Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Craig Sanders wrote: libc5/libc6 what's the problem with libc5 and libc6? they both work in debian. no problem, only a question mark for a newbie at installation the usual cycle with dselect is: 1. Update 2. Select 3. Install 4. Configure 5. repeat steps 3 4 until there are no problems reported Here i got stuck on my first attempts to install a running system (ok, but only after selecting tons of packages and having no idea, what i'm actually doing) no, not with the standard mounted method. they should be logged. but they aren't. there is another install method called mountable which logs everything to /var/log/dpkg-mountable. good, this is what i wanted some packages also have easy to use configure scripts. sendmail, apache, and bind are the most obvious examples. there has been a lot of hard work put into the config scripts for those packages... and it shows, they really are excellent. Yes, they are very good. At least the package-descriptions should contain some info about all the installed files (their names and their destination-paths). Ok, but to be more precise. The path/file descriptions should be integrated in the dselect-screen and in the logfile. Almost like in other installers (copy file x.y to /destination/path/x.y - successfull, and so on). With those points changed, dselect would be the perfect tool for big installations (in my opinion). dpkg is already best. Mac -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Mon, Jan 26, 1998 at 12:04:40AM +0100, joost witteveen wrote: Adrian Bridgett wrote: Let's compare like with like. To install a program on windows you double click it and then keep clicking on next. To install a program on Debian you type dpkg -i filename. Dselect is not the installer, it is the package selection tool. It shows you a list of program which you have access to and can install. Adrian, Thanks for the clarification. That's nice to know the specific command for dpkg install. Does that also work out dependencies, or is that a function of dselect once a package has been selected from its list? Well, let's try: [snip] Seems it does dependancies. Which you can override (be *careful*) by using dpkg --force-depends ... IIRC you can get yourself into a pickle with dpkg rather more easily than with dselect (since dselect checks the dependencies *before* removing/installing a program). Potentially offensive files, part 5: /dev/random. `head -c 4 /dev/random` may print 4-letter words (once every approx 4e8 tries). :-) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Debian Linux - www.debian.org http://www.poboxes.com/adrian.bridgett | Because bloated, unstable PGP key available on public key servers | operating systems are from MS -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Marcus Brinkmann wrote: I'm not sure. The point is that you have to make a decision, which mail transport agent you need (do you have a big site, with lots of users, or stand alone with no mail at all, or only local mail, or what), which webserver if any, what printer spooler/filter and so on. In this case, only a dial-up ppp and otherwise standalone system. Where I work, they wouldn't let me run any type of server, so I'm just trying to find out the non-networked capabilities of the system. However, eventually, I'd want to at least use it as a client system to access email and web browsing plus web page development, with the possibility of running a web server for localhost access -- I'm looking for alternatives to Win95/NT with ASP and IIS/PWS. To configure a Linux system, you have to make a lot of decision, and to fine tune it you need certainly several weeks. Also, the default configuration can't suit every ones needs. With stand alone PC's or Macs, you can make a lot of assumptions, that are not true for Linux systems. There are sometimes long discussion about the best editor, the best window manager, the best shell. One could say, every component is optional ;) Wow, that's purty scary!! and as a friend of mine likes to say and I'm fearless. :) It is actually only a short shell script. You can check what a file is with the file command. You can execute a command and insert the output in a command line, like this: (snip...) Very interesting. I'll save that for when I can get one of the linux systems back in operation. No, you have to download them. You can print the postscript version with ghostscript and magicfilter installed. So I noticed after a second look at that site: there were Zip files which I can easily handle: I'm trying to read the documentation from the Win 95 system and then plan the installation of linux. I know it's not easy, Marcus. But that's what makes it worth doing, I think You are a hardliner, eh ? We all are ;) I guess maybe I am. Thanks. Dave -- --David E. Scott Ohio Administrative Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Hi everybody, most of the things were already pointed out. So if i repeat something - sorry. But i've not that much time to write. This is the 4th week after my first installation attempts. After trying many Computersystems and OS's i have to say that none of them is what it should be - user friendly. But Linux and Debian in special isn't really that bad - in fact it's very good. But it's really too much in one sigh. The negative points are (if they are negative at all): Tons of Packages (that's good); Too many Documents and especially too many outdated Documents (no Debian Problem - moreover a Linux thing); Tons of Bug-Reports to process when having a Problem (good); Tons of eMail in the Mailing-Lists (very good); libc5/libc6 The installation-routine doesn't determine which of the selected packages must be installed first. When package y needs package x to be installed but the simple alphabetic order of dselect want's to install package x first and second is package y - two runs are neccessary. If this happens with many packages at one time - big trouble may occur... Is the output of dselect logged somewhere? This woud help much, because most of the errors are not even readable when hushing over the screen. At least, the benefits of .deb are a bad in another way... They make the system intransparent for the user. A year ago, i dealt with slackware. After installing everything - step by step - i had a good feeling for the system, just _because_ i wrote almost every config-file by myself. So i learned to know the system (step by step - from easy to complex). dselect puts everything where it should be, but doesn't tell the user anything of it's actions. At least the package-descriptions should contain some info about all the installed files (their names and their destination-paths). Mac, -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
(i knew that the unhtml package would be a useful thing to install...a tip for you: don't send html documents to mailing lists. most people wont even bother reading them. even fewer will make the effort to reply. if you want to communicate, it's up to you to communicate in a manner which everyone can read) On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Markus Lechner wrote: The negative points are (if they are negative at all): Tons of Packages (that's good); Too many Documents and especially too many outdated Documents (no Debian Problem - moreover a Linux thing); Tons of Bug-Reports to process when having a Problem (good); Tons of eMail in the Mailing-Lists (very good); yep, debian's worst problem is it's success :-). it is huge and getting quite difficult for newbies to install. we hope that deity will solve that problem when it is finished. unfortunately, it looks like it wont be ready in time for our next major release. libc5/libc6 what's the problem with libc5 and libc6? they both work in debian. the current stable release (1.3 aka bo) is pure libc5, and the unstable pre-release (hamm, to be release as Debian 2.0 when it's ready) is mostly libc6 but libc5 packages still run on it. The installation-routine doesn't determine which of the selected packages must be installed first. When package y needs package x to be installed but the simple alphabetic order of dselect want's to install package x first and second is package y - two runs are neccessary. If this happens with many packages at one time - big trouble may occur... the usual cycle with dselect is: 1. Update 2. Select 3. Install 4. Configure 5. repeat steps 3 4 until there are no problems reported 6. Remove (optional) 7. Quit. Is the output of dselect logged somewhere? This woud help much, because most of the errors are not even readable when hushing over the screen. no, not with the standard mounted method. they should be logged. but they aren't. there is another install method called mountable which logs everything to /var/log/dpkg-mountable. dpkg-mountable has several other advantages too (e.g. much faster that mounted), so it's worth installing. you can find it in the admin/ subdirectory of the debian archive (or just install it with dselect). if you're using the ftp method to install/upgrade debian then dpkg-mountable won't be any use to you at all. At least, the benefits of .deb are a bad in another way... They make the system intransparent for the user. A year ago, i dealt with slackware. After installing everything - step by step - i had a good feeling for the system, just _because_ i wrote almost every config-file by myself. So i learned to know the system (step by step - from easy to complex). dselect puts everything where it should be, but doesn't tell the user anything of it's actions. you can do it this way with debian too if you want to. install the package and then read the docs and edit the config file. many packages have to be configured this way. some packages also have easy to use configure scripts. sendmail, apache, and bind are the most obvious examples. there has been a lot of hard work put into the config scripts for those packages... and it shows, they really are excellent. but you don't have to use those config scripts if you don't want to. there's nothing stopping you from doing it the old way. or even using the scripts to generate you a working config and then making changes with vi (or whatever your favourity text editor is). At least the package-descriptions should contain some info about all the installed files (their names and their destination-paths). the package system does contain a complete listing of all files belonging to a package. you can list it at any time by typing dpkg -L packagename. for example: $ dpkg -L unhtml /. /usr /usr/bin /usr/bin/unhtml /usr/doc /usr/doc/unhtml /usr/doc/unhtml/copyright /usr/doc/unhtml/README.debian /usr/doc/unhtml/buildinfo.Debian /usr/doc/unhtml/README /usr/doc/unhtml/changelog.Debian.gz /usr/man /usr/man/man1 /usr/man/man1/unhtml.1.gz also, you can get status information about a package with dpkg -s $ dpkg -s unhtml Package: unhtml Status: install ok installed Priority: optional Section: web Installed-Size: 20 Maintainer: Paul Seelig [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 2.1-4 Depends: libc6 Description: Removing the tags from a HTML file This program removes all HTML tags from a HTML file and directs it's output to stdout. It can be used as a filter for getting the text content of a HTML file without the need of firing up a web browser. craig -- craig sanders -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Script (/usr/bin/script from the bsdutils package) will make a transcript of a dselect session, regardless of the install method being used. See man script for details. Bob On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Craig Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the output of dselect logged somewhere? This woud help much, because most of the errors are not even readable when hushing over the screen. no, not with the standard mounted method. they should be logged. but they aren't. there is another install method called mountable which logs everything to /var/log/dpkg-mountable. dpkg-mountable has several other advantages too (e.g. much faster that mounted), so it's worth installing. you can find it in the admin/ subdirectory of the debian archive (or just install it with dselect). if you're using the ftp method to install/upgrade debian then dpkg-mountable won't be any use to you at all. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
grin wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, George Bonser wrote: I think it is because of the conflict resolution screen and the fact that Debian offers more alternatives than Red Hat. Maybe there are TOO MANY alternatives offered for a new install. Well, dselect should perhaps start with --newbie switch :) offering 'typical installs' of some kind. Many users scared off because the some hundred packages selection screen. Amen!! - I installed RedHat with no problem at all, but Debian has continued to be rather user-unfriendly. I've installed hundreds of Mac and Windows applications, and both have a much better user interface than either RedHat or Debian, IMHO. Dave -- --David E. Scott Ohio Administrative Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On 24-Jan-1998, David E. Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: grin wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, George Bonser wrote: I think it is because of the conflict resolution screen and the fact that Debian offers more alternatives than Red Hat. Maybe there are TOO MANY alternatives offered for a new install. Well, dselect should perhaps start with --newbie switch :) offering 'typical installs' of some kind. Many users scared off because the some hundred packages selection screen. Amen!! - I installed RedHat with no problem at all, but Debian has continued to be rather user-unfriendly. I've installed hundreds of Mac and Windows applications, and both have a much better user interface than either RedHat or Debian, IMHO. Dave Well, I've installed hundreds of Debian packages, and only been told to reboot once (and it was just a suggestion), and never had pacakges interfere with each other, crash the machine, refuse to install without the installation CD, overwrite each other's libraries, add themselves to *any* menu system you're using, etc. Dselect isn't perfect, and a replacement is under active development, but it's a bit unfair to compare it to the Windows click ok to install, and cross your fingers!. It's a different beast. It gives you plenty of flexibility, but of course flexibility costs you in complexity. It's also a bit unfair to compare to RedHat, because they have so many fewer packages and alternatives. Perhaps you could explain why you think the Mac/Win UI is better? Is it just prettier, or is there some way in which it is a better interface for doing the job? As far as I can see (the Windows installer) just covers your screen, tells you to kill all your other processes, shows you some cryptic disk space graphs (and some crappy graphics) as it copies files, gives you nice next buttons, then offers to reboot for you. Debian wouldn't need the reboot, the warnings, or the useless graphs. Perhaps the next buttons could stay. But if Windows were to allow you to install 27 packages at once, offered to download them, informed you of dependencies at the same time, and warned you if removing a package would cause trouble with other packages, you could be certain the windows installer/uninstaller would have more complex dialogs as well. I'll agree things could be improved, but Mac/Windows is simply NOT the way to go. -- Tyson Dowd # # Surreal humour isn't eveyone's cup of [EMAIL PROTECTED]# fur. http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~trd # -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Tyson, I guess I'm just expressing frustration at not being able to master the installation process. Agreed, Debian dselect does a tremendous lot of work during the install process, and it's very infrequent that dependency or other warnings are issued during a Win95 product install. In the hands of a Debian expert, my future son-in-law, the process is pretty impressive and quick, even if it's rather mysterious when I try to duplicate the process on my own. For those of us coming to linux, Debian or otherwise, from the business environment where when we ask the system (Mac or Win 95) to do an install for a package, we can be pretty confident that, in fact, the install will happen and we can be pretty confident that when the install is finished, the particular package will work as advertised. Mainly I'm on the initial learning curve, where one needs a whereis command to find out where particular file or set of files is located in the file structure, where one needs a list command to quickly display the contents of a given file, both in ascii and hex. Those two commands were invaluable to me when I was learning my way around DOS. Eventho RedHat has fewer components, if that's the case, at least its CD produced a running system with much less effort on my part as a first time user. Getting over that hurdle and finding the right tools to navigate around the new system seems to me to be critical to the understanding of how things work. Hope that explains my position a little better. Thanks, Dave Tyson Dowd wrote: Perhaps you could explain why you think the Mac/Win UI is better? Is it just prettier, or is there some way in which it is a better interface for doing the job? -- --David E. Scott Ohio Administrative Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 01:17:11AM -0500, David E. Scott wrote: For those of us coming to linux, Debian or otherwise, from the business environment where when we ask the system (Mac or Win 95) to do an install for a package, we can be pretty confident that, in fact, the install will happen and we can be pretty confident that when the install is finished, the particular package will work as advertised. Unfortunately, Windows' lack of a real package manager means that when you UNINSTALL the software, several other packages might be broken. Even when all the software uses InstallShield there are still problems. (I own InstallShield Express and use it for my commercial Windows software, but it's not particularly intelligent stuff). When I recently removed some software, it removed heaps of the MFC DLLs, leaving Office, SmartSuite, Winfax, and others all unusable until I could find other copies. This doesn't happen with Debian. hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Latest Debian packages at ftp://ftp.rising.com.au/pub/hamish. PGP#EFA6B9D5 CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome. http://hamish.home.ml.org -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Tyson Dowd, [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 1/24/98 11:43 PM Perhaps you could explain why you think the Mac/Win UI is better? Is it just prettier, or is there some way in which it is a better interface for doing the job? As far as I can see (the Windows installer) just covers your screen, tells you to kill all your other processes, shows you some cryptic disk space graphs (and some crappy graphics) as it copies files, gives you nice next buttons, then offers to reboot for you. Debian wouldn't need the reboot, the warnings, or the useless graphs. Perhaps the next buttons could stay. The mac makes it clear as to exactly what is being installed -- that's the biggest difference. It tells you what's happening. dpkg is better for doing stuff en masse and certain other things, but the mac is certainly easier, mainly because of presentation. But if Windows were to allow you to install 27 packages at once, offered to download them, informed you of dependencies at the same time, and warned you if removing a package would cause trouble with other packages, you could be certain the windows installer/uninstaller would have more complex dialogs as well. In this way, the mac/windows is worse. Windows worse than the mac. dpkg is still intimidating to new users. Asher Haig [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David E. Scott wrote: Tyson, I guess I'm just expressing frustration at not being able to master the installation process. Agreed, Debian dselect does a tremendous lot of work during the install process, and it's very infrequent that dependency or other warnings are issued during a Win95 product install. In the hands of a Debian expert, my future son-in-law, the process is pretty impressive and quick, even if it's rather mysterious when I try to duplicate the process on my own. Ok, let's summarize the differences between the install programs. The Win95 installs have a simple design, are brain-dead and can present you with nice 'Next' buttons. The Debian installer can perform complex tasks but has a user interface that is hard to learn. For those of us coming to linux, Debian or otherwise, from the business environment where when we ask the system (Mac or Win 95) to do an install for a package, we can be pretty confident that, in fact, the install will happen and we can be pretty confident that when the install is finished, the particular package will work as advertised. Well, Debian is not much different. It's just that first-time users get overwhelmed (sp?) by the huge list of packages dselect shows them. That's something you'll have to get used to until deity is released. Mainly I'm on the initial learning curve, where one needs a whereis command to find out where particular file or set of files is located in the file structure, where one needs a list command to quickly display the contents of a given file, both in ascii and hex. Those two commands were invaluable to me when I was learning my way around DOS. Let me provide some info to help you with this. The whereis command is called locate. It reads a database that is updated daily if you leave the computer turned on and/or if you have installed the anacron package. Its argument can be any substring of any filename you want to look for. locate /bin will find all files in /bin, locate bin/a will find all programs starting with a, etc. You can also use special characters like * and ? . Read the manual page for more info. The list command is called less or view. view is actually a read-only mode of the editor vi. If you install the vi clone called elvis, you'll have some interesting options. To configure less to be more useful, you can set some environment variables. If you like them, place the commands to set them in /etc/profile and they will be set every time you log in. These are the commands: export LESSOPEN='|/usr/bin/lesspipe %s' This makes less pipe everything you view through this script. This gives you readable information for verious non-text files, like .tgz, .gz, .tar, .zip, .arj and .deb files. export PAGER='exec less -si' This instructs many programs, among which man, to use less to display the text instead of more. The -si tells less to ignore case when it searches through the text and to squeeze multiple consecutive blank lines into one blank line. If you have installed elvis, the view command can give you hex output, using the :display command. When viewing a file, type :display hex to get the hex view. :display normal gives you text again. :dis is an abbreviation for :display, :no is an abbreviation for :display normal. BTW, I can send you a reference sheet containing a summary for the most used vi commands, if you like. It's about 8 kB of text. You should get a UNIX book from the local library to actually learn vi, but this will help you a lot if you can't figure out how to exit vi. Eventho RedHat has fewer components, if that's the case, at least its CD produced a running system with much less effort on my part as a first time user. Getting over that hurdle and finding the right tools to navigate around the new system seems to me to be critical to the understanding of how things work. Yes, that is, in my opinion, the most important point where Debian is still behind other OSes -- _beginner_ friendlyness. Debian may be user friendly (there is no typical user, so user friendly has actually no meaning at all for any program), it is not beginner friendly. Hope that explains my position a little better. Thanks, Dave Yes, your position is actually typical for beginning Debian users. But, keep on reading documentation (as you should always do, but especially with Linux -- any Linux flavour) and one day you'll be an expert. :-) Tyson Dowd wrote: Perhaps you could explain why you think the Mac/Win UI is better? Is it just prettier, or is there some way in which it is a better interface for doing the job? I think it's not only prettier, but also better to understand for those who have never seen it before. Messages like 'click next to continue' make sense to everybody, the help screens in dselect are more difficult to understand. Remco -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 09:57:46AM +0100, Remco Blaakmeer wrote: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David E. Scott wrote: Tyson, I guess I'm just expressing frustration at not being able to master the installation process. Agreed, Debian dselect does a tremendous lot of work during the install process, and it's very infrequent that dependency or other warnings are issued during a Win95 product install. In the hands of a Debian expert, my future son-in-law, the process is pretty impressive and quick, even if it's rather mysterious when I try to duplicate the process on my own. Ok, let's summarize the differences between the install programs. The Win95 installs have a simple design, are brain-dead and can present you with nice 'Next' buttons. The Debian installer can perform complex tasks but has a user interface that is hard to learn. Let's compare like with like. To install a program on windows you double click it and then keep clicking on next. To install a program on Debian you type dpkg -i filename. Dselect is not the installer, it is the package selection tool. It shows you a list of program which you have access to and can install. Adrian email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Debian Linux - www.debian.org http://www.poboxes.com/adrian.bridgett | Because bloated, unstable PGP key available on public key servers | operating systems are from MS -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Remco Blaakmeer wrote: Ok, let's summarize the differences between the install programs. The Win95 installs have a simple design, are brain-dead and can present you with nice 'Next' buttons. The Debian installer can perform complex tasks but has a user interface that is hard to learn. Agreed. chuckle, but I'm not so sure the Win95 install wizard could be characterized as brain-dead at least not in comparison to the truly brain-dead installations in Win 3.1 from 3d party suppliers especially, and sometimes even from 3d party suppliers in Win 95/NT. I guess there's a good deal of comfort level in those newer installers that do it all and even warn you and give you the option of replacing or keeping a newer DLL it finds already installed. (Similar in concept, I suppose, to the dependency checks Debian does?) BTW, the new Mac-based Office 98 from Microsoft offers the most simple install - there are no extensions required - all you do to install is drag the Office 98 folder from the CD to the Hard Drive and you're done!! Now *that's* the way all software *should* be installed. I'd *love* to see a fully windows-based linux that allowed installations that simple (and reliable). Just Drag and Drop - and yer done. Mac for several years has had even a smart drag and drop for stuff that goes into the System Folder: If you drag a font into the system folder, the system knows to put it into the Font folder; if you drag a Control Panel, the system knows to put it in the control panel folder, etc. I would think that if business types were to see that kind of software management in unix systems like linux, they'd likely take a much harder look at linux than they already are. Well, Debian is not much different. It's just that first-time users get overwhelmed (sp?) by the huge list of packages dselect shows them. That's something you'll have to get used to until deity is released. 'deity'? now there's a new one on me. where can i find out more about it? i agree, i'm overwhelmed (sp ok) by the huge deselect list of packages. Perhaps that's why i found RedHat easier to understand: there was a simple check list: if you want such and such a function or program feature, just check the box and run, or check the install all box and just sit back - no dependency errors - it just does the install. When I tried selecting all in a debian 1.3.1 install, I got tons of dependency error messages - making me very unconfidant (sp?) that debian knew what it was doing. Let me provide some info to help you with this. Thank You Very Much for the explanation you provided in this section. In the interests of conserving bandwidth, I'll delete/snip all but the portions I comment on, but I really do appreciate that information!! It's that kind of information that really helps a newbie up the learning curve. :) The whereis command is called locate. It reads a database that is updated daily if you leave the computer turned on and/or if you have installed the anacron package. So THAT's why I was getting the message that the locate database was over 8 days old. Later I found about the updatedb command, but it didn't seem to work. Thanks for the anacron information, I'll look into that: I suspect that allows one to keep the locate/db up to date even if one's machine isn't turned on all the time (this Pentium II/233 is so new and generates more heat than my previous 486 that I don't trust it yet leaving it on 24x7. In addition, the cat would spend all her time on top of the monitor G) I just checked the Linux Man book I have from RedHat, and there was no reference to anacron in the index. Where is a good source of information on this? BTW, that same book, the second edition, does contain documentation for a whereis command (I thought its origins were in the unix world), but I don't recall ever finding it or being able to use it in either the Debian installation or the RedHat installation when I had them running. The list command is called less or view. view is actually a read-only mode of the editor vi. If you install the vi clone called elvis, you'll have some interesting options. I found elvis in my Linux Man book (from RedHat), so that's covered. But thanks for the environment information below: our linux guru hasn't passed that along to me yet - but then I've not had a stable installation I can trust yet. :) To configure less to be more useful, you can set some environment variables. If you like them, place the commands to set them in /etc/profile and they will be set every time you log in. These are the commands: So *that's* where I stash my environment setups. Thanks again for the tips !! If you have installed elvis, the view command can give you hex output, using the :display command. When viewing a file, type :display hex Interesting thing about the DOS command LIST (actually a shareware add-on that's very popular) is that you can say LIST filename and you get an ascii display and then just
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Asher Haig wrote: The mac makes it clear as to exactly what is being installed -- that's the biggest difference. It tells you what's happening. dpkg is better for doing stuff en masse and certain other things, but the mac is certainly easier, mainly because of presentation. I just wanted to add that the Mac does not tell you _everything_ it is installing. This simply is not true. With .sit .sea archives you can open them up an look to see what is going to be installed. But the standard Install program will give you a display of what the author wants you to see being install as it also quietly slips things into your system folder or resources into the System file. Just my two bits. --Eric Yocom -- If you are good, you will be assigned all the work. If you are really good, you will get out of it. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 12:29:47PM -0500, David E. Scott wrote: Remco Blaakmeer wrote: Agreed. chuckle, but I'm not so sure the Win95 install wizard could be characterized as brain-dead at least not in comparison to the truly brain-dead installations in Win 3.1 from 3d party suppliers especially, and sometimes even from 3d party suppliers in Win 95/NT. I guess there's a good deal of comfort level in those newer installers that do it all and even warn you and give you the option of replacing or keeping a newer DLL it finds already installed. (Similar in concept, I suppose, to the dependency checks Debian does?) But you never now if you are safe to replace or keep it, are you? The dll's are somewhat similar to linux shared libraries, but in Linux the shared libraries are more consequently used. BTW, the new Mac-based Office 98 from Microsoft offers the most simple install - there are no extensions required - all you do to install is drag the Office 98 folder from the CD to the Hard Drive and you're done!! Now *that's* the way all software *should* be installed. I'd *love* to see a fully windows-based linux that allowed installations that simple (and reliable). Just Drag and Drop - and yer done. This won't work, because Linux does run on many platforms under many displays, under many network configurations and so on. You have to differ between user installation and system wide integration. You have to care about shared filesystems and many other things. Windows installation software can make many assumptions that are not true in an unix environment. Therefore it is easier to automate an installation of windows, but it is also easier to break it ;) Well, Debian is not much different. It's just that first-time users get overwhelmed (sp?) by the huge list of packages dselect shows them. That's something you'll have to get used to until deity is released. 'deity'? now there's a new one on me. where can i find out more about it? i agree, i'm overwhelmed (sp ok) by the huge deselect list of packages. Perhaps that's why i found RedHat easier to understand: there was a simple check list: if you want such and such a function or program feature, just check the box and run, or check the install all box and just sit back - no dependency errors - it just does the install. deity will have something like this, but it is currently under development. The GUI works somewhat, but you can't use it for installation right now. It is under project/experimental at the ftp server. When I tried selecting all in a debian 1.3.1 install, I got tons of dependency error messages - making me very unconfidant (sp?) that debian knew what it was doing. If you try to install all from a Debian CD, I would be very unconfident that *you* know what you are doing ;) You should first just install the standard packages (those are selected automagically). Just go directly to install, do not select more packages. Then, if you have this done, install a few packages at the same time. Then you will more easily understand, why certain packages conflict. Debian provides somezimes options, that conflict each other. It does not make sense to want both packages installed, then. The whereis command is called locate. It reads a database that is updated daily if you leave the computer turned on and/or if you have installed the anacron package. You can also use which program if you want to know, which version of a program gets started. If you have the same binary under /usr/bin and /usr/bin/local, you can check with which, which of those will be executed with your current PATH setting (earlier PATH's get searched earlier). So THAT's why I was getting the message that the locate database was over 8 days old. Later I found about the updatedb command, but it didn't seem to work. Thanks for the anacron information, I'll look into that: I suspect that allows one to keep the locate/db up to date even if one's machine isn't turned on all the time (this Pentium II/233 is so new and generates more heat than my previous 486 that I don't trust it yet leaving it on 24x7. In addition, the cat would spend all her time on top of the monitor G) Yes, exactly. Just install anacron, and you are done. It is quite easy, but you shouldn't be surprised if the machine is working hard ten minutes after booting. Then it tries to catch up with all the databases and log files. It takes probably up to ten minutes. To configure less to be more useful, you can set some environment variables. If you like them, place the commands to set them in /etc/profile and they will be set every time you log in. These are the commands: So *that's* where I stash my environment setups. Thanks again for the tips !! Not exactly. /etc/profile is for *system wide* configuration (every user will have those variable settings). If you only want to configure your account, you should use ~/.bash_profile The dotted file is hidden -
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Marcus Brinkmann wrote: But you never now if you are safe to replace or keep it, are you? True enough, but the safer option is to not allow the installer put in the older version. That way if the software I'm testing doesn't run, I can trash it. However if I had let the installer go ahead and replace the older DLL, and if then my Windows system didn't run after reboot, I'd be in big trouble. :) I'd *love* to see a fully windows-based linux that allowed installations that simple (and reliable). Just Drag and Drop - and yer done. This won't work, because Linux does run on many platforms under many displays, under many network configurations and so on. Well, since in the case of the Mac System Folder Drag and Drop, the system knows which sub folder(s) to put the new file(s), I should think it would be possible to extend that concept to automatic dpkg-equivalent run and automatic dependency checks. If a system/platform/configuration isn't a GUI, then perhaps an automatic installer that was triggered by something like copy a:*.* c:*.* would be an interesting idea. You have to differ between user installation and system wide integration. You have to care about shared filesystems and many other things. Windows installation software can make many assumptions that are not true in an unix environment. Therefore it is easier to automate an installation of windows, but it is also easier to break it ;) Perhaps like the RedHad system, all those assumptions could be made ahead of time (with more limited functionality initially). Then if you add additional packages later, perhaps there could be a command (if there isn't one already) that would do a pre-scan for dependencies and set up an install script that would make the best guess for what to do to eliminate them. Then running that script would both eliminate the dependencies and install the desired package. ?? If you try to install all from a Debian CD, I would be very unconfident that *you* know what you are doing ;) chuckle You should first just install the standard packages (those are selected automagically). Just go directly to install, do not select more packages. Good point. I'll take that route next time. Thanks for the suggestion. You can also use which program if you want to know, which version of a program gets started. If you have the same binary under /usr/bin and /usr/bin/local, you can check with which, which of those will be executed with your current PATH setting (earlier PATH's get searched earlier). Cool, but that command doesn't appear in the Linux Man book I have. I have the 2nd edition. Is that specific to either RedHat or Debian, or is it one of the newer commands? Yes, exactly. Just install anacron, and you are done. It is quite easy, That also isn't documented in the man book I have. Is it also one of the newer commands? Not exactly. /etc/profile is for *system wide* configuration (every user will have those variable settings). If you only want to configure your account, you should use ~/.bash_profile The dotted file is hidden - try ls -a ~ to see it. Thanks for the specification of the difference and the command to see it. :) You will probably see that you never need hex dump of files. I thought I would need it, too (look at the od program), but I soon found out that I can do everything with my text editor or standard unix tools. Just the same, it's nice to know there is that option. Now I have another bookmark in my Man book - at the OD page. :) Thanks !! Perhaps it was Xemacs. Emacs is a world for itself ;) I just checked the CD case: yup, you're right. Look at the LDP project (sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/doc/LDP or so). they have a user guide. gzipped and not readable in a browser. An interesting situation: the documentation for installing Linux is most easily available if you already have Linux installed. :) You are welcome, but it is a long way 'til you find out that it is not easy to make things easy ;) (There are a lot of special needs to care about). I know it's not easy, Marcus. But that's what makes it worth doing, I think Dave -- --David E. Scott Ohio Administrative Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Adrian Bridgett wrote: Let's compare like with like. To install a program on windows you double click it and then keep clicking on next. To install a program on Debian you type dpkg -i filename. Dselect is not the installer, it is the package selection tool. It shows you a list of program which you have access to and can install. Adrian, Thanks for the clarification. That's nice to know the specific command for dpkg install. Does that also work out dependencies, or is that a function of dselect once a package has been selected from its list? Thanks, Dave -- --David E. Scott Ohio Administrative Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David E. Scott wrote: Adrian Bridgett wrote: Let's compare like with like. To install a program on windows you double click it and then keep clicking on next. To install a program on Debian you type dpkg -i filename. Dselect is not the installer, it is the package selection tool. It shows you a list of program which you have access to and can install. Adrian, Thanks for the clarification. That's nice to know the specific command for dpkg install. Does that also work out dependencies, or is that a function of dselect once a package has been selected from its list? Thanks, Dave Yes, dpkg also works with the same dependencies. It wouldn't be worth much if it didn't, I think. If you try to dpkg -i ... a package that has a dependency on a package you haven't installed or a conflict with a package that you have, dpkg will complain about it. Remco -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Adrian Bridgett wrote: Let's compare like with like. To install a program on windows you double click it and then keep clicking on next. To install a program on Debian you type dpkg -i filename. Dselect is not the installer, it is the package selection tool. It shows you a list of program which you have access to and can install. Adrian, Thanks for the clarification. That's nice to know the specific command for dpkg install. Does that also work out dependencies, or is that a function of dselect once a package has been selected from its list? Well, let's try: rulcmc:/# dpkg -r libc5 dpkg: dependency problems prevent removal of libc5: biff depends on libc5 (= 5.4.7-7). v1 depends on libc5 (= 5.4.0-0). seyon depends on libc5; however: Package libc5 is to be removed. [.. some hundred more lines..] cern-httpd depends on libc5. xpaint depends on libc5 (= 5.4.0-0). dpkg: error processing libc5 (--remove): dependency problems - not removing Errors were encountered while processing: libc5 Seems it does dependancies. Type dpkg --help for more info. It's got a lot of options, and it's about the only programme I use daily/weekly, and many with me. I only use dselect when I want to upgrade my whole system (any time now). -- joost witteveen, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Potentially offensive files, part 5: /dev/random. `head -c 4 /dev/random` may print 4-letter words (once every approx 4e8 tries). -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David E. Scott wrote: Remco Blaakmeer wrote: Well, Debian is not much different. It's just that first-time users get overwhelmed (sp?) by the huge list of packages dselect shows them. That's something you'll have to get used to until deity is released. 'deity'? now there's a new one on me. where can i find out more about it? i agree, i'm overwhelmed (sp ok) by the huge deselect list of packages. Perhaps that's why i found RedHat easier to understand: there was a simple check list: if you want such and such a function or program feature, just check the box and run, or check the install all box and just sit back - no dependency errors - it just does the install. Well, you are probably comparing two different things. The outcome is, they are different. Deity is a progra that is under development and not really in a usable state yet. It will do for you what dselect does now, only better and with a nicer user interface. Debian GNU/Linux isn't just an OS or a program, of which you can install all elements. It is an OS with many programs. And some of these programs happen to conflict with each other. Well, so be it. Mostly they offer about the same functionality anyway. Think of it as an Office package for Windows that would include both Word and WordPerfect. You should install either one of them, but not both at once. Perhaps this is a bad example, but you'll get the idea. When I tried selecting all in a debian 1.3.1 install, I got tons of dependency error messages - making me very unconfidant (sp?) that debian knew what it was doing. See above. Debian knows what it's doing, that's why you get all those errors. The whereis command is called locate. It reads a database that is updated daily if you leave the computer turned on and/or if you have installed the anacron package. So THAT's why I was getting the message that the locate database was over 8 days old. Later I found about the updatedb command, but it didn't seem to work. Thanks for the anacron information, I'll look into that: I suspect that allows one to keep the locate/db up to date even if one's machine isn't turned on all the time (this Pentium II/233 is so new and generates more heat than my previous 486 that I don't trust it yet leaving it on 24x7. In addition, the cat would spend all her time on top of the monitor G) I just checked the Linux Man book I have from RedHat, and there was no reference to anacron in the index. Where is a good source of information on this? I don't know how old anacron is. It is a program that works somewhat similar to cron, which runs programs at specified times, but it doesn't require the computer to be turned on at all times in order to run all the jobs. You don't really need to read a lot of documentation on it. Just install the package. The default configuration runs it at boot time, which will cause it to run all scripts which are normally ran daily at some time very early in the morning. This will cause your computer to be very busy for about ten minutes after booting. BTW, that same book, the second edition, does contain documentation for a whereis command (I thought its origins were in the unix world), but I don't recall ever finding it or being able to use it in either the Debian installation or the RedHat installation when I had them running. Try the which command. For a command you can execute, it tells you which thing actually is executed. The list command is called less or view. view is actually a read-only mode of the editor vi. If you install the vi clone called elvis, you'll have some interesting options. I found elvis in my Linux Man book (from RedHat), so that's covered. But thanks for the environment information below: our linux guru hasn't passed that along to me yet - but then I've not had a stable installation I can trust yet. :) To configure less to be more useful, you can set some environment variables. If you like them, place the commands to set them in /etc/profile and they will be set every time you log in. These are the commands: So *that's* where I stash my environment setups. Thanks again for the tips !! If you have installed elvis, the view command can give you hex output, using the :display command. When viewing a file, type :display hex Interesting thing about the DOS command LIST (actually a shareware add-on that's very popular) is that you can say LIST filename and you get an ascii display and then just do a Cntrl-H to switch the display to hex mode. Very convenient, and doesn't require restarting the program with a different set of switches. Well, the : commands are things you type when you are in the program. So you can actually switch when you are viewing a file. But, like somebody else said, you probably won't be needing the ability to edit or view binary files. BTW, I can send you a reference sheet containing a summary for the most used vi commands, if
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 05:08:07PM -0500, David E. Scott wrote: Marcus Brinkmann wrote: Therefore it is easier to automate an installation of windows, but it is also easier to break it ;) Perhaps like the RedHad system, all those assumptions could be made ahead of time (with more limited functionality initially). Then if you add additional packages later, perhaps there could be a command (if there isn't one already) that would do a pre-scan for dependencies and set up an install script that would make the best guess for what to do to eliminate them. Then running that script would both eliminate the dependencies and install the desired package. ?? I'm not sure. The point is that you have to make a decision, which mail transport agent you need (do you have a big site, with lots of users, or stand alone with no mail at all, or only local mail, or what), which webserver if any, what printer spooler/filter and so on. To configure a Linux system, you have to make a lot of decision, and to fine tune it you need certainly several weeks. Also, the default configuration can't suit every ones needs. With stand alone PC's or Macs, you can make a lot of assumptions, that are not true for Linux systems. There are sometimes long discussion about the best editor, the best window manager, the best shell. One could say, every component is optional ;) You can also use which program if you want to know, which version of a program gets started. If you have the same binary under /usr/bin and /usr/bin/local, you can check with which, which of those will be executed with your current PATH setting (earlier PATH's get searched earlier). Cool, but that command doesn't appear in the Linux Man book I have. I have the 2nd edition. Is that specific to either RedHat or Debian, or is it one of the newer commands? It is actually only a short shell script. You can check what a file is with the file command. You can execute a command and insert the output in a command line, like this: $ file `which which` /usr/bin/which: Bourne-Again shell script text So to say, which is really /usr/bin/which, and it is a shell script (a BATCH file in DOS). If you take a look at /usr/bin/which with cat, vi, less or whatever, you see that it only contains five lines: #!/bin/bash unalias -a unset -- $@ /dev/null enable -n -- $@ /dev/null type -p $@ The most important line is type ..., this is a bash builtin (find out with type type ;), and it gives you: $ type which which is hashed (/usr/bin/which) which means, that the which command was already executed (so there is no need to search it again in the path), and will be started from /usr/bin/which). To find out where which is packaged: $ dpkg -S which ircii: /usr/lib/irc/help/which debianutils: /usr/man/man1/which.1.gz debianutils: /usr/bin/which tetex-bin: /usr/bin/kpsewhich So it is a debian tool, but it is common in the Unix world. Yes, exactly. Just install anacron, and you are done. It is quite easy, That also isn't documented in the man book I have. Is it also one of the newer commands? Actually, it is no command you would enter on the command line. Anacron will be started at boot time and as a cron job. If you reboot, Anacron checks if there are cron jobs that didn't run (because the computer was switched off). If there are, it executes them. $ dpkg --print-avail anacron [...] This package is pre-configured to execute the daily jobs of the Debian system. You should install this program if your system isn't powered on 24 hours a day to make sure the maintainance jobs of other Debian packages are executed each day. Just the same, it's nice to know there is that option. Now I have another bookmark in my Man book - at the OD page. :) Thanks !! You will find less and less need for it, but sometimes it is useful. Look at the LDP project (sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/doc/LDP or so). they have a user guide. gzipped and not readable in a browser. An interesting situation: the documentation for installing Linux is most easily available if you already have Linux installed. :) No, you have to download them. You can print the postscript version with ghostscript and magicfilter installed. If you need preprinted documentation, try your nearest book store - Linux in a Nutshell is often recommended, but there are many other books, too. You are welcome, but it is a long way 'til you find out that it is not easy to make things easy ;) (There are a lot of special needs to care about). I know it's not easy, Marcus. But that's what makes it worth doing, I think You are a hardliner, eh ? We all are ;) Marcus -- Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.Debian GNU/Linuxfinger brinkmd@ Marcus Brinkmann http://www.debian.orgmaster.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]for public PGP Key http://homepage.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/Marcus.Brinkmann/ PGP Key ID 36E7CD09 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, George Bonser wrote: I think it is because of the conflict resolution screen and the fact that Debian offers more alternatives than Red Hat. Maybe there are TOO MANY alternatives offered for a new install. Well, dselect should perhaps start with --newbie switch :) offering 'typical installs' of some kind. Many users scared off because the some hundred packages selection screen. cya peter -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
What makes RH that much simpler to use?? I find dselect simple, and linux == linux so config files are fairly standard. Yet I have heard I have been using Linux for about 5 years and am currently administering an ISP (running Linux). I did not expect much trouble installing debian, however the first time I had a lot of trouble with dselect. --Jeff -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
There is work being done on improving the installation. The problems do arise from the great flexibility of debian. I agree that not trying to install everything in one pass is the way to go. It makes things much simpler. In the end, I think the debian packaging system does a good job of maintaining the integrity of the system. There is a strict set of rules that maintainers have to follow when making a package. The aim of the rules is to maintain the quality and integrity of the system. On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, George Bonser wrote: I think it is because of the conflict resolution screen and the fact that Debian offers more alternatives than Red Hat. Maybe there are TOO MANY alternatives offered for a new install. Example ... try selecting cnews on a clean instll and it throws you into the conflict resolution screen right away. Red Hat gives you no choice in the matter, if you want news transport you get inn. Newbies also tend to install too much in the initial dselect menu causing a lot of time in conflict resolution. About the only thing I do the firstr time through dselect is unselect emacs and select the MTA that I want and let the rest of it install from its defaults. Then I run it a second time to change things. I find that I have a LOT less trouble this way. On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Shaleh wrote: What makes RH that much simpler to use?? I find dselect simple, and linux == linux so config files are fairly standard. Yet I have heard that comment numerous times -- debian is too much of a learning curve. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . George Bonser If NT is the answer, you didn't understand the question. (NOTE: Stolen sig) http://www.debian.org Debian/GNU Linux ... the maintainable operating system. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . G John Lapeyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tucson,AZ http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~lapeyre -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
On 19-Jan-1998, George Bonser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is because of the conflict resolution screen and the fact that Debian offers more alternatives than Red Hat. Maybe there are TOO MANY alternatives offered for a new install. Example ... try selecting cnews on a clean instll and it throws you into the conflict resolution screen right away. Red Hat gives you no choice in the matter, if you want news transport you get inn. Newbies also tend to install too much in the initial dselect menu causing a lot of time in conflict resolution. About the only thing I do the firstr time through dselect is unselect emacs and select the MTA that I want and let the rest of it install from its defaults. Then I run it a second time to change things. I find that I have a LOT less trouble this way. I suspect a sensible default system will fix this. You can probably expect that future incarnations of dselect (deity) will allow support for groupings of packages, which will have the conflicts already taken care of. Then you can just say I'm a newbie, give me a typical newbie system and will get a usuable default. Once you're ready, you can go play with the alternatives. At the moment, Debian seems to be more popular as a second system -- once you've tried a different Linux first, or used other Unix systems you appreciate and enjoy the flexibility of the Debian system. -- Tyson Dowd # # Surreal humour isn't eveyone's cup of [EMAIL PROTECTED]# fur. http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~trd # -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
Tyson Dowd said: At the moment, Debian seems to be more popular as a second system -- once you've tried a different Linux first, or used other Unix systems you appreciate and enjoy the flexibility of the Debian system. I would definitly agree with that observation. I am currently setting a freind who has never used any unix b4 (short of logging in and using pine on his schools system) I am setting him up with redhat and until recently I loved RedHat. Now that my Linux box crashed (its a real tribute to linux...I see Win95 boxes crashing all the time... sometimes 2-3 times a day...where as my linux box was up 62 days and died at a major hardware failure...the last tim eit was down was 62 days before...during a power outage!) After problems had with redhat (I find redhat doesn't allow much for growth meaning as in you are becommin gmore advanced and wanting to do more advanced things) Once I get a new hard drive...I am installing Debian on it. tho..this isn't my seonc dsystem... its my 4th (1st was only for a month suel booting...same fo rthe 2nd...till this dedicated one for 3rd) -Steve -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Why is debian more of a learning curve than Redhat???
I have found that redhat was easy because the documentation was better printed in the book stores, but I have switched to debian and found it just as easy to work with as debian and like it better in the sense of upgrading, the dselect does a fairly nice job compared to Redhat. On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Shaleh wrote: What makes RH that much simpler to use?? I find dselect simple, and linux == linux so config files are fairly standard. Yet I have heard that comment numerous times -- debian is too much of a learning curve. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
