Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 09:17:56AM -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC being requested? Or do many people read the list via the web interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed and will still get annoyed if they are CCed? I need some guidance here. There have been a number of times that I have not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it, but because they thought their problem was now solved, they were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake, etc. I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking. But neither do I want to annoy people. It is policy not to CC unless explicitly requested, but sometimes discretion is called for. If a poster is obviously a newbie (you can usually tell by the content but also if the poster has not posted before.) it shouldn't hurt, although this is fairly rare. A lot of other lists CC on principle. The argument being that it is more important that the recipent receive the message in a timely manner (they may be subscribed to several mailing lists and not read them as often as their personal mail. -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100320131118.ge4...@fischer
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 09:17:56AM -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC being requested? Or do many people read the list via the web interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed and will still get annoyed if they are CCed? I need some guidance here. There have been a number of times that I have not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it, but because they thought their problem was now solved, they were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake, etc. I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking. But neither do I want to annoy people. It is policy not to CC unless explicitly requested, but sometimes discretion is called for. If a poster is obviously a newbie (you can usually tell by the content but also if the poster has not posted before.) it shouldn't hurt, although this is fairly rare. A lot of other lists CC on principle. The argument being that it is more important that the recipent receive the message in a timely manner (they may be subscribed to several mailing lists and not read them as often as their personal mail. I'm afraid I messed up repeatedly on this when I made my first posts to this list. Between the number of different sets of preferences amongst the newsgroups to which I'm subscribing and getting used to a new mail client (went from Claws to Icedove) I'm probably causing a lot of disruption. (Hope I did it right this time.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba4e891.6070...@comcast.net
Re: Mailing list policy change?
Paul E Condon wrote: As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about. Well, the only problem with that thought is that if you take a quick look at, say, actual DD posts to debian-devel, you will find rampant CCing. You will also probably find that DDs on debian-user sometimes CC users who ask a question, but may not be subscribed to this list. There are well-known and well-documented procmail and maildrop rules to drop duplicate mails due to CCs. Anyone who is very bothered by CCs probably uses those tools. BTW, a common result of using those rules is for CC'd messages to only show up in the main inbox, rather than in a mailing list's folder[1]. Which can be convenient, or annoying, depending. So the existence of the 'no CC' rule in the mailing list code of contact is probably best understood as being similar to the speed limit: A well-intentioned rule, often ignored by many to most, that allows dealing with grevious offenders, but at the cost of allowing the net police to single out anyone who is just following along, and make their day miserable. (Which also explains the following rule in the code of conduct, about not complaining publically when the CC rule is broken.) -- see shy jo [1] Because the CC'd copy typically arrives first, and is lacking the mailing list headers. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Friday 19 March 2010 14:17:56 Stephen Powell wrote: There have been a number of times that I have not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it, That' s it. Continue! Thierry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201003191452.16899.tchate...@free.fr
Re: Mailing list policy change?
Stephen Powell skrev: Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC being requested? Or do many people read the list via the web interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed and will still get annoyed if they are CCed? As a humble user, I do not know, but I want to mention two things: 1) The debian homepage at http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct asks not to CC unless explicitly requested to. 2) At least I read the debian lists via the nntp-interface at news.gmane.org, and find that to be a very convenient way, as I can access the list (using icedove) without getting lots of mails to my private email account(s). Thus I am not subscribed to any debian lists, but read more than a dozen of them. I have no idea how common that practice is, and gmane.org seems not to provide such statistics. Regards Johan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hnvvpv$af...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri,19.Mar.10, 09:17:56, Stephen Powell wrote: Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the list. If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server). But on this occasion, I got only one copy. How long has it been? The mail could be stuck on its way (greylisting) or some spam filter. That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up recently. Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of a posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO, CC, or BCC fields. Is that the case? If so, I wonder why that change was not made long ago. It would eliminate a lot of problems. We could CC the poster without fear that he will get two copies and thus complain. I personally wouldn't like such a change. I very much prefer to sometimes get CC'd by mistake (I usually just ignore it). Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:17:56 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: (...) Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the list. If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server). But on this occasion, I got only one copy. And the copy you got, was the e-mail coming from the list server or was the direct reply? :-? That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up recently. I hope not :-) I prefer me (the user) to choose what to do with those e-mails. Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of a posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO, CC, or BCC fields. Is that the case? If so, I wonder why that change was not made long ago. It would eliminate a lot of problems. We could CC the poster without fear that he will get two copies and thus complain. I have to monitor that :-? Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC being requested? That would be quite annoying. Or do many people read the list via the web interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed and will still get annoyed if they are CCed? I am not susbcribed, but I read/follow the list (and send posts) via Gmane. I need some guidance here. There have been a number of times that I have not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it, but because they thought their problem was now solved, they were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake, etc. I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking. But neither do I want to annoy people. If people do not read the list is up to them, don't you think? :-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.03.19.14.23...@gmail.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:16:40 -0400 (EDT), Andrei Popescu wrote: On Fri,19.Mar.10, 09:17:56, Stephen Powell wrote: Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the list. If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server). But on this occasion, I got only one copy. How long has it been? The mail could be stuck on its way (greylisting) or some spam filter. It's been about a day, I think. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/920458307.20280091269010287122.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On 3/19/2010 8:17 AM, Stephen Powell wrote: Historically, debian-user, and all of the Debian mailing lists, have had a rule that you post and reply only to the list, and that you do not CC anybody unless they explicitly request a CC. I have been following that rule. However ... Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the list. If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server). But on this occasion, I got only one copy. That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up No, probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list, like Thunderbird 3. Or, your other message got lost in the 'net. Or something. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba39029.8070...@allums.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT), Camaleón wrote: On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:17:56 -0400, Stephen Powell wrote: Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the list. If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server). But on this occasion, I got only one copy. And the copy you got, was the e-mail coming from the list server or was the direct reply? :-? It's not easy to tell. Mail received from the list server always appears to my e-mail client to have been sent directly from the sender. The TO and CC fields are not edited from the original e-mail. If I examined the internet headers directly, I might be able to tell. But I've already deleted it. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1381549734.20281871269010704688.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On 20100319_091756, Stephen Powell wrote: Historically, debian-user, and all of the Debian mailing lists, have had a rule that you post and reply only to the list, and that you do not CC anybody unless they explicitly request a CC. I have been following that rule. However ... Recently, someone posted something to the list and CCed me. Since I am subscribed to the list, I get a private e-mail for each posting to the list. If a poster also CCs me, I have been used to getting two copies: one directly (via the CC) and one indirectly (via the list server). But on this occasion, I got only one copy. That makes me wonder if the list server has been smartened up recently. Perhaps a list subscriber is no longer sent a copy of a posting if his e-mail address is explicitly listed in the TO, CC, or BCC fields. Is that the case? If so, I wonder why that change was not made long ago. It would eliminate a lot of problems. We could CC the poster without fear that he will get two copies and thus complain. Does this mean that it is OK to CC people now, without a CC being requested? Or do many people read the list via the web interface to the mailing list archives without being subscribed and will still get annoyed if they are CCed? I need some guidance here. There have been a number of times that I have not CCed people because they didn't explicitly ask for it, but because they thought their problem was now solved, they were not looking at the list anymore and therefore didn't see my follow-up post offering a correction to an earlier mistake, etc. I don't want people to miss posts because they aren't looking. But neither do I want to annoy people. Steve: I think users like me can easily subscribe or can easily request a CC. The present rule is simple and easily understood. It saves help givers, who must generate many more emails, from having to explicitely say 'no CC' in almost every email. Why burden them with that trivial annoyance? We users should want to make giving help fun, I hope. I think a 'no CC' message in a signature block looks unfriendly, even stupid. Like the legal notices about not reading wrongly delivered email. I would not want to create an environment in which any help giver felt an urgent need to do such. As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about. But if I violate the rules of list etiquette, I prefer to receive an email addressed directly to me rather than to be publicly shamed on the list. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100319185213.gg7...@big.lan.gnu
Re: Mailing list policy change?
Paul E Condon wrote: -snip- I think a 'no CC' message in a signature block looks unfriendly, even stupid. Like the legal notices about not reading wrongly delivered email. I would not want to create an environment in which any help giver felt an urgent need to do such. As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about. But if I violate the rules of list etiquette, I prefer to receive an email addressed directly to me rather than to be publicly shamed on the list. Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have missed that one, sorry. -- Odd -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba3cd91.6020...@runbox.no
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:16, Odd iod...@runbox.no wrote: Paul E Condon wrote: -snip- I think a 'no CC' message in a signature block looks unfriendly, even stupid. Like the legal notices about not reading wrongly delivered email. I would not want to create an environment in which any help giver felt an urgent need to do such. As a matter of fact, the current rule is helpful to me in assessing the advice that I get. If I get a CC, I think this guy isn't a real DD --- I wonder if he knows what he's talking about. But if I violate the rules of list etiquette, I prefer to receive an email addressed directly to me rather than to be publicly shamed on the list. Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have missed that one, sorry. DD = Debian Developer As far as the no CC unless requested rule, I think we need to keep it. I am on a couple of mailing lists (vertpaleo and dinoML) that don't have such a rule and it is messy (there are other, bigger problems, but CCs definitely contribute). Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1840f6971003191225ifc73a2ck5a0ce04a132a2...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:16:33 -0400 (EDT), Odd wrote: Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have missed that one, sorry. I didn't write it, of course, but I think in this context DD means Debian Developer. Correct me if I'm wrong, Paul. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/735574947.20349301269026959329.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:16:33 +0100 Odd iod...@runbox.no wrote: ... Could you please explain what 'DD' stands for? I seem to have missed that one, sorry. Generally, Debian Developer. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100319153644.33b90d67.cele...@gmail.com
Re: Mailing list policy change?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mark Allums wrote: probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list, like Thunderbird 3. Lenny's default Thunderbird (that is, 2.0.0.22) doesn't though. I believe it requires manually changing Cc: to To: in the list address and manual backspacing over the unwanted email address. Please correct me if I'm wrong (which I hope is the case). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkuj7rUACgkQ+VSRxYk440/gXgCgiksaqLod8xJWLXeKl8aBjMMU aE8AoMyTmYMT4yzgZL66nAOIdH6H8zKf =Lxwu -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba3eeb5.9020...@web.de
Re: Mailing list policy change?
On 2010-03-19 16:37, Clive McBarton wrote: Mark Allums wrote: probably more and more people have a mail UA that has reply-to-list, like Thunderbird 3. Lenny's default Thunderbird (that is, 2.0.0.22) doesn't though. I believe it requires manually changing Cc: to To: in the list address and manual backspacing over the unwanted email address. Please correct me if I'm wrong (which I hope is the case). There's a reply-to-list plugin which for years I've been using to great effect. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba3efbf.8060...@cox.net