Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Phillip Deackes]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:59:01 -0700
Petro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So you agree with me that forcing commercial buildings to be
> handicap accessible is wrong? After all, they are being forced to
> do *major* redesigns of the buildings (much more time consuming and
> expensive than simply redesigning a web site) so a small percentage
> of extra people can get to them. 

No!!! Your analogy is all wrong - those with a disability have no choice,
the able-bodied can choose whether to use Linux or Windows. We have that
luxury.

In a later email to the list (I replied to Ben and the message went to the
German Debian User list) I wrote:

"An excellent piece of prose!! Cheers Ben - your arguments make a lot of
sense and I do agree with what you say. Maybe I hadn't realised the strong
connection between Microsoft and the non-display of certain web pages - I
suppose it is like the tip of an iceberg. I use Linux for all the reasons
you state and as head of ICT in a UK school I resist MS products where
possible. It could indeed be my cue to do something positive."

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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Petro]

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:22:14AM -0700, Phillip Deackes wrote:
> This message uses a character set that is not supported by the Internet
> Service.  To view the original message content,  open the attached
> message. If the text doesn't display correctly, save the attachment to
> disk, and then open it using a viewer that can display the original
> character set. <> 


> I am not interested in telling web designers that they need to re-design th=
> eir sites so that a small percentage of extra users can access them. I know=
>  they are wrong, but I just want to *use* the Internet to get things done.

So you agree with me that forcing commercial buildings to be
handicap accessible is wrong? After all, they are being forced to
do *major* redesigns of the buildings (much more time consuming and
expensive than simply redesigning a web site) so a small percentage
of extra people can get to them. 


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  Wendell Cochran quotation:
> 
> Even parts-supply houses have informed me, haughtily,
> that if I want to look or buy I must `upgrade' my browser.

CapitalOne learned on that one, too.  Their page used to tell you if you
were using Netscape 6, you had to "upgrade" to 4.7.  I told them that
really insulted people's intelligence, and they re-worded it.  I'm not
so vain as to think it was solely because of me, of course.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Wendell Cochran]

> Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:13:50 -0400
> Shawn McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  [SNIP SNIP]
> So they do track this stuff, and they do respond.  People complaining in
> mailing lists don't get it fixed, and people knuckling under and using
> proprietary browsers don't get it fixed, but people sending email DO get
> action.


Yes, reasoned complaints fail consistently only with spammists.

And so far I'm not having much success with the imbecile webmasters --
migod what a lot of 'em -- who design their pages for the sole apparent
purpose of impressing other webmasters.

Even parts-supply houses have informed me, haughtily,
that if I want to look or buy I must `upgrade' my browser.

Ream out the prospective customer!  That attitude, I contend seriously,
contributed markedly to the dot-com bust.

Wendell Cochran
West Seattle


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Gary Turner]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:42:57 +0100, Phillip Deackes wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:58:16 -0400
>Shawn McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> begin  Phillip Deackes quotation:

>Can anyone else confirm that I have a problem with message text not
>wrapping correctly?
>


"

"I have a PAL TV because I live in the UK and our terrestrial TV is
broadcast in the PAL format. I think PAL is better than NTSC as used
in..."

Your message, partially quoted above, was not wrapped properly.  All
others seemed to be fine.

--
gt
It is interesting to note that as one evil empire (generic) fell,
another Evil Empire (tm)  began its nefarious rise. -- me
Coincidence?  I think not.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  Phillip Deackes quotation:
> 
> A bunch of people who wanted to watch films and found they could get more
> VHS films than anything else.

That's AFTER VHS won, not before.

> There is something inherently wrong with the
> notion that the hardware is more important than the software.

There's something inherently wrong with the use of straw-man arguments,
too.

> I was one of
> those who bought into the Grundig/Philips V2000 format - and excellent it
> was too - but I now own two VHS VCRs because it would be pointless trying
> to keep going with Betamax or V2000 in a domestic situation.

I got you beat, I got burned twice; replaced my 3/4-inch Quasars with
Beta.  :-)

> I have a friend who has a really cheap car stereo. He drives around
> singing to his music while I can't bear to listen because the quality is
> so poor. Is he wrong?

FM is already established as a standard.  Internet Explorer web
extensions aren't there, yet.

> be history. The way web content is created is surely unimportant - I just
> want to view it.

And Microsoft wants you to not be able to unless you use Windows.  They
want to own patents on how it's created, so that you CAN'T view it with
anything else.

And you think that's not important.

> In the same way I am not concerned with the way the BBC
> puts together my TV image or the way my TV set decodes it.

You would be if it changed tomorrow, and you had to get new TVs.  And
the new ones only came in hot pink or lime green, because only one
company made them.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Phillip Deackes]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:22:27 -0400
Shawn McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, it does, because it is an excellent example; a bunch of sheep used
> VHS, and we all got stuck with inferior technology as a result.

A bunch of people who wanted to watch films and found they could get more
VHS films than anything else. There is something inherently wrong with the
notion that the hardware is more important than the software. I was one of
those who bought into the Grundig/Philips V2000 format - and excellent it
was too - but I now own two VHS VCRs because it would be pointless trying
to keep going with Betamax or V2000 in a domestic situation.

I have a friend who has a really cheap car stereo. He drives around
singing to his music while I can't bear to listen because the quality is
so poor. Is he wrong?

I know that nothing you or I say will change our respective views. The
issues we are discussing are but momentary and in no time at all they will
be history. The way web content is created is surely unimportant - I just
want to view it. In the same way I am not concerned with the way the BBC
puts together my TV image or the way my TV set decodes it. As long as the
end result gives me the quality and interest I desire I will view the
programmes. If these 'terrible' web pages look bad or do not fulfil their
purpose then it is on those criteria they should be judged not on the
basis of whether the web designer used a MS product in their production.

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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  Phillip Deackes quotation:
> 
> Huh? AFAIK my email messages conform to what is expected amongst Linux
> circles. I was not aware of a problem - you are the first to suggest it.

You've fixed it.  Maybe you changed an option in that one message?


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Phillip Deackes]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:58:16 -0400
Shawn McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> begin  Phillip Deackes quotation:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrap your text.

Huh? AFAIK my email messages conform to what is expected amongst Linux
circles. I was not aware of a problem - you are the first to suggest it.

I am using Sylpheed to compose messages which are then sent using Exim.
Can anyone else confirm that I have a problem with message text not
wrapping correctly?

Many thanks.

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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Dimitri Maziuk]

* Phillip Deackes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) spake thusly:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:51:36 -0700
> Jaye Inabnit ke6sls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > The last paragraph is indicative of the masses:  "I am not interested in
> > telling web designers ~."  Simply multiply that by your local census,
> > and soon it becomes apparent how horrible problems begin.
> > 
> > I *do* take the time to post notes to webmins when I hit a site I can
> > not access without forking over money to M$.  I don't have M$ on my box,
> > and I am going to keep it that way, but I still want to access the info
> > I am seeking.  I don't think that it is asking too much.
> > 
> > Apologies if I seem condescending, I don't mean to be.
> 
> Not at all. No offence taken. 
> 
> I am not a programmer. I am an end user. At work I use Windows and can
> access almost every web site going. At home I have problem after problem
> *for whatever reason*. 

So use windows, is that so hard?

> If you wish not to access sites written poorly, or using MS code, then you
> are free to make that choice. Let's have a web browser which accesses all
> web sites and I can have my choice too.

*You* want that choice, so *you* go write that web browser.

> The point I am trying to make is that if a large percentage of the world
> is using MS IE-specific code in spite of the best efforts of yourself and
> others, it is surely far easier for Linux programmers to change whatever
> is needed in Mozilla, Galeon et al. 

How do you know, you said you weren't a programmer?

... Whether
> we like it or not certain methods or techniques become the norm due to
> sheer weight of numbers using them. This is the way of the world.

But it is not my way.

People use computers to do stuff. If your computer does not do 
stuff (where stuff = "view certain web pages", for example), why 
use it? Use the one that does.

Dima
-- 
"Mirrors and copulation are abominable because they increase the number of
entities."-- corollary to Occam's Razor


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  Phillip Deackes quotation:
> 
> sheer weight of numbers using them. This is the way of the world. The best
> methods do not necessarily win through - the Video2000/Betamax/VHS issue
> immediately springs to mind where the poorest quality format won the
> battle.

Yes, it does, because it is an excellent example; a bunch of sheep used
VHS, and we all got stuck with inferior technology as a result.

And that is why you should resist being forced into using inferior
technology for marketing reasons, and make noise to try to get the
madness to stop BEFORE the bad guys win.

They haven't, yet, on web pages.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  Jaye Inabnit ke6sls quotation:
> 
> I *do* take the time to post notes to webmins when I hit a site I can not 
> access without forking over money to M$.  I don't have M$ on my box, and I am 
> going to keep it that way, but I still want to access the info I am seeking.  
> I don't think that it is asking too much.

For a long time I've seen people bitching about Capital One blocking
Mozilla.

I sent them an email complaining about it.  They sent me back a
response, saying that they'd added support for Opera, and that they were
planning to support as many people as they can, and would forward my
email to the appropriate group.

So they do track this stuff, and they do respond.  People complaining in
mailing lists don't get it fixed, and people knuckling under and using
proprietary browsers don't get it fixed, but people sending email DO get
action.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  Phillip Deackes quotation:



Wrap your text.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[John Habermann]

Thanks for that Karsten. I just hadn't installed the kdebase-crypto package 
for some reason. Still find that it had some difficulty with some of the 
government department sites that use active server pages. But then I have to 
tell opera to identify itself as MSIE 5.0 in order for it to load those pages 
anyway. Otherwise I get a little message saying error and telling me to close 
the application and try again. Changing the id konqueror gives to the site 
hasn't made any difference. In galeon the first time you load the page you 
get the same error message but then if you just reload the page it will work. 
Have emailed the webmaster for the site so will see what they have to say.

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:42, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Tue, Apr 09, 2002, John Habermann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:32, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
> > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:49:01 +0100
> > >
> > > "Phillip Deackes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Depends whether you do 'real-world' bowsing or not. There is no
> > > > browser in Linux which can correctly display all web sites thrown at
> > > > it. AFAIK Konqueror, for example, can't display secure web pages,
> > >
> > > That's not true. I'm using it for all my https:// browsing, although it
> > > is a little strict on what it thinks is a valid certificate.
> >
> > How have you done that. I just seem to get told that https is not
> > supported when I try to use konqueror (2.2.2 in Debian Unstable) to view
> > https pages.
>
> You need non-US in /etc/apt/sources-list and the kdebase-crypto package
> installed.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Phillip Deackes]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 07:51:36 -0700
Jaye Inabnit ke6sls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The last paragraph is indicative of the masses:  "I am not interested in
> telling web designers ~."  Simply multiply that by your local census,
> and soon it becomes apparent how horrible problems begin.
> 
> I *do* take the time to post notes to webmins when I hit a site I can
> not access without forking over money to M$.  I don't have M$ on my box,
> and I am going to keep it that way, but I still want to access the info
> I am seeking.  I don't think that it is asking too much.
> 
> Apologies if I seem condescending, I don't mean to be.

Not at all. No offence taken. 

I am not a programmer. I am an end user. At work I use Windows and can
access almost every web site going. At home I have problem after problem
*for whatever reason*. I share my house with a friend and he often uses my
computer - it is very hard trying to explain why we are using Linux when
he cannot access so may web pages. He is certainly not interested in the
slightest what a web designer uses to create his/her web site - he just
wants to access the information on it. If I suggested to him that he
contact web designers to complain about their web sites he would think I
was an idiot - 'I can access them using Windows, so what's the problem?'
would be his retort.

If you wish not to access sites written poorly, or using MS code, then you
are free to make that choice. Let's have a web browser which accesses all
web sites and I can have my choice too.

The point I am trying to make is that if a large percentage of the world
is using MS IE-specific code in spite of the best efforts of yourself and
others, it is surely far easier for Linux programmers to change whatever
is needed in Mozilla, Galeon et al. so that these pages can be accessed
than to change the habits of the web-designers around the world. Whether
we like it or not certain methods or techniques become the norm due to
sheer weight of numbers using them. This is the way of the world. The best
methods do not necessarily win through - the Video2000/Betamax/VHS issue
immediately springs to mind where the poorest quality format won the
battle.

I do agree with you in principle, but in practice it is not you or me who
decides what people use to design web-sites.

Take care. 

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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Jaye Inabnit ke6sls]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wednesday 10 April 2002 03:22 am, Phillip Deackes wrote:
> I am afraid I cannot be so arrogant about this. What I do on the Internet
> is not always to do with Linux, or with other such highbrow subjects.
> Sometimes I just want to play, or do some shopping. Yes, I have visited the
> Argos site, the Littlewoods Extra site and so on. No, they do not work well
> in Linux - but will not stop using these sites because I could be cutting
> off my nose to spite my face.
>
> I am not interested in telling web designers that they need to re-design
> their sites so that a small percentage of extra users can access them. I
> know they are wrong, but I just want to *use* the Internet to get things
> done.

Greetings:

The last paragraph is indicative of the masses:  "I am not interested in 
telling web designers ~."  Simply multiply that by your local census, and 
soon it becomes apparent how horrible problems begin.

I *do* take the time to post notes to webmins when I hit a site I can not 
access without forking over money to M$.  I don't have M$ on my box, and I am 
going to keep it that way, but I still want to access the info I am seeking.  
I don't think that it is asking too much.

Apologies if I seem condescending, I don't mean to be.

tatah
- -- 

Jaye Inabnit\ARS ke6sls\/A GNU-Debian linux user\/ http://www.qsl.net/ke6sls
If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. I SHOUT JUST FOR FUN.
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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Phillip Deackes]

> on Tue, Apr 09, 2002, Phillip Deackes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Define "correctly display"?  For standard HTML, there's no problem.
> Ditto, if you want to abuse yourself by installing the plugins, most
> flash, Java, and Javascript, though I disable these, and don't patronize
> sites requiring same.  Frankly, I don't think I lose much in the
> bargain.

> It's amazing watching the cattle lining up for slaughter.  C'est la vie.



I have a PAL TV because I live in the UK and our terrestrial TV is broadcast in 
the PAL format. I think PAL is better than NTSC as used in the States, Japan 
etc.. If I move to the US I will take my PAL TV with me because it is better. I 
may only be able to watch PAL Videos, or the output from other kit I take with 
me, but what the hell - PAL is better. I would like to run my car on LPG. The 
fact that there are no service-stations near me selling it shouldn't matter - 
it is better for the environment and I think all cars should run on it. Hey, I 
might get it converted tomorrow.

I am afraid I cannot be so arrogant about this. What I do on the Internet is 
not always to do with Linux, or with other such highbrow subjects. Sometimes I 
just want to play, or do some shopping. Yes, I have visited the Argos site, the 
Littlewoods Extra site and so on. No, they do not work well in Linux - but will 
not stop using these sites because I could be cutting off my nose to spite my 
face.

I am not interested in telling web designers that they need to re-design their 
sites so that a small percentage of extra users can access them. I know they 
are wrong, but I just want to *use* the Internet to get things done.

If my washing machine only washes certain items of clothing and other washing 
machines wash much more, then the answer is clear. The situation with Linux 
browsers is not so bad that such a choice is forced on us, but it is 
irritating. If the world and his dog is writing web sites to suit MS IE, then 
how does it help us to take the moral highground and refuse to budge? As a 
user, it helps me very little.

Heck, if a stable version of IE was released for Linux I would use it. I might 
even buy it - AND I hate MS!

-- 
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Using Debian Linux


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Apr 09, 2002, John Habermann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:32, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:49:01 +0100
> > "Phillip Deackes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > > Depends whether you do 'real-world' bowsing or not. There is no
> > > browser in Linux which can correctly display all web sites thrown at
> > > it. AFAIK Konqueror, for example, can't display secure web pages,
> >
> > That's not true. I'm using it for all my https:// browsing, although it is
> > a little strict on what it thinks is a valid certificate.
> 
> How have you done that. I just seem to get told that https is not supported 
> when I try to use konqueror (2.2.2 in Debian Unstable) to view https pages. 

You need non-US in /etc/apt/sources-list and the kdebase-crypto package
installed.


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Karsten M. Self]

on Tue, Apr 09, 2002, Phillip Deackes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:22:25 +0200
> Luca Pasquali <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Galeon is the only substitute that I've in mind by now, links rox :-)
> > keta
> 
> Depends whether you do 'real-world' bowsing or not. There is no browser in
> Linux which can correctly display all web sites thrown at it. 

Define "correctly display"?  For standard HTML, there's no problem.
Ditto, if you want to abuse yourself by installing the plugins, most
flash, Java, and Javascript, though I disable these, and don't patronize
sites requiring same.  Frankly, I don't think I lose much in the
bargain.

The unattainables are largely sites with ActiveX controls, and those
relying on or utilizing media formats not supported under GNU/Linux.
This gets to the question though -- are these "Web sites", in the sense
of pages displayed using hypertext transfer protocol per W3C standards,
or are they proprietary application data transfer platforms, locked to
Legacy MS Windows-centric designs.  And where to such sites find
themselves if 40% of the Web, represented by AOL, turns left at
Albequerque?

The other incompatibles are sites which are specifically locked into
delivering content _only_ to a specified browser set.  I note that many
of these sites also lock out web spidersincluding Google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=shop+site%3Awww.argos.co.uk

(Argos is a large UK-based retailer).

In general, setting the user-agent header bypasses the bulk of these
blocking actions, leading to additional navel-gazing over the
significance of weblog stats reporting high numbers for Legacy MS
Windows-centric browsers


> AFAIK Konqueror, for example, can't display secure web pages, 

Wrong.

In fact, Konqueror SSL support was reliable for quite some time before
Galeon / Mozilla PSM was generally available in Woody.  One of the few
uses I *had* for Galeon was to browse SSL sites.

> ruling it out for things like on-line banking etc.. I need to use
> Opera, Galeon and Netscape 6 to cover most sites, and Netscape 4 is an
> indispensible backup because it usually displays those pages the
> others won't and the print quality is usually spot on.
> 
> I have had many an argument with Linux zealots in the Opera newsgroups who
> tell me that Shockwave is a waste of bandwidth, that 'all these graphics'
> are totally unneccesary etc. etc. ad nauseum. I understand what they say,
> but that *is* the internet for most people, and they (and I) want to do
> real things which may have nothing to do with computers.

There are several very real reasons to promote use of non-Flash site
design:

  - Accessibility -- mandated under the ADA in the US.
  - Search index access.
  - Vendor lock in.

It's amazing watching the cattle lining up for slaughter.  C'est la vie.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Selfhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
   The Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act:
 Because the Republicans had Enron.
   http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cbdtpa/hollings.s2048.032102.html


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[John Habermann]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:32, Tim Dijkstra wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:49:01 +0100
>
> "Phillip Deackes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:22:25 +0200
> >
> > Luca Pasquali <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Galeon is the only substitute that I've in mind by now, links rox
> > >
> > > :-) keta
> >
> > Depends whether you do 'real-world' bowsing or not. There is no
> > browser in Linux which can correctly display all web sites thrown at
> > it. AFAIK Konqueror, for example, can't display secure web pages,
>
> That's not true. I'm using it for all my https:// browsing, although it is
> a little strict on what it thinks is a valid certificate.

How have you done that. I just seem to get told that https is not supported 
when I try to use konqueror (2.2.2 in Debian Unstable) to view https pages. I 
can't quite figure out how I am supposed to get the crypto working. View --> 
Security just tells me that SSL is not supported in this build of KDE.
I use konqueror for most of my browsing but always have to switch when I view 
any encrypted sites. In fact the only thing I can get my banking to work in 
is Netscape 4.77 and in getting True Type fonts to work all text in the 
netscape menus is now just little squares. Not that it worries me that much.
I would be quite interested in hearing what you have to do to get ssl to work 
in Konqueror.



> > ruling it out for things like on-line banking etc.. I need to use
> > Opera, Galeon and Netscape 6 to cover most sites, and Netscape 4 is an
>
> Unfortunately this is true, you need multiple browsers if you want to see
> everything (konqueror helps to give you a bigger range), but then you've
> also got sites that refuse to work with anything other than ie. That's only
> because there are a lot of worthless/lazy web builders out there. If you
> try it isn't really that hard to let something comply with w3c standards
> and to write a script that works on both ie and mozilla (and the sort). But
> it's a fact that most web builders only think ie. The one thing you can do
> is try to make the people who paid for such a site understand that they
> paid for a broken product.
>
> > Galeon is probably the best at the moment - but it has a way to
> > go.
>
> I personally like konqueror, but it too isn't there yet...
>
> Grts,
>
> Tim


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Ivar Alm]

No clue about the Linux versions, but I use it on my Win machine, and it is 
a major upgrade. The Java support are more stable. Even the upgrade from 
6.0 to 6.01 was good.

It is definetely worth a download.
//I

At 18:14 2002-04-09, François Chenais wrote:

Thanks a lot all

Is the last opera (6beta1) better than the version 5 ?

François

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:04:58 -0500
Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM +0200, François Chenais wrote:
>
> > I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for 
replacing

> > Netscape.
>
> Opera is the best I've found (though Mozilla is coming along
> nicely).
>
> --
> Grant Edwards
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> --
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>
>


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**
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Umeå, Sweden  ! Do you really want to go there?  !
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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[François]

Thanks a lot all

Is the last opera (6beta1) better than the version 5 ?

François

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:04:58 -0500
Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM +0200, François Chenais wrote:
> 
> > I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for replacing
> > Netscape.
> 
> Opera is the best I've found (though Mozilla is coming along
> nicely).
> 
> -- 
> Grant Edwards
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> -- 
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Tim Dijkstra]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 07:49:01 +0100
"Phillip Deackes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:22:25 +0200
> Luca Pasquali <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Galeon is the only substitute that I've in mind by now, links rox
> > :-) keta
> 
> Depends whether you do 'real-world' bowsing or not. There is no
> browser in Linux which can correctly display all web sites thrown at
> it. AFAIK Konqueror, for example, can't display secure web pages,
That's not true. I'm using it for all my https:// browsing, although it is a 
little strict on what it thinks is a valid certificate.

> ruling it out for things like on-line banking etc.. I need to use
> Opera, Galeon and Netscape 6 to cover most sites, and Netscape 4 is an
Unfortunately this is true, you need multiple browsers if you want to see 
everything (konqueror helps to give you a bigger range), but then you've also 
got sites that refuse to work with anything other than ie. 
That's only because there are a lot of worthless/lazy web builders out there. 
If you try it isn't really that hard to let something comply with w3c standards 
and to write a script that works on both ie and mozilla (and the sort). But 
it's a fact that most web builders only think ie. The one thing you can do is 
try to make the people who paid for such a site understand that they paid for a 
broken product.
 
> Galeon is probably the best at the moment - but it has a way to
> go.
I personally like konqueror, but it too isn't there yet...

Grts,

Tim


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Phillip Deackes]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:22:25 +0200
Luca Pasquali <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Galeon is the only substitute that I've in mind by now, links rox :-)
> keta

Depends whether you do 'real-world' bowsing or not. There is no browser in
Linux which can correctly display all web sites thrown at it. AFAIK
Konqueror, for example, can't display secure web pages, ruling it out for
things like on-line banking etc.. I need to use Opera, Galeon and Netscape
6 to cover most sites, and Netscape 4 is an indispensible backup because
it usually displays those pages the others won't and the print quality is
usually spot on.

I have had many an argument with Linux zealots in the Opera newsgroups who
tell me that Shockwave is a waste of bandwidth, that 'all these graphics'
are totally unneccesary etc. etc. ad nauseum. I understand what they say,
but that *is* the internet for most people, and they (and I) want to do
real things which may have nothing to do with computers.

I long for a Linux browser which I can use for everything. I agree that
Galeon is probably the best at the moment - but it has a way to go.

-- 
Phillip Deackes
Using Debian Linux

/"\   
\ /   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
 XAGAINST HTML MAIL AND NEWS
/ \ 


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Karsten M. Self]

on Mon, Apr 08, 2002, Fran?ois Chenais ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Hello, 
> 
>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for replacing
>   Netscape.

Briefly:  Galeon (GUI), w3m (console), dillo or light (lightweight GUI).

For the longer view:

http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/browsers.html

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Selfhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
   NPR:  Radio for between the ears:  http://www.npr.org/


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Paul F. Pearson]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Colin Watson wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM +0200, François Chenais wrote:
> > I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for
> > replacing Netscape.
> 
> Nobody's mentioned the slightly silly alternative so far, so try w3m
> with w3m-img in an xterm.
> 
> (Seriously, I actually use this for virtually all my graphical web
> browsing at home now, where I'm a bit too low on memory to comfortably
> run Mozilla and build packages at the same time.)

(Coming in to the middle of the discussion)

I presume someone's mentioned Opera? It's not open source, but it's pretty 
darn good.

-- 
Paul F. Pearson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://home.hiwaay.net/~ppearson/
"Lord heal our land. Father heal our land. Hear our cry and turn our nation 
back to You" - Heal Our Land, _Magnify The Lord_ (Integrity Music)


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Grant Edwards]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM +0200, François Chenais wrote:

>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for replacing
>   Netscape.

Opera is the best I've found (though Mozilla is coming along
nicely).

-- 
Grant Edwards
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Colin Watson]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM +0200, François Chenais wrote:
>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for
>   replacing Netscape.

Nobody's mentioned the slightly silly alternative so far, so try w3m
with w3m-img in an xterm.

(Seriously, I actually use this for virtually all my graphical web
browsing at home now, where I'm a bit too low on memory to comfortably
run Mozilla and build packages at the same time.)

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Tim Dijkstra]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:44:12 +0200
"François Chenais" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello, 
> 
>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for 
>   replacing Netscape.
> 
Then go for...

konqueror!


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RE: alternative web browser to netscape

[Luca Pasquali]

Galeon is the only substitute that I've in mind by now, links rox :-)
keta

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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Shawn McMahon]

begin  quoting what François Chenais said on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM 
+0200:
> 
>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for replacing
>   Netscape.

If you haven't found one yet, you aren't looking very hard.

apt-get install mozilla galeon



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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Vincent Lefevre]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12 +0200, François Chenais wrote:
>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for replacing
>   Netscape.

Mozilla.

-- 
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validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International
des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc.
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA


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Re: alternative web browser to netscape

[Erik van der Meulen]

On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:44:12PM +0200, Fran?ois Chenais wrote:

>   I'm under Woody and looking for an alternate web browser for replacing
>   Netscape.

Go for Galeon! Beats anything I have been on the web with to date!

--
  Erik van der Meulen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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