Re: Thinking about using Debian
Nate Bargmann wrote: I would heartily recommend Xubuntu. Why? The GUI is fairly easy to understand coming from Windows land even if the task bar is along the top by default. The GUI does what it is supposed to do and it does it quite well. The Xubuntu desktop GUI is XFCE and XFCE is available in Debian too. :-) Also, while this may be somewhat of a heresy on Debian User, Xubuntu will likely come with the drivers needed for your hardware or offer to install the manufacturer supplied ones (I've not found a need for those). It isn't heresy. But Ubuntu and Debian have different goals and priorities. Debian as an organization has decided only to include free(dom) software in the distribution and therefore does not include the nonfree drivers that Ubuntu includes. If those drivers were licensed with a free(dom) license then Debian would include them too. It is a political philosophy thing. However within each organization it isn't a single mind. There are some who want to do one thing and others who want to do a different thing. Debian's GR says no nonfree software and so as an organization it does not. But there are many who would like to include it in order that users don't feel any pain from needing nonfree parts. Do you sell a little bit of your soul to make it easy? Or do you stick to your principles and stay pure? Hard questions with no easy answers. The installer is first rate plus it doubles as a live CD. I think the current Debian (keyboard) installer is first rate. But as I understand it the Wheezy installer will release using the (mouse) graphical installer as the default installer. Which as far as I can see is very similar to the Ubuntu (mouse) graphical installer. Which I don't like. Fortunately the keyboard installer remains available in both. Since you like the Ubuntu graphical installer you should try the Debian graphical installer. I think you will find them very similar to each other. Firefox and Thunderbird are included and updated regularly. That is a very valid point. The mozilla.debian.net folks do a great job but I wish it were included in the main repository. That this needs to be enabled separately is less than newbie friendly. Even though it is very easy to use after you have done it. I wish Debian would put Internet facing software such as Firefox and Chromium and so forth that by external policy cannot remain stable into the volatile (stable-updates) category and have a continuously usable upgrade track for those specific components. Perhaps one day they will. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thinking about using Debian
Bob writes: It is a political philosophy thing. Debian's policy that everything in Main must be freely redistributable and modifiable is one of the things that makes derivative distributions such as Ubuntu possible. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wqttopjg@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Thinking about using Debian
* On 2013 27 Feb 02:55 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: The Xubuntu desktop GUI is XFCE and XFCE is available in Debian too. :-) I know, as my main desktop and this laptop both run Sid with XFCE. It isn't heresy. But Ubuntu and Debian have different goals and priorities. Debian as an organization has decided only to include free(dom) software in the distribution and therefore does not include the nonfree drivers that Ubuntu includes. If those drivers were licensed with a free(dom) license then Debian would include them too. It is a political philosophy thing. I do enable the non-free repository. Why? It's not because I'm particularly fond of the idea but I do want a functional system. On the previous laptop with an Atheros chipset, non-free was not needed for WiFi, but on this T-410 non-free is needed for the Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6200. No WiFi is a no-go in my world. I also enable it as I need access to the GNU GFDL documentation that has been placed there as I need to work from the Debian specific versions of the documentation since as of right now, even on Sid, various tools lag the latest GNU releases. The online GNU docs, being newer, don't reflect the true capabilities of the tools I'm using. Of course, I could download the relevant GNU source tarballs and build the documentation locally. Then whose philosophy am I adhering to, Debian's or GNU's? ;-) However within each organization it isn't a single mind. There are some who want to do one thing and others who want to do a different thing. Debian's GR says no nonfree software and so as an organization it does not. But there are many who would like to include it in order that users don't feel any pain from needing nonfree parts. And I appreciate that Debian has recognized the need for pragmatism while striving for as broad of a freedom base as possible. Do you sell a little bit of your soul to make it easy? Or do you stick to your principles and stay pure? Hard questions with no easy answers. As my initials are not RMS, I can live with some pragmatism even though I advocate, prefer, write, and release Free Software. Also, avoiding the non-free section is not a panacea. As noted above, certain GFDL documentation is there which GNU/FSF clearly advocate as Free Software. I think the current Debian (keyboard) installer is first rate. But as I understand it the Wheezy installer will release using the (mouse) graphical installer as the default installer. Which as far as I can see is very similar to the Ubuntu (mouse) graphical installer. Which I don't like. Fortunately the keyboard installer remains available in both. I installed Wheezy on this laptop using the GUI installer and it worked fine. I have no argument against it and my praise for the Xubuntu installer is not a slight against Debian's or anyone else's for that matter. I will suggest that disk partitioning may be more intuitive on the Xubuntu installer than with Debian's GUI. Disk partitioning, except on a fresh drive, is always a know what you're doing endeavor, but I've been doing it since my first Slackware 3.0 install in 1996 (replaced a short time later by Slack '96) and have a pretty good track record, or have been lucky! :-D Since you like the Ubuntu graphical installer you should try the Debian graphical installer. I think you will find them very similar to each other. Remember, the OP has a decided negative view of Linux and distributions so I was merely offering something that has a high percentage of Libre while offering enough pragmatism to get him going with a high probability of success on the first try. Of course my message left you without any indication that I am familiar with both installers. That is a very valid point. The mozilla.debian.net folks do a great job but I wish it were included in the main repository. That this needs to be enabled separately is less than newbie friendly. Even though it is very easy to use after you have done it. I wish Debian would put Internet facing software such as Firefox and Chromium and so forth that by external policy cannot remain stable into the volatile (stable-updates) category and have a continuously usable upgrade track for those specific components. Perhaps one day they will. Again, the goal of my message was to offer the OP an excellent alternative to increase his comfort level so that he may gain enough confidence to then investigate in the future. I did not intend to promote an either or situation for all time, just a distro I am familiar with that may offer what he has yet to find. I think that from a pragmatic Xubuntu start he can then dig deeper as he wants to learn the underlying Debian way and make the jump at some future date. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 00:40:02 +0100 Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com wrote: Linux scares the crap out of me. I tell you, the thing that scares the crap out of me is a woman with a bow and arrow. -- CK -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ap7t8kfh6o...@mid.individual.net
Re: Thinking about using Debian
Charles Kroeger wrote: On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 00:40:02 +0100 Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com wrote: Linux scares the crap out of me. I tell you, the thing that scares the crap out of me is a woman with a bow and arrow. Oh God no... let's not go down this rathole :-) -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/512ecc6c.8040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On 2013/2/25 8:30 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks. Funny... I belonged to many lists 15 or 20 years ago. All wanted folks to top post and bitched about bottom-posts. Why? Bottom posts require scrolling to see that latest reply. Oh well. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/512c6fa2.7050...@gmail.com
Re: Thinking about using Debian
Mark Filipak wrote: Jerry Stuckle wrote: P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks. Funny... I belonged to many lists 15 or 20 years ago. All wanted folks to top post and bitched about bottom-posts. Why? Bottom posts require scrolling to see that latest reply. Oh well. Not top-posting does NOT mean bottom-posting. Bottom-posting usually means that the previous message was not trimmed. It is marginally better than top-posting however. The lessor evil. But what we want is proper quoting. What is described as Interleaved style in this wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Placement_of_replies In any case, trimming any quoted material down to just what you are replying to is the gold standard. As I have done here. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Thinking about using Debian
Le Mar 26 février 2013 0:35, Mark Filipak a écrit : Are you a fan of Shakespeare tragedies? I think Linux is a good subject. It's so hard to comment constructively without seeming to bitch. It's a tragedy. I would more say that everything humankind do is a good subject ;) I'm an electronics engineer technoweenie with over 3 decades of experience with such a wide range of mainframes/minicomputers/microcomputers it would make your head spin. If ever there was a customer for Linux, I would be it. Nice. I'm an humble programmer, with a very low grade, and the only thing I could say about my knowledge is that I am self-learning for 11 years. Does it means I should be impressed by people with more experience? I do not think so. While people claim quickly about impressive wisdom and knowledge, they do not show it very often. That's not against you, but for my experience, I have seen many people claiming having good knowledge in something, claiming they'll help, and never act. I has been one of them quite often :D and because it's free, complaints and/or suggestions seem like bitching and no one likes to listen to someone bitch. Use Red-Hat, and you will see if free means gratuit (in French, we say something is gratuit when you do not need to pay. I do not know the English word for that. Free, libre is reserved to freedom, with the idea of having rights behind). Red-Hat is a company specialized in supporting linux users, so, if you need to pay to feel good, ask them. The nice stuff with open source softwares, is that you can pay someone to contribute, too. I have a Dell Precision M90. ... If I invest months learning the care and feeding of Debian to the point where I can be comfortably secure with it and can advise others, will I be able to maintain that level next year when Debian is different? Debian will not change from a year to another, stable long at least for 2 years, and then, they become old-stable, for 2 other years. It means that there is support for 4 years per version. For your drivers, the solution is quite easy: use a live CD, if your hardware works like a charm, then the distro will do. I bet that this will not be, since there are really few free wifi firmware, so we often need to install a non-free package. If you use flash player, you will have the same need. Those exceptions, plus opera as a browser, are currently the only non-free packages on my computers (I currently have 3: an old computer (+10 years), an eeepc (1015pem) and a poor desktop, assembled by myself with cheap hardware (I'll upgrade when I'll need and have money for that) and all of them works perfectly.) I could just try it and see, but that could eat a lot of my time and I don't have the time to waste. If you have no time to waste, then, stay with windows XP, but remember: it's support will stop in few months. And more and more softwares will not be compatible with it... that is, in microsoft's world. I bet most of tools I am using will work there for at least few more years :D What's Debian going to be like? It's an OS with no GUI-cops at all. No one wants to do anything standard ... FreeDesktop.org should show you that maybe, finally, you does not know the whole situation. For other parts of the system, there is also LSB. Both of those organizations provides guidelines. I do not know for LSB, but for FDo, major desktops follows them. In fact, they do them. it's boring and you can't bore volunteer programers and keep them as volunteers. Look at Firefox and Thunderbird. They're getting harder and harder to use by the day. Why? Because no one is enforcing interface standards. But you can't say anything without someone else throwing What do you want for free? in your face. Really? As a programmer, my first objective is that my softwares will be used. Even when I am writing autorealm3, I will not say contribute or shut-up. Well, I could anyway say that a special feature is too hard/complex/low priority to implement it, and that user's contributions are greatly appreciated. But is it the same as saying What do you want for free? ? I do not think so. Also, my experience with Firebox and Thunderbird may advise against Debian. So, You see that google's browser send your informations to google, so, you deduce that microsoft windows entirely do that, too. I see. You are comparing Mozilla and Debian, 2 distinct organizations, like they were the same. They are not. That's why I'm lurking the Debian list ...to see what people's attitudes are. To see whether the developers are accessible. It's debian-user, here, not debian-developer... I tried to get involved fixing the PAM authorization stack architecture for my server. I got absolutely nowhere because the developers of PAM didn't want to talk with anyone who wasn't willing to write and compile code. Will Debian be any different? Debian is composed by humans, I guess. Some might act in a way, other in a different one. I guess Debian do
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:35:05 -0500
Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com wrote:
that, and the
knowledge that, because it's free, people who could help, won't (or
bail out at the first sign of trouble)... and because it's free,
complaints and/or suggestions seem like bitching and no one likes to
listen to someone bitch.
Think about the other implications of 'free', as opposed to 'paid for'.
Think about a company with a very high market share, and it becomes
obvious that most of its efforts will go into maintaining that market
share, and much of *that* effort will go into maximising
incompatibility with other manufacturers. Producing what the customer
needs will run a very poor second to maintaining market share. Remember
when Windows 7 Beta (I think they called it 'Vista') was actually put
up for sale as a full-priced product, because they needed to maintain
a market presence, not because it was finished? Debian Stable is
released when pretty well all the bugs are out, not on a particular
date.
Think about software as a business. It's no good if you just buy
Windows or Office once. Think about the mandatory rearrangement of the
user interface in every new version of Office, concealing the fact that
the core features haven't changed in decades (the first version I used
was 95, and today I rarely use anything that wasn't in it then, and
the original Apple version had pretty much all those features.
Microsoft learned how to write the first Windows from writing Office
for Apple). All that has really changed are the output possibilities,
now PDFs and web pages are produced within Office (and have you ever
seen the HTML produced by Office?) and that documents are now XML-based.
This isn't just theoretical: I help out in the Microsoft Small Business
Server forum (less often now that my Iceweasel won't post to it, nor
Konqueror, I need to fire up Midori to get the site to work properly
). I'm not at all impressed by the percentage of peoples' problems
which are purely artefacts of Microsoft's marketing policies ('No, that
won't work, Server doesn't work with more than one NIC or with a
non-/24 network address,' etc.)
There's a lot more to software being free than trouble getting help
with it, and in my experience, unless you put up a significant chunk of
cash per incident, Microsoft aren't interested in helping you either.
The warranties on paid-for software (found one yet?) say all you need
to know about the back-up you'll get just because you handed over some
money a year or two ago.
Oh, and are you happy with the attitudes of Windows software vendors to
the ownership of 'your' computer? I just removed a drive-by
installation of a McAfee something or other from my Win7 box. I do
usually spot these before they happen, and untick the boxes, but I
obviously missed one. I've no idea what wanted program it sneaked in
on. There's nothing like this in Linux, or at least at the Debian end
of Linux. But in the Windows world, the vendors are doing you a big
favour by allowing you to give them money, and in return they'll walk
all over 'your' computer and invite their friends in for a party.
That's probably the single most offensive part of the Windows world, as
far as I'm concerned.
--
Joe
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Re: Thinking about using Debian
On 2/26/2013 3:17 AM, Mark Filipak wrote: On 2013/2/25 8:30 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks. Funny... I belonged to many lists 15 or 20 years ago. All wanted folks to top post and bitched about bottom-posts. Why? Bottom posts require scrolling to see that latest reply. Oh well. Do you read a book from the back forward? Or a page from the bottom up? Top posting means one has to scroll down to see what's being responded to, then scroll back up to see the response. Bottom posting is the natural order of reading. In my experience, a few lists like top posting. Most prefer bottom posting. It's best to look at some postings to see which method the list members wish to use. P.S. There is no need to CC me. I watch the list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/512c9ba2.3060...@attglobal.net
Re: Thinking about using Debian
From: Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks. Funny... I belonged to many lists 15 or 20 years ago. All wanted folks to top post and bitched about bottom-posts. Why? Bottom posts require scrolling to see that latest reply. Oh well. No, bottom posting does not necessarily require scrolling to see the latest response providing that people quote only what is relevant to the response. In other words, that's yet another reason to bottom post, as it promotes a more efficient email style by reducing mindless quoting. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1361898959.71461.yahoomail...@web162706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On Feb 26, 2013 7:16 PM, T Elcor tel...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks. Funny... I belonged to many lists 15 or 20 years ago. All wanted folks to top post and bitched about bottom-posts. Why? Bottom posts require scrolling to see that latest reply. Oh well. No, bottom posting does not necessarily require scrolling to see the latest response providing that people quote only what is relevant to the response. In other words, that's yet another reason to bottom post, as it promotes a more efficient email style by reducing mindless quoting. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1361898959.71461.yahoomail...@web162706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com I work as a systems administrator for a software development company. We have a several tens of thousand dollars contract with microsoft per year for Premium Support (R). Even with that, each case costs us $200/hour. Most of them end up with please install the latest service pack for sql, devs say they fixed that or please install this KB. Yeah, I know it says it applies only to windows 2003 Last several years we didn't open more than 6-7 cases per year. Isn't that nice..? Getting past this, what makes me sic and tired of ms the most is both the fact that they want everyone to be surrounded by their bad products and also push that with their license agreements. And they use their customers as testers!! Ever tried hyper-v? OMG!! Ever tried vmm? I also recommend trying to read their official documentation for the windblows 2012 certification. It's full of stuff like this feature is not yet (fully) implemented. Add to this bing, and tons of other products released without proper QA. So, believe me when I say NO! For the sake of technology's future, I hope you at least try to take some time to discover something that you will be able to tame and control. Be it Debian, Ubuntu (if you don't like Unity, there's always Lubuntu, Kubuntu...), etc.. There is one more thing I noticed after working with several large multinational companies which were all ms customers: people will say don't change if it ain't broken!. I get the feeling that even if people are gurus and certified in tons of ms products, they still behave as if they had black boxes. I know that normally that should be the output if you do this change, but... With microsoft you can't always be sure.. And finally, any company that registers patents just so they can sue others; or buy companies because they couldn't do a better competitive product.. does not support technology as they claim. P.S. All names that should have had capital letters were intentionally written with the opposite out of disrespect for what the company has become. /endrant -- Sent from my Brick (TM)
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 06:35:05PM -0500, Mark Filipak wrote: I'm an electronics engineer technoweenie with over 3 decades of experience with such a wide range of mainframes/minicomputers/microcomputers it would make your head spin. If ever there was a customer for Linux, I would be it. Technoweenies usually have a symbiotic relationship with distributions like Debian. Linux scares the crap out of me. Windows has its problems, but they're known problems and I have decades of experience with them. I use applications, not operating systems. Linux and Mac users put Windoze down a lot, but they do a lot of lying in an attempt to hide problems with those OSes and that's what scares me... that, and the knowledge that, because it's free, people who could help, won't (or bail out at the first sign of trouble)... and because it's free, complaints and/or suggestions seem like bitching and no one likes to listen to someone bitch. Well, if new things scare you then maybe you should stay with the old things. That's a decision you'll have to make on your own. I have a Dell Precision M90. It's not listed as candidate hardware for Debian (http://tuxmobil.org/dell.html). But I know what hardware is in the M90. I know the video chip. I know the CPU. I know the bridge chip used. Is there an operating system currently installed on that computer? If not, install Debian and try it out -- it doesn't cost you any money. If there is already an operating system installed, you can try a live cd or live usb on that hardware. That means the whole system runs from the cd (or usb) and doesn't install anything on the hard drive. It'll be a little bit slower, especially if running from a cd, but it'll give you a good indication of out-of-the-box support for your hardware. If I go to Intel or Nvidia or Ricoh and find drivers for the chips that claim to be Linux drivers, will they work for Debian? The vendor is typically the *last* place I look for drivers. In fact, I usually don't look anywhere. Most drivers are included in the Linux kernel by default. I could just try it and see, but that could eat a lot of my time and I don't have the time to waste. A live cd is a very quick way to tell if Debian or another distribution will work on your hardware. But you will definitely need to spend some time familiarizing yourself with a new system, as well as breaking some of your Windows habits. That's why I'm lurking the Debian list ...to see what people's attitudes are. To see whether the developers are accessible. Well, did we pass the test? Actually, most of us here are just end-users rather than developers. Most here are pretty helpful, I think. Individuals have varying tolerances for hand-holding. Some distributions specifically cater to newbies and hand-holding, but as a side effect there can be a lot of noise and bad information to filter out in their support forums / mailing lists. I tried to get involved fixing the PAM authorization stack architecture for my server. I got absolutely nowhere because the developers of PAM didn't want to talk with anyone who wasn't willing to write and compile code. Will Debian be any different? The developers of PAM probably won't treat you any differently just because you're using Debian. The Debian package maintainer for PAM may be more helpful (or may not), but he may not be able to help at all if it is an upstream problem. My experience with Debian and a couple other distros so far has been that the developers are very responsive. I have reported a handful of bugs and the longest they took to be fixed was something like 7 days. I had a feature request that was implemented in 8 days. I've had some bug reports fixed in 2 days. But I know that not all bugs are fixed this quickly, if at all. Do you know of any very-experienced Debian folks who speak truths and wouldn't mind holding my hand? (and who maybe won't be put off by a little bitching?) I think you need to install Debian and then ask questions. Folks here will probably be better at answering technical questions rather than theoretical ones about human behavior. Good luck! -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130226230633.ga1...@aurora.owens.net
Re: Thinking about using Debian
(I deleted the OP so replying here) * On 2013 26 Feb 16:26 -0600, Soare Catalin wrote: So, believe me when I say NO! For the sake of technology's future, I hope you at least try to take some time to discover something that you will be able to tame and control. Be it Debian, Ubuntu (if you don't like Unity, there's always Lubuntu, Kubuntu...), etc.. I would heartily recommend Xubuntu. Why? The GUI is fairly easy to understand coming from Windows land even if the task bar is along the top by default. The GUI does what it is supposed to do and it does it quite well. Also, while this may be somewhat of a heresy on Debian User, Xubuntu will likely come with the drivers needed for your hardware or offer to install the manufacturer supplied ones (I've not found a need for those). The installer is first rate plus it doubles as a live CD. Firefox and Thunderbird are included and updated regularly. I have three of Xubuntu machines set up for my brother which I admin (he doesn't have the computer gene like me) and he gets along just fine. I worry much less then if he were using something else. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130227010900.gn31...@n0nb.us
Re: Thinking about using Debian
Hi Chris, Are you a fan of Shakespeare tragedies? I think Linux is a good subject. It's so hard to comment constructively without seeming to bitch. It's a tragedy. I'm an electronics engineer technoweenie with over 3 decades of experience with such a wide range of mainframes/minicomputers/microcomputers it would make your head spin. If ever there was a customer for Linux, I would be it. Linux scares the crap out of me. Windows has its problems, but they're known problems and I have decades of experience with them. I use applications, not operating systems. Linux and Mac users put Windoze down a lot, but they do a lot of lying in an attempt to hide problems with those OSes and that's what scares me... that, and the knowledge that, because it's free, people who could help, won't (or bail out at the first sign of trouble)... and because it's free, complaints and/or suggestions seem like bitching and no one likes to listen to someone bitch. So what am I doing? I'm bitching. Hahahahahahahahahaha. I despair. I have a Dell Precision M90. It's not listed as candidate hardware for Debian (http://tuxmobil.org/dell.html). But I know what hardware is in the M90. I know the video chip. I know the CPU. I know the bridge chip used. If I go to Intel or Nvidia or Ricoh and find drivers for the chips that claim to be Linux drivers, will they work for Debian? What if I don't find Linux drivers at the chip-manufacturer sites? Then what? If I invest months learning the care and feeding of Debian to the point where I can be comfortably secure with it and can advise others, will I be able to maintain that level next year when Debian is different? I could just try it and see, but that could eat a lot of my time and I don't have the time to waste. I won't go past WinXP. The latest versions of MS-Windows don't enforce interface standards at all. Even in later WinXP applications, some programs are almost impossible to figure out how to use. Some don't even have menus! What's Debian going to be like? It's an OS with no GUI-cops at all. No one wants to do anything standard ...it's boring and you can't bore volunteer programers and keep them as volunteers. Look at Firefox and Thunderbird. They're getting harder and harder to use by the day. Why? Because no one is enforcing interface standards. But you can't say anything without someone else throwing What do you want for free? in your face. Also, my experience with Firebox and Thunderbird may advise against Debian. In my opinion, success is everything. And success is a lot easier when you keep things simple. Firefox and Thunderbird are not simple. They are overly complex and are becoming less reliable quickly, but one can't even talk with the developers. They are in a world of their own. And who can blame them? They're doing what they want and you can't criticize because they're not getting paid. So I should just shut up. That's why I'm lurking the Debian list ...to see what people's attitudes are. To see whether the developers are accessible. I tried to get involved fixing the PAM authorization stack architecture for my server. I got absolutely nowhere because the developers of PAM didn't want to talk with anyone who wasn't willing to write and compile code. Will Debian be any different? Do you know of any very-experienced Debian folks who speak truths and wouldn't mind holding my hand? (and who maybe won't be put off by a little bitching?) Ciao - Mark (who spent 2 very pleasant months in NZ in the mid-80s, but decided that the Hutt Valley was not enough like Silicon Valley). On 2013/2/24 8:16 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 07:48:10PM -0500, Mark Filipak wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Hugo, but I'm not real keen on freeware. Open source is great, but free generally means not good and not supported - and a user forum is not support. I don't like forums either. Yes, this is a mailing list. The support is better than a lot of commercial software, and I personally believe the quality is better than a lot of commercial software. Have a read: http://www.debian.org/intro/about -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/512bf529.10...@gmail.com
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On 02/25/2013 06:35 PM, Mark Filipak wrote: Hi Chris, Are you a fan of Shakespeare tragedies? I think Linux is a good subject. It's so hard to comment constructively without seeming to bitch. It's a tragedy. I'm an electronics engineer technoweenie with over 3 decades of experience with such a wide range of mainframes/minicomputers/microcomputers it would make your head spin. If ever there was a customer for Linux, I would be it. Linux scares the crap out of me. Windows has its problems, but they're known problems and I have decades of experience with them. I use applications, not operating systems. Linux and Mac users put Windoze down a lot, but they do a lot of lying in an attempt to hide problems with those OSes and that's what scares me... that, and the knowledge that, because it's free, people who could help, won't (or bail out at the first sign of trouble)... and because it's free, complaints and/or suggestions seem like bitching and no one likes to listen to someone bitch. So what am I doing? I'm bitching. Hahahahahahahahahaha. I despair. I have a Dell Precision M90. It's not listed as candidate hardware for Debian (http://tuxmobil.org/dell.html). But I know what hardware is in the M90. I know the video chip. I know the CPU. I know the bridge chip used. If I go to Intel or Nvidia or Ricoh and find drivers for the chips that claim to be Linux drivers, will they work for Debian? What if I don't find Linux drivers at the chip-manufacturer sites? Then what? If I invest months learning the care and feeding of Debian to the point where I can be comfortably secure with it and can advise others, will I be able to maintain that level next year when Debian is different? I could just try it and see, but that could eat a lot of my time and I don't have the time to waste. I won't go past WinXP. The latest versions of MS-Windows don't enforce interface standards at all. Even in later WinXP applications, some programs are almost impossible to figure out how to use. Some don't even have menus! What's Debian going to be like? It's an OS with no GUI-cops at all. No one wants to do anything standard ...it's boring and you can't bore volunteer programers and keep them as volunteers. Look at Firefox and Thunderbird. They're getting harder and harder to use by the day. Why? Because no one is enforcing interface standards. But you can't say anything without someone else throwing What do you want for free? in your face. Also, my experience with Firebox and Thunderbird may advise against Debian. In my opinion, success is everything. And success is a lot easier when you keep things simple. Firefox and Thunderbird are not simple. They are overly complex and are becoming less reliable quickly, but one can't even talk with the developers. They are in a world of their own. And who can blame them? They're doing what they want and you can't criticize because they're not getting paid. So I should just shut up. That's why I'm lurking the Debian list ...to see what people's attitudes are. To see whether the developers are accessible. I tried to get involved fixing the PAM authorization stack architecture for my server. I got absolutely nowhere because the developers of PAM didn't want to talk with anyone who wasn't willing to write and compile code. Will Debian be any different? Do you know of any very-experienced Debian folks who speak truths and wouldn't mind holding my hand? (and who maybe won't be put off by a little bitching?) Ciao - Mark (who spent 2 very pleasant months in NZ in the mid-80s, but decided that the Hutt Valley was not enough like Silicon Valley). On 2013/2/24 8:16 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 07:48:10PM -0500, Mark Filipak wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Hugo, but I'm not real keen on freeware. Open source is great, but free generally means not good and not supported - and a user forum is not support. I don't like forums either. Yes, this is a mailing list. The support is better than a lot of commercial software, and I personally believe the quality is better than a lot of commercial software. Have a read: http://www.debian.org/intro/about I'd like to trim that, but I don't know where. . . . Anyway, just a comment or two. You are comfortable with non-free software--I am too, and I don't mind paying a reasonable price for something I need. That said, there is a bunch of software that is non-free but available for nothing. Perhaps you haven't been around Linux long enough to know the difference. There are some folks in the Linux community who insist that software be free in the sense of open source. The people who distribute Debian are in that group, so you won't find Thunderbird or Firefox there--they have some clones with funny names--but you also won't find some things that you'd probably want, and are not cloned. They are free in the normal sense of the word, but not open source. Like Adobe
Re: Thinking about using Debian
--- On Mon, 2/25/13, Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mark Filipak markfilipak.li...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Thinking about using Debian To: Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 5:35 PM Do you know of any very-experienced Debian folks who speak truths and wouldn't mind holding my hand? (and who maybe won't be put off by a little bitching?) Your claim of 30 years experience does not necessarily equate to maturity. There are a lot of Debian folks who speak the truth but many (if not most) are unwilling to babysit and spoonfeed. To me, Linux is about self-reliance and infinite possibilities with the user orchestrating the adventure. As to your fear of the unknown . . . either roll up your sleeves and plunge in with some live disks or find a good therapist. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1361840809.85307.yahoomailclas...@web163404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Re: Thinking about using Debian
On 2/25/2013 6:35 PM, Mark Filipak wrote: Hi Chris, Are you a fan of Shakespeare tragedies? I think Linux is a good subject. It's so hard to comment constructively without seeming to bitch. It's a tragedy. I'm an electronics engineer technoweenie with over 3 decades of experience with such a wide range of mainframes/minicomputers/microcomputers it would make your head spin. If ever there was a customer for Linux, I would be it. A relative neophyte. I've got almost 50% more experience. Linux scares the crap out of me. Windows has its problems, but they're known problems and I have decades of experience with them. I use applications, not operating systems. Linux and Mac users put Windoze down a lot, but they do a lot of lying in an attempt to hide problems with those OSes and that's what scares me... that, and the knowledge that, because it's free, people who could help, won't (or bail out at the first sign of trouble)... and because it's free, complaints and/or suggestions seem like bitching and no one likes to listen to someone bitch. Anything new is scary. There is always the desire to stick with what's comfortable and not move on to new things. I don't see any lying in an attempt to hide problems. Rather, I see a much greater degree of openness with problems in Linux than Windows. Also, I've found much more (and better quality) help in Linux than Windows. Ever tried to report a real bug to Microsoft Support, for instance? An exercise in *extreme futility*. Paid does not necessarily mean well supported. Often times it mean We might get around to fixing your problem if enough people bitch so that we can't ignore it any more. So what am I doing? I'm bitching. Hahahahahahahahahaha. Yes, you're bitching because you don't know any better. I despair. I have a Dell Precision M90. It's not listed as candidate hardware for Debian (http://tuxmobil.org/dell.html). But I know what hardware is in the M90. I know the video chip. I know the CPU. I know the bridge chip used. If I go to Intel or Nvidia or Ricoh and find drivers for the chips that claim to be Linux drivers, will they work for Debian? I don't use Dell, so I couldn't tell you. What if I don't find Linux drivers at the chip-manufacturer sites? Then what? If I invest months learning the care and feeding of Debian to the point where I can be comfortably secure with it and can advise others, will I be able to maintain that level next year when Debian is different? There is also a very good chance there are drivers built into Debian already. But as I said - I don't use Dell (I prefer better quality), so I don't know. I could just try it and see, but that could eat a lot of my time and I don't have the time to waste. If you don't have time to spend on something, then I suggest you stick with what you know. Any new OS is going to take a lot of time to learn - much more than just trying to find the appropriate drivers. I won't go past WinXP. The latest versions of MS-Windows don't enforce interface standards at all. Even in later WinXP applications, some programs are almost impossible to figure out how to use. Some don't even have menus! Then you'll soon be out of date. What's Debian going to be like? It's an OS with no GUI-cops at all. No one wants to do anything standard ...it's boring and you can't bore volunteer programers and keep them as volunteers. Look at Firefox and Thunderbird. They're getting harder and harder to use by the day. Why? Because no one is enforcing interface standards. But you can't say anything without someone else throwing What do you want for free? in your face. You're looking for reasons to bitch. Firefox and Thunderbird are not Debian, amongst other things. Also, my experience with Firebox and Thunderbird may advise against Debian. In my opinion, success is everything. And success is a lot easier when you keep things simple. Firefox and Thunderbird are not simple. They are overly complex and are becoming less reliable quickly, but one can't even talk with the developers. They are in a world of their own. And who can blame them? They're doing what they want and you can't criticize because they're not getting paid. So I should just shut up. OK, your experience with Yugos was bad, so you're swearing off motorized vehicles all together. That's what you're saying. That's why I'm lurking the Debian list ...to see what people's attitudes are. To see whether the developers are accessible. The debian users list is generally not where the developers are. Debian is a version of Linux, and Linux has a lot of different packages. Don't expect package developers to be here. Just like I wouldn't expect Adobe developers to be in a Microsoft support group. I tried to get involved fixing the PAM authorization stack architecture for my server. I got absolutely nowhere because the developers of PAM didn't want to talk with anyone who wasn't willing to write and
