Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 07:27:17AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
> have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
> their threads.

It is technically feasible of course. That's not the bit I'd have
doubts about.

One of the common defences of the abundance of off-topic posting
here is that with proper use of a mail client they are easy to
ignore. I would also suggest that with proper use of a mail client
one can set followups to another place, i.e. the off-topic place. In
such a way, an experienced mail sender could diverge into off-topic
land for one mail but the replies would come to the other place, for
that audience.

What I don't believe though, is there there is any will amongst the
most prolific posters to do this. I think that they have decided
they are entitled to post that stuff here and absent any actual
enforced rule change they will not stop doing so.

It sounds sensible and polite to move the conversation, *if* you
believe that the conversation doesn't belong on debian-user. If you
don't believe that then one person's "sensible and polite" becomes
another's "unacceptably controlling and politically correct attempt
to destroy the community",

So I see a separate off-topic list as doomed to go the same way as
the previous effort, because hardly anyone will use it. I see it as
an easier task to get the support traffic off debian-user to a place
where it can be handled alone, than it would be at this point to get
the off-topic posts off of debian-user.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 9:04 a.m., Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
>> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
>> purpose
> 
> 100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
> bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
> last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
> to present to new Debian users.
I totally agree but can't say for the six months as I've been on the
list for only 4 months. One thing I can agree is that it sends a bad
image to new Debian users, even more when we tell  them rudely that they
are going against a specific rule.
Not everyone will take the time to read the FAQ and guidelines entirely
before subscribing. In a ideal world, we'd all read the guidelines, FAQ
and all the documents before joining this list. But it's not what's
happening and it will never be.
Still, this doesn't justify being rude or lacking consideration for new
comers. I've been on mailing list before but that was 10 years ago and
those we're only local ones we created for the university. Some rules
developed by itself.
So when someone told be in a really direct manner and without more
explanation "no top posting", I didn't really understand what he meant
until I did a search for the term. I understood easily what it was,
because we had this rule but hadn't named it, we just explained it.
Yes it's easier when someone ask about "Devuan" to tell him in a quick
say "Go away", but is this really helpful ? I doubt...
What does it take as a time to explain why it may not be the best place
for this question ain't that much. Because this person asked the
question in good faith and we have to respect him. It may be a nice
acronym RTFM but it's far from being polite.
The world has changed and so does the user on this list. Some people may
say "I've been on this list for 20 years, was better before". Yes it was
different before but those are changes that goes with the fact that now
Linux is more democratic. Some distribution made good publicity (I think
of Ubuntu) and this made more people start using Linux, even ones that
weren't system admins or that weren't forced to use a Unix/Linux system
to run some specific application or services. And Debian itself got
easier to use, with a widespread support for most common hardware on the
x86/x64 platform.
Wasn't the goal of all this to get new users to Debian ? Don't we want
as much user as possible to use Debian ? So that they can also test the
software we all use and give us feedback, even discover bugs that didn't
pop up at us ?
We can't expect all those new users to be Cisco certified network
administrator or to have a master degree in computer science, being able
to write in assembly language, C/C++/Fortran and some Lisp too. We have
to accept those new users and remember that we also asked question that
seem stupid for others and we also asked question that the answer we're
in the first page of the manual.
If we can look at ourselves and that's not something that everyone seems
able to do. Or we can join the club of all the people nostalgic of the
soviet union and the 1970s and dream of the cold war but if we do so
then we must also go back using a 1200 baud modem and a teletype.
> 
> -Jim P.
> 

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jim Popovitch]

On Thu, 2021-08-19 at 07:23 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I've been subscribed to this list for a long time and I've seen a
> change in how it is being used, which I think is harmful to its core
> purpose

100% agree.  I'm another long time subscriber here and this is just
bonkers lately.  The noise has surpassed the signal for at least the
last 6 months.  Trying times perhaps, but geeze this is not a good image
to present to new Debian users.

-Jim P.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-19 2:18 a.m., deloptes wrote:
> Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> 
>> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
>> putting yourself on the *good* side.
>>
> 
> see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 
> 
>> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
>> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
>> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
>> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
>> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
>>
> 
> You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
> moral superiority syndrome.
> 
wow ! you seem really to have your mind sticking somewhere what does
politics has to do with this discussion ?

it's kind of awkward to talk against leftist when this list if for
cooperation and support, all of this without getting anything in return.
you seem a bit upset, is it possible to help you ?

you have something constructive to say ?

other than the fact that you seem to really dislike people who you call
*leftist*, I have serious doubt about your ability to discuss in a
civilized manner without resorting to personal insult.

accusing me of correcting someone and acting like you do is one type of
*laughable irony*
>> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
>> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
>> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...
> 
> This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
> I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
> discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
> for you and for your family especially children if you have such.
> 

go ahead and plonk me one more time. feels to me like reading a high
school teenager being pissed off *sorry for your family and children*
that's low level name calling that the only comment I can add... You
must be damn sad if you have all those emotions for everybody around

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 01:34:24AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.


I can't speak for Brian but I've been subscribed to this list for a long
time and I've seen a change in how it is being used, which I think is
harmful to its core purpose, and so I (and others) are trying to find a
way to fix that. With respect, you've only been active here for a very
short while, so you don't have the perspective that others do on the
problem.

People posting off-topic and going off on tangents has always happened.
What has changed is the frequency and duration of those tangents, which
are now drowning out everything else.


That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...


No decision has been made. The people coming here for help and having
their threads diverted with trips down memory lane have not "chosen" for
that to happen.



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[deloptes]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:

> You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
> putting yourself on the *good* side.
> 

see this is exactly the attitude I am reffering to. 

> What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
> over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
> giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
> acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
> itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.
> 

You see yourself in a role to correct someone ... typical for leftist with
moral superiority syndrome.

> That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
> ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
> was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

This post was totally unnecessary. And this is my problem with you.
I usually ignore what you write, but as this is in the focus of the
discussion, I write this only once and "plonk" you. I am sorry for that and
for you and for your family especially children if you have such.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-18 12:57 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
>> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>
>>> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
>>> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
>>> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
>>> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
>>> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
>>> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
>>> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
>>
>> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
>> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
>> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
>> off topic.
> 
> A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
> a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
> "sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
> past.
> 
>> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
>> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
>> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
>> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
>> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
>> (and "plonk" as little as possible).
> 
> I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
> inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
> But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
> attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
> 300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
> to *those* users?
> 
> I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
> be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
> it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.
> 
> Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
> debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
> assistance and support for Debian users.
> 

You seem pretty good a drawing a line between *good* and *bad*, always
putting yourself on the *good* side.

What if ? What if there wasn't any *bad* user ? You are the one bringing
over old subject that you consider off-topic. You seem really touched by
giving your self a role as governor of a mailing list or policing what's
acceptable and not. But don't seem to understand that the community
itself made the choice of having this list un-moderated.

That is, the people chose that it will remain like this. Even if they
ain't with all the good technical genius expertise you have. That's what
was decided. So maybe it's time you just accept it...

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

On 2021-08-17 7:04 p.m., Brian wrote:
> On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
>> lot 
>> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
> and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
> in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
> to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.
> 
>> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
>> puzzling 
>> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
>> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 
>> 120 
>> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
>> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
>> topic mail list.
> 
> This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
> immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
> any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).
> 
There's always the solution that if you ain't happy then create your own
community with moderated mailing list. If not, then enjoy what's offered
here and try to be positive.

-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



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Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Brian]

On Wed 18 Aug 2021 at 14:27:13 +0200, deloptes wrote:

> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> 
> > I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> > official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> > such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> > of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> > d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> > things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> > around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.
> 
> I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
> communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
> then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
> off topic.

A decent argument. Put with the observation that off-topic in
a -user thread can rapidly escalate, the idea of a separate 
"sin-bin" list is a non-starter. Also, it did not work in the
past.

> I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
> annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
> some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
> prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
> I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
> (and "plonk" as little as possible).

I hope so too. There is nothing wrong with some degree of social
inreraction on the list; it might be said to grease the wheels.
But think of the user who submits a technical query and those who
attempt to address it. Would an influx of posts on AA batteries,
300 baud modems and short-term memory be seen as being respectful
to *those* users?

I am not suggesting that a touch of off-topic should necessarily
be seen as disrespectful, but as a present campaign in the UK has
it - Whem the Fun Stops Stop.

Perhaps, in the final analysis, it doesn't matter. The good ship
debian-user will continue to naviagte the choppy seas of Community
assistance and support for Debian users.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[deloptes]

Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.

I do not think it will work, because it is against the logic how
communication work. We communicate in the same channel and go off topic and
then back to topic. It is not natural to change list because something goes
off topic.
I am also sorry for triggering some of the off topic here, but I am getting
annoyed from time to time by peoples attitude as well. There are
some "morally superior" users that try to impose their views. However I
prefer to stop as soon as possible to reduce the damage. 
I hope this list stays as is and people just learn to respect each other
(and "plonk" as little as possible).


-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 07:27:17 AM Dan Ritter wrote:
> I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
> have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
> their threads.

That sounds like a useful thing -- somebody could point out that a post is off-
topic and request that the OP (and responders) move the discussion there 
(including the original post).

(Or, of course, ideally the poster would recognize that a subject was off topic 
and post it to that list right from the start.)

> Would it thrive independently of that? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
> more so if all the subscribers of debian-user were automatically
> subscribed to debian-user-offtopic, and had to unsubscribe
> manually.

I like that idea also.  

Maybe also add a short blurb at the bottom of debian-user (like the 
unsubscribe blurb -- oh, wait, on this list that is in the headers and not 
immediately visible in my email client (List-Unsubscribe: ) -- I think it would take 
something more visible.

People who are willing to "consider" off topic questions could remain 
subscribed, people who wanted no part of off topic discussions could 
unsubscribe.

Hmm, not sure the idea is ready for prime time, but maybe still worth 
discussing / considering.,,

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Dan Ritter]

Jonathan Dowland wrote: 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 02:56:30PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> > lot
> > of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.
> 
> I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
> official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
> such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
> of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
> d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
> things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
> around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.

I don't think that's causal.

I think the primary use case of debian-user-offtopic would be to
have a place for people on debian-user to tell others to move
their threads.

Would it thrive independently of that? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps
more so if all the subscribers of debian-user were automatically
subscribed to debian-user-offtopic, and had to unsubscribe
manually.

-dsr-

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Aug 17, 2021 at 02:56:30PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a lot
of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.


I think the way forward this time would be to request one on the
official Debian mailing list server, rather than elsewhere.  But,
such a list will only serve its purpose if it gets used *instead*
of off-topic conversations on this list. Does anyone think that
d-community-offtopic served that purpose? My general feeling is
things are worse now than they were when d-community-offtopic was
around and active, but I'm not sure that this is causation.



--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Wishing for an off-topic mail list with debian-user participants (or most of them) (was: Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian])

[Brian]

On Tue 17 Aug 2021 at 14:56:30 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> Hmm, afaiac, it would be nice to have an off-topic list with the hopes of a 
> lot 
> of the people on debian-user might subscribe to it.

Nice? Really? There was one. It failed abysmally in its task. The boys
and girls post here what they want when they want. 150+ off-topic posts
in a recent thread, ranging from comments on user behaviour to plonking
to 300 baud modems. Self-discipline abandonned.

> Somewhat relevant to the subject of an off-topic mailing list, I'm now 
> puzzling 
> over why an NiMH AA battery tested to hold 18 maHrs seems to power an LED 
> flashilight for many hours longer than an NiMH AAA battery tested to hold 120 
> maHrs (ratio is like 24 hours to 3 hours -- how can that possibly be?  (I'd 
> give a few more details if I was actually askinjg the question on that off-
> topic mail list.

This paragrapgh illustrates my point. Something is suggested then taken
immediately off-topic. All in the space of a single mail. There isn't
any solution. Lie back and think of Debian :).

-- 
Brian.

-- 
Brian.