Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 05:47:43PM +0200, Sven Arvidsson wrote: On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 17:07 +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: And WHY should Debian care about missing Manpages? It is the Upstream which should provide Documentation for tools otherwise they will be useless. I see it only as friendly geste if a Distribution like Debian create Manpages! Actually, manpages are dictated by the policy. If tar is considered 'upsteam' then only the kernel is downstream. Surely Debian should care about the quality of the man pages for everything, especially in base debs. However, I suppose its a catch-22. If the policy said that the base utils had to have full man pages or else they wouldn't be included in Debian, then I guess Debian wouldn't be unless it changed from Debian/GNU Linux to Debian/Open BSD. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Ih *. Am 2007-03-16 13:11:04, schrieb Jonathan Wilson: alsaconf, printconf, installation scripts for the OS, etc. We'll have to do it by hand. Perhaps, in the future, the brand spanking new Debian will start to look remarkably similar to Buzz, Rex, or Bo. I think it's crazy. Why? Deboian will be the ONLY GNU/Linux distribution where you can learn the REAL GNU/Linux. All other peoples will be degenerated like W... Users. Debian, - Where Mens are Mens, And Women are LinuxChix! :-) What does everyone expect newbies to use to change the config? Some of those Kicki-Bunti-Distributions? :-P Its one thing to edit the files by hand if you are only changing from one static IP address to another. And why do you do no do it? - The OP was talking about RECONFIGURING! It's completely different if you are adding a new PCI card, switching from static to DHCP or back. ??? iface eth0 inet static bar foo or iface eth0 inet dhcp Where is the problem? You can find tonns of descriptions for it in the HOWTO's provided by Debian!!! In fact, what's been frustrating me about it is, I use static IPs on my network, but during the initial install the installer is latching onto our DHCP server, without even /asking/ me if I want to use DHCP - it's just assuming I do (I don't, but I run DHCP for portable devices and other temporary situations). MOST USERS in the Western world HAVE ADSL and use DHCP. So it is the default. Other OS's use DHCP as default too. Then as soon as the install is done I have to go switch the configs from DHCP to static. The situation with the installer not asking what network method I want to use is a little irritating all on it's own, and more so given that there's no quick interface to use after the install to fix the problem. This is not neccesary, since you can use static IP immediatly without reconfiguring which I do nearly daily. It's one thing for myself to do it (I can use vi and emacs) but sometimes I help other people who are less skilled to installs - sometimes over the phone - and it's makes me crazy to have to explain to them ok, now type vi /etc/network/interfaces . . . yes, I said interfaces . . . use your tab nano is the default for Debian which MUCH easier for users! Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Am 2007-03-18 16:44:41, schrieb John Hasler: Write DFSG-free versions of the man pages. Your assistance would be welcome. Just write such a page and send it to the maintainer via the BTS. Definitivly FullACK! And WHY should Debian care about missing Manpages? It is the Upstream which should provide Documentation for tools otherwise they will be useless. I see it only as friendly geste if a Distribution like Debian create Manpages! I have written about 60 Manpages (EN, DE, Fr; mainly basicly but helpfull) and send them to Upstream... Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 17:07 +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: And WHY should Debian care about missing Manpages? It is the Upstream which should provide Documentation for tools otherwise they will be useless. I see it only as friendly geste if a Distribution like Debian create Manpages! Actually, manpages are dictated by the policy. -- Cheers, Sven Arvidsson http://www.whiz.se PGP Key ID 760BDD22 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 07:12:00AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: There is work in progress for a third option to merge the new stuff with the customized config. An option to drop into vimdiff would be nice, as that is generally what I do anyway. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting Encrypted mail welcome - keyid 0x604DE5DB signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:04:13 + Andy Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 07:12:00AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: There is work in progress for a third option to merge the new stuff with the customized config. An option to drop into vimdiff would be nice, as that is generally what I do anyway. Well, now I know there's such a thing as vimdiff ... Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:12:00 +0200 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Celejar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:58:20 -0500 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote: Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Celejar writes: Yes, but if you edit it by hand, then it won't be updated when a new version becomes available. You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. Yes, but neither choice is entirely satisfactory; if I keep my version, I don't get any improvements the devs / maints have made, and if I choose the new one, I (may) have to redo my changes. It is therefore preferable to make changes through dpkg-reconfigure to avoid this problem. There is work in progress for a third option to merge the new stuff with the customized config. Great! Looking forward. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:10:00 -0500 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote: You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. Celejar writes: Yes, but neither choice is entirely satisfactory; if I keep my version, I don't get any improvements the devs / maints have made, and if I choose the new one, I (may) have to redo my changes. You examine the diff and decide which improvements you want and/or whether you want to keep any of your changes. -- John Hasler I agree that it's doable; I'm just saying that it's simpler and cleaner to use debconf. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Celejar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:58:20 -0500 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote: Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Celejar writes: Yes, but if you edit it by hand, then it won't be updated when a new version becomes available. You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. Yes, but neither choice is entirely satisfactory; if I keep my version, I don't get any improvements the devs / maints have made, and if I choose the new one, I (may) have to redo my changes. It is therefore preferable to make changes through dpkg-reconfigure to avoid this problem. There is work in progress for a third option to merge the new stuff with the customized config. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:47:00 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Celejar wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:50:41 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] You want vi? change /etc/prefereces/editor to symlink vi and then visudo '/etc/alternatives' Oops. I don't use it so I don't know it's name. Sorry about that. will run vi. I suppose one should use update-preferences to do that, but that's one 'update-alternatives' of the tools that hide how things really work. Just like editing the /etc/network/interfaces compared to running a tool to edit it for you. Again, one of the reasons I switched to Debian is so I didn't have all these fancy little tools. Everything is stored in text files that can be edited with one's favorite editor. That's the way it is, and that's the way it should stay. I disagree with you about using update-alternatives. That is the 'official' way of manipulating the alt. system. The README in /etc/alt. sends you to the update-alt manpage, and update-alt does more than just manipulating that one symlink. For example (from the manpage): [snipped manpage quote] Also: Since the activities of update-alternatives are quite involved, some specific terms will help to explain its operation. That may be true for some things, but IMO, not for everything. Agreed. I was referring specifically to update-alt, as above. [snip] Celejar, let me ask you this, is it better to edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf by hand to implement necessary changes or should one use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg exclusively to build that file? I try to use dpkg-reconfigure so that when the file is updated, I won't need to redo my changes. Sometimes, however, I have no choice since I want to do something that d-r doesn't seem to want to do. What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? Others have made good points about this. In general, I think the question of whether to edit manually or use a tool depends on the situation, as also discussed in the various posts in this thread. The original topic of the thread was '/etc/network/interfaces', which I have always edited by hand. Networking is tricky enough without an automaton trying to make things 'easier' for you (how many people have been messed up by 'zeroconf'?) ... Additionally, it's important to have a good, detailed understanding of your network configuration or you *will* run into trouble down the road (you probably will anyway, but it'll be much worse and much more frustrating if you don't really understand your net setup), and that understanding is best acquired, IMO, by manual setup. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:58:25 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I find the little Konsole button on my panel at the top of my screen is one of the most used apps on my system. I love the command line. I have a [Xfce] Terminal launcher on my [Xfce] panel, but I rarely use it; my session is configured to bring up Terminal on startup, and I almost never close it ... Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:58:20 -0500 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote: Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Celejar writes: Yes, but if you edit it by hand, then it won't be updated when a new version becomes available. You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. Yes, but neither choice is entirely satisfactory; if I keep my version, I don't get any improvements the devs / maints have made, and if I choose the new one, I (may) have to redo my changes. It is therefore preferable to make changes through dpkg-reconfigure to avoid this problem. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
I wrote: You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. Celejar writes: Yes, but neither choice is entirely satisfactory; if I keep my version, I don't get any improvements the devs / maints have made, and if I choose the new one, I (may) have to redo my changes. You examine the diff and decide which improvements you want and/or whether you want to keep any of your changes. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
John Hasler wrote: Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? There is no such suppostion. Should I propose the opposite way of thinking? Instead of: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files, why don't we just ask: What is the problem of having all info stored in plain text files? Cassiano begin:vcard fn:Cassiano Bertol Leal n:Leal;Cassiano email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Cassiano Leal wrote: John Hasler wrote: Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? There is no such suppostion. Should I propose the opposite way of thinking? Instead of: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files, why don't we just ask: What is the problem of having all info stored in plain text files? Cassiano OK, What is the problem of having all info stored in plain text files? Aside from the fact a cracker could easily read them, they could do that anyway even if they were binary because if someone is adept enough to get through the firewalls, then they usually have enough knowledge of how the system works to reek havoc in any case. Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF/q2jiXBCVWpc5J4RAvibAKC7nUWnBtiWajUOpWaW87apA6DkkQCgl1Gl YPHvy8ht4CXcvUuo6ZKkh8U= =Xjv1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Hasler wrote: Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? There is no such suppostion. Reference: OP Does any utility exist in Etch for [re]configuring the basic network settings? This is what started it all. I agree with you. It is theoretical, perhaps you could call it a rhetorical question. Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF/PENiXBCVWpc5J4RAuHtAKCLnphfnufeDMkwucGmXZEphN1GTgCgxZgj iWJvIv84CYRGI9RCjm4ENbs= =E4WZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:52:11 -0500 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrei writes: The tools are useful for common stuff that should be preserved across upgrades. It would be a PITA to do them again (by hand) every time. Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Yes, but if you edit it by hand, then it won't be updated when a new version becomes available. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:58:05 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Hasler wrote: Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? There is no such suppostion. Reference: OP I (the OP in question) did not mean that you're never supposed to edit conffiles by hand; I meant just that for basic, standard edits the tools are often better, simpler, and more reliable. For more complex and nonstandard edits, you may want or even have to edit by hand. An additional advantage of readable conffiles is that you can (surprise!) read them to understand exactly what is going on. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
I wrote: Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Celejar writes: Yes, but if you edit it by hand, then it won't be updated when a new version becomes available. You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Celejar wrote: On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:58:05 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Hasler wrote: Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? There is no such suppostion. Reference: OP I (the OP in question) did not mean that you're never supposed to edit conffiles by hand; I meant just that for basic, standard edits the tools are often better, simpler, and more reliable. For more complex and nonstandard edits, you may want or even have to edit by hand. An additional advantage of readable conffiles is that you can (surprise!) read them to understand exactly what is going on. Celejar LOL. I agree with you. I can't count the number of times dpkg-reconfigure has come to my rescue. One thing on the downside though is by only using tools, it isn't as simple to know which files to edit. Sometimes after installing packages I have to resort to asking dpkg what it installed where. Some files (/etc/dchp3/dhclient.conf for example) are very well commented, others (/etc/network/interfaces) are not. IMO, it would be best if all config files were well commented, especially ones that may need to be edited. Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF/Z61iXBCVWpc5J4RAnpWAKDIgQtKX3KpqSyyb2Jd88yyAEv8fQCfaeM+ qp5xgtpR3k2Pzj7iEUDsWLo= =TKnm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Joe Hart wrote: Some files (/etc/dchp3/dhclient.conf for example) are very well commented, others (/etc/network/interfaces) are not. IMO, it would be best if all config files were well commented, especially ones that may need to be edited. As far as standardizing conffile documentation, I would settle for a man page for each conffile (like BSD). Your example, /etc/network/interfaces has an excellent man page, while others don't exist (e.g. ld.so.conf). Lack of, or outdated, man pages seems to be an increasing problem in Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Sun, Mar 18, 2007 at 04:32:33PM -0400, Marty wrote: Lack of, or outdated, man pages seems to be an increasing problem in Debian. Yesterday there was a question on tar so I thought I'd read the man page. Turns out there's only a basic man page and the full tar docs aren't DFSG compatible anymore and it points me to a web site. FOR TAR! Just imagine that I'm trying to restore a toasted system and need to brush up on CLI tar and I don't have a web browser working yet. I think this licencing problem is going to become critical at some point. I'm firmly in Debian's camp on this and am just waiting for the fine GNU people to put some invarient sections on actual code not just docs. I know, code is under GPL not GFDL, for now. Does Debian have a long-range or contingincy plan for this? Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Doug writes: I think this licencing problem is going to become critical at some point. I'm firmly in Debian's camp on this and am just waiting for the fine GNU people to put some invarient sections on actual code not just docs. I know, code is under GPL not GFDL, for now. Does Debian have a long-range or contingincy plan for this? Write DFSG-free versions of the man pages. Your assistance would be welcome. Just write such a page and send it to the maintainer via the BTS. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Sun, 2007-03-18 at 14:58 -0500, John Hasler wrote: I wrote: Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Celejar writes: Yes, but if you edit it by hand, then it won't be updated when a new version becomes available. You will be offered the choice of keeping your version or replacing it with the new version. I always look at the diff, and make a decision. In any case the new if you choose to love the one you got, will be conffile.dpkg-new. -- greg, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 10:05:25PM +0100, Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? I still would like to hear your answer (or anyone else's opinion) to this however. companies like MS have binary files. These are not human editable thus you have no choice. From my experiece, Most files that have debian tools, have a basic sceanario where you use a tool to edit them up until a cetain point. Past that, its up to you to take over. But when I upgrade certain things like my exim4, I use the diff option to see what changed, then I edit the $FILE.new and add my changed based upon the $FILE, then I finish and I can add my changes to the new file. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keyserver: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | |join the new debian-community.org to help Debian! | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Joe Hart wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? There is no such suppostion. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Mar 15, 2007, at 10:59 AM, Mark Grieveson wrote: None that I am aware of. You have to do it by hand. Interesting trend. I suppose eventually we'll see the elimination of alsaconf, printconf, installation scripts for the OS, etc. We'll have to do it by hand. Perhaps, in the future, the brand spanking new Debian will start to look remarkably similar to Buzz, Rex, or Bo. Or UNIX v7 -- the last clean OS. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Etherconf disappeared in Etch - I don't know why. Does any utility exist in Etch for [re]configuring the basic network settings? None that I am aware of. You have to do it by hand. Interesting trend. I suppose eventually we'll see the elimination of alsaconf, printconf, installation scripts for the OS, etc. We'll have to do it by hand. Perhaps, in the future, the brand spanking new Debian will start to look remarkably similar to Buzz, Rex, or Bo. I think it's crazy. What does everyone expect newbies to use to change the config? Its one thing to edit the files by hand if you are only changing from one static IP address to another. It's completely different if you are adding a new PCI card, switching from static to DHCP or back. In fact, what's been frustrating me about it is, I use static IPs on my network, but during the initial install the installer is latching onto our DHCP server, without even /asking/ me if I want to use DHCP - it's just assuming I do (I don't, but I run DHCP for portable devices and other temporary situations). Then as soon as the install is done I have to go switch the configs from DHCP to static. The situation with the installer not asking what network method I want to use is a little irritating all on it's own, and more so given that there's no quick interface to use after the install to fix the problem. It's one thing for myself to do it (I can use vi and emacs) but sometimes I help other people who are less skilled to installs - sometimes over the phone - and it's makes me crazy to have to explain to them ok, now type vi /etc/network/interfaces . . . yes, I said interfaces . . . use your tab key to fill it out . . . ok now hit you down arrow twice . . . hit I so you'll go into insert mode . . . type eth0 . . . What? you didn't hit I? ok we have to start over . . . Do you know what I mean? It's so much easier to have a config tool. -- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - System Administrator - Cedar Creek Software www.cedarcreeksoftware.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Friday, 16.03.2007 at 13:11 -0500, Jonathan Wilson wrote: In fact, what's been frustrating me about it is, I use static IPs on my network, but during the initial install the installer is latching onto our DHCP server, without even /asking/ me if I want to use DHCP - it's just assuming I do (I don't, but I run DHCP for portable devices and other temporary situations). I believe that if you select 'Expert' mode for the installation, you will be asked this question. Expert for when you know better than the installer ;-) Dave. -- Please don't CC me on list messages! ... Dave Ewart - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] All email from me is now digitally signed, key from http://www.sungate.co.uk/ Fingerprint: AEC5 9360 0A35 7F66 66E9 82E4 9E10 6769 CD28 DA92 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 01:11:04PM -0500, Jonathan Wilson wrote: Etherconf disappeared in Etch - I don't know why. Does any utility exist in Etch for [re]configuring the basic network settings? None that I am aware of. You have to do it by hand. Interesting trend. I suppose eventually we'll see the elimination of alsaconf, printconf, installation scripts for the OS, etc. We'll have to do it by hand. Perhaps, in the future, the brand spanking new Debian will start to look remarkably similar to Buzz, Rex, or Bo. I think it's crazy. What does everyone expect newbies to use to change the config? well for newbies, I'd expect them to use the lovely GUI networking tools that come with gnome or kde. Its one thing to edit the files by hand if you are only changing from one static IP address to another. It's completely different if you are adding a new PCI card, switching from static to DHCP or back. I think these are non-newbie situations, frankly. But I suspect they work fine through the GUI tools as well. I'm not arguing with you, just pointing out that the newbie is going to (hopefully) get themselves all the way to a working gui and then configure the network from there. .02 A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 01:11:04PM -0500, Jonathan Wilson wrote: It's one thing for myself to do it (I can use vi and emacs) but sometimes I help other people who are less skilled to installs - sometimes over the phone - and it's makes me crazy to have to explain to them ok, now type vi /etc/network/interfaces . . . yes, I said interfaces . . . use your tab key to fill it out . . . ok now hit you down arrow twice . . . hit I so you'll go into insert mode . . . type eth0 . . . What? you didn't hit I? ok we have to start over . . . So don't start a newbie off with vi. Have them use nano. To avoid the DHCP thing, pass a boot parameter: netcfg/disable_dhcp=true Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 01:11:04PM -0500, Jonathan Wilson wrote: It's one thing for myself to do it (I can use vi and emacs) but sometimes I help other people who are less skilled to installs - sometimes over the phone - and it's makes me crazy to have to explain to them ok, now type vi /etc/network/interfaces . . . yes, I said interfaces . . . use your tab key to fill it out . . . ok now hit you down arrow twice . . . hit I so you'll go into insert mode . . . type eth0 . . . What? you didn't hit I? ok we have to start over . . . So don't start a newbie off with vi. Have them use nano. To avoid the DHCP thing, pass a boot parameter: netcfg/disable_dhcp=true Doug. Ditto. There's a reason that nano is the default editor. Take a brand new etch install, then apt-get install sudo, then visudo to set up a user account with it. You're running nano. Maybe it should be called nanosudo. You want vi? change /etc/prefereces/editor to symlink vi and then visudo will run vi. I suppose one should use update-preferences to do that, but that's one of the tools that hide how things really work. Just like editing the /etc/network/interfaces compared to running a tool to edit it for you. Again, one of the reasons I switched to Debian is so I didn't have all these fancy little tools. Everything is stored in text files that can be edited with one's favorite editor. That's the way it is, and that's the way it should stay. As for the network settings, how hard is it really? Especially with modern routers all providing DHCP. Thanks, Doug for the boot cheat. I didn't know that one. Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+vURiXBCVWpc5J4RArFgAJ0RmpL/Wp6fpQ6wYwcACA4bzktTWACgoP6F PttDUgmJ7wRwxmzGMIKtfnw= =RvGA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:50:41 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] You want vi? change /etc/prefereces/editor to symlink vi and then visudo '/etc/alternatives' will run vi. I suppose one should use update-preferences to do that, but that's one 'update-alternatives' of the tools that hide how things really work. Just like editing the /etc/network/interfaces compared to running a tool to edit it for you. Again, one of the reasons I switched to Debian is so I didn't have all these fancy little tools. Everything is stored in text files that can be edited with one's favorite editor. That's the way it is, and that's the way it should stay. I disagree with you about using update-alternatives. That is the 'official' way of manipulating the alt. system. The README in /etc/alt. sends you to the update-alt manpage, and update-alt does more than just manipulating that one symlink. For example (from the manpage): It is often useful for a number of alternatives to be synchronised, so that they are changed as a group; for example, when several versions of the vi(1) editor are installed, the man page referenced by /usr/share/man/man1/vi.1 should correspond to the executable referenced by /usr/bin/vi. update-alternatives handles this by means of master and slave links; when the master is changed, any associated slaves are changed too. A master link and its associated slaves make up a link group. Each link group is, at any given time, in one of two modes: automatic or manual. When a group is in automatic mode, the alternatives system will automatically decide, as packages are installed and removed, whether and how to update the links. In manual mode, the alternatives system will not change the links; it will leave all the decisions to the system administrator. Link groups are in automatic mode when they are first introduced to the system. If the system administrator makes changes to the system’s automatic settings, this will be noticed the next time update-alterna‐ tives is run on the changed link’s group, and the group will automati‐ cally be switched to manual mode. Also: Since the activities of update-alternatives are quite involved, some specific terms will help to explain its operation. Celejar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Celejar wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 20:50:41 +0100 Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] You want vi? change /etc/prefereces/editor to symlink vi and then visudo '/etc/alternatives' Oops. I don't use it so I don't know it's name. Sorry about that. will run vi. I suppose one should use update-preferences to do that, but that's one 'update-alternatives' of the tools that hide how things really work. Just like editing the /etc/network/interfaces compared to running a tool to edit it for you. Again, one of the reasons I switched to Debian is so I didn't have all these fancy little tools. Everything is stored in text files that can be edited with one's favorite editor. That's the way it is, and that's the way it should stay. I disagree with you about using update-alternatives. That is the 'official' way of manipulating the alt. system. The README in /etc/alt. sends you to the update-alt manpage, and update-alt does more than just manipulating that one symlink. For example (from the manpage): It is often useful for a number of alternatives to be synchronised, so that they are changed as a group; for example, when several versions of the vi(1) editor are installed, the man page referenced by /usr/share/man/man1/vi.1 should correspond to the executable referenced by /usr/bin/vi. update-alternatives handles this by means of master and slave links; when the master is changed, any associated slaves are changed too. A master link and its associated slaves make up a link group. Each link group is, at any given time, in one of two modes: automatic or manual. When a group is in automatic mode, the alternatives system will automatically decide, as packages are installed and removed, whether and how to update the links. In manual mode, the alternatives system will not change the links; it will leave all the decisions to the system administrator. Link groups are in automatic mode when they are first introduced to the system. If the system administrator makes changes to the system’s automatic settings, this will be noticed the next time update-alterna‐ tives is run on the changed link’s group, and the group will automati‐ cally be switched to manual mode. Also: Since the activities of update-alternatives are quite involved, some specific terms will help to explain its operation. That may be true for some things, but IMO, not for everything. Earlier today I was helping someone install GNU/Linux to replace their Windows XP, and they needed the latest java (1.6.0) and it wasn't available as a package (that I could find), so rather than wiping out the java that was installed on the system (I had previously installed sun-java6-jre), I simply downloaded the jre from sun and installed it to /usr/local/bin, then changed the symlink /etc/alternatives/java to point to it. I figured that way, if the java package ever updates, it will fix that link and use the updated version. Perhaps I went about it the wrong way, but it worked. I don't really know if apt will overwrite my link or not when the time comes. I guess time will tell. She'll come running to me when it breaks. I'm still a bit new to Debian, so I don't always do things the recommended way. I am learning. Celejar, let me ask you this, is it better to edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf by hand to implement necessary changes or should one use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg exclusively to build that file? What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? Regards, Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+wJEiXBCVWpc5J4RAoGfAJ0eIlcfDR2oVpcy3yfyVKPxaHLUCACgtOvq 1A7C4PpHha8PFV2pAFs1Lk0= =h9hi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Joe Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Celejar, let me ask you this, is it better to edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf by hand to implement necessary changes or should one use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg exclusively to build that file? AFAICT, changes through dpkg-reconfigure will be preserved. But you can change only some common options. For more complex changes you will have to do it by hand and your changes will be overriden. What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? The tools are useful for common stuff that should be preserved across upgrades. It would be a PITA to do them again (by hand) every time. More advanced changes need to be done my hand though. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joe Hart wrote: Celejar wrote: [snip] Since the activities of update-alternatives are quite involved, some specific terms will help to explain its operation. That may be true for some things, but IMO, not for everything. Earlier today I was helping someone install GNU/Linux to replace their Windows XP, and they needed the latest java (1.6.0) and it wasn't available as a package (that I could find), so rather than wiping out the java that was installed on the system (I had previously installed sun-java6-jre), I simply downloaded the jre from sun and installed it to /usr/local/bin, then changed the symlink /etc/alternatives/java to point to it. I figured that way, if the java package ever updates, it will fix that link and use the updated version. Perhaps I went about it the wrong way, but it worked. I don't really know if apt will overwrite my link or not when the time comes. I guess time will tell. She'll come running to me when it breaks. I'm replying to my own message. After reading the man page for update-alternatives, I can understand the reason for it. I'm still a bit new to Debian, so I don't always do things the recommended way. I am learning. Thanks for pointing me to the man. Like I said, I'm still learning. Celejar, let me ask you this, is it better to edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf by hand to implement necessary changes or should one use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg exclusively to build that file? What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? I still would like to hear your answer (or anyone else's opinion) to this however. Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+waViXBCVWpc5J4RAmRkAKC9Y6oVvzIMpYcZkM5y6LszyxJ2eQCdFk9H zqM/YHu96htUDtsO/etusk8= =JuvZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? You can easily edit them with whatever you want. If you do have a frontend, like a configurator and you like it, use it. If you don't, you can always use your favorite text editor. This is freedom. Also, this makes it possible for one to change configurations via scripts (bash, perl, python, whatever), which opens a lot of doors, thinking server/workstation administration. Cheers Cassiano begin:vcard fn:Cassiano Bertol Leal n:Leal;Cassiano email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Andrei writes: The tools are useful for common stuff that should be preserved across upgrades. It would be a PITA to do them again (by hand) every time. Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrei writes: The tools are useful for common stuff that should be preserved across upgrades. It would be a PITA to do them again (by hand) every time. Manual changes to conffiles are preserved. Actually apt will ask to preserve changes or not. Because I want to have the latest changes/comments I usually choose to install the maintainers version and reintegrate my changes. There was a discussion on -devel recently to do this automatically. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Cassiano Leal wrote: What is the point of having all info stored in plain text files if one is supposed to only use tools to edit them? They might as well be binary. Or is it perhaps so other tools can easily read them? You can easily edit them with whatever you want. If you do have a frontend, like a configurator and you like it, use it. If you don't, you can always use your favorite text editor. This is freedom. Also, this makes it possible for one to change configurations via scripts (bash, perl, python, whatever), which opens a lot of doors, thinking server/workstation administration. That is what I thought. It would be a pain when upgrading, if all the conf changes were automatically overritten, but that is why it is important to document changes. I did have that happen to me, but it wasn't because I upgraded. I reinstalled from scratch and then had to make the same changes over again; it was to be expected. Why did I reinstall when I really didn't need to? Because my packages were broken to the point where I was at a loss of how to fix them and I knew that reinstalling and redoing the few changes I made would be faster than trying to fix the broken packages. If /home is on a different partition, reinstalling a system (or changing distributions) is trivial. But the point is, Windows mentality is still present here. I guess the OP wanted to know why he didn't have the freedom to use a tool to configure the network. I think it's because most of the development for that sort of thing has been in the GUI world so that new users would have to use the CLI less and less. I find the little Konsole button on my panel at the top of my screen is one of the most used apps on my system. I love the command line. Joe - -- Registerd Linux user #443289 at http://counter.li.org/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF+5GRiXBCVWpc5J4RAvZqAKChK5SJmQM60IydDcPpsD7NuHMkkwCgmH/S ddOLrh4LTz3gNazblSRLldo= =uISz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Etherconf disappeared in Etch - I don't know why. Does any utility exist in Etch for [re]configuring the basic network settings? Not a Gnome or KDE utility, because I don't install X on a lot of my boxes. None that I am aware of. You have to do it by hand. Interesting trend. I suppose eventually we'll see the elimination of alsaconf, printconf, installation scripts for the OS, etc. We'll have to do it by hand. Perhaps, in the future, the brand spanking new Debian will start to look remarkably similar to Buzz, Rex, or Bo. Mark -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Jonathan Wilson wrote: Hello, On Debian Sarge, I used to use dpkg-reconfigure etherconf to reconfigure the network settings after the basic install was finished (if I needed to change the settings). Just in case you don't know, dpkg-reconfigure etherconf brought up an ncurses interface for configuring network settings (IP Address, Gateway, DNS, host and domain name). It was a nice tool. It looked just like the installer's network config section. Etherconf disappeared in Etch - I don't know why. I've been editing network interface files by hand but I don't like it. Does any utility exist in Etch for [re]configuring the basic network settings? Not a Gnome or KDE utility, because I don't install X on a lot of my boxes. I've always edited the files by hand, but I guess that is a personal preference. I never had more than three boxes on my home network and changes are infrequent enough that I never felt the need for a front end to edit the files. -- Marc Shapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do I use to reconfigure the network /after/ initial install on Etch?
Jonathan Wilson wrote: Etherconf disappeared in Etch - I don't know why. BTS is your friend for issues like this. I did a brief search and found that the package has been orphaned upstream. So it was orphaned+removed in debian as well. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=379032 Does any utility exist in Etch for [re]configuring the basic network settings? Not a Gnome or KDE utility, because I don't install X on a lot of my boxes. None that I am aware of. You have to do it by hand. raju -- Kamaraju S Kusumanchi http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/ http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
