Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-02 Thread Vincent Lefevre 
On 2013-06-02 20:10:43 +0200, Erwan David wrote:
> You may get a look at the changelog/News before installing by using
> apt-listchanges package configured to show both news and changelog
> and using it in a pager, which allows to type Ctrl-c and abort the
> upgrade process.

But the whole packages need to be downloaded. "apt-get changelog"
seems a better solution. However it doesn't show the NEWS file
(I don't think this is necessary for my purpose, though).

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Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-02 Thread Erwan David 

Le 02/06/2013 18:39, Chris Bannister a écrit :

On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 05:24:57PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

What I was wondering initially was: is libapache2-svn still needed
(in which case I should wait for a new version) or are its features
integrated in some other package (e.g. from the apache2 source)?
A tool analyzing the dependency system (such as apt-get) could
answer such a question automatically.

I would look in the changes/NEWS files under /usr/share/doc/pkgname, but
the trouble is you need to install them to see. :( I think the packages
search page allows you to look at individual files.

Obviously, this isn't important/production or you wouldn't be running
jessie!  You could hold off updating untill you are satisfied of the
answer. Personally, I'd be emailing the maintainer about now to see if
there is a replacement package coming up?

These transitions may not happen all at once.

You may get a look at the changelog/News before installing by using 
apt-listchanges package configured to show both news and changelog and 
using it in a pager, which allows to type Ctrl-c and abort the upgrade 
process.



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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-02 Thread Vincent Lefevre 
On 2013-06-03 04:39:08 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 05:24:57PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > What I was wondering initially was: is libapache2-svn still needed
> > (in which case I should wait for a new version) or are its features
> > integrated in some other package (e.g. from the apache2 source)?
> > A tool analyzing the dependency system (such as apt-get) could
> > answer such a question automatically.
> 
> I would look in the changes/NEWS files under /usr/share/doc/pkgname, but
> the trouble is you need to install them to see. :( I think the packages
> search page allows you to look at individual files.

That's an idea. Such packaging information is not always in NEWS,
but it should be in the ChangeLog, and one can get it with:

  apt-get changelog 

(well, with some delay after the package appeared in the repository).
It can be quite verbose, in particular after a transition, but one
can do a search from the pager...

> Obviously, this isn't important/production or you wouldn't be running
> jessie!  You could hold off updating untill you are satisfied of the
> answer. Personally, I'd be emailing the maintainer about now to see if
> there is a replacement package coming up?

Packages can be important even on personal Debian/unstable machines!
I don't like to have packages removed, and after a few days or weeks,
notice that something no longer works because of that.

On the other hand, I sometimes hold packages for a long time while
I could have upgraded them by allowing some unimportant package to
be removed (e.g. an obsolete library).

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-02 Thread Chris Bannister 
On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 05:24:57PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> 
> What I was wondering initially was: is libapache2-svn still needed
> (in which case I should wait for a new version) or are its features
> integrated in some other package (e.g. from the apache2 source)?
> A tool analyzing the dependency system (such as apt-get) could
> answer such a question automatically.

I would look in the changes/NEWS files under /usr/share/doc/pkgname, but
the trouble is you need to install them to see. :( I think the packages
search page allows you to look at individual files.

Obviously, this isn't important/production or you wouldn't be running
jessie!  You could hold off updating untill you are satisfied of the
answer. Personally, I'd be emailing the maintainer about now to see if
there is a replacement package coming up?

These transitions may not happen all at once.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-02 Thread Vincent Lefevre 
On 2013-06-02 23:28:22 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 01:12:46AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > On 2013-06-02 07:08:53 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 03:16:32PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > > > How can I tell apt-get not to break the system by removing
> > > > potentially useful packages?
> > > 
> > > By using "apt-get upgrade" instead of "apt-get dist-upgrade"
> > 
> > I had problems with "apt-get upgrade" in the past. I don't remember
> > what, but this may be what the apt-get man page describes: "under no
> > circumstances are currently installed packages removed, or packages
> > not already installed retrieved and installed." This is not what I
> > want. For instance, it should be fine to remove transitional packages.
> 
> "apt-get upgrade" should upgrade all possible packages without removing
> any, *then* use "apt-get dist-upgrade", this will allow you to carefully
> review the actions and decide to whether to accept them or not.

I was at the point of doing the second step, and more precisely
"apt-get install apache2" to upgrade apache2 and see what was
proposed since aptitude signaled some broken package in case of
upgrade (apt-get is smarter than aptitude for its default dependency
resolution). After searching a bit, I could decide for apache2.
Sometimes time is more complex, as this can involve several dozens
of packages.

> > > Have you got an example of where this is a concern?
> > 
> > For instance, "apt-get dist-upgrade" says that apache2.2-common
> > libapache2-svn will be removed (due to the 2.2 -> 2.4 apache2
> > transition). It is not OK, because libapache2-svn should not be
> > removed. Using "apt-get upgrade" isn't OK either, because if I
> > understand correctly, it will never accept to remove apache2.2-common
> > (as this is a 2.2 related package as its name says).
> 
> So you need libapache2-svn, but there is no replacement if you accept
> the 2.2 -> 2.4 apache2 transition?

What I was wondering initially was: is libapache2-svn still needed
(in which case I should wait for a new version) or are its features
integrated in some other package (e.g. from the apache2 source)?
A tool analyzing the dependency system (such as apt-get) could
answer such a question automatically.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-02 Thread Chris Bannister 
On Sun, Jun 02, 2013 at 01:12:46AM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2013-06-02 07:08:53 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 03:16:32PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > > How can I tell apt-get not to break the system by removing
> > > potentially useful packages?
> > 
> > By using "apt-get upgrade" instead of "apt-get dist-upgrade"
> 
> I had problems with "apt-get upgrade" in the past. I don't remember
> what, but this may be what the apt-get man page describes: "under no
> circumstances are currently installed packages removed, or packages
> not already installed retrieved and installed." This is not what I
> want. For instance, it should be fine to remove transitional packages.

"apt-get upgrade" should upgrade all possible packages without removing
any, *then* use "apt-get dist-upgrade", this will allow you to carefully
review the actions and decide to whether to accept them or not.

> > Have you got an example of where this is a concern?
> 
> For instance, "apt-get dist-upgrade" says that apache2.2-common
> libapache2-svn will be removed (due to the 2.2 -> 2.4 apache2
> transition). It is not OK, because libapache2-svn should not be
> removed. Using "apt-get upgrade" isn't OK either, because if I
> understand correctly, it will never accept to remove apache2.2-common
> (as this is a 2.2 related package as its name says).

So you need libapache2-svn, but there is no replacement if you accept
the 2.2 -> 2.4 apache2 transition?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-01 Thread Vincent Lefevre 
On 2013-06-02 07:08:53 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 03:16:32PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > How can I tell apt-get not to break the system by removing
> > potentially useful packages?
> 
> By using "apt-get upgrade" instead of "apt-get dist-upgrade"

I had problems with "apt-get upgrade" in the past. I don't remember
what, but this may be what the apt-get man page describes: "under no
circumstances are currently installed packages removed, or packages
not already installed retrieved and installed." This is not what I
want. For instance, it should be fine to remove transitional packages.

> Have you got an example of where this is a concern?

For instance, "apt-get dist-upgrade" says that apache2.2-common
libapache2-svn will be removed (due to the 2.2 -> 2.4 apache2
transition). It is not OK, because libapache2-svn should not be
removed. Using "apt-get upgrade" isn't OK either, because if I
understand correctly, it will never accept to remove apache2.2-common
(as this is a 2.2 related package as its name says).

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Re: telling apt-get not to remove potentially useful packages?

2013-06-01 Thread Chris Bannister 
On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 03:16:32PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> How can I tell apt-get not to break the system by removing
> potentially useful packages?

By using "apt-get upgrade" instead of "apt-get dist-upgrade"

Have you got an example of where this is a concern?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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