Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-24 Thread csj
On 23. October 2005 at 7:53PM -0700,
Andy Streich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]

> AFAIK, there is not a single vendor of PC's that provides a
> robust system out of the box that includes a ready-to-go
> backup/recovery procedure.  It's always something left to the
> user.  It's like selling a car without a spare and a jack.

Well, if the data's critical enough, it's more like selling a car
without airbags and seatbelts.  A person with a flat tire can
just step out of a car and take a taxi.


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Kent West
Paul Johnson wrote:

>On Saturday 22 October 2005 03:57 pm, Ian Cavnar wrote:
>  
>
>>I'm hopingthat you mean 60 and 80 GB, as 140MB is nowhere near enough to
>>install Debian and have anything useful for a newb on there.
>>
>>
>
>Not true.  Just depends on the newbie's situation.  Case in point, I switched 
>because I couldn't stand the thought of replacing a defective Windows CD just 
>to reinstall an OS on my 386 back in 1997.  18MB RAM, 120MB disk.  It's one 
>hell of a squeeze, and you'll probably have to trip /usr/share/doc to make it 
>fit, but it works.
>
>  
>
I think the operative phrase was "for a newb"; I wouldn't expect a newb
to be able to do this squeezing of which you speak.

But I understand your sentiment, and agree.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Steve Lamb
Andy Streich wrote:
> AFAIK, there is not a single vendor of PC's that provides a robust system out 
> of the box that includes a ready-to-go backup/recovery procedure.  It's 
> always something left to the user.   It's like selling a car without a spare 
> and a jack.

It's a hardware issue.  Tell me what piece of hardware you're going to
presume the user has to back up to.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Paul Johnson
On Sunday 23 October 2005 07:53 pm, Andy Streich wrote:
> On Sunday 23 October 2005 06:27 pm, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > This is a straw-man argument.  Anybody who actually cares about their
> > data keeps a good set of backups anyway.
>
> Then you are not familiar with the legions of PC users who know nothing of
> making backups, care a lot about their data, and only realize they should
> have learned about regular backups when the data turns to toast.

Obviously they didn't care enough about their data to think about how to 
protect it.  They got what they had coming.

> It's not that people are lazy (okay, some are) but just clueless.

Cluelessness is a symptom of laziness.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Andy Streich
On Sunday 23 October 2005 06:27 pm, Paul Johnson wrote:
> This is a straw-man argument.  Anybody who actually cares about their data
> keeps a good set of backups anyway.

Then you are not familiar with the legions of PC users who know nothing of 
making backups, care a lot about their data, and only realize they should 
have learned about regular backups when the data turns to toast.

I think this is the biggest failure of every OS install (or more generally a 
lack of evolution in design).  While providing a desktop system with all the 
common office programs, there is no prompting for setting up a backup 
procedure. 

It's not that people are lazy (okay, some are) but just clueless.

AFAIK, there is not a single vendor of PC's that provides a robust system out 
of the box that includes a ready-to-go backup/recovery procedure.  It's 
always something left to the user.   It's like selling a car without a spare 
and a jack.



Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Paul Johnson
On Friday 21 October 2005 06:45 pm, Greg wrote:
> It worked, sort of.
>
> Thanks to all for the advice, including the kind I didn't listen to.
> The dual boot stet up fine.  However, during the Debian install, I
> accidently skipped over the part to install the desktop environment,
> print server, etc.  When all was complete I was left with a prompt.
> Not what I was hoping for.  Is there a way to install the desktop
> environment with doing a whole re-install.

apt-get install 

If you don't know what you're looking for, try apt-get install kde

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Paul Johnson
On Friday 21 October 2005 04:39 pm, Marty wrote:
> Antony Gelberg wrote:
> > He is new to Debian but sounds like he has a decent understanding of
> > PCs.  If he is stupid enough to delete his Windows partition during the
> > install, it will certainly be the kind of mistake he learns from.  :)
> >
> > d-i is very friendly and I think he should proceed with both drives
> > connected.
>
> Easy enough to say when somebody else's data is at risk, and the
> friendliness of all the strangers in the world may not be enough to recover
> his lost data.

This is a straw-man argument.  Anybody who actually cares about their data 
keeps a good set of backups anyway.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Paul Johnson
On Saturday 22 October 2005 03:57 pm, Ian Cavnar wrote:
> I'm hopingthat you mean 60 and 80 GB, as 140MB is nowhere near enough to
> install Debian and have anything useful for a newb on there.

Not true.  Just depends on the newbie's situation.  Case in point, I switched 
because I couldn't stand the thought of replacing a defective Windows CD just 
to reinstall an OS on my 386 back in 1997.  18MB RAM, 120MB disk.  It's one 
hell of a squeeze, and you'll probably have to trip /usr/share/doc to make it 
fit, but it works.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Paul Johnson
On Friday 21 October 2005 12:02 pm, Greg wrote:

> I've sorted for this topic what wasn't able to find information on my
> setup.

Didn't try too hard, eh?  Windows ME and Windows 95 are identical from a 
booting perspective.

http://ursine.ca/cgi-bin/dwww?type=file&location=/usr/share/doc/HOWTO/en-html/HOWTO-INDEX/../Linux%2BWin95/index.html

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Thomas Jollans

Greg wrote:


I'm a noob to Debian but I'm ready to install Debian to my current
machine.  (PIII, 512MB Ram, 2 HDs; 60 MB - main and 80 MB secondary).
The first HD contains WinME (don't laugh) and the second will contain
Debian in one partition and Windows files (mp3s, JPEGs) in the other.
I've already partitioned the second HD and burned the installation
image files onto CDs.  My question is this, I want to use a boot loader
that will load either WinME or Debian.  Grub seems like the default
boot loader per the installation docs I've read.  During installation,
will Grub be smart enough to see WinMe on the other drive and will
itput the boot loader file on the main drive, the one that holds WinME?

I've sorted for this topic what wasn't able to find information on my
setup.
 

It should work fine. every time i installed debian it found my winodws 
(xp) install and at least some of the other linux installations without 
problems. I have never expierienced data loss when installing debian. my 
windoze uses fat32, as WinMe does.
in case it doesn't auto-detect, you can always add winme to grub. or you 
can use the windows boot loader to boot debian (at least with win2000 
and winXP ) ( tricky )



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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-23 Thread Hugo Vanwoerkom

Kent West wrote:

Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:



Under what conditions can I copy data under X and paste with gpm and
viceversa, with just the mouse strokes?



I don't believe you can. I just tried selecting text in X, switching to
VT1, and pasting with my middle button. Nothing happened. So I selected
text in VT1, then hopped back to X, and tried to paste with a middle
click; what pasted was the first text I selected in X.



That's what I get, so now I do it through a file, but that's a pain. 
This must have been thought of before.


H


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Greg

Kent West wrote:

> 3) This list generally discourages top-posting (putting your reply about
> the text of the message to which you're replying). Interspersed
> contextual replies are preferred...

Understood.  Etiquette is import.

Again, thanks for the help.

Greg


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Kent West
Greg wrote:

>THank you for you insight on this.  FYI, I was able to make this work.
>However, when I go into aptitude and look at packages to be removed, it
>shows gpm.  I also recall an error message that stated something to the
>affect that gpm was obsolete and would be reomoved from the install.
>Predictably, I was playing around with aptitude and removed gpm.  Alas,
>my mouse stopped working and I had to go through these steps again.
>
>Is there another way to make this mouse work?
>
>FYI, I'm using a MS 2 button + scroll wheel.  Serial, 6pin.
>
>  
>
1) I'm unaware of gpm being obsolete; perhaps the version you had
installed was obsolete. Just "aptitude install gpm" to reinstall it.
This should get your mouse working again.

2) The gpm package is unnecessary for your mouse to work in X; it's only
the mouse driver for the console. So if you want a mouse in both the
console and in X, you have to install gpm and configure it to work with
the X driver.

3) This list generally discourages top-posting (putting your reply about
the text of the message to which you're replying). Interspersed
contextual replies are preferred, like so:

> My point A.
Your response to A.
> My point B.
Your response to B.

4) Also, as a general rule, you probably want to avoid replying
privately, in favor of keeping messages on the list. This serves three
purposes:
 A: Others who might be following the thread hoping for answers get the
benefit of any new material.
 B: The material gets archived, benefiting future seekers of the answers.
 C: The person to whom you privately reply may not know the answer; by
replying on the list you get the benefit of input from others who might
know the answer. For example, I'm unaware of gpm being obsolete; perhaps
others have input on this issue.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Greg
I installed it and it works, however, I have a few issues.  I can't get
my linksys wireless card to work (WMP54G), but I can get on the net
when I run cat5 from my NIC directly to rounter.  (I have both a
wireless card and NIC)

Also, I installed gphoto2 but the system won't recongnize my camera.
When I'm at the command line and I turn on my camera, it recognizes
that it's a Sony (DSC-V1), but not which model.  I can't download
photo's or even list the files on the camera.  Same situation in
desktop environment or command line.

Greg


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Ian Cavnar

No prob. Have you installed it yet?

Greg wrote:


Yes, GB not MB.  My bad.


 




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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Greg
Yes, GB not MB.  My bad.


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Kent West
Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

> Under what conditions can I copy data under X and paste with gpm and
> viceversa, with just the mouse strokes?
>
I don't believe you can. I just tried selecting text in X, switching to
VT1, and pasting with my middle button. Nothing happened. So I selected
text in VT1, then hopped back to X, and tried to paste with a middle
click; what pasted was the first text I selected in X.

-- 
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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Ian Cavnar
I'm hopingthat you mean 60 and 80 GB, as 140MB is nowhere near enough to 
install Debian and have anything useful for a newb on there.





 




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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Hugo Vanwoerkom

Greg wrote:

Okay.  I played with some of the mouse settings and was able to get
into X but mouse wouldn't work.  I googled some and found this from
Kent West;

If you're in X, press Ctrl-Alt-F2 to get to the second virtual
terminal;
if you're not in X, you're fine where you are.

"apt-get install gpm"
Tell gpm that your mouse is on "/dev/psaux", of type "imps2", and to
repeat "raw". After gpm is installed, move the mouse; you should see a
white block cursor moving on the screen. If not, run "gpmconfig" and
tinker with the settings some more. If you have a USB mouse, the
location will be "/dev/input/mice", but you also have to have USB
support working, which is another can of worms.

Then reconfigure X to use the raw data repeated from gpm. Do this with
the command "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86", and specify
"/dev/gpmdata" as the mouse location. You'll need to restart X after
this. If you started X with "startx", just switch back to X with
(Ctrl-)Alt-F7, and press Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to kill X. If X was started
with a tool like kdm or gdm (you had a graphical logon screen), restart
that tool with a command like "/etc/init.d/gpm restart" (substitute
xdm,
wdm, kdm for gdm until it works).

Now your mouse should be working.




Under what conditions can I copy data under X and paste with gpm and 
viceversa, with just the mouse strokes?


H


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Kent West
Greg wrote:

>"apt-get install gpm"
>Tell gpm that your mouse is on "/dev/psaux", of type "imps2", and to
>repeat "raw".
>
I have since learned that the "officially" proper repeat type is "ms3".

>If you have a USB mouse, the
>location will be "/dev/input/mice", but you also have to have USB
>support working, which is another can of worms.
>
>Then reconfigure X to use the raw data repeated from gpm. Do this with
>the command "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86", and specify
>"/dev/gpmdata" as the mouse location.
>
If you're using a USB mouse, I believe both gpm and X can be configured
to read from /dev/input/mice/. The /dev/input/mice device is smart
enough to be able to feed mice events to multiple readers, whereas with
the older /dev/psaux device, when gpm read a mouse event, that event
would not be readable by X, and vice-versa, so that the mouse was
unpredictable; letting gpm read all the events, and then repeating them
to X solved this problem.

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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-22 Thread Greg
Okay.  I played with some of the mouse settings and was able to get
into X but mouse wouldn't work.  I googled some and found this from
Kent West;

If you're in X, press Ctrl-Alt-F2 to get to the second virtual
terminal;
if you're not in X, you're fine where you are.

"apt-get install gpm"
Tell gpm that your mouse is on "/dev/psaux", of type "imps2", and to
repeat "raw". After gpm is installed, move the mouse; you should see a
white block cursor moving on the screen. If not, run "gpmconfig" and
tinker with the settings some more. If you have a USB mouse, the
location will be "/dev/input/mice", but you also have to have USB
support working, which is another can of worms.

Then reconfigure X to use the raw data repeated from gpm. Do this with
the command "dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86", and specify
"/dev/gpmdata" as the mouse location. You'll need to restart X after
this. If you started X with "startx", just switch back to X with
(Ctrl-)Alt-F7, and press Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to kill X. If X was started
with a tool like kdm or gdm (you had a graphical logon screen), restart
that tool with a command like "/etc/init.d/gpm restart" (substitute
xdm,
wdm, kdm for gdm until it works).

Now your mouse should be working.


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Greg
I got the mouse and desktop to work.  I will post tomorrow regarding
how I did it.

I have a few more things to fix (wireless networking, etc), but I like
what I see so far.  It seems to be a very elegent operating system.

Good night.

Greg


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread John Schmidt
On Friday 21 October 2005 08:58 pm, Greg wrote:
> Actually, I did a Google.  I ran tasksel as root and loaded the files
> for the dektop.  I answered several questions during the process.
> However, I still can't load the desktop.  I get the following error
> message
>
> (EE) ef860penSerial I cannot open device /dev/input/mouse
> (EE) ConfiguredMouse: Cannot open input device
> (EE) PreInit failed for input device "Configured Mouse"
>
> Although I'm a noob, I can surmise that I've got a problem with my
> mouse.  How to fix?  The mouse is a serial mouse with 6 male pins in
> the connector and 6 female receptors in the back of the PC.  The mouse
> is a MS 2 button + scroll wheel.
>
> Any help you can provide would be great.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Greg

Greg,

Run this command as root:

apt-get install mdetect

This will install a program that will help detect and setup your mouse in X 
windows.

Then run this command as root:

dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86

This will then try reconfiguring the desktop and should do the mouse detection 
step again.

John Schmidt


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Greg
Actually, I did a Google.  I ran tasksel as root and loaded the files
for the dektop.  I answered several questions during the process.
However, I still can't load the desktop.  I get the following error
message

(EE) ef860penSerial I cannot open device /dev/input/mouse
(EE) ConfiguredMouse: Cannot open input device
(EE) PreInit failed for input device "Configured Mouse"

Although I'm a noob, I can surmise that I've got a problem with my
mouse.  How to fix?  The mouse is a serial mouse with 6 male pins in
the connector and 6 female receptors in the back of the PC.  The mouse
is a MS 2 button + scroll wheel.

Any help you can provide would be great.

Thank you,

Greg


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Alan Ianson
On Fri October 21 2005 06:45 pm, Greg wrote:
> It worked, sort of.
>
> Thanks to all for the advice, including the kind I didn't listen to.
> The dual boot stet up fine.  However, during the Debian install, I
> accidently skipped over the part to install the desktop environment,
> print server, etc.  When all was complete I was left with a prompt.
> Not what I was hoping for.  Is there a way to install the desktop
> environment with doing a whole re-install.

That is the way I always install debian, so depending on your point of view 
your just where you should be. :)

Now you need to install whatever software you choose. There are a few ways to 
do that, what's below is the way I do it, not the gospel in any way. You can 
use it or not.

I use dselect as my prefered front end to the debian archive. There is also 
aptitude. You can pick and choose whatever you'd like to install. I'd start 
with alsa-base, x-window-system as well as gnome and/or kde.

If you choose to use deselect you'll need to use the update option from it's 
main menu before you get underway so it'll read in your list of what's 
available. Have fun! BTW, that prompt is the most powerful in the computing 
world, don't forget about it.. ;)


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Carl Fink
On Fri, Oct 21, 2005 at 06:45:19PM -0700, Greg wrote:

> Thanks to all for the advice, including the kind I didn't listen to.
> The dual boot stet up fine.  However, during the Debian install, I
> accidently skipped over the part to install the desktop environment,
> print server, etc.  When all was complete I was left with a prompt.
> Not what I was hoping for.  Is there a way to install the desktop
> environment with doing a whole re-install.

As root run "base-config".
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If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Greg
It worked, sort of.

Thanks to all for the advice, including the kind I didn't listen to.
The dual boot stet up fine.  However, during the Debian install, I
accidently skipped over the part to install the desktop environment,
print server, etc.  When all was complete I was left with a prompt.
Not what I was hoping for.  Is there a way to install the desktop
environment with doing a whole re-install.

Again, thaks to all.

Greg


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Marty

Antony Gelberg wrote:


He is new to Debian but sounds like he has a decent understanding of
PCs.  If he is stupid enough to delete his Windows partition during the
install, it will certainly be the kind of mistake he learns from.  :)

d-i is very friendly and I think he should proceed with both drives
connected.


Easy enough to say when somebody else's data is at risk, and the friendliness
of all the strangers in the world may not be enough to recover his lost data.

Moreover the reference to stupidity doesn't seem to cover the possibility of
bugs or poor design in the installation routine, which could cause or contribute
to catastrophic data loss.




Furthermore since you are using separate hard drives, you can probably
select the boot drive using the BIOS boot device selection menu (e.g.
F8->Boot Menu)
available on newer motherboards.  There is probably no need in your
case to use a boot loader for OS selection.


Talk about making an inelegant solution (dual-booting) even more so.




Elegance is in the eye of the beholder.  To me, such redundancy does not seem
elegant in the least, just a source of additional complexity and modes of 
failure.


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez
Greg wrote:
> I'm a noob to Debian but I'm ready to install Debian to my current
> machine.  (PIII, 512MB Ram, 2 HDs; 60 MB - main and 80 MB secondary).
> The first HD contains WinME (don't laugh) and the second will contain
> Debian in one partition and Windows files (mp3s, JPEGs) in the other.
> I've already partitioned the second HD and burned the installation
> image files onto CDs.  My question is this, I want to use a boot loader
> that will load either WinME or Debian.  Grub seems like the default
> boot loader per the installation docs I've read.  During installation,
> will Grub be smart enough to see WinMe on the other drive and will
> itput the boot loader file on the main drive, the one that holds WinME?
> 
> I've sorted for this topic what wasn't able to find information on my
> setup.
> 
Don't be afraid to try it. Do it. Of course first do a backup of your
info in winME. Then, put your CD, reboot from CD and follow the show.
Maybe you should let the installer do the partition for you and let it
take all the free espace on /dev/hdb (that is the name of your second
hard disk in linux) In case that the installer couldn't configure grub
correctly, you should put something like this in your
/boot/grub/menu.lst, after the new debian system is running:

title   Windows 2000
root(hd0,0)
makeactive
chainloader +1

with this I can dual boot my debian sarge and my almost never used win2k.

> Thank you in advance,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 

Miguel


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Marty

Greg wrote:

I'm a noob to Debian but I'm ready to install Debian to my current
machine.  (PIII, 512MB Ram, 2 HDs; 60 MB - main and 80 MB secondary).
The first HD contains WinME (don't laugh) and the second will contain
Debian in one partition and Windows files (mp3s, JPEGs) in the other.
I've already partitioned the second HD and burned the installation
image files onto CDs.  My question is this, I want to use a boot loader
that will load either WinME or Debian.  Grub seems like the default
boot loader per the installation docs I've read.  During installation,
will Grub be smart enough to see WinMe on the other drive and will
itput the boot loader file on the main drive, the one that holds WinME?


I don't know the answer to question question, but it raises a red flag,
byt suggesting that you are planning to install Debian on a system with WinME
present.  That's an unnecessary and risky thing to do, especially for a "noob."
I strongly recommend against it, especially if your system is not 100% backed 
up.
Instead you could just remove or disconnect the WinME drive, to avoid the risk
of total and irretrievable data loss on the WinME drive.

This is not opinion or excess alarm on my part-- the Debian installation
software will give you the same warning.

Furthermore since you are using separate hard drives, you can probably select
the boot drive using the BIOS boot device selection menu (e.g. F8->Boot Menu)
available on newer motherboards.  There is probably no need in your case to use
a boot loader for OS selection.


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Kent West

Greg wrote:

My question is this, I want to use a boot loader
that will load either WinME or Debian.  Grub seems like the default
boot loader per the installation docs I've read.  During installation,
will Grub be smart enough to see WinMe on the other drive and will
itput the boot loader file on the main drive, the one that holds WinME?



In my experience, no.

However, after installation you can edit /boot/grub/menu.lst; in that 
file is an example stanza for loading Windows. It's probably suitable 
for you machine just as is; just remove the #'s in front of the four 
lines or so to enable this stanza, and you should be good to go.


--
Kent


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Re: Ready to join the club..

2005-10-21 Thread Matthew Lenz
yep you should be fine... just remember if you ever nuke your debian
install your bootloader will no longer work (or maybe its just that it
wont find its menu.lst file, can't remember as its been awhile since I
goofed up and did that) since thats where it stores the grub files (even
though grub will be initiated on the MBR of the primary drive)

-Matt

On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 12:02 -0700, Greg wrote:
> I'm a noob to Debian but I'm ready to install Debian to my current
> machine.  (PIII, 512MB Ram, 2 HDs; 60 MB - main and 80 MB secondary).
> The first HD contains WinME (don't laugh) and the second will contain
> Debian in one partition and Windows files (mp3s, JPEGs) in the other.
> I've already partitioned the second HD and burned the installation
> image files onto CDs.  My question is this, I want to use a boot loader
> that will load either WinME or Debian.  Grub seems like the default
> boot loader per the installation docs I've read.  During installation,
> will Grub be smart enough to see WinMe on the other drive and will
> itput the boot loader file on the main drive, the one that holds WinME?
> 
> I've sorted for this topic what wasn't able to find information on my
> setup.
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 


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