computer with Windows and whatever office software they might need and for you to learn enough to use Windows 10 or 11. I can use Windows, I just want Debian tools available to me. If you get Windows Pro, you could readily use Debian over WSL2 if you had to. Reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Subsystem_for_Linux raises all sorts of "red flags". Reminds me of why I abandoned M$ in days of WinXP. On a new computer, don't take the risk of making it dual boot, perhaps having to reinstall Windows, "voiding warranty" and creating a further rod for your back in support. Agreed! This is, perhaps, an unusual viewpoint to take - but I have been involved in trying to set up a special purpose machine for someone who didn't appreciate the help that I was endeavouring to provide, queried costs and so on. > I ended up paying money out of my own pocket to fix items because I was guilt-tripped into it. I'm fortunately in a different situation. I've given better support for free than what they got from the big box store where they bought their current machine. As part of my support the missions agency I'm supplying the machine and its upkeep. In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! As a Linux user, on your own machine, absolutely. Again, you do need to know what you're doing this for and the limitations of Windows - it's something I have considered for folk who are predominantly Linux users but have to use Windows occasionally for work. On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM in which I would run Debian as a demo. Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines? Microsoft's WSL2 is the closest you'll get. That and Debian are no cost options - but in that instance, you have to get your Debian instance from the Microsoft store. That requirement eliminates WSL2 from consideration. I'm investigating Virtualbox and VM Ware. Thanks All best, as ever, Andy Cater
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On 10/10/21 04:14, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: >> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 >> Richard Owlett wrote: (Omitted) > > >> >> Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running >> Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or >> Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. > > For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for > decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new > computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As > I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I > planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its > maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps > that I can use that as a selling point to move from Windows to Linux. > >> In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do >> for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! > > On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. > However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM > in which I would run Debian as a demo. > Full disclosure: I have not run WINE for 20 years or more, and assume without argument that it is much improved over what it was then. I run VMs regularly under Linux (using KVM), but the current ones are either Linux or FreeBSD; I haven't done a Windows VM for years. That said, it is not the right solution for the problem you describe. And with due respect to Patrick, I do not think running windows in a (presumably) Linux VM is a good solution either. I have supported my wife's various computers for about 25 years under an oral service agreement providing that I will install software as requested, maintain the OS and installed software regularly, analyze and correct software and hardware problems as necessary, and replace the hardware as appropriate. That, and no more, under threat of Serious Issues. That has brought the suffering of Windows 95, now long in the past, and over time reinforced the validity of the first rule I was given as a novice mainframe system programmer 30 years ago: "We install vanilla." Running an emulator like WINE, or Windows in a Linux (?) VM, would likely lead to operational issues arising from interfaces that are not overly well documented and therefore hard to analyze. Resolution often would have to based on web search results of uncertain accuracy and reliability, and consequent false starts and customer dissatisfaction. Either would cause you excessive work and likely enough bring unhappiness to both you and those you aim to assist. I recommend you select, with your users' concurrence, a suitable factory refurbished business-grade laptop[1] from a major manufacturer. I have used HP, but Dell, Lenovo, and maybe others probably have similar programs. Refurbished business laptops are a bit costlier than new consumer laptops with comparable performance, but they also are built to a higher standard of reliability and come with significantly less preloaded crapware. They also (HP experience here) may have useful built in diagnostic tools and support software/firmware maintenance support, and they come with a full new unit warranty; in my experience, any defects are minor and cosmetic. For the use case you describe, I also recommend a service agreement, if available, that provides pick up and delivery service. The HP ones (presently $137 for three year coverage) are fairly inexpensive. While they are unlikely to be used, I consider them worthwhile unless there is a serious cost constraint). Such equipment will come with preinstalled and configured Windows, and current Microsoft maintenance support is quite good and relatively trouble free. And when problems do arise, Microsoft or manufacturer support is likely to be usable to resolve it; they certainly will be as good as random WWW support for a home-brew OS and software setup. Linux tools are undeniable useful in some cases, but will rarely be necessary for a vanilla or nearly vanilla Windows setup. For those instances where they are, it always is nice to have a bootable CD, DVD, or USB key with Linux and a set of common tools on it. I generally use a recent Debian DVD #1 for this and install any missing tools as necessary once it is booted and running. Regards Tom Dial [1] Manufacturers also will offer refurbished business desktop or workstation equipment. I like laptops not only for their portability, but because, having only one piece, they simpler to deal with. > Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines? > > Thanks
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 02:05:20PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: I use VirtualBox for my VM needs, but why would you need to: Google Earth has versions that run natively on Windows, OSX and Linux or you can run it in most any web browsers -- https://earth.google.com/ -- regardless of OS. It has been several years since I had need for Earth. Thanks for the update. RLH
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 05:14:36 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: > On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > >> [snip] > > > > > Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running > > Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games > > or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. > > For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple > for decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a > new computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a > replacement. As I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure > Windows users I planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian > primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of > their "must have" apps that I can use that as a selling point to move > from Windows to Linux. If all they've ever used is Windows, leave it at that. Don't attempt to switch them to Linux. It will be more trouble than it's worth. Get them a laptop with Windows, clean the preinstalled and CPU cycles eating background crap off of it, bring it up-to-date, and you're done. > > In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what > > I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! > > On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. > However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a > VM in which I would run Debian as a demo. Unless they really NEED Debian or Linux, don't bother. If you want to demo Linux just get one of the many "live" versions to boot the system. Then they can play with it without installing. And it won't do anything to their existing Windows install. > Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines? Windows has it's own VM. Can't remember its name, but I'd recommend VirtualBox instead -- https://www.virtualbox.org/ . It's free and has versions that run on Linux or Windows, among others. B
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:28:42 + "Russell L. Harris" wrote: > On Sat, Oct 09, 2021 at 08:24:38AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > >On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 > >Richard Owlett wrote: > > >Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running > >Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or > >Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. In those cases, just run > >Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps > >I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! > > Richard, Can you recommend a virtual machine for Debian which can run > Google Earth? > > Richard didn't write that, I did -- Patrick. I use VirtualBox for my VM needs, but why would you need to: Google Earth has versions that run natively on Windows, OSX and Linux or you can run it in most any web browsers -- https://earth.google.com/ -- regardless of OS. B
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 05:14:36AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote: > On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 > > Richard Owlett wrote: > > > > > > Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running > > Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or > > Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. > > For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for > decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new computer > and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As I've not > used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I planned to dual > boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope > WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps that I can use that as a > selling point to move from Windows to Linux. > In all honesty, I wouldn't do that: don't force a dual boot on anyone that isn't an expert computer user. They could readily get confused / boot into the wrong OS. Better, in this instance, to buy a new computer with Windows and whatever office software they might need and for you to learn enough to use Windows 10 or 11. If you get Windows Pro, you could readily use Debian over WSL2 if you had to. On a new computer, don't take the risk of making it dual boot, perhaps having to reinstall Windows, "voiding warranty" and creating a further rod for your back in support. This is, perhaps, an unusual viewpoint to take - but I have been involved in trying to set up a special purpose machine for someone who didn't appreciate the help that I was endeavouring to provide, queried costs and so on. I ended up paying money out of my own pocket to fix items because I was guilt-tripped into it. > > In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do > > for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! > As a Linux user, on your own machine, absolutely. Again, you do need to know what you're doing this for and the limitations of Windows - it's something I have considered for folk who are predominantly Linux users but have to use Windows occasionally for work. > On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. However, > I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM in which I > would run Debian as a demo. > > Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines? Microsoft's WSL2 is the closest you'll get. That and Debian are no cost options - but in that instance, you have to get your Debian instance from the Microsoft store. > > Thanks > > > All best, as ever, Andy Cater > > > >
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On 10/09/2021 10:28 PM, Russell L. Harris wrote: On Sat, Oct 09, 2021 at 08:24:38AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! Richard, Can you recommend a virtual machine for Debian which can run Google Earth? I have never used a VM. See my reply to Patrick.
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: I just installed WINE64 on a Bullseye system. I'm looking for a basic tutorial. Got no promising hits from DuckDuckGo or Google. I did some unproductive roaming of https://www.winehq.org/ . Really? "No promising hits?" I did an "install set up wine" DuckDuckGo search and got numerous useful hits. Of course, if you're looking for a Bullseye specific tutorial, I doubt if you' find one -- too new. Your search terms were better than mine ;/ I included "+tutorial" as a keyword and top hits were how to use git to submit patches. Maybe, these will help: https://itsfoss.com/use-windows-applications-linux/ https://linuxhint.com/install-use-wine-linux/ They gave me what I hoped for in posting -- additional search terms that relate some of my goals. In addition to both being the type of tutorial I was looking for, the second does not have the string "tutorial" in any context. Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps that I can use that as a selling point to move from Windows to Linux. In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM in which I would run Debian as a demo. Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines? Thanks
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On Sat, Oct 09, 2021 at 08:24:38AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! Richard, Can you recommend a virtual machine for Debian which can run Google Earth? -- How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up? - Deuteronomy 32:30
Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial
On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500 Richard Owlett wrote: > I just installed WINE64 on a Bullseye system. I'm looking for a basic > tutorial. Got no promising hits from DuckDuckGo or Google. I did some > unproductive roaming of https://www.winehq.org/ . Really? "No promising hits?" I did an "install set up wine" DuckDuckGo search and got numerous useful hits. Of course, if you're looking for a Bullseye specific tutorial, I doubt if you' find one -- too new. Maybe, these will help: https://itsfoss.com/use-windows-applications-linux/ https://linuxhint.com/install-use-wine-linux/ Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas! B
