Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:49:12 +0100, Lisi wrote in message <201204111549.12321.lisi.re...@gmail.com>: > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 17:07:16 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:28:59 +0100, Lisi wrote in message > > > > <201204041128.59935.lisi.re...@gmail.com>: > > > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages > > > > by default. > > > > > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. > > > > ..and not "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installations* > > recommended packages by default."? ;o) > > > > ..no "has" is a _wee_ bit different from your "Note that since > > Lenny, apt-get *installed* recommended packages by default." ;o) > > > > Arnt - > > This appears to be aimed at me, but I cannot make out what you are > trying to say. > > I certainly never said "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installed* > recommended packages by default." as you appear to be saying that I > did. ..well, I must admit I do remember trying to be nuanced and then getting sidetracked by another amusement. ;o) > And "installations" is a noun not a verb. ..now that would depend on what kinda grammar you refer to, ;o), I boycotted what I call "classic grammar" from day one in grade 4, in favor of my own "language ear", and later I was eminently pleased to name an AI grammar method coded in Java that I was shown, "associative grammar", for the way the program was able to recognise and associate various moral etc concepts with words and sentences, that came from a random web news story on Clinton and Monica Levinsky back when the neo-Cons were trying to impeach him. ..it used 3 classes of words, "object", "subject" and "action" AFAIR, and it was meant to try predict stock market prices by sniffing out trend triggers off the web and from news stories. "Version 1" did that without using the associative grammar, "it merely counted the words." ;oD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120412235650.6ca1a...@nb6.lan
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wednesday 04 April 2012 17:07:16 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:28:59 +0100, Lisi wrote in message > > <201204041128.59935.lisi.re...@gmail.com>: > > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by > > > default. > > > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. > > ..and not "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installations* > recommended packages by default."? ;o) > > ..no "has" is a _wee_ bit different from your "Note that since > Lenny, apt-get *installed* recommended packages by default." ;o) > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. Arnt - This appears to be aimed at me, but I cannot make out what you are trying to say. I certainly never said "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installed* recommended packages by default." as you appear to be saying that I did. And "installations" is a noun not a verb. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204111549.12321.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:28:59 +0100, Lisi wrote in message <201204041128.59935.lisi.re...@gmail.com>: > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by > > default. > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. ..and not "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installations* recommended packages by default."? ;o) ..no "has" is a _wee_ bit different from your "Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installed* recommended packages by default." ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120404180716.2234d...@nb6.lan
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 08:28:33PM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote: > funny. Now if it was a picture of two hippos in a river... that would > make perfect sense. :-) What about the poor hippo who kept swimming in circles after they kicked him off the hippo campus? -- "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." -- Napoleon Bonaparte -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120407235019.GA19625@tal
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Saturday 07 April 2012 11:28:33 Scott Ferguson wrote: > On 07/04/12 19:54, Lisi wrote: > > On Saturday 07 April 2012 00:39:58 Scott Ferguson wrote: > >>> That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. > >>> It is quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave > >>> out the words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses > >>> some of the intended meaning. > >>> > >>> Lisi > > Re-editing so that it resembles the post you didn't understand:- > ===re-insert start=== > > >>> One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. > >> > >> http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 > > ===re-insert end= > > >> That comment is tediously laboured attempt at humour in a monetising > >> "story" ripped off from another April Fools joke. Any relevance to > >> anything is entirely coincidental. > > > > Sorry, don't understand. > > Which bit don't you understand - the comment I was referring to (it's > the comment in the link Chris inserted) or my comment on the comment the > link referenced? Thanks, Scott. That makes sense now! I really must try to get more sleep. ;-) Lisi Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204071553.58564.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On 07/04/12 19:54, Lisi wrote: > On Saturday 07 April 2012 00:39:58 Scott Ferguson wrote: >>> That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. >>> It is quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave >>> out the words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses >>> some of the intended meaning. >>> >>> Lisi Re-editing so that it resembles the post you didn't understand:- ===re-insert start=== >>> One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. >> http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 ===re-insert end= >> >> That comment is tediously laboured attempt at humour in a monetising >> "story" ripped off from another April Fools joke. Any relevance to >> anything is entirely coincidental. > > Sorry, don't understand. Which bit don't you understand - the comment I was referring to (it's the comment in the link Chris inserted) or my comment on the comment the link referenced? > > Lisi > > I couldn't see the connection with the post and didn't realise it's insertion in the thread was meant to be a joke (I didn't read Chris's later post explaining it was meant to be a joke until, oddly, later). I still don't get why inserting it into the thread was meant to be funny. Now if it was a picture of two hippos in a river... that would make perfect sense. :-) Kind regards -- Iceweasel/Firefox/Chrome/Chromium/Iceape/IE extensions for finding answers to questions about Debian:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f8016d1.7000...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Saturday 07 April 2012 00:39:58 Scott Ferguson wrote: > > That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. > > It is quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave > > out the words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses > > some of the intended meaning. > > > > Lisi > > That comment is tediously laboured attempt at humour in a monetising > "story" ripped off from another April Fools joke. Any relevance to > anything is entirely coincidental. Sorry, don't understand. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204071054.16564.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Friday 06 April 2012 23:43:37 Chris Bannister wrote: > > > > One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) > > > > > > http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 > > > > That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. > > It is > > It was supposed to be a joke. :( I didn't snip severly enough. I am, I'm afraid, missing a joke-detecting radar. So blame my inability to detect a joke, not your own snipping. The first French I ever learnt was "Vous prenez les choses au pied de la lettre". (You take things too litterally.) 57 years later, I still do. :-( Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204071050.28482.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Sat, 7 Apr 2012, Chris Bannister wrote: AIUI, no one knows *yet* whether aptitude or apt-get will be preferred for Wheezy until the usual testing takes place near the time of actual release. look at this (from the Debian Project News, 23 Jan 2012) http://www.perrier.eu.org/weblog/2012/01/14#aptitude-revival -- Pierre Frenkiel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.deb.2.00.1204070838260.6...@pfr2.frenkiel-hure.net
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On 07/04/12 05:54, Lisi wrote: > On Friday 06 April 2012 20:34:28 Chris Bannister wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38:29AM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote: >>> On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote: On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since > Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to > perform system installation and major system upgrades. Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? >>> >>> "since" makes that redundant. >>> One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) >> >> http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 >> >> -- >> "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." >>-- Napoleon Bonaparte > > That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. It is > quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave out the > words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses some of the > intended meaning. > > Lisi > > That comment is tediously laboured attempt at humour in a monetising "story" ripped off from another April Fools joke. Any relevance to anything is entirely coincidental. Kind regards -- Iceweasel/Firefox/Chrome/Chromium/Iceape/IE extensions for finding answers to questions about Debian:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f7f7ece.9030...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On 07/04/12 05:34, Chris Bannister wrote: > > http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 > You shouldn't have eaten those mushrooms. Kind regards -- Iceweasel/Firefox/Chrome/Chromium/Iceape/IE extensions for finding answers to questions about Debian:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f7f7ce8.2040...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 08:54:47PM +0100, Lisi wrote: > On Friday 06 April 2012 20:34:28 Chris Bannister wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38:29AM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote: > > > On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote: > > > > On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > >> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since > > > >> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to > > > >> perform system installation and major system upgrades. > > > > > > > > Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? > > > > > > "since" makes that redundant. > > > One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) > > > > http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 > > That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. It is It was supposed to be a joke. :( I didn't snip severly enough. Scott Ferguson wrote: One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) Chris Bannister should have written: Not too brief or: http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 -- "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." -- Napoleon Bonaparte -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120406224337.GB24134@tal
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Friday 06 April 2012 21:38:44 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Vi, 06 apr 12, 20:54:47, Lisi wrote: > > That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. > > It is quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave > > out the words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses > > some of the intended meaning. > > Debian documentation is generally written in US English, does the above > still apply? I have done some Googling. It appears that the present tense _can_ sometimes be used with "since" in the USA. None-the-less, in the USA the perfect tense with since is perfectly acceptable, which means that the perfect tense would be OK in both the USA and the UK. So, you are right to ask the question, Andrei. But using the perfect would upset no-one, whereas using the present tense would. ;-) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204062156.17567.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Vi, 06 apr 12, 20:54:47, Lisi wrote: > > That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. It is > quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave out the > words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses some of the > intended meaning. Debian documentation is generally written in US English, does the above still apply? Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 12:35:00AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Mi, 04 apr 12, 02:01:41, Chris Bannister wrote: > > > > For a start it is possibly all just hot air unless it is discussed on > > the debian-doc list and/or a patch submitted against the debian-faq > > package. I know that you are involved in translations and hence have > > some influence/knowledge so I suggest: > > I already offered to send a patch :) > > > Note: Starting with Squeeze, apt-get now installs recommended packages > > by default and is the preferred program to perform system installation > > and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive > > package management. > > I like the simplicity of it, but it's not correct as it is now (apt-get > installs recommends since lenny). Let me try to rephrase it: OK. > Note that apt-get installs recommended packages by default since > Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform > system installation and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be > preferred for interactive package management. Is the point of "installing recommended packages by default" related to apt-get being the preferred program for "major system upgrades". That is, do they need to be in the same paragraph? AIUI, no one knows *yet* whether aptitude or apt-get will be preferred for Wheezy until the usual testing takes place near the time of actual release. So: Note: Starting with Lenny, apt-get has installed recommended packages by default. For Squeeze it is the preferred program to perform system installation and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive package management. Is it *really* an FAQ? -- "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." -- Napoleon Bonaparte -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120406201529.GH15055@tal
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Friday 06 April 2012 20:34:28 Chris Bannister wrote: > On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38:29AM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote: > > On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote: > > > On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > >> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since > > >> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to > > >> perform system installation and major system upgrades. > > > > > > Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? > > > > "since" makes that redundant. > > One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) > > http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 > > -- > "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." >-- Napoleon Bonaparte That is about spelling, not grammar. Since requires the perfect tense. It is quite simply wrong in English to say "since installs". Leave out the words "since Lenny", and "installs" becomes correct, but loses some of the intended meaning. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204062054.47999.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wed, Apr 04, 2012 at 11:38:29AM +1000, Scott Ferguson wrote: > On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote: > > On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > >> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since > >> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform > >> system installation and major system upgrades. > > > > Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? > > "since" makes that redundant. > One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) http://www.dailywritingtips.com/?p=4904#comment-303296 -- "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." -- Napoleon Bonaparte -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120406193428.GG15055@tal
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
Am Donnerstag, 5. April 2012 schrieb Lisi: > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 18:58:07 Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi: > > > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages > > > > by > > > > > > > > default. > > > > > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. > > > > Why? It still does. > > Yes, that is why it should be in the perfect. It did and still does. > The perfect tense in English describes a present state due to a past > action, and is in many ways a present tense rather than a past one. > "Installs" excludes the past, "has installed" includes past and > present. This is one of the many English tenses/moods which is > difficult for non-native speakers to understand, let alone get right. > > "Since Lenny apt-get installs" is wrong grammatically in English. (You > and I can discuss this off-list if you like, Andrei.) No thanks. Whatever is correct english. I am no native speaker. If perfect tense - I darkly remember something like that from my english lessons in school quite some time ago - also includes the present I am fine with it. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204051324.37178.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wednesday 04 April 2012 19:00:44 Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi: > > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 12:14:55 Scott Ferguson wrote: > > > ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended > > > packages by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though > > > it's correct. > > > > What is wrong with : > > > > Apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default. > > How long? Maybe it stops doing so tomorrow? > > I am perfectly fine with "installs". Thats what it does up to do today. > Since Lenny says since then, but past tense is IMHO misleading since apt- > get still does it. Of course I can write: > > apt-get has installed recommended packages since Lenny. It still installs > recommended packages in Squeeze. It is likely that it will install > recommended packages in Wheezy. And heck it might even do that in Wheezy > +1. > > Now seriously, I prefer the one sentence version of it with "installs". But it is grammatically incorrect in English. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204050001.53301.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wednesday 04 April 2012 18:58:07 Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi: > > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by > > > > > > default. > > > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. > > Why? It still does. Yes, that is why it should be in the perfect. It did and still does. The perfect tense in English describes a present state due to a past action, and is in many ways a present tense rather than a past one. "Installs" excludes the past, "has installed" includes past and present. This is one of the many English tenses/moods which is difficult for non-native speakers to understand, let alone get right. "Since Lenny apt-get installs" is wrong grammatically in English. (You and I can discuss this off-list if you like, Andrei.) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204042344.04517.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi: > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 12:14:55 Scott Ferguson wrote: > > ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended > > packages by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though > > it's correct. > > What is wrong with : > > Apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default. How long? Maybe it stops doing so tomorrow? I am perfectly fine with "installs". Thats what it does up to do today. Since Lenny says since then, but past tense is IMHO misleading since apt- get still does it. Of course I can write: apt-get has installed recommended packages since Lenny. It still installs recommended packages in Squeeze. It is likely that it will install recommended packages in Wheezy. And heck it might even do that in Wheezy +1. Now seriously, I prefer the one sentence version of it with "installs". -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204042000.44363.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
Am Mittwoch, 4. April 2012 schrieb Lisi: > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by > > > > default. > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. Why? It still does. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204041958.07419.mar...@lichtvoll.de
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wednesday 04 April 2012 12:14:55 Scott Ferguson wrote: > ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended packages > by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though it's correct. What is wrong with : Apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default. Why, at this stage and now the aim is clarity, not leave out the "since Lenny"? The page could be dated, so that it is clear that it does not refer to e.g. 2005, for the benefit of those who cannot cope with advice given some years ago conflicting with advice given now. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204041228.19729.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On 04/04/12 20:28, Lisi wrote: > On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: >> Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by >> default. > > ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. > > ;-) > Lisi > > Even trickier - since Lenny developers have been much more cautious about "recommending" packages. Since Lenny SOE engineers have not had to modify apt.conf so unnecessary and unwanted packages weren't automatically installed as "recommended" (Sarge and Etch had problems in that respect). So it's not just a line in apt.conf that changed with Lenny becoming stable. Oh, and... ... since Lenny, apt-get will continue to install recommended packages by default. So I believe "has" is redundant, even though it's correct. Kind regards -- Iceweasel/Firefox/Chrome/Chromium/Iceape/IE extensions for finding answers to questions about Debian:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f7c2d2f.30...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On 04/04/12 19:01, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Mi, 04 apr 12, 11:38:29, Scott Ferguson wrote: >> My suggestions:- >> >> 1. rephrased for clarity, but hardly succin*c*t. >> Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended[*1] packages by default. >> Beginning with the release of Squeeze[*2], apt is the recommended >> program to perform system installation and major system upgrades. >> >> 2. How I'd write it:- >> Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major >> system upgrades.[*3] >> >> 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation >> in their native language. > > Not fair, most languages don't have enough contributors to translate the > documentation, and translations may have issues themselves. That's a problem that requires solving, the alternative is to expect people to master a second language. That *is not fair*. > >> [*1] tempting to treat that as a noun :-) > > I see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be too much jargon? IMO Yes (too much jargon). Best to keep it simple. Footnotes could be used for those who don't understand what "recommended" means in the context of Debian packaging Is the question "which tool to upgrade?" or "which tool is best to install packages?" They both have correct answers, but only the second question has multiple correct answers. My preference is "drill up" for detail in this instance (the basics are most easily accessed). It's like instructions for operating a vending machine as opposed to a manual for building one. Developer docs and mans should be drill down for simple. > >> [*2] Surely outdated advice for archived releases belongs in the >> archives. IMO counter arguments don't belong in documentation, they >> usually only appear there as a futile attempt to quiet the trolls. > > Do you mean the mention of aptitude? I don't see it as a counter > argument, but a genuine recommendation. As mentioned elsewhere in this > thread, it's very useful for me and probably others too. No. I meant the historical context (before, since, etc). Aptitude works well for many people - as do other package managers. Are any but apt relevant in this particular context? If I were writing instructions for a plant label on how to pot the plant out - I'll recommend using a spade for digging a hole. Other implements can be used to dig holes, and in some situations are better than (some) spades, and then there are different spades but that information belongs in a booklet/degree "How to dig a hole". (Yes, you can use a shovel, but a spade is recommended) > > One more try: > > Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended packages by > default. I suspect that would be correctly understood by most English speakers. I would insert a footnote explaining "recommended" and possibly the relevant stanza in apt.conf. > Beginning with the release of Squeeze, Some will have problems with the historical context - does that mean that on that day all Debian releases "installed recommended"? And is it relevant? (it's not Debian FAQ 2008). > apt-get is also the > recommended program to perform system installation and major system > upgrades. Some will want to know why waijig and cupt aren't mentioned. Perhaps the following belongs in a footnote also. > aptitude may be preferred for interactive use. IMO the documentation should be written (and read) in the current context, which is Squeeze and later. Historical references only confuse the issue. I maintain a number of older Debian installs (Sarge and Etch) - but I don't expect the current documentation to be relevant to them, or Spud. Then there's the future... > > Kind regards, > Andrei Kind regards -- Iceweasel/Firefox/Chrome/Chromium/Iceape/IE extensions for finding answers to questions about Debian:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f7c29b7@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wednesday 04 April 2012 10:01:47 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > Note that since Lenny, apt-get *installs* recommended packages by > default. ...since Lenny, apt-get *has installed*.. ;-) Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204041128.59935.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Wednesday 04 April 2012 02:38:29 Scott Ferguson wrote: > 2. How I'd write it:- > Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major > system upgrades.[*3] > > 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation > in their native language. :-) +1 Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204041124.01525.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Mi, 04 apr 12, 11:38:29, Scott Ferguson wrote: > My suggestions:- > > 1. rephrased for clarity, but hardly succint. > Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended[*1] packages by default. > Beginning with the release of Squeeze[*2], apt is the recommended > program to perform system installation and major system upgrades. > > 2. How I'd write it:- > Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major > system upgrades.[*3] > > 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation > in their native language. Not fair, most languages don't have enough contributors to translate the documentation, and translations may have issues themselves. > [*1] tempting to treat that as a noun :-) I see where you're coming from, but wouldn't it be too much jargon? > [*2] Surely outdated advice for archived releases belongs in the > archives. IMO counter arguments don't belong in documentation, they > usually only appear there as a futile attempt to quiet the trolls. Do you mean the mention of aptitude? I don't see it as a counter argument, but a genuine recommendation. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's very useful for me and probably others too. One more try: Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended packages by default. Beginning with the release of Squeeze, apt-get is also the recommended program to perform system installation and major system upgrades. aptitude may be preferred for interactive use. > [*3] "it's not what it said last year" Likewise the weather forecast. > "in my day we wore onions on our belts" We call it evolution. Move along. He, he :) Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On 04/04/12 07:46, Lisi wrote: > On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote: >> Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since >> Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform >> system installation and major system upgrades. > > Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? "since" makes that redundant. One of the keys to "plain English" is brevity. ;-) > > Lisi > > My suggestions:- 1. rephrased for clarity, but hardly succint. Note that since Lenny, apt-get installs recommended[*1] packages by default. Beginning with the release of Squeeze[*2], apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major system upgrades. 2. How I'd write it:- Apt is the recommended program to perform system installation and major system upgrades.[*3] 3. To avoid confusion people should read the fine Debian documentation in their native language. [*1] tempting to treat that as a noun :-) [*2] Surely outdated advice for archived releases belongs in the archives. IMO counter arguments don't belong in documentation, they usually only appear there as a futile attempt to quiet the trolls. [*3] "it's not what it said last year" Likewise the weather forecast. "in my day we wore onions on our belts" We call it evolution. Move along. Kind regards -- Iceweasel/Firefox/Chrome/Chromium/Iceape/IE extensions for finding answers to questions about Debian:- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/Scott_Ferguson/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f7ba615.5040...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Tuesday 03 April 2012 22:35:00 Andrei POPESCU wrote: > Note that apt-get *installs* recommended packages by default since > Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform > system installation and major system upgrades. Note that apt-get *has installed* recommended packages etc. surely? A present state due to a past action. "Depuis" in French requires the present, but surely not "since" in English? [I hasten to say that I am referring to the English dialect of English ;-) ] Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201204032246.33688.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: debian-faq (was ... Re: upgrade to Wheezy fails with aptitude)
On Mi, 04 apr 12, 02:01:41, Chris Bannister wrote: > > For a start it is possibly all just hot air unless it is discussed on > the debian-doc list and/or a patch submitted against the debian-faq > package. I know that you are involved in translations and hence have > some influence/knowledge so I suggest: I already offered to send a patch :) > Note: Starting with Squeeze, apt-get now installs recommended packages > by default and is the preferred program to perform system installation > and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive > package management. I like the simplicity of it, but it's not correct as it is now (apt-get installs recommends since lenny). Let me try to rephrase it: Note that apt-get installs recommended packages by default since Lenny and starting with Squeeze is the preferred program to perform system installation and major system upgrades. Aptitude may be preferred for interactive package management. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
