Re: Which file to initialize X? (was Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro)

[Filip]

Joel Roth  writes:

>
> I would be interested in having a summary. 
>
> For my purposes, I use startx, and 'man startx' tells me to
> put my initializations in .xinitrc, and does not refer
> to any other init files.
>
> I used to have an .xsession file, which eventually stopped
> working.
>
> 'man xsession' gives some other, more complicated advice.
> I guess it's time to start reading about this. :^)
>
> Regards,
>
> Joel
>
>
> -- 
> Joel Roth

When you run startx, it starts /etc/X11/xinitrc, which in turn start
/etc/X11/Xsession. /etc/X11/Xsession does the necesarry initializations
for your X session and it run the session scripts for the packages that
have installed so that these packages are also initialized properly. If
~/.xession exists it is also run.

Xsession is also started by the display manager, after you have logged
on. The display manager doesn't use xinitrc.

In some display managers, you also have a menu where you can select one
of the sessions from /usr/share/xsessions instead of the 'default'
xsession.  For example all desktop environments and most window managers
install a session file there, These are also started from
/etc/X11/Xsession.

If you create your own .xinitrc, all this is bypassed, and you are
completely responsable for setting up your X session. 

The .xsession file, on the other hand will give the the same environment
whether you use a display manager or start the X server with startx.


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Which file to initialize X? (was Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro)

[Joel Roth]

Brian wrote:
> On Wed 04 Jun 2014 at 23:56:37 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> 
> > Brian wrote:
> > 
> > > Those who use startx etc have some expectation of being provided with
> > > uncomplicated correct information.
> > 
> > The 'startx' is basically the "simple" way to start X and to use the
> > system supplied defaults.  Which is a good way to get things going for
> > the new person who doesn't know what they want or who are happy with
> > the defaults.  It isn't required though and after making a few
> > customizations I find it easier to just use 'xinit' directly and my
> > own full .xinitrc file with only my own choices made there.  (shrug)
> > 
> > > Being told to use ~/.Xdefaults isn't in that category. The sooner
> > > any mention of it or .xinitrc in Debian is stamped out the better.
> > 
> > I think use of .Xdefaults isn't as good as .Xresources.  But there
> > isn't anything wrong with .xinitrc.  What is your complaint about it?
> 
> In spite of my hyperbole it isn't .xinitrc in itself which is the cause
> of my discontent but its being presented as being equivalent to
> .xsession. It may or may not matter that the /etc/X11/Xsession.d files
> in are not used, but not appreciating that this could lead to a
> misconfigured or partially working system is one consequence of
> following advice which often does not apply to a Debian system. The
> Debian Reference gets it right and manages to do so without any mention
> of .xinitrc.

I would be interested in having a summary. 

For my purposes, I use startx, and 'man startx' tells me to
put my initializations in .xinitrc, and does not refer
to any other init files.

I used to have an .xsession file, which eventually stopped
working.

'man xsession' gives some other, more complicated advice.
I guess it's time to start reading about this. :^)

Regards,

Joel


-- 
Joel Roth
  


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Wed 04 Jun 2014 at 23:56:37 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:

> Brian wrote:
> 
> > Those who use startx etc have some expectation of being provided with
> > uncomplicated correct information.
> 
> The 'startx' is basically the "simple" way to start X and to use the
> system supplied defaults.  Which is a good way to get things going for
> the new person who doesn't know what they want or who are happy with
> the defaults.  It isn't required though and after making a few
> customizations I find it easier to just use 'xinit' directly and my
> own full .xinitrc file with only my own choices made there.  (shrug)
> 
> > Being told to use ~/.Xdefaults isn't in that category. The sooner
> > any mention of it or .xinitrc in Debian is stamped out the better.
> 
> I think use of .Xdefaults isn't as good as .Xresources.  But there
> isn't anything wrong with .xinitrc.  What is your complaint about it?

In spite of my hyperbole it isn't .xinitrc in itself which is the cause
of my discontent but its being presented as being equivalent to
.xsession. It may or may not matter that the /etc/X11/Xsession.d files
in are not used, but not appreciating that this could lead to a
misconfigured or partially working system is one consequence of
following advice which often does not apply to a Debian system. The
Debian Reference gets it right and manages to do so without any mention
of .xinitrc.


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 12:26:15 +0200
David Dušanić  wrote:


> I think at this point I link you to my fonts how-to for Debian
> (Openbox).
> 
> http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=196047#p196047

Very, very nice article. Very clearly written. I'm going to try this
tomorrow. Thanks so much.


> Eventually I switched completely to Infinality and love it. 
> 
> http://www.infinality.net/blog/ 

The machine I'm doing this on is Ubuntu, and infinality doesn't
install easily on it, so I'll use your Debian/Openbox howto.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Bob Proulx]

Brian wrote:
> The fact though is that most users do not avoid startx or a
> DM. Anyone who uses xinit has gone to some trouble to avoid either
> of these two ways of getting X running. You would expect them to
> know what they are doing.

But people using xinit have not gone to any trouble to avoid other
methods.  They just haven't installed xdm or another X display manager
such as lightdm or other.  Not installing something is not going to
any trouble.  However I know that installing them is so easy that it
isn't any trouble either way.  It is just a configuration decision and
choice.  After the GNOME gdm/gdm3 fiasco I stopped using those and
just log in the old way and start X the old way with xinit again now.
Which means I am using .xinitrc file again just like we all did before
xdm came along.  But in my .xinitrc I load up the .Xresources file so
do not use .Xdefaults.

I agree that anyone using xinit and .xinitrc will probably know what
they are doing.  :-)

> Those who use startx etc have some expectation of being provided with
> uncomplicated correct information.

The 'startx' is basically the "simple" way to start X and to use the
system supplied defaults.  Which is a good way to get things going for
the new person who doesn't know what they want or who are happy with
the defaults.  It isn't required though and after making a few
customizations I find it easier to just use 'xinit' directly and my
own full .xinitrc file with only my own choices made there.  (shrug)

> Being told to use ~/.Xdefaults isn't in that category. The sooner
> any mention of it or .xinitrc in Debian is stamped out the better.

I think use of .Xdefaults isn't as good as .Xresources.  But there
isn't anything wrong with .xinitrc.  What is your complaint about it?

> This has been going on for at least 10 years. If only the ~/.Xdefaults
> advocates would say why and how they use it - but they never do. X is
> versatile but nobody is going to go wrong by using ~/.Xresources.

I can only guess that they think it is simpler than using xrdb and an
.Xresources file.  But since xrdb and .Xresources were invented to
solve the problem of having $DISPLAY properties instead of $HOME
properties I have moved on from .Xdefaults to xrdb and .Xresources to
solve that problem.

> > I recommend using .Xresources loaded into the xrdb at start time.  It
> > makes the most general sense to me.  That way customizations are a
> > property of your $DISPLAY and not a property of your $HOME.  But
> > either works if you understand the search and merge order.
> 
> I think we are singing from the same hymn book but we are on different
> pages. :)

:-)

Bob


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Filip]

Bob Proulx  writes:
>
> I recommend using .Xresources loaded into the xrdb at start time.  It
> makes the most general sense to me.  That way customizations are a
> property of your $DISPLAY and not a property of your $HOME.  But
> either works if you understand the search and merge order.
>
> Bob

Yeah, I guess when you start X application that run on a remote machine,
it can get ugly really fast when you need to figure what resources will
actually be used if you rely on anything else than .Xresources.

Because, if I understand correctly, it will look for some resources in
files on the remote machine (for example if you set XENVIRONMENT on the
remote server), but for the .Xresources it will will use the values on
the local system.

So yeah, don't complicate your life more than is needed and stick to
.Xresources and xrdb.


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Tue 03 Jun 2014 at 13:45:14 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:

> > Debian doesn't use a .Xdefaults file.
> >
> >brian@desktop:~$ grep -r Xresources /etc/X11/
> >/etc/X11/Xsession:SYSRESOURCES=/etc/X11/Xresources
> >/etc/X11/Xsession:USRRESOURCES=$HOME/.Xresources
> 
> True.  But that is the default setting for 'startx'.  And for the
> other xdb graphical login managers.  The .Xdefaults file is still used
> if you avoid using 'startx'.  If you log in and simply use 'xinit'
> without the startx wrapper around it and *don't* use xrdb yourself in
> $HOME/.xinitrc then the $HOME/.Xdefaults is still consulted.  If you
> have ever used xrdb to load resources into memory then .Xdefaults is
> never consulted.  It is rather involved.

The quality of the information in this subthread is impressive. The
fact though is that most users do not avoid startx or a DM. Anyone who
uses xinit has gone to some trouble to avoid either of these two ways of
getting X running. You would expect them to know what they are doing.

Those who use startx etc have some expectation of being provided with
uncomplicated correct information. Being told to use ~/.Xdefaults isn't
in that category. The sooner any mention of it or .xinitrc in Debian is
stamped out the better.

This has been going on for at least 10 years. If only the ~/.Xdefaults
advocates would say why and how they use it - but they never do. X is
versatile but nobody is going to go wrong by using ~/.Xresources.

> I recommend using .Xresources loaded into the xrdb at start time.  It
> makes the most general sense to me.  That way customizations are a
> property of your $DISPLAY and not a property of your $HOME.  But
> either works if you understand the search and merge order.

I think we are singing from the same hymn book but we are on different
pages. :)


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Bob Proulx]

Brian wrote:
> Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > Brian wrote:
> > > I looked in the place that startx and the DMs look with a default
> > > install of X. Which is not to deny your valid point. However. a user
> > > would have to put in the extra effort to use .Xdefaults- or,
> > > if they know it is possible, a .Xresources directory. I'm of the opinion
> > > that for most use cases mentioning .Xdefaults causes confusion at the
> > > very least.
> > 
> > There's no extra effort to use .Xdefaults-: it's hardcoded
> > in libX11.

Actually all of .Xdefaults and .Xdefaults-$(hostname) and the
equivalent of .Xresources because it checks for "dpy->xdefaults == NULL"
are all hard coded in libx11.  And so all work in their own cases.

Previously written:
> Debian doesn't use a .Xdefaults file.
>
>brian@desktop:~$ grep -r Xresources /etc/X11/
>/etc/X11/Xsession:SYSRESOURCES=/etc/X11/Xresources
>/etc/X11/Xsession:USRRESOURCES=$HOME/.Xresources

True.  But that is the default setting for 'startx'.  And for the
other xdb graphical login managers.  The .Xdefaults file is still used
if you avoid using 'startx'.  If you log in and simply use 'xinit'
without the startx wrapper around it and *don't* use xrdb yourself in
$HOME/.xinitrc then the $HOME/.Xdefaults is still consulted.  If you
have ever used xrdb to load resources into memory then .Xdefaults is
never consulted.  It is rather involved.

> Fair enough. Now, if only users were advised to use .Xdefaults-
> or .Xresources. Instead the choice is always .Xdefaults or .Xresources.
> As I think we are agreed, one of these doesn't work. Ok, it can be made
> to work; for example I've seen linking .Xresources and .Xdefaults as a
> solution but have never quite grasped why .Xresource by itself is
> unsatisfactory.

Both work in different cases.  There are something like a half dozen
different locations that X resource data can be stored.  An X program
will look through each location in turn in priority order.  But if one
is shadowed by the other then one will appear not to work.

I posted on this topic before so instead of annoying the list with
a long posting I will simply point to the previous postings and
perhaps score them up in the search engines better.

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2005/09/msg01385.html

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2011/02/msg00395.html

This is what the code actually says now:

XrmInitialize();

/*
 * See lib/Xt/Initialize.c
 *
 * First, get the defaults from the server; if none, then load from
 * ~/.Xdefaults.  Next, if there is an XENVIRONMENT environment variable,
 * then load that file.
 */

if (dpy->xdefaults == NULL) {
const char *slashDotXdefaults = "/.Xdefaults";

(void) GetHomeDir (fname, PATH_MAX - strlen (slashDotXdefaults) - 1);
(void) strcat (fname, slashDotXdefaults);
xdb = XrmGetFileDatabase (fname);
} else {
xdb = XrmGetStringDatabase(dpy->xdefaults);
}

if (!(xenv = getenv ("XENVIRONMENT"))) {
const char *slashDotXdefaultsDash = "/.Xdefaults-";
int len;

(void) GetHomeDir (fname, PATH_MAX - strlen (slashDotXdefaultsDash) - 
1);
(void) strcat (fname, slashDotXdefaultsDash);
len = strlen (fname);
(void) _XGetHostname (fname+len, PATH_MAX-len);
xenv = fname;
}
userdb = XrmGetFileDatabase (xenv);
XrmMergeDatabases (userdb, &xdb);
return (xdb);

I recommend using .Xresources loaded into the xrdb at start time.  It
makes the most general sense to me.  That way customizations are a
property of your $DISPLAY and not a property of your $HOME.  But
either works if you understand the search and merge order.

Bob


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2014-06-02 18:33:30 +0100, Brian wrote:
> Fair enough. Now, if only users were advised to use .Xdefaults-
> or .Xresources. Instead the choice is always .Xdefaults or .Xresources.
> As I think we are agreed, one of these doesn't work. Ok, it can be made
> to work; for example I've seen linking .Xresources and .Xdefaults as a
> solution but have never quite grasped why .Xresource by itself is
> unsatisfactory.

The drawback with .Xresources is that it is taken into account only
at X startup time (or when the user runs xrdb).

But I prefer another solution: I have set $XAPPLRESDIR and
$XFILESEARCHPATH to $HOME/.app-defaults, copied /etc/X11/app-defaults
to $HOME/.app-defaults, and now use that. The advantage (for me) is
that the defaults from /etc/X11/app-defaults are no longer read, so
that it is easier to change them (without root access). Overriding
the defaults didn't always work because there are sometimes several
ways to express the same thing.

-- 
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100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Mon 02 Jun 2014 at 16:27:22 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> On 2014-06-02 14:11:03 +0100, Brian wrote:
> > I looked in the place that startx and the DMs look with a default
> > install of X. Which is not to deny your valid point. However. a user
> > would have to put in the extra effort to use .Xdefaults- or,
> > if they know it is possible, a .Xresources directory. I'm of the opinion
> > that for most use cases mentioning .Xdefaults causes confusion at the
> > very least.
> 
> There's no extra effort to use .Xdefaults-: it's hardcoded
> in libX11.

Fair enough. Now, if only users were advised to use .Xdefaults-
or .Xresources. Instead the choice is always .Xdefaults or .Xresources.
As I think we are agreed, one of these doesn't work. Ok, it can be made
to work; for example I've seen linking .Xresources and .Xdefaults as a
solution but have never quite grasped why .Xresource by itself is
unsatisfactory.


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2014-06-02 14:11:03 +0100, Brian wrote:
> I looked in the place that startx and the DMs look with a default
> install of X. Which is not to deny your valid point. However. a user
> would have to put in the extra effort to use .Xdefaults- or,
> if they know it is possible, a .Xresources directory. I'm of the opinion
> that for most use cases mentioning .Xdefaults causes confusion at the
> very least.

There's no extra effort to use .Xdefaults-: it's hardcoded
in libX11.

-- 
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100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Mon 02 Jun 2014 at 12:38:20 +0200, David Dušanić wrote:

> 01.06.2014, 19:21, "Brian" :
> > On Sun 01 Jun 2014 at 13:09:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> >>  On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:18:11 +0200
> >>  David Dušanić  wrote:
> >>>  I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this
> >>>  e.g.:
> >>>
> >>>  Xft.autohint: 0
> >>>  Xft.antialias: 1
> >>>  Xft.hinting: true
> >>>  Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
> >>>  Xft.dpi: 96
> >>>  Xft.rgba: rgb
> >>>  Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault
> >>  I added those to my ~/.Xdefaults, and whether I set Xft.dpi to 96, 48,
> >>  or 192, it always looked the same, so I doubt that these things are
> >>  being read or acted upon.
> >
> > Because Debian's X doesn't consult or read ~/.Xdefaults.
> 
> I use them with my WMs and it works unless I am missing something.
> Additionally I put my colors there for my terminals and whatnot. In
> any case I would then recommend to use .Xresources if this is the
> preferred method even though it makes no difference on the effect it
> has.

With startx and any of the DMs the files in /etc/X11/Xsession.d are
sourced through /etc/X11/Xsession. Xsession doesn't even look for a
~/.Xdefaults file. I'd suggest most installed Debian desktop systems
operate with this default, which I'd see as the way Debian is designed
to work rather than the "preferred method".

I'm not saying that it isn't possible to have ~/.Xdefaults consulted but
some extra effort would be needed. Presumably you have done this. What I
am saying is that anyone who puts a file named .Xdefaults in their home
directory and simply expects its contents to be acted on is due for a
disappointment.


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Mon 02 Jun 2014 at 10:04:29 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> On 2014-06-01 16:14:24 +0100, Brian wrote:
> > 
> > Debian doesn't use a .Xdefaults file.
> > 
> >brian@desktop:~$ grep -r Xresources /etc/X11/
> >/etc/X11/Xsession:SYSRESOURCES=/etc/X11/Xresources
> >/etc/X11/Xsession:USRRESOURCES=$HOME/.Xresources
> >grep: /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config: Permission denied
> 
> You're looking at the wrong place: the .Xdefaults file has never been
> a startup file. But it's now ".Xdefaults-". See X(7) man
> page:
> 
>   XENVIRONMENT
>   This must point to a file containing X resources. The default is
>   $HOME/.Xdefaults-.  Unlike  $HOME/.Xresources,  it  is
>   consulted each time an X application starts.
> 
> And you can check with strace that this file is read...
> 
> But I prefer to use the app-defaults.

I looked in the place that startx and the DMs look with a default
install of X. Which is not to deny your valid point. However. a user
would have to put in the extra effort to use .Xdefaults- or,
if they know it is possible, a .Xresources directory. I'm of the opinion
that for most use cases mentioning .Xdefaults causes confusion at the
very least.


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[David Dušanić]

01.06.2014, 19:21, "Brian" :
> On Sun 01 Jun 2014 at 13:09:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>>  On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:18:11 +0200
>>  David Dušanić  wrote:
>>>  I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this
>>>  e.g.:
>>>
>>>  Xft.autohint: 0
>>>  Xft.antialias: 1
>>>  Xft.hinting: true
>>>  Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
>>>  Xft.dpi: 96
>>>  Xft.rgba: rgb
>>>  Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault
>>  I added those to my ~/.Xdefaults, and whether I set Xft.dpi to 96, 48,
>>  or 192, it always looked the same, so I doubt that these things are
>>  being read or acted upon.
>
> Because Debian's X doesn't consult or read ~/.Xdefaults.

I use them with my WMs and it works unless I am missing something. Additionally 
I put my colors there for my terminals and whatnot. In any case I would then 
recommend to use .Xresources if this is the preferred method even though it 
makes no difference on the effect it has.  

-- 
David Dusanic


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[David Dušanić]

> You mention making an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in my home directory. Can
> I safely assume the slash meant either/or, rather than directory/file?
> I already had a .Xdefaults, but it was a config file, not a directory.

Yes, the slash meant either/or. Xdefaults is the older way of doing it, I still 
prefer it.

> Can I safely assume that if I change "Xft:dpi 96" to "Xft:dpi 48", my
> fonts are going to get noticibly bigger if this thing's working? That
> would be another test.

This line is for your dpi settings. On a laptop that is often 96 like in my 
case. I would try your real dpi settings here, not anything else because that 
can screw with the monitor. 
To test your dpi settings from the command line:

xdpyinfo | grep resolution

That will give you the value you need.

> Why did you set Xft:hintstyle to "hintlight" instead of "hintmassively"
> or whatever the hintiest setting could be?

I prefer it slight. Here you can test additionally with "hintfull" (very thin) 
and probably "hintmedium".

I think the Arch Wiki has a nice entry about it:

https://wiki.archlinux.de/title/Xdefaults

In any case you could also apply one thing more that was mentioned here to make 
fonts even better.
Making a .fonts.conf file in your home folder.

I think at this point I link you to my fonts how-to for Debian (Openbox).

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=196047#p196047

Eventually I switched completely to Infinality and love it. 

http://www.infinality.net/blog/ 

-- 
David Dusanic


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2014-06-01 16:14:24 +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 01 Jun 2014 at 10:48:17 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > You mention making an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in my home directory. Can
> > I safely assume the slash meant either/or, rather than directory/file?
> > I already had a .Xdefaults, but it was a config file, not a directory.
> > 
> > I added your lines to the end of my .Xdefaults, and it kinda sorta
> > seemed to make things better, but it was so subtle this could be a
> > placebo effect. So I'm thinking, if I could use settings that make my
> 
> Debian doesn't use a .Xdefaults file.
> 
>brian@desktop:~$ grep -r Xresources /etc/X11/
>/etc/X11/Xsession:SYSRESOURCES=/etc/X11/Xresources
>/etc/X11/Xsession:USRRESOURCES=$HOME/.Xresources
>grep: /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config: Permission denied

You're looking at the wrong place: the .Xdefaults file has never been
a startup file. But it's now ".Xdefaults-". See X(7) man
page:

  XENVIRONMENT
  This must point to a file containing X resources. The default is
  $HOME/.Xdefaults-.  Unlike  $HOME/.Xresources,  it  is
  consulted each time an X application starts.

And you can check with strace that this file is read...

But I prefer to use the app-defaults.

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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Sun 01 Jun 2014 at 13:09:11 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:18:11 +0200
> David Dušanić  wrote:
> > 
> > I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this
> > e.g.:
> > 
> > Xft.autohint: 0
> > Xft.antialias: 1
> > Xft.hinting: true
> > Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
> > Xft.dpi: 96
> > Xft.rgba: rgb
> > Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault
> 
> I added those to my ~/.Xdefaults, and whether I set Xft.dpi to 96, 48,
> or 192, it always looked the same, so I doubt that these things are
> being read or acted upon.

Because Debian's X doesn't consult or read ~/.Xdefaults.


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Filip]

On Sun, 1 Jun 2014 13:09:11 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:18:11 +0200
> David Dušanić  wrote:
> 
> > 31.05.2014, 18:59, "Steve Litt" :
> > > On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> > > Tony Baldwin  wrote:
> > >>  Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
> > >>  manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a
> > >> panel, which I think JWM has by default.
> > >
> > > You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've
> > > switched over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one
> > > thing: the fonts look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have
> > > very bad vision, so this isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed
> > > at which I work. Do you know of a way to make fonts on Openbox
> > > look like the ones on Xfce?
> > 
> > I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this
> > e.g.:
> > 
> > Xft.autohint: 0
> > Xft.antialias: 1
> > Xft.hinting: true
> > Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
> > Xft.dpi: 96
> > Xft.rgba: rgb
> > Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault
> 
> I added those to my ~/.Xdefaults, and whether I set Xft.dpi to 96, 48,
> or 192, it always looked the same, so I doubt that these things are
> being read or acted upon.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
> 
> 

It should be ~/.Xresources

You can check if they are read with

$ xrdb -query

or load them manually with

$ xrdb -merge <~/.Xresources


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:18:11 +0200
David Dušanić  wrote:

> 31.05.2014, 18:59, "Steve Litt" :
> > On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> > Tony Baldwin  wrote:
> >>  Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
> >>  manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a
> >> panel, which I think JWM has by default.
> >
> > You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've
> > switched over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one
> > thing: the fonts look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very
> > bad vision, so this isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which
> > I work. Do you know of a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the
> > ones on Xfce?
> 
> I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this
> e.g.:
> 
> Xft.autohint: 0
> Xft.antialias: 1
> Xft.hinting: true
> Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
> Xft.dpi: 96
> Xft.rgba: rgb
> Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault

I added those to my ~/.Xdefaults, and whether I set Xft.dpi to 96, 48,
or 192, it always looked the same, so I doubt that these things are
being read or acted upon.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Brian]

On Sun 01 Jun 2014 at 10:48:17 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

> You mention making an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in my home directory. Can
> I safely assume the slash meant either/or, rather than directory/file?
> I already had a .Xdefaults, but it was a config file, not a directory.
> 
> I added your lines to the end of my .Xdefaults, and it kinda sorta
> seemed to make things better, but it was so subtle this could be a
> placebo effect. So I'm thinking, if I could use settings that make my

Debian doesn't use a .Xdefaults file.

   brian@desktop:~$ grep -r Xresources /etc/X11/
   /etc/X11/Xsession:SYSRESOURCES=/etc/X11/Xresources
   /etc/X11/Xsession:USRRESOURCES=$HOME/.Xresources
   grep: /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config: Permission denied


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 1 Jun 2014 07:54:50 -0400
Pete Orrall  wrote:

> On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Steve Litt
>  wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> > Tony Baldwin  wrote:
> >
> >> Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
> >> manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a
> >> panel, which I think JWM has by default.
> >
> > You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've
> > switched over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one
> > thing: the fonts look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very
> > bad vision, so this isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which
> > I work. Do you know of a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the
> > ones on Xfce?
> 
> Install the obconf package if you haven't already.  It's an easy to
> use preference manager for Openbox.  You can adjust fonts and sizes
> there, along with themes and other stuff without needing to edit
> config files.
> 
> # apt-get install obconf
> 
> Hope this helps!

Thanks for reminding me of Obconf, Pete!

It turns out whenever you install Openbox, Obconf comes along for the
ride. But I'm always forgetting to use it because you can't edit
hotkeys with Obconf, and hotkeys are my life, so I'm forever Vimming
~/.config/openbox/rc.xml. However, in this case, the things Obconf can
do, making fonts bigger and the like, turns out to be an attack on the
symptom rather than the root cause, because the real problem appears
(to my bad eyes) to be slight pixelization on the same fonts that look
great in Xfce.

However, for other things, I'm going to use Obconf early and often.


Thanks for helping me with this. If I can get the fonts looking good,
I'll probably go Openbox fulltime. It's snappy, and a keyboarder's
dream.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 13:18:11 +0200
David Dušanić  wrote:

> 31.05.2014, 18:59, "Steve Litt" :
> > On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> > Tony Baldwin  wrote:
> >>  Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
> >>  manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a
> >> panel, which I think JWM has by default.
> >
> > You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've
> > switched over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one
> > thing: the fonts look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very
> > bad vision, so this isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which
> > I work. Do you know of a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the
> > ones on Xfce?
> 
> I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this
> e.g.:
> 
> Xft.autohint: 0
> Xft.antialias: 1
> Xft.hinting: true
> Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
> Xft.dpi: 96
> Xft.rgba: rgb
> Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault
> 
> or install lxappearance to adjust fonts.  

Hi David,

Before I start asking a multitude of questions, thanks very much for
this information.

You mention making an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in my home directory. Can
I safely assume the slash meant either/or, rather than directory/file?
I already had a .Xdefaults, but it was a config file, not a directory.

I added your lines to the end of my .Xdefaults, and it kinda sorta
seemed to make things better, but it was so subtle this could be a
placebo effect. So I'm thinking, if I could use settings that make my
fonts look like ugly, unmitigated garbage, then at least I know that
changing these values is doing something. Once I know that, I can
experiment to get the very best look. What could I do to the lines you
quote to make my fonts look very ugly, as a test?

Can I safely assume that if I change "Xft:dpi 96" to "Xft:dpi 48", my
fonts are going to get noticibly bigger if this thing's working? That
would be another test.

Why did you set Xft:hintstyle to "hintlight" instead of "hintmassively"
or whatever the hintiest setting could be?

Can you think of any Xft settings I could make to make my letters look
bolder, without using a bold font? My main concern is that the letters
are thin and reedy.

By the way, for the purposes of Openbox on my machine, lxappearance
doesn't work because whatever you set it to isn't persistent. That's
OK, I'd rather have something I could input from Vim anyway.

Thanks so much for the information,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Pete Orrall]

On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> Tony Baldwin  wrote:
>
>> Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
>> manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a panel,
>> which I think JWM has by default.
>
> You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've switched
> over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one thing: the fonts
> look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very bad vision, so this
> isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which I work. Do you know of
> a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the ones on Xfce?

Install the obconf package if you haven't already.  It's an easy to
use preference manager for Openbox.  You can adjust fonts and sizes
there, along with themes and other stuff without needing to edit
config files.

# apt-get install obconf

Hope this helps!

-- 
Pete Orrall
p...@cs1x.com
www.peteorrall.com
"If there isn't a way, I'll make one."


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[David Dušanić]

31.05.2014, 18:59, "Steve Litt" :
> On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> Tony Baldwin  wrote:
>>  Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
>>  manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a panel,
>>  which I think JWM has by default.
>
> You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've switched
> over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one thing: the fonts
> look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very bad vision, so this
> isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which I work. Do you know of
> a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the ones on Xfce?

I would make an .Xdefaults/.Xresources in your home folder with this e.g.:

Xft.autohint: 0
Xft.antialias: 1
Xft.hinting: true
Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
Xft.dpi: 96
Xft.rgba: rgb
Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault

or install lxappearance to adjust fonts.  
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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Tony Baldwin]

On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 12:59:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> Tony Baldwin  wrote:
> 
> > Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
> > manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a panel,
> > which I think JWM has by default. 
> 
> You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've switched
> over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one thing: the fonts
> look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very bad vision, so this
> isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which I work. Do you know of
> a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the ones on Xfce?

I don't see a difference, although Openbox does manage fonts differently
to my knowledge.
They should be anti-aliased and all that.
You can select default fonts and stuff in the rc.xml file or with obconf 
(graphical openbox configuration tool). You can choose the font, set size, etc.
Maybe take a look at this thread on the #! forum:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=176320
(Crunchbang, #!, is a little distro that is basically Debian with Openbox as 
default WM).

> 
> Now, about Sawfish...
> 
> I just tried Sawfish last night, and was unable to get past the black
> screen. Left click, right click, middle click did nothing. I tried
> various keys, they did nothing. I think once I can configure the thing
> with hotkeys, I can own it, but I can't even get that far. How do you
> begin operating Sawfish?

Hmmmmiddle click should give you a menu, at least, 
from which you should be able to find the keybindings configuration tool 
and see the default bindings.
I haven't used it in a good long while, and don't currently have it installed.
Find documentation on their wiki: http://sawfish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

tony
-- 
https://tonybaldwin.info
all tony, all day long...


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Re: Sawfish and Openbox: was fastest linux distro

[Filip]

On Sat, 31 May 2014 12:59:06 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sat, 31 May 2014 08:51:13 -0400
> Tony Baldwin  wrote:
> 
> > Sawfish and openbox, even metacity would fit in this last "just
> > manages windows" category, and, in fact, don't even include a panel,
> > which I think JWM has by default. 
> 
> You're just the person I need to talk to, Tony. Right now I've
> switched over from Xfce to Openbox, and like it. Except for one
> thing: the fonts look a whole lot worse on Openbox, and I have very
> bad vision, so this isn't aesthetics: It affects the speed at which I
> work. Do you know of a way to make fonts on Openbox look like the
> ones on Xfce?
> 


See here:
https://lists.debian.org/20140515211401.2c51f...@orac.fil


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