Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
On Sunday, 8 January 2006 at 21:13:17 -0500, Joey Hess wrote: > Angus Mackenzie wrote: > > The Tasksel stage of the installer could indeed make life easier for the > > neophyte. It could strongly advise them to install a desktop environment by > > default and make the choice of a console an option for those who Know What > > They Are Doing, as I do 7 or 8 machines later. > > tasksel in etch uses heuristics to automatically default the desktop task > on, if the system looks like one that would reasonably run it. Leaving > the details out, here's the basic logic used: > > if ! enough_ram || ! enough_disk; then > unmark > fi > > if desktop_hardware; then > mark > fi > > if unlikely_desktop_architecture; then > unmark > elif common_desktop_architecture; then > # XXX further heuristics here to avoid selecting the task on > # high-end hardware that's intended to be used as a server. > # For example, if it has two NICs with link, it's probably a > # server. If it's rackmountable, a server, etc. > > mark # probably a desktop ... > else > # XXX further heuristics here > : > fi > > unmark Oh, that's neat. I hadn't noticed that on the etch install I did recently, but it is neat. I still think this step is so important for the neophyte, and so easy to skip past without full consideration that it would be worth labouring it a little. For example, suppose tastsel were split into two stages, with four screens (I am writing this with only a hazy recollection of what was in the installer the last three times I raced through it not bothering to read anything, so some of this is probably there anyway): 1 Clear explanation page that "you are about to decide whether you get a graphic user interface (like doze, mac, etc) or just a command line." [another paragraph to explain that if the GUI doesn't work beginners may need to seek help to get configured] If you want to be working with a mouse and icons, be sure to leave 'desktop evironment' selected. 2 select desktop env. 3 Brief explanation of meaning of other options (in context of stand-alone home computer). Explanation that these options can be added easily afterwards [I recollect that is there anyway]. 4 select other tasksel options. The point being that the first option is critical for a neophyte, and I suspect many do not realize that. -- richard > > > -- > see shy jo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Andy Streich wrote: > Steve, rather than defending the status quo perhaps you could bend a little > and hear the request being made in a different light. I'm not defending the status quo, I am pointing out the inaccuracies in what people are posting. I'm all for doing things better, believe you me. However I do believe before people make suggestions on how something should be improved they really do need to understand what it does presently. If they don't then often times their suggestions are, as in this case, way off the mark. > I spent days trying to figure out how to remove Gnome and > leave KDE in a working state. I fail to see how hard that could be. Start with the Gnome package, see what it depends on, work your way down from there. Leave the libraries alone and you should be fine. If you're using something like aptitude just mark the libraries as managed after the above process is done and any unused Gnome libriaries would be removed. *shrug* Alternatively one could just search on "gnome-" and remove those, mark the libs as managed and do it that way. That is, by no means, an expert approach. Not the neophyte, to be sure, but it is pretty simple. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
On Sunday 08 January 2006 10:30 am, Steve Lamb wrote: > Chris Howie wrote: > > And if that's the case then you select both of them during the install. > > On an advanced install that's exactly what you do. > > > Except that Debian put Gnome there when all I selected was "Desktop > > environment." Come on, you know that Linux users tend to value > > specificity. WHICH desktop environment? > > Whichever you decide the first time *you* log in. > > > I would be very happy to see the tasksel setup show > > exactly what is being installed, e.g. > > > > * Mail server (Exim) > > * Web server (Apache 2) > > * Desktop environment (X.org, KDE, Gnome) > > * DNS server (Bind 9) > > Tasksel is for the neophytes. If you don't want the neophyte answers > use the tools better geared to your experience level. > > > And really, > > how bad can a separate option for KDE and Gnome be? > > It's a largely unneeded question and added complexity. > > > I mean, while we're getting KDE and Gnome, why not icewm, xfce4, and > > fluxbox? > > Show me neophytes who are using icewm, xfce4 or fluxbox. Generally > what do they want "Something like Windows" as that is what they're used to. > The two realistic options are the default. > > > How hard can it be to give the user a choice during the install, and why > > is that such a stupid idea according to you? > > You are given a choice. You just refuse to see that. Steve, rather than defending the status quo perhaps you could bend a little and hear the request being made in a different light. Having the tasksel options is a great feature and perhaps can be improved without adding too much complexity. To me it is as if the current install process is designed to serve two extreme cases: the guru and the know-nothing newbie. Many (most?) of us are between those extremes. I spent days trying to figure out how to remove Gnome and leave KDE in a working state. When I gave up that approach, I tried the guru install thinking I'd avoid having to mess with Gnome at all and just get KDE installed, but the number and detail of the questions presented was just too overwhelming. I never found a combinations of settings that worked. (Strangely, I would have preferred just Gnome and no KDE; but KDE ran fine and Gnome was unstable. I still don't know why). Cheers, Andy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Angus Mackenzie wrote: > The Tasksel stage of the installer could indeed make life easier for the > neophyte. It could strongly advise them to install a desktop environment by > default and make the choice of a console an option for those who Know What > They Are Doing, as I do 7 or 8 machines later. tasksel in etch uses heuristics to automatically default the desktop task on, if the system looks like one that would reasonably run it. Leaving the details out, here's the basic logic used: if ! enough_ram || ! enough_disk; then unmark fi if desktop_hardware; then mark fi if unlikely_desktop_architecture; then unmark elif common_desktop_architecture; then # XXX further heuristics here to avoid selecting the task on # high-end hardware that's intended to be used as a server. # For example, if it has two NICs with link, it's probably a # server. If it's rackmountable, a server, etc. mark # probably a desktop ... else # XXX further heuristics here : fi unmark -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Steve Lamb wrote: Joris Huizer wrote: I think, if the newbie just wants kde because of some fancy screenshots, it's too hard for him/her; remember the newbie doesn't know the character '/' upons up a search in so many linux/unix tools, so he/she is completely lost in an unknown interface Why would it complicate matters so much to add a menu item in the tasksel selection labeled 'KDE desktop' that ads 'kde' to the list of packages to download (as aptitude will do the rest) ? I do not understand :-s No, you don't. In tasksel if you select GUI both are installed. The only thing the newbie has to do is select his interface the first time he logs in from GDM. That's the problem the other poster has. That both are installed. Sorry, in that case I had not understood correctly what the installer does; Installing both is okay. if telling a newbie 'if you want to enter kde instead of gnome, choose it in the menu' is all that is needed to help this newbie, than setup is really great :-) regards, Joris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Joris Huizer wrote: > I think, if the newbie just wants kde because of some fancy screenshots, > it's too hard for him/her; remember the newbie doesn't know the > character '/' upons up a search in so many linux/unix tools, so he/she > is completely lost in an unknown interface > Why would it complicate matters so much to add a menu item in the > tasksel selection labeled 'KDE desktop' that ads 'kde' to the list of > packages to download (as aptitude will do the rest) ? I do not > understand :-s No, you don't. In tasksel if you select GUI both are installed. The only thing the newbie has to do is select his interface the first time he logs in from GDM. That's the problem the other poster has. That both are installed. Why? Think of that newbie. They see a screenshot and think it's cool. Well, given the fluid nature of Linux desktops whatever screenshot he has could be any DE or WM. The two most common and sought after DEs are installed because the chances of them knowing the difference between KDE and Gnome are about the same as Free (as in beer) and free (as in rights). -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Steve Lamb wrote: How hard can it be to give the user a choice during the install, and why is that such a stupid idea according to you? You are given a choice. You just refuse to see that. the way to choose is fine by me, but, for example, manually going through aptitude and finding kde somewhere in tasks isn't exactly easy for the newbie; as said before the tasksel options are not targeted to for advanced debian-users I think, if the newbie just wants kde because of some fancy screenshots, it's too hard for him/her; remember the newbie doesn't know the character '/' upons up a search in so many linux/unix tools, so he/she is completely lost in an unknown interface Why would it complicate matters so much to add a menu item in the tasksel selection labeled 'KDE desktop' that ads 'kde' to the list of packages to download (as aptitude will do the rest) ? I do not understand :-s note, I do not say it's a problem for me, and I personally wouldn't care too much whether there's a KDE option right there - but I do say it'd likely be a problem for me if I never saw aptitude before, without the faintest idea how to search just a small remark -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
I was that newbie 18 months ago! Debian was my first experience of Linux and I found ending up at a console after my first installation surprising and difficult. I got through it with lots of reading of documentation and googling, followed by a blundering and error prone crash course in apt-get. Another installation difficulty was that I didn't appreciate I was supposed to use the space bar to make stars appear in the option columns before proceeding to the option (the tab key I coped with). A bit of text to that effect early on in the process would have helped. Later, I discovered the installation manual... The Tasksel stage of the installer could indeed make life easier for the neophyte. It could strongly advise them to install a desktop environment by default and make the choice of a console an option for those who Know What They Are Doing, as I do 7 or 8 machines later. I really enjoy Debian, and I appreciate the efforts of all the Developers, but it's very hard to put yourself back in the position of someone who doesn't know the basics. Angus Mackenzie -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Chris Howie wrote: > And if that's the case then you select both of them during the install. On an advanced install that's exactly what you do. > Except that Debian put Gnome there when all I selected was "Desktop > environment." Come on, you know that Linux users tend to value specificity. > WHICH desktop environment? Whichever you decide the first time *you* log in. > I would be very happy to see the tasksel setup show > exactly what is being installed, e.g. > * Mail server (Exim) > * Web server (Apache 2) > * Desktop environment (X.org, KDE, Gnome) > * DNS server (Bind 9) Tasksel is for the neophytes. If you don't want the neophyte answers use the tools better geared to your experience level. > And really, > how bad can a separate option for KDE and Gnome be? It's a largely unneeded question and added complexity. > I mean, while we're getting KDE and Gnome, why not icewm, xfce4, and fluxbox? Show me neophytes who are using icewm, xfce4 or fluxbox. Generally what do they want "Something like Windows" as that is what they're used to. The two realistic options are the default. > How hard can it be to give the user a choice during the install, and why is > that such a stupid idea according to you? You are given a choice. You just refuse to see that. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Chris Howie wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Or the system is going to have multiple users who might want different DEs. And if that's the case then you select both of them during the install. I still haven't uninstalled Gnome, something I've been meaning to do for a long time, but haven't had the willpower to spend that much time hunting down every last unneeded package. Hardly Debian's fault there. Except that Debian put Gnome there when all I selected was "Desktop environment." Come on, you know that Linux users tend to value specificity. WHICH desktop environment? I would be very happy to see the tasksel setup show exactly what is being installed, e.g. Well, I guess that you can do that by selecting "Whatever" and "manual package selection". This way you can see exactly what's going to be installed. * Mail server (Exim) * Web server (Apache 2) * Desktop environment (X.org, KDE, Gnome) * DNS server (Bind 9) And the like. Sure, you can always opt for the select-nothing-and-apt-get-it-later approach, but let's be realistic. At least let me know what *exactly* I'm signing up for so I can avoid it. And really, how bad can a separate option for KDE and Gnome be? I mean, while we're getting KDE and Gnome, why not icewm, xfce4, and fluxbox? Why should we stop with two bloated environments when we can have two bloated environments and a million lightweight ones? Are we trying to see how much space we can burn? How hard can it be to give the user a choice during the install, and why is that such a stupid idea according to you? -- Cheers -- Gabriel Parrondo Linux User #404138 "In theory there's no difference between the theory and the practice. In the practice There is." -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Steve Lamb wrote: > Or the system is going to have multiple users who might want different DEs. And if that's the case then you select both of them during the install. >>I still haven't >>uninstalled Gnome, something I've been meaning to do for a long time, but >>haven't had the willpower to spend that much time hunting down every last >>unneeded package. > > Hardly Debian's fault there. Except that Debian put Gnome there when all I selected was "Desktop environment." Come on, you know that Linux users tend to value specificity. WHICH desktop environment? I would be very happy to see the tasksel setup show exactly what is being installed, e.g. * Mail server (Exim) * Web server (Apache 2) * Desktop environment (X.org, KDE, Gnome) * DNS server (Bind 9) And the like. Sure, you can always opt for the select-nothing-and-apt-get-it-later approach, but let's be realistic. At least let me know what *exactly* I'm signing up for so I can avoid it. And really, how bad can a separate option for KDE and Gnome be? I mean, while we're getting KDE and Gnome, why not icewm, xfce4, and fluxbox? Why should we stop with two bloated environments when we can have two bloated environments and a million lightweight ones? Are we trying to see how much space we can burn? How hard can it be to give the user a choice during the install, and why is that such a stupid idea according to you? -- Chris Howie http://www.chrishowie.com -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCS/IT d-(--) s:- a--->? C++(+++)$> UL P$ L+++> E--- W++ N o++ K? w--$ O M- V- PS--(---) PE++ Y+ PGP++ t+ 5? X- R(+)>- tv-(--) b- DI+> D++ G>+++ e>++ h(--)>--- !r>+++ y->+++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Don Jackson wrote: > John Hasler wrote: >> Don Jackson writes: >>> >>> I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the person >>> installing Debian. >> >> >> There is a choice of desktops. There is a choice of _everything_. > > OK, in the small context of the above quote, revise that to say: > > "I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the > person installing Debian *DURING THE INSTALL*." That's what was implied > by the complete text of my original message (I hope). You don't know why? Take your pick of which one you think is the most likely: 1. the idea never occurred to the developers who worked on the installer; 2. the idea occurred to the developers who worked on the installer, but they decided it was a bad idea for whatever reasons (example reason: "since the clued user can always apt-get the environment of choice after installing, such a feature would be for the absolute newbie; but the newbie likely won't know KDE from Gnome from IceWM from XFCE from a toaster oven, so now a detailed explanation of each with sufficient discriminatory power has to go into the installer *too*, so fsck it"); 3. the idea occurred to the developers who worked on the installer, but other things seemed (and seem) to them to be more important (e.g. bug fixes) or more interesting, and thus more worthy of their time. I'm betting on a mix of #2 and #3, depending on the particular developer. -c -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Chris Howie wrote: > Except now you're missing twice the disk space. Seriously, installing both > DEs > is a complete waste of space, unless the user is interested in evaluating both > DEs to see which one he likes better. Or the system is going to have multiple users who might want different DEs. > I still haven't > uninstalled Gnome, something I've been meaning to do for a long time, but > haven't had the willpower to spend that much time hunting down every last > unneeded package. Hardly Debian's fault there. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Steve Lamb wrote: > Because (IIRC) the change is quite simple before the first login from the > GDM screen. I believe barring any user intervention to the contrary when a > GUI environment is selected *both* are installed and the user can choose his > poison from the GDM dropdown. Certainly didn't slow me down were I have > KDE/Gnome/XFCE4 all installed. :) Except now you're missing twice the disk space. Seriously, installing both DEs is a complete waste of space, unless the user is interested in evaluating both DEs to see which one he likes better. If I know I'm going to be using KDE, I don't want the whole Gnome suite installed, and vice-versa. I still haven't uninstalled Gnome, something I've been meaning to do for a long time, but haven't had the willpower to spend that much time hunting down every last unneeded package. A choice during the install would be more than welcome. -- Chris Howie http://www.chrishowie.com -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCS/IT d-(--) s:- a--->? C++(+++)$> UL P$ L+++> E--- W++ N o++ K? w--$ O M- V- PS--(---) PE++ Y+ PGP++ t+ 5? X- R(+)>- tv-(--) b- DI+> D++ G>+++ e>++ h(--)>--- !r>+++ y->+++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Don Jackson wrote: > Admittedly this is not a scientific poll, and I'm not interested in > starting (another) flame war over KDE vs. GNOME (send those comments to > /dev/null please), but I am interested in seeing the Debian Installer > give the user a choice during installation. Because (IIRC) the change is quite simple before the first login from the GDM screen. I believe barring any user intervention to the contrary when a GUI environment is selected *both* are installed and the user can choose his poison from the GDM dropdown. Certainly didn't slow me down were I have KDE/Gnome/XFCE4 all installed. :) -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Don Jackson wrote: This may be considered "off topic" by some, but I just stumbled on an interesting website with a program called "Linux Distribution Chooser". Even though I've been with Debian for a couple years now, I thought I'd just test out the "chooser"... http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/ I went through the series of questions, one of which was what desktop environment I preferred. I chose KDE. The final result of *my* responses to the queries ended with the program suggesting Kubuntu and Mepis, with "In addition, we found these matches, sorted by how well they match:" naming Debian. The note next to it: Failed these criterias: # Does not use the desired desktop environment I know there has been a prolonged discussion on this list recently about why Gnome is the default installation rather than KDE. In fact with all the verbiage, I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the person installing Debian. I use this experience with the "chooser" to point out the continuing misconception about Debian. According to TUX magazine, Desktop Poll Results This is a poll from the tuxmachine Web site. KDE [was favored over] GNOME 51% to 21%—that’s 3 to 1. Admittedly this is not a scientific poll, and I'm not interested in starting (another) flame war over KDE vs. GNOME (send those comments to /dev/null please), but I am interested in seeing the Debian Installer give the user a choice during installation. Why not? Regards, Don -- Confidence is the feeling you have before you really understand the problem. ...this is fuss for no reason at all. a. there *is* a clear choice b. debian is an easy distro c. and wtf should i worry about choices on a site of people who did not do their homework steef -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
On 06 Jan 2006, Don Jackson wrote: > This may be considered "off topic" by some, but I just stumbled on an > interesting website with a program called "Linux Distribution Chooser". > Even though I've been with Debian for a couple years now, I thought I'd > just test out the "chooser"... > > http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/ > > I went through the series of questions, one of which was what desktop > environment I preferred. I chose KDE. > > The final result of *my* responses to the queries ended with the program > suggesting Kubuntu and Mepis, with "In addition, we found these matches, > sorted by how well they match:" naming Debian. The note next to it: > > > Failed these criterias: > > # Does not use the desired desktop environment > I got a broadly similar result, except that I had not chosen either KDE or Gnome because I don't like either. I think they should include an option to reject both. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Linux Gnu-Debian http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, on-line books and sceptical articles) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
John Hasler wrote: > Don Jackson writes: > >>I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the person >>installing Debian. > > > There is a choice of desktops. There is a choice of _everything_. OK, in the small context of the above quote, revise that to say: "I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the person installing Debian *DURING THE INSTALL*." That's what was implied by the complete text of my original message (I hope). I agree with you fully that there is a choice of (almost) everything, BUT that is NOT the perception that many people have, including the author(s) of the "chooser" program I mentioned. I just figure as a user and supporter of Debian distro that I'd like to see as many as possible using the works of the developers, for their satisfaction and for the benefit of all of us. Just a step in making it easier for a novice to install Debian helps in this direction, cutting down on the time need to help. I don't think that Debian should be "dumbed down", but I do think that anything that can be done up front to make the install go better would be beneficial (to all of us). Joey and team have done a remarkable job in the present installer, which went a long way to boost Debian. It was not my intent in making the original post to debate the subject, just to point out something of interest to some, and to make a suggestion. Don -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
D-kewl. I made honest selections regarding the last few builds with Debian I have done AND it selected Debian. I think of the Debian installer as at least a semi-GUI interface, but I guess it isn't! RbtBotL Craig - ><> oBU SysAdmin /|\ 607 777 6827 ^ Tot Ziens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Don Jackson writes: > I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the person > installing Debian. There is a choice of desktops. There is a choice of _everything_. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Distribution Chooser
Don Jackson escreveu: This may be considered "off topic" by some, but I just stumbled on an interesting website with a program called "Linux Distribution Chooser". Even though I've been with Debian for a couple years now, I thought I'd just test out the "chooser"... http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/ I went through the series of questions, one of which was what desktop environment I preferred. I chose KDE. The final result of *my* responses to the queries ended with the program suggesting Kubuntu and Mepis, with "In addition, we found these matches, sorted by how well they match:" naming Debian. The note next to it: Failed these criterias: # Does not use the desired desktop environment I know there has been a prolonged discussion on this list recently about why Gnome is the default installation rather than KDE. In fact with all the verbiage, I still don't know WHY there isn't a choice of desktops given the person installing Debian. I use this experience with the "chooser" to point out the continuing misconception about Debian. According to TUX magazine, Desktop Poll Results This is a poll from the tuxmachine Web site. KDE [was favored over] GNOME 51% to 21%—that’s 3 to 1. Admittedly this is not a scientific poll, and I'm not interested in starting (another) flame war over KDE vs. GNOME (send those comments to /dev/null please), but I am interested in seeing the Debian Installer give the user a choice during installation. Why not? Regards, Don -- Confidence is the feeling you have before you really understand the problem. Maybe this is not a priority, in dd's minds. Given that debian features such a simple package manager as apt, where you can 'apt-get install kde', they prefer to spend their time fixing bugs instead. Release span has been appointed as a more important task. Remember how many time sarge took to see the light? I have nothing against ease of use, but I think debian is already very easy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
