Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Guys, I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... But, my turn...:-P *First things first: Why I'm with Debian / Ubuntu?* A.: Because *I like the work of Debian Maintainers* (you guys and gals, sirs and madams), about how Debian *compiles and packages* *every single piece of open source software out there* (i.e., its `configure ; make ; make install` from `debian/rules`, I love it). I really don't care that much about what init system I have (I'm using upstart and sysvinit these days, never used systemd - it IS too unstable (I tried it without success, lots of bugs popped everywhere when with systemd), invasive and dangerous to our comunity project (a.k.a. Debian))... But please, guys, DO NOT LOSE *DEBIAN COMPILATION*!! I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about things like this: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html It creeps the hell outta me! Specially this: ...This greatly simplifies application installation, as there's no dependency hell... - Poettring. So, this guy uses a RPM-based distro, called RedHat/CentOS/Fedora, right?! I feel sorry for him... Poor guy... Only that crap-distro(s) have a dependency hell, not our shiny Debian. I don't know what that guy is talking about, honestly (well, no, I know - rpm+yum sucks). =P Anyway, I see that there is room for improvements on software installing and updating (binary diffs, cow and etc?) but, wait, systemd instead of dpkg/apt?! I thought this thing was supposed to replace ONLY the init system, nothing more, neither udev (already engulfed)... So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? Come guys... For real?! *Please, do not let this to happen here! Do not lose Debian Compilation, and packaging, do not lose [dpkg / apt] / debian/rules, for systemd!* *Also, do not lose `dpkg-buildpackage` for systemd-buildpackage!!* This systemd thing *has already gone too far*. Keep systemd at its bare minimum level... Do not let it take over the whole distro. Honestly, I don't fear systemd itself, or binary logs... I fear things like this: Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/ So, lets move on over this systemd thing, *keep it at its bare minimum level...* I'm fine with a new init system, our current state of technology allows us to do that, something like systemd (I like its ideas, but don't like its Mr. Knowitall implementation, *it looks really ugly and bloated*), nevertheless, I'll try it later, maybe on 2016~2020, if it proves itself really stable (i.e., a nonissue in the near future) AND upstream developers change their attitude / behavior on bug handling, etc... Please guys, don't take me wrong (no flame wars okay?!)... I'm just concerned about the preservation of our amazing Linux/kFreeBSD distro! Keeping `sysvinit-core` in Debian 8 (9, 10...) *at a reliable level* *is a wise thing to do*. Just in case... (I don't trust RedHat neither the Corporatocracy). So! Let the men write their own init scripts powered by `sysvinit-core` for a long time ahead! Don't throw this away! Also, keep kfreebsd flavor for how long as possible (*without systemd things*, of course)! On Linux, it is fine to have systemd installed and around (like systemd-udev, logind0 and etc) but, sysvinit is important (even upstart is), do not lose it... BTW, *during Debian 8 installation, please, provide a (d-i, tasksel, alternatives, whatever) interface for selecting the initsystem*, *this is important!* I know that it seems pretty easy to just run apt-get install sysvinit-core (or preseed it) (to get rid of systemd as init) after the installation but, if that [initsystem selection] option appear (during the installation), *this will make Debian even stronger*, as the only distro that provides, at least, two (sysvinit|systemd) reliable init systems. *How cool is that?!* Also, without an interface for selecting an init system on Jessie, *the popularity contest becomes unfair*. Honestly, I would like to wake up from this systemd nightmare. I'm seeing that there is demand for a brand new Linux distribution, that will sit right in the middle of Debian and Slackware... Something like a Debian fork without DBus, systemd and PAM, but still with dpkg/apt d-i and lots of packages. Lets do it?! Lets fork Debian and remove systemd, dbus and pam out from it?! The fork `uselessd` (or a new udev) becomes more and more a necessity. Just for the record, today is the first day that I tested systemd, then, systemd-journal consumed 100% of my CPU (plus rsyslog), something related to GPM and, ecryptfs does not umount my home dir anymore, after logout... Is it a systemd problem? How can I
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Sorry man... English isn't my native language, is hard for me to express myself in another language... But yes, those sources aren't the best but, there are more, you know. :-P Best! Thiago On 20 October 2014 15:55, Axel Wagner m...@merovius.de wrote: Hi, Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com writes: I really do NOT want to start a flame war This statement is evidently false or misguided. I'd love to leave it at that (see?), but: Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/ Seriously? You are quoting phoronix and theregister as sources? Best, Axel Wagner
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 15:34:43 -0200 Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com wrote: But please, guys, DO NOT LOSE *DEBIAN COMPILATION*!! I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about things like this: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html It creeps the hell outta me! [snip] So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? Come guys... For real?! [snip] Honestly, I don't fear systemd itself, or binary logs... I fear things like this: Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/ Thiago, Sadly, you ask the exact right question. Do we want Debian (and Linux) ruled by a megalomaniac who hates Linux, is determined to make it into something un-Linux, and wants all distros to be the same (copies of his employer's distro, no doubt). Systemd's architecture, which I personally find unwise, is nevertheless something that, from a technical standpoint, *could* be disentangled at a later date if it turns out to be as problematic as I think it will be. The real problem, which you put your finger square on, is that the architecture is simply a tool of monopolization. And, in fact, the megalomaniac is a proxy for his employer, Red Hat. Anybody who reads Poetterings writings, listens to his interviews, and doesn't come away with the idea that he wants to destroy what is currently Linux, and make sure it can never regenerate itself, isn't paying attention. Red Hat already had OpenSuSE, Fedora, CentOS, Mand* and all its descendants, and several others on its team already. Somehow, Arch and Sabayon fell for it too. If they conquer Debian, then Ubuntu and all the Debian and Ubuntu descendants fall, and Red Hat controls all of Linux. From there it's a simple matter to weld more and more onto their systemd (such as the packaging system), until regenerating the real Linux is no longer practical. Once they have a monopoly, they'll show much less regard for us than the CTTE ever did. Right now, this minute, Debian has the last clear chance to avoid the Poettering Vision, which is really the Red Hat strategy for Linux monopolization, which means destruction of the operating system we currently use. At this point, the technical issues are a minor thing. The big news is how humans are going to use those technical issues to replace our wonderful, almost POSIX OS with a Windows wannabe. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141020142250.56fb6...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 19:34, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... No, you wanted to add more oil on existing flamewars and you know it. If you don't want to start the flamewars, you should refrain sending such emails, please. But, my turn...:-P No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny. Cheers, Ondrej
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
On Mon, 20 Oct 2014, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... But, my turn...:-P This thread is off-topic for -user. debian-user@lists.debian.org is for Debian support. If you want more information about systemd, see https://wiki.debian.org/systemd. If you want to avoid using systemd, simply don't install the systemd-sysv package. If something requires systemd-sysv and doesn't have an alternative dependency on systemd-shim, please file a bug using reportbug if one hasn't already been filed. If you want to discuss this further, please use http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic. Further responses to this thread may be discarded. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com If god is always watching over us who's driving? -- a softer world #487 http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=487 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141020185931.gy28...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
