Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-14 Thread D-Man 
On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 03:56:17PM +0200, Carel Fellinger wrote:
| On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 09:22:44PM -0500, will trillich wrote:
| > On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:01:39PM -0400, D-Man wrote:
| ...
| > > folder-hook . set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} 
%-15.15F(%4l) %s"
| 
| I think this should read:
| 
|   folder-hook . 'set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} 
%-15.15F(%4l) \%s"'
| 
| folder hook expects one command, you need a compound command, so group
| them with single quotes.

I should try that.  Maybe that line isn't really setting index_format
at all so I don't see the errors Will is seeing.  It could be that my
later folder-hooks are masking that.

| > when i try setting index_format in ~/.muttrc i get
| > %Z: unknown variable
| > so i tried %S instead of %Z:
| > %S: unknown variable
| > i ditched %Z and %S altogether, and got
| > %{%b: unknown variable
| > aaugh!
| 
| And what is it that you are trying?  Will, you should know to get good
| response here, you need to include as much info as you can, the error
| codes, but also exactly what you are doing:]

Yeah, I found that some parts of the string were a bit picky wrt
spelling (like, extra spaces and stuff).  Maybe your line is just
slightly different than mine.  I think we are using the same version.

Anyways, the manual is available online at www.mutt.org, and can be
downloaded (IIRC) for off-line use too.

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-14 Thread Wayne Topa 

Subject: Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...
Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 09:22:44PM -0500

In reply to:will trillich

Quoting will trillich([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:01:39PM -0400, D-Man wrote:
> > Here's what I do (lots of
> > irrelevant options snipped):
> > 
> > --
> > # work-around broken mailing list software
> > set ignore_list_reply_to = yes
> > 
> > set forward_format = "FW: %s"
> > 
> > # default action (index_format is default, except it displays "From" 
> > instead)
> > folder-hook . set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) 
> > %s"
> > 
> > # sorting for inbox
> > folder-hook "!" set sort=date-received
> > 
> > # display To, not From, in Sent folder
> > #folder-hook Sent set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) %s"
> > 
> > # sorting for lists 
> > # display the author's real name, not the list (or my name!) in index view
> > folder-hook lists.* set sort=threads ; set sort_aux=date ;  \
> > set index_format="%4C %Z %{%b%d} %-15.15n(%4l,%3M) %s%| "
> > --
> 
> when i try setting index_format in ~/.muttrc i get
>   %Z: unknown variable
> so i tried %S instead of %Z:
>   %S: unknown variable
> i ditched %Z and %S altogether, and got
>   %{%b: unknown variable
> aaugh!
> 
> and mutt only shows message number in the index (%4C apparently
> parses correctly, but that's about all)...
> 
> who's got the pointer?

Quick source finder.  Add the next line to your muttrc
macro   index   '!zless /usr/doc/mutt/manual.txt.gz'

Now the answer is an 'F1' away, while in mutt, that is.
-- 
Don't compute and drive; the life you save may be your own.
___

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-14 Thread Carel Fellinger 
On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 09:22:44PM -0500, will trillich wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:01:39PM -0400, D-Man wrote:
...
> > folder-hook . set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) 
> > %s"

I think this should read:

  folder-hook . 'set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) 
\%s"'

folder hook expects one command, you need a compound command, so group
them with single quotes.

> when i try setting index_format in ~/.muttrc i get
>   %Z: unknown variable
> so i tried %S instead of %Z:
>   %S: unknown variable
> i ditched %Z and %S altogether, and got
>   %{%b: unknown variable
> aaugh!

And what is it that you are trying?  Will, you should know to get good
response here, you need to include as much info as you can, the error
codes, but also exactly what you are doing:]

-- 
groetjes, carel

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-13 Thread will trillich 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:01:39PM -0400, D-Man wrote:
> Here's what I do (lots of
> irrelevant options snipped):
> 
> --
> # work-around broken mailing list software
> set ignore_list_reply_to = yes
> 
> set forward_format = "FW: %s"
> 
> # default action (index_format is default, except it displays "From" instead)
> folder-hook . set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) 
> %s"
> 
> # sorting for inbox
> folder-hook "!" set sort=date-received
> 
> # display To, not From, in Sent folder
> #folder-hook Sent set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) %s"
> 
> # sorting for lists 
> # display the author's real name, not the list (or my name!) in index view
> folder-hook lists.* set sort=threads ; set sort_aux=date ;  \
>   set index_format="%4C %Z %{%b%d} %-15.15n(%4l,%3M) %s%| "
> --

when i try setting index_format in ~/.muttrc i get
%Z: unknown variable
so i tried %S instead of %Z:
%S: unknown variable
i ditched %Z and %S altogether, and got
%{%b: unknown variable
aaugh!

and mutt only shows message number in the index (%4C apparently
parses correctly, but that's about all)...

who's got the pointer?

-- 
DEBIAN NEWBIE TIP #2 from Will Trillich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
:
Confused about using "apt-get" to keep your Debian UP-TO-DATE?
See http://newbieDoc.sourceForge.net/system/apt-get-intro.html

Also see http://newbieDoc.sourceForge.net/ ...

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-13 Thread D-Man 
On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 09:16:50AM -0500, Dave Sherohman wrote:
| On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:01:39PM -0400, D-Man wrote:
| > On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:42:33PM -0500, Dave Sherohman wrote:
| > | Or, better, just tell it that debian-user is a list.  Maybe I'm just
| > | doing something wrong, but whenever I add a "subscribe " to my
| > | .muttrc, the to/from column shows "To " for all list
| > | messages.  If I use "lists ", it does the Right Thing and shows
| > | the sender's name.
| > | 
| > | Of course, if anyone could tell me what I've done wrong...
| > 
| > What you did wrong was leave mutt with the default settings ;-).  I
| > suppose it's useful if you don't have procmail to tell you already
| > which list the message came from.  Here's what I do (lots of
| > irrelevant options snipped):
| 
| You missed a few.  Unless mutt is far stranger than I think, handling
| of reply-to on lists, forward formats, and sort orders have nothing
| at all to do with whether sender or recipient addresses are
| displayed.  The index format seems to be the only thing actually
| relevant.

You're right, the index format was the (one) thing you were looking
for, but I included the rest of those options because I find them
useful and, somewhat, related (and someone may not have been aware of
those capabilities).

| Thanks, though, for pointing me at the right part of TFM to R!

You're welcome.  Actually, now that I think of it, someone posted an
index format a while back that shows either the length of the message
_or_ the number of messages in the thread if the thread is collapsed.
That would use less screen real estate than my (current) format that
shows the length of the first message _and_ the thread length if it is
collapsed.  I've been meaning to copy it so I can have longer subject
lines, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-13 Thread Dave Sherohman 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:01:39PM -0400, D-Man wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:42:33PM -0500, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> | Or, better, just tell it that debian-user is a list.  Maybe I'm just
> | doing something wrong, but whenever I add a "subscribe " to my
> | .muttrc, the to/from column shows "To " for all list
> | messages.  If I use "lists ", it does the Right Thing and shows
> | the sender's name.
> | 
> | Of course, if anyone could tell me what I've done wrong...
> 
> What you did wrong was leave mutt with the default settings ;-).  I
> suppose it's useful if you don't have procmail to tell you already
> which list the message came from.  Here's what I do (lots of
> irrelevant options snipped):

You missed a few.  Unless mutt is far stranger than I think, handling
of reply-to on lists, forward formats, and sort orders have nothing
at all to do with whether sender or recipient addresses are
displayed.  The index format seems to be the only thing actually
relevant.

Thanks, though, for pointing me at the right part of TFM to R!

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread D-Man 
On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 01:00:25AM +0200, Martin F. Krafft wrote:
| also sprach Hall Stevenson (on Thu, 12 Jul 2001 03:16:30PM -0400):
| > If you use mutt to read your mail, tell it that you subscribe
| > to "debian-user" mailing list. Then, when you want to reply to
| > a message and have it go *only* to the list, hit the letter
| > "L" (or is it lower-case "l" ??) instead of "R" or "r".
| 
| but that makes all messages appear as "To debian user" in mutt's
| index. they are already procmail'ed all into a single folder, so i
| want to see author names rather than destinations...

This is only with the default format string.  See this snippet from my
.muttrc (and the earlier post in this thread with it) :


---

# Folder hooks :

# default action (index_format is default, except it displays "From" instead)
folder-hook . set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) %s"

# sorting for inbox
folder-hook "!" set sort=date-received

# display To, not From, in Sent folder
#folder-hook Sent set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) %s"

# sorting for lists 
# display the author's real name, not the list (or my name!) in index view
folder-hook lists.* set sort=threads ; set sort_aux=date ;  \
set index_format="%4C %Z %{%b%d} %-15.15n(%4l,%3M) %s%| "

#


---

| > Mutt also has a "G" or "g" function for "groups" but I don't
| > use it.
| 
| i'll look into it.

"g" is group-reply (aka "Reply To All"), "G" is "download POP
messages"

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Martin F. Krafft 
also sprach Hall Stevenson (on Thu, 12 Jul 2001 03:16:30PM -0400):
> If you use mutt to read your mail, tell it that you subscribe
> to "debian-user" mailing list. Then, when you want to reply to
> a message and have it go *only* to the list, hit the letter
> "L" (or is it lower-case "l" ??) instead of "R" or "r".

but that makes all messages appear as "To debian user" in mutt's
index. they are already procmail'ed all into a single folder, so i
want to see author names rather than destinations...

> Mutt also has a "G" or "g" function for "groups" but I don't
> use it.

i'll look into it.

martin;  (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
  \ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:"; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- 
i am willing to make the mistakes
if someone else is willing to learn from them.


pgpZkCNeuwKun.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread D-Man 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:42:33PM -0500, Dave Sherohman wrote:
| On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:16:30PM -0400, Hall Stevenson wrote:
| > If you use mutt to read your mail, tell it that you subscribe
| > to "debian-user" mailing list.
| 
| Or, better, just tell it that debian-user is a list.  Maybe I'm just
| doing something wrong, but whenever I add a "subscribe " to my
| .muttrc, the to/from column shows "To " for all list
| messages.  If I use "lists ", it does the Right Thing and shows
| the sender's name.
| 
| Of course, if anyone could tell me what I've done wrong...

What you did wrong was leave mutt with the default settings ;-).  I
suppose it's useful if you don't have procmail to tell you already
which list the message came from.  Here's what I do (lots of
irrelevant options snipped):

--
# work-around broken mailing list software
set ignore_list_reply_to = yes

set forward_format = "FW: %s"

# default action (index_format is default, except it displays "From" instead)
folder-hook . set sort=date ; set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) %s"

# sorting for inbox
folder-hook "!" set sort=date-received

# display To, not From, in Sent folder
#folder-hook Sent set index_format="%4C %Z%{%b%d} %-15.15F(%4l) %s"

# sorting for lists 
# display the author's real name, not the list (or my name!) in index view
folder-hook lists.* set sort=threads ; set sort_aux=date ;  \
set index_format="%4C %Z %{%b%d} %-15.15n(%4l,%3M) %s%| "
--


The other difference bewteen "lists" and "subscribe" is that with
subscribe your address is left out of the Mail-Followup-To: header so
you don't get a double-copy.  With "lists" mutt thinks you are not
subscribed to the list so it adds your address you get a "double"
copy, which is really the only copy you get because you aren't
subscribed.

| Great feature, isn't it?

Definitely :-).

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Petr \[Dingo\] Dvorak 
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, User zos wrote:

Uz> Since debian offers so many lists to look at and to subscribe to, why not
Uz> have the name of the list appear in the subject automatically? For
Uz> instance this list would be:
Uz> 
Uz> [Deb-User] Subject

use procmail to filter your mail ..
 
Uz> Also since everyone here finds it in good taste to keep all replies
Uz> directed to the list (so we can all benefit) why not add a simple
Uz> reply-to: line?
Uz> 
Uz> reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org


then add this in ~/.procmailrc

PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
MAILDIR=$HOME/mail
LOGFILE=$HOME/mail/procmail.log

:0
* ^X-Mailing-List:.*debian-user
{
:0 fh
| formail -i "Reply-To: Debian-User "

:0
DEBIAN.user
}

first it mangles the reply-to field and then it saves the email in
~/mail/DEBIAN.user

this can be done with any mailing list as long the list has atleast one part of
the message header constant in all the messages. well you get the idea ...

Uz> That way you can just autmatically reply to the list and not have to
Uz> change your To: and CC: headers EVERY SINGLE TIME. You can also reply to
Uz> all and then if you intend the original sender to get a copy, they would
Uz> recieve one too.
Uz> 
Uz> Most of the lists I use utilize this format and it makes the most sense to
Uz> me. I just wonder why debian's lists are so raw and unformatted in these
Uz> ways. I think it would make a lot of people's lives easier. Well mine at
Uz> least in any case. :)

about 2 years back i was wondering why there is no [debian-user] or something
similar prepended to the subject, someone here shown me the procmail way ;)

now i wouldn't have it any other way, some ppl add that to their subject them
selves, but that gets annoying for some of the rest of the readers because
their replies break the threads in their favorite mail progs.


Dingo.


  ).|.(
'.'___'.'
   ' '(>~<)' '
   -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-ooO-=(_)=-Ooo-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Petr [Dingo] Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Coder - Purple Dragon MUD   pdragon.org port 
   -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-[ 369D93 ]=-=-
 Debian version 2.2.18pre21, up 5 days, 16 users, load average: 1.02
   -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Dave Sherohman 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:16:30PM -0400, Hall Stevenson wrote:
> If you use mutt to read your mail, tell it that you subscribe
> to "debian-user" mailing list.

Or, better, just tell it that debian-user is a list.  Maybe I'm just
doing something wrong, but whenever I add a "subscribe " to my
.muttrc, the to/from column shows "To " for all list
messages.  If I use "lists ", it does the Right Thing and shows
the sender's name.

Of course, if anyone could tell me what I've done wrong...

> Then, when you want to reply to
> a message and have it go *only* to the list, hit the letter
> "L" (or is it lower-case "l" ??) instead of "R" or "r".

"L" is uppercase, just like you initially thought.  Great feature,
isn't it?

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread User zos 
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Peter S Galbraith wrote:

> 1- Because you lose valuable screen space
> 2- Because you can sort messages into separate folders anyway
>(e.g. procmail)

> They are generally considered bad.  In other mailing list that do
> this, I have mistakenly sent personal replies to the list because
> of this.

All good points. Just a difference of viewpoint I guess, and well, I'm
just lazy too. :)

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread User zos 
I'm sorry. I guess this has all been discussed before. Don't mean to bring
it up again. I was just thinking about it, that's all. :P

On Thu, 12 Jul 2001, Miquel van Smoorenburg wrote:

> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> User zos  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Since debian offers so many lists to look at and to subscribe to, why not
> >have the name of the list appear in the subject automatically? For
> >instance this list would be:
> >
> >[Deb-User] Subject
> 
> Not again ..
> 
> Mike.
> -- 
> "dselect has a user interface which scares small children"
>   -- Theodore Tso, on debian-devel
> 
> 
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread D-Man 

[ I missed this one the first time. ]

| User zos wrote:
|
| Also since everyone here finds it in good taste to keep all replies
| directed to the list (so we can all benefit) why not add a simple
| reply-to: line?
|  
| reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org

Don't make this mistake.  Instead read
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and then read up on how
to configure your mail system to operate nicely in the presence of
mailing lists.  (Please ask on the list if you have any questions or
difficulty configuring your system.  This is what we are here for!)

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread D-Man 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:16:30PM -0400, Hall Stevenson wrote:
| Mutt also has a "G" or "g" function for "groups" but I don't
| use it.

FYI, "g" stands for group-reply, which is called "Reply To All" in
some other MUAs.

"G" is used to retrieve mail from a POP3 server.

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Colin Watson 
User zos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Since debian offers so many lists to look at and to subscribe to, why not
>have the name of the list appear in the subject automatically? For
>instance this list would be:
>
>[Deb-User] Subject

God, please no, there's little enough space in the subject line as
displayed on screens as it is. Filter by the X-Mailing-List: header into
separate mailboxes; this is quite easy with either procmail or exim
filters. In the devscripts package there are even examples that you can
copy.

>Also since everyone here finds it in good taste to keep all replies
>directed to the list (so we can all benefit) why not add a simple
>reply-to: line?
>
>reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org

Do a web search for "List reply-to considered harmful", or something
along those lines.

>That way you can just autmatically reply to the list and not have to
>change your To: and CC: headers EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Fix your mailer :) mutt offers a reply-to-list function.

Cheers,

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Alan Shutko 
User zos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> [Deb-User] Subject

[...and...]

> That way you can just autmatically reply to the list and not have to
> change your To: and CC: headers EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Both of these are controversial, and annoy people (whether they're
there or not).  

You can certainly use procmail to munge subjects, and your mailer
should be configurable enough to adjust the To and CC headers without
a reply-to.  Mine is, at least.

But hey, if you convince enough people, go for it.  My mail setup is
flexible enough to cope with whatever damage is done.  8^)

-- 
Alan Shutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - In a variety of flavors!
Marriage is a romance in which the hero dies in the first chapter.

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread D-Man 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:30:18PM -0400, User zos wrote:
[ suggestion to put list name in subject ]

I'm on some lists that do this and some that don't.  I've found that
when my filters work I like it better when the list doesn't because it
keeps the subject shorter so it may actually fit on my screen (a lot
of subjects are truncated do to limited terminal width).  When a
message wanders on over to my inbox instead, I find that knowing which
list the message belongs to is nice, but that can be found in the
X-Mailing-List: or the To: or Cc: headers so it's really not a big
deal to me.  

This is just my opinion and experience with this, not the start of a
flame war (I hope :-)).

-D

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Peter S Galbraith 

User zos wrote:

> Since debian offers so many lists to look at and to subscribe to, why not
> have the name of the list appear in the subject automatically? For
> instance this list would be:
> 
> [Deb-User] Subject

1- Because you lose valuable screen space
2- Because you can sort messages into separate folders anyway
   (e.g. procmail)

> Also since everyone here finds it in good taste to keep all replies
> directed to the list (so we can all benefit) why not add a simple
> reply-to: line?
> 
> reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org

They are generally considered bad.  In other mailing list that do
this, I have mistakenly sent personal replies to the list because
of this.

Peter

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Hall Stevenson 
> reply-to: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> That way you can just autmatically reply to the list
> and not have to change your To: and CC: headers
> EVERY SINGLE TIME. You can also reply to all
> and then if you intend the original sender to get a
> copy, they would recieve one too.

If you use mutt to read your mail, tell it that you subscribe
to "debian-user" mailing list. Then, when you want to reply to
a message and have it go *only* to the list, hit the letter
"L" (or is it lower-case "l" ??) instead of "R" or "r".

Mutt also has a "G" or "g" function for "groups" but I don't
use it.

Hall

Re: The format (or lack thereof) of the list...

2001-07-12 Thread Miquel van Smoorenburg 
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
User zos  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Since debian offers so many lists to look at and to subscribe to, why not
>have the name of the list appear in the subject automatically? For
>instance this list would be:
>
>[Deb-User] Subject

Not again ..

Mike.
-- 
"dselect has a user interface which scares small children"
-- Theodore Tso, on debian-devel