Re: how to use rpm in debian
On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 11:00:46PM -0400, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: > To me, the thought of two separate package databases (Debian, RPM) in > use at once makes me shudder, as leaving the room for each to overwrite > important files installed by the other. It is why, when I do build > software from source, it goes on /opt or /usr/local, and 'alien' gets > used when I *must* turn to a .rpm - someday I will learn the details to > write the debian/ scripts, strictly grab source when it isn't in the > Debian archives, and keep everything kosher. Well, a .deb is just an ar archive with a couple of scripts and a tar file of the program data. Have you seen 'checkinstall'? You can use it to automagically make .debs from uDebianised source trees. Sure, it won't integrate nicely into Debian, but it'll keep dpkg informed of what you're doing... -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.ertius.org/ GPG keys: 1024D/1E73B7CD, 4096R/3ABDE5EC | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: computer terrorism 9705 Samford Road bomb Jiang Zemin pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use rpm in debian
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 13:03, Bob Proulx wrote: > Rob Weir wrote: > > Mark L. Kahnt wrote: > > > I have this myself, and the installation scripts use 'rpm' to attempt > > > the installation, which on Debian just won't work, period. > > Not even with "The Gross Hack" of creating an rpmdb? The Intel C/C++ > compiler could be described using exactly the same description used to > describe IBM's db2 in the previous messages. I install it by picking > it apart and reassembling because I am a purist. I end up with a > clean installation. (If the license allowed it I could make the .debs > available. But it does not and so I can't.) But I do know at least > one individual who does the rpm installation just for that bundle of > software. Since it does not state any rpm requires in the bundle it > actually works. Scary. But an option. As long as one understands > how the rpmdb works and can turn it on and off at will I could > compromise and recommend that proceedure. Turn it on for this > installation, then turn it off again afterward by moving the rpmdb out > of the way until next time. > > I mention the Intel packages because it is likely that the IBM > packages will have some similar problems. At the time someone puts a > shell script installer around an installer like rpm it is usually > because they want to do bad things and so will be doing bad things. > Human nature is almost predictable for some things. > > > > It *could* be done by editing the installation scripts to replace > > > 'rpm' with 'alien' for any actual installation calls. While the > > > LSB is a great solution to > > > > You could write a script that runs something like: > > > > alien -t deb $2 && dpkg -i `echo "$2"|sed -e 's/\.deb$/\.rpm/' > > And don't forget alien's -i, --install option! :-) Just do it in one > step. > > > and drop it in your $PATH so it's run instead of the normal 'rpm'. Or > > something. > > I have really thought seriously of trying that. But in the case of > the Intel compiler it just uses rpm as a glorified tarball carrier of > the files. After installation it munges the files setting paths in > them and moving some around. So it won't verify cleanly after an > install. Which is very slimy in my book. I would hate to have > something in the dpkg database that was not really there since the > install shell script munged it or moved it. > > One important note about alien. I think it is really great and > certainly the way to go. But the version in woody has some serious > bugs which can keep you from having a good experience with it. I > highly recommend pulling the unstable source and backporting it to > woody. It backports easy. The latest versions have some very > important bug fixes. Even with the newest version, however, I have > some issues. But Joey has been very active working on it of late and > I think the release for sarge will be in excellent shape. > > Bob To me, the thought of two separate package databases (Debian, RPM) in use at once makes me shudder, as leaving the room for each to overwrite important files installed by the other. It is why, when I do build software from source, it goes on /opt or /usr/local, and 'alien' gets used when I *must* turn to a .rpm - someday I will learn the details to write the debian/ scripts, strictly grab source when it isn't in the Debian archives, and keep everything kosher. Alternately, I might send IBM the CDs for Woody and some documentation on building .debs (pointers to policy, etc.) with some encouragement that .debs are of significant use on servers and "those of us who know better" ;) -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: how to use rpm in debian
Joey Hess wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > I install it [Intel compiler] by picking it apart and reassembling > > because I am a purist. I end up with a clean installation. (If > > the license allowed it I could make the .debs available. But it > > does not and so I can't.) > > Would you be interested in making some alien diffs available so alien > could learn how to deal with this particular set of rpms? I have seen a > lot of questions by users trying to get them installed on debian lately. I will give it a shot! Expect some questions as I learn the alien patch process. Bob pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use rpm in debian
Bob Proulx wrote: > Not even with "The Gross Hack" of creating an rpmdb? The Intel C/C++ > compiler could be described using exactly the same description used to > describe IBM's db2 in the previous messages. I install it by picking > it apart and reassembling because I am a purist. I end up with a > clean installation. (If the license allowed it I could make the .debs > available. But it does not and so I can't.) Would you be interested in making some alien diffs available so alien could learn how to deal with this particular set of rpms? I have seen a lot of questions by users trying to get them installed on debian lately. /usr/share/doc/alien/gendiff.txt describes the procedure. The diffs include patches to the alien-generated debian/rules file, so you can move the directories in the rpm into the proper locations. I would be very likely to add such a thing to alien if it were submitted. -- see shy jo pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use rpm in debian
Rob Weir wrote: > On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 11:21:03PM -0400, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: > > I have this myself, and the installation scripts use 'rpm' to attempt > > the installation, which on Debian just won't work, period. It *could* be > > done by editing the installation scripts to replace 'rpm' with 'alien' > > for any actual installation calls. While the LSB is a great solution to > > You could write a script that runs something like: > > alien -t deb $2 && dpkg -i `echo "$2"|sed -e 's/\.deb$/\.rpm/' > > and drop it in your $PATH so it's run instead of the normal 'rpm'. Or > something. ITYM #!/bin/sh PATH=/path/to/real/rpm:$PATH alien $@ May not work for all rpm commands, but it will for -i. -- see shy jo pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use rpm in debian
Rob Weir wrote: > Mark L. Kahnt wrote: > > I have this myself, and the installation scripts use 'rpm' to attempt > > the installation, which on Debian just won't work, period. Not even with "The Gross Hack" of creating an rpmdb? The Intel C/C++ compiler could be described using exactly the same description used to describe IBM's db2 in the previous messages. I install it by picking it apart and reassembling because I am a purist. I end up with a clean installation. (If the license allowed it I could make the .debs available. But it does not and so I can't.) But I do know at least one individual who does the rpm installation just for that bundle of software. Since it does not state any rpm requires in the bundle it actually works. Scary. But an option. As long as one understands how the rpmdb works and can turn it on and off at will I could compromise and recommend that proceedure. Turn it on for this installation, then turn it off again afterward by moving the rpmdb out of the way until next time. I mention the Intel packages because it is likely that the IBM packages will have some similar problems. At the time someone puts a shell script installer around an installer like rpm it is usually because they want to do bad things and so will be doing bad things. Human nature is almost predictable for some things. > > It *could* be done by editing the installation scripts to replace > > 'rpm' with 'alien' for any actual installation calls. While the > > LSB is a great solution to > > You could write a script that runs something like: > > alien -t deb $2 && dpkg -i `echo "$2"|sed -e 's/\.deb$/\.rpm/' And don't forget alien's -i, --install option! :-) Just do it in one step. > and drop it in your $PATH so it's run instead of the normal 'rpm'. Or > something. I have really thought seriously of trying that. But in the case of the Intel compiler it just uses rpm as a glorified tarball carrier of the files. After installation it munges the files setting paths in them and moving some around. So it won't verify cleanly after an install. Which is very slimy in my book. I would hate to have something in the dpkg database that was not really there since the install shell script munged it or moved it. One important note about alien. I think it is really great and certainly the way to go. But the version in woody has some serious bugs which can keep you from having a good experience with it. I highly recommend pulling the unstable source and backporting it to woody. It backports easy. The latest versions have some very important bug fixes. Even with the newest version, however, I have some issues. But Joey has been very active working on it of late and I think the release for sarge will be in excellent shape. Bob pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use rpm in debian
On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 11:21:03PM -0400, Mark L. Kahnt wrote: > I have this myself, and the installation scripts use 'rpm' to attempt > the installation, which on Debian just won't work, period. It *could* be > done by editing the installation scripts to replace 'rpm' with 'alien' > for any actual installation calls. While the LSB is a great solution to You could write a script that runs something like: alien -t deb $2 && dpkg -i `echo "$2"|sed -e 's/\.deb$/\.rpm/' and drop it in your $PATH so it's run instead of the normal 'rpm'. Or something. -- Rob Weir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.ertius.org/ GPG keys: 1024D/1E73B7CD, 4096R/3ABDE5EC | Do I look like I want a CC? Words of the day: benelux RSA Elvis Baranyi Panama Saddam Hussein Verisign pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use rpm in debian
On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 14:49, Bob Proulx wrote: > Mathias Peters wrote: > > i need to install the db2 v8.1 personal edition on debian. the > > tar-file i got on ibm.com only produced some rpms that are installed > > via install-skript, so i can't use alien. does anybody know how to > > install the rpm package database on debian or how to install db2 > > somehow else? > > First I am not familiar at all with db2 from ibm.com. So I can only > talk in general terms. Is this free software such that others could > help with your install problems? Or is it commercial only? If free > then there will be lots of help. If commercial then is there any > ability to ask the vendor to support Debian directly? DB2 was originally developed for IBM mainframes as their big, mondo powerful database system. With it, they introduced a control language that could access and manipulate data via a near-english syntax called Structured Query Language, or SQL. This format was later copied by numerous other database developers and standardised to be the SQL we have today. It is most definitely not free software - it is one of IBM's cash cows, both for software licenses and support contracts. It is available to consulting partners (third parties who consult on systems or hardware for clients) at reduced or demonstration oriented free-of-charge licenses so that they can be familiar with its functionality - IBM finds that doing that sort of thing helps their sales of the software products, and hopefully the hardware too. Most software vendors of major commercial systems offer similar arrangements. I have this myself, and the installation scripts use 'rpm' to attempt the installation, which on Debian just won't work, period. It *could* be done by editing the installation scripts to replace 'rpm' with 'alien' for any actual installation calls. While the LSB is a great solution to handling this sort of system installation, it stumbles badly on Debian when confronted with installation scripts that explicitly call 'rpm' for the installation. For LSB to properly work in the way that people *envisage* such universal ability to install the software, either a "distribution neutral" installation command is needed (where on Debian, if it saw an .rpm, it would call 'alien' to do the conversion,) or 'rpm' *someday* should be extended on Debian to support the Debian installation database *as best as possible* given the .rpm limitations. The third option is to clue IBM into the advantages of releasing a .deb edition of their packages, given the position it holds amongst those that *know* Linux. -- Mark L. Kahnt, FLMI/M, ALHC, HIA, AIAA, ACS, MHP ML Kahnt New Markets Consulting Tel: (613) 531-8684 / (613) 539-0935 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: how to use rpm in debian
Mathias Peters wrote: > first of all, i'm not subscribed, so please cc me to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] thanks. Let me suggest including a Mail-Followup-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] header in your email so that people responding will automatically be directed to do what you wish? See my message here for an example. Of course I would also specifically request it too just to be sure. There are a lot of poor mailers in use out there. > i need to install the db2 v8.1 personal edition on debian. the > tar-file i got on ibm.com only produced some rpms that are installed > via install-skript, so i can't use alien. does anybody know how to > install the rpm package database on debian or how to install db2 > somehow else? First I am not familiar at all with db2 from ibm.com. So I can only talk in general terms. Is this free software such that others could help with your install problems? Or is it commercial only? If free then there will be lots of help. If commercial then is there any ability to ask the vendor to support Debian directly? Regardless please ask the vendor to support LSB (Linux Standards Base) compliant packages which support all LSB conforming systems. Standards are a good thing. I always hate it when people put an installer around an installer. That is, install scripts around rpm. It overly complicates things. Creating LSB compliant packages is much better. I have always found it possible to install applications no matter how convoluted their installation might be. I work in the CAD/EDA industry and trust me some vendors have very tangled installation processes. But that means that if the vendor made it hard to install that it will be hard to install. You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. But hard does not mean you can't install it. Please do make the attempt to do so. I think you will find a little effort will be rewarded with a successful installation and you will also be better off by knowing more about the software you are installing. You might have to take the package apart piece by piece and install it by knowing what it is doing inside. This is not terribly difficult. You say it has a script installer. Which means the processes of the script can be debugged. If you look at the installation script can you deduce what it is trying to do and then do those same things yourself? The complexity can vary greatly here. Some scripts are very easy and some are very hard and everything in between exists too. For example, let me guess that the script is deducing the type of system you have and installing with rpm the matching .rpm files. If that is all it is doing then you can alien convert the .rpm files and install them yourself. And there are other possibilities. Sometimes vendor applications which use installer scripts then munge the installed files with the script. They set up /full/install/paths and other such things. By looking at the script can you tell if that is happening here? If so then you can run or replicate that section of the script yourself to finish the installation. Also, I really hate suggesting this, but some people have had _okay_ results by creating an rpm database just for the purpose of installing vendor applications in situations such as yours. I would NEVER do this for core system components such as commands or libraries. But for optional modules which bolt onto the side of your system and have no overlap with anything else on your system then perhaps this is a compromise. But I certainly would not do it blindly as it can really mess up your system. Doing an rpm install in a chroot area is reasonably safe. Then you can see what is installed and transfer that to your real system. If you looked at your .rpm files with 'rpm -pqlv' and 'rpm -pq --scripts' you could deduce what is inside the rpm and make a determination as to whether it overlaps with your system functionality or not. Knowing that one could tell what options might work better than others. These are just general hints. Dig into the problem and please report back to the mailing list your results. With more information I might be able to give more specific suggestions. Bob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
