Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Ma, 09 dec 14, 18:48:54, Patrick Bartek wrote: What patterns did you see? What claims did I make? What a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd? A rhetorical statement. A lot of Debian server admins don't like systemd to put it mildly. They said so -- explicitly -- with various reasons why. Now, whether what they claimed is true or not remains to be seen, but we do know their opinions. A lot can mean just about anything without some concrete numbers behind it. But this is getting off topic, so if you expect any more answers from me please follow up on the -offtopic list (CC and Reply-To set accordingly). Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Wed, 10 Dec 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Ma, 09 dec 14, 18:48:54, Patrick Bartek wrote: What patterns did you see? What claims did I make? What a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd? A rhetorical statement. A lot of Debian server admins don't like systemd to put it mildly. They said so -- explicitly -- with various reasons why. Now, whether what they claimed is true or not remains to be seen, but we do know their opinions. A lot can mean just about anything without some concrete numbers behind it. But this is getting off topic, so if you expect any more answers from me please follow up on the -offtopic list (CC and Reply-To set accordingly). I guess relative terminology has little use in your world. Sorry, but I have no concrete numbers to offer. I performed no statistical analyses of the systemd discussions here (who does?), nor have I come across any in my research -- not even so much as an opinion poll either. So, I guess you're stuck with my confounding subjective assessment. But to make things easier: a lot here means more than a few, might even mean most; but certainly not all. Relatively speaking. ;-) No reply expected: As you've said, we're bordering on off-topic. Plus, I have nothing else that needs saying. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141210150820.668fc...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sun, 07 Dec 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Sb, 06 dec 14, 13:56:34, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Why? You've read this list regarding systemd and Debian same as I. I did. Surely, you have formed some opinions. Yes. Or are no patterns in the discussions apparent to you? They certainly are, but I have a strong feeling the patterns I am seeing are not the same as the ones you are seeing. Still, I try to refrain from making claims I can't prove and/or have hard data to back them up. What patterns did you see? What claims did I make? What a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd? A rhetorical statement. A lot of Debian server admins don't like systemd to put it mildly. They said so -- explicitly -- with various reasons why. Now, whether what they claimed is true or not remains to be seen, but we do know their opinions. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141209184854.3b323...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Wed, Dec 03, 2014 at 10:15:24AM -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote: It IS accurate to say that after Jessie is released as stable. Jessie No. 'Jessie is frozen *until* it is released as stable. has been frozen, and only RC fixes are being made. This is not considered an RC fix. That link I posted previously, hinted that it could still be looked at. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141208154901.GA31245@tal
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Ma, 02 dec 14, 16:52:46, Miles Fidelman wrote: Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling. As Brian already said, debootstrap is just a bunch of scripts, so no compiling involved. One has to build a custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it. I'll quote the long description of the package debootstrap is used to create a Debian base system from scratch, without requiring the availability of dpkg or apt. It does this by downloading .deb files from a mirror site, and carefully unpacking them into a directory which can eventually be chrooted into. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Le 06/12/2014 15:19, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Kind regards, Andrei They may think of systemd saying were is this M%µ£igation documentation which would allow me to keep my servers running when upgrade time arrives. That's a way of thinking of it. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/06/2014 02:40 PM, Erwan David wrote: Le 06/12/2014 15:19, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Kind regards, Andrei They may think of systemd saying were is this M%µ£igation documentation which would allow me to keep my servers running when upgrade time arrives. That's a way of thinking of it. Two years from now, is another way of thinking about it. Until then, running Wheezy will be business as usual. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/548361db.4070...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sb, 06 dec 14, 20:40:21, Erwan David wrote: Le 06/12/2014 15:19, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? They may think of systemd saying were is this M%µ£igation documentation which would allow me to keep my servers running when upgrade time arrives. That's a way of thinking of it. I was rather asking about the a lot of Debian server admins, but what you're asking for is (still) work in progress. http://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/releasenotes Feel free to file bugs against the pseudo-package 'release-notes', preferably with suggested text (or even better, a patch), if you think something is missing. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sat, 06 Dec 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Why? You've read this list regarding systemd and Debian same as I. Surely, you have formed some opinions. Or are no patterns in the discussions apparent to you? B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141206135634.39cf8...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/06/2014 04:56 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Why? You've read this list regarding systemd and Debian same as I. Surely, you have formed some opinions. Or are no patterns in the discussions apparent to you? If I were to present them all, I'd get another nasty-gram from Mr. Armstrong. Let's just say that within the next year, we'll see who has the brain and leave it at that. I trust the Debian developers to make correct decisions. It's all I can do, as I'm not personally paying them to do what I want done. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5483852d.9020...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sb, 06 dec 14, 13:56:34, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2014, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 01 dec 14, 23:05:09, Patrick Bartek wrote: Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. Care to back this up with some data? Why? You've read this list regarding systemd and Debian same as I. I did. Surely, you have formed some opinions. Yes. Or are no patterns in the discussions apparent to you? They certainly are, but I have a strong feeling the patterns I am seeing are not the same as the ones you are seeing. Still, I try to refrain from making claims I can't prove and/or have hard data to back them up. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic http://nuvreauspam.ro/gpg-transition.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Wed, 03 Dec 2014, Brad Rogers wrote: On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:24:03 -0800 Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Patrick, use and no one else's, why distribute it at all? Simple: Ego. Perhaps. Or insecurity, and the need for validation. Or arrogance. Or all the above. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141204093330.28501...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu 04 Dec 2014 at 09:33:30 -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014, Brad Rogers wrote: On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:24:03 -0800 Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Patrick, use and no one else's, why distribute it at all? Simple: Ego. Perhaps. Or insecurity, and the need for validation. Or arrogance. Or all the above. Mmm. I write some programs which perform useful jobs for me. Maybe they include a browser or a mailer or an init system, I do it to scratch my itch and because it is fun. Then I ask myself: maybe they might benefit someone? So I distribute them, allowing anyone to do the same even after altering them. It could be some of the changes could benefit my way of working but it doesn't really matter as I'm happy with what I produced. So that makes me * Egotistcal * Insecure * Requiring validation * Arrogant It probably also makes my behaviour stupid. But stupidity is in short supply as you two have a monopoly on it and it doesn't look like you you are going to do any sharing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/04122014182643.502af8473...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 18:48:31 + Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote: Hello Brian, It probably also makes my behaviour stupid. But stupidity is in short supply as you two have a monopoly on it and it doesn't look like you you are going to do any sharing. We were talking about a subset of developers, not *all* of them. Re-read the thread, and that should become clear. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent You suck my blood like a leech Death On Two Legs - Queen pgpsnC6yH28f2.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thursday 04 December 2014 19:41:44 Brad Rogers wrote: On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 18:48:31 + Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote: Hello Brian, It probably also makes my behaviour stupid. But stupidity is in short supply as you two have a monopoly on it and it doesn't look like you you are going to do any sharing. We were talking about a subset of developers, not *all* of them. Re-read the thread, and that should become clear. No, this is what had started that part of the thread: quote User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. /quote A generalised comment. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201412042016.16523.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 20:16:16 + Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Lisi, No, this is what had started that part of the thread: I meant from where I chipped in. Sorry I didn't make it clear. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent Well well well, you just can't tell My Michelle - Guns 'N' Roses pgp8imolZyza8.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/04/2014 12:33 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2014, Brad Rogers wrote: On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:24:03 -0800 Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Patrick, use and no one else's, why distribute it at all? Simple: Ego. Perhaps. Or insecurity, and the need for validation. Or arrogance. Or all the above. Or perhaps to move Linux along where the likes of Google and Amazon has moved forwards to? That could be a reason, especially for servers. Unifying packaging could be another. If Linux is to have a paradigm shift, it could actually be what we need. I remain hopeful that the Next Big Thing happens within the Linux camp and not Apple's or Microsoft's. Could happen ya know. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5480d77d.3070...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/04/2014 03:16 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Thursday 04 December 2014 19:41:44 Brad Rogers wrote: On Thu, 4 Dec 2014 18:48:31 + Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote: Hello Brian, It probably also makes my behaviour stupid. But stupidity is in short supply as you two have a monopoly on it and it doesn't look like you you are going to do any sharing. We were talking about a subset of developers, not *all* of them. Re-read the thread, and that should become clear. No, this is what had started that part of the thread: quote User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. /quote A generalised comment. Glittering Generality perhaps? :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5480d806.1010...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 05:15:36PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: [I've somehow deleted the other messages, so this one will have to do] On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 01:59:02PM +0100, Jochen Spieker wrote: Patrick Bartek: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. Semantics. Nothing is final yet, jessie is still a moving target IOW not yet stable, so not just semantics. Yes. Semantics. Jessie not being Stable doesn't make Testing any less Jessie regardless of its state of development. Yes!!! Testing! Yay, we finally agree! \o/ -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203124330.GD9553@tal
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/03/2014 at 07:43 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 05:15:36PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: Nothing is final yet, jessie is still a moving target IOW not yet stable, so not just semantics. Yes. Semantics. Jessie not being Stable doesn't make Testing any less Jessie regardless of its state of development. Yes!!! Testing! Yay, we finally agree! \o/ So are you saying that you agree that the original statement that systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie was accurate, because current testing is jessie? Because that's what we/I've been saying all along, and it's what the post you're responding to said - but it's also what John Hasler's original response (with which you seemed to agree) seemed to reject. Back when I was, say, five years old, it would have been perfectly accurate for someone to say of me that [myname] cannot jump high enough to touch the ceiling., because I could not. Today, that statement would be less than completely accurate, because I can easily jump high enough to touch a standard 8- or 9-foot ceiling. It's the same statement, and it still refers to me, by my name - but it's not the same me in both cases, because I've changed in the meantime. In exactly, the same way, it is currently accurate to say that systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie, in reference to current testing... ...even if it may no longer be accurate to say that after jessie is released as stable. It's the same statement in both cases, and it still refers to jessie, by name - even if jessie changes in the meantime. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/3/2014 9:38 AM, The Wanderer wrote: On 12/03/2014 at 07:43 AM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 05:15:36PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: Nothing is final yet, jessie is still a moving target IOW not yet stable, so not just semantics. Yes. Semantics. Jessie not being Stable doesn't make Testing any less Jessie regardless of its state of development. Yes!!! Testing! Yay, we finally agree! \o/ So are you saying that you agree that the original statement that systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie was accurate, because current testing is jessie? Because that's what we/I've been saying all along, and it's what the post you're responding to said - but it's also what John Hasler's original response (with which you seemed to agree) seemed to reject. Back when I was, say, five years old, it would have been perfectly accurate for someone to say of me that [myname] cannot jump high enough to touch the ceiling., because I could not. Today, that statement would be less than completely accurate, because I can easily jump high enough to touch a standard 8- or 9-foot ceiling. It's the same statement, and it still refers to me, by my name - but it's not the same me in both cases, because I've changed in the meantime. In exactly, the same way, it is currently accurate to say that systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie, in reference to current testing... ...even if it may no longer be accurate to say that after jessie is released as stable. It's the same statement in both cases, and it still refers to jessie, by name - even if jessie changes in the meantime. It IS accurate to say that after Jessie is released as stable. Jessie has been frozen, and only RC fixes are being made. This is not considered an RC fix. The situation will continue until the next release, at a minimum. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547f290c.5050...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 02 December 2014 07:05:09 Patrick Bartek wrote: User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. What customers?? This is open source. Developers do not need, if they do not want to, to take any notice of anyone but themselves. They do not need customers. This is the basic misconception. Developers do not need us, the users. We need them. This is NOT a business. It will go out of business (having not been one in the first place) not if it loses all its users (who are NOT customers) but if it loses all its developers. Substitute Users then. Reasoning still applies. That's a very arrogant attitude. Kind of naive, too. But yes, developer(s) don't have to respond to what users want, but they would be smart to do so. If you singly or as a group are developing software for others to use, open source or not, that software benefits from user feedback, if only for bug reports. If you are only writing for your own use and no one else's, why distribute it at all? Here's a truth: If there is a need, there will be someone to fill it. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203092403.77b6d...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:24:03 -0800 Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Patrick, use and no one else's, why distribute it at all? Simple: Ego. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent I'll be the paint on the side if you'll be the tin Love Song - The Damned pgp7sC38oBVg7.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 02.12.2014 08:05, Patrick Bartek a écrit : and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those that produce have their freedom of choice constrained by users. I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely to do anything other than destroy, given that the user has a choice. User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. Really? Tss... How many projects have you, as a user, constrained to do something? Being commercial or not... I don't know. Is filing a bug report and having the developer fix it a constraint on the software? If I fix the bug myself? Is that? It does ultimately STOP the problem the bug was causing whether I do it myself or not. The constraining, the stopping, of something is not always a bad thing. We are constrained in our lives as well as in our work by a multitude of factors. Sometimes, it's good; other time not. That's life. You may had some success in commercial softwares, because of contracts, but for small projects, or projects were the developpers are not paid, when they only contribute because they wan't to use it, but without having to suffer some bug or another, or with a feature they would like to have, I sincerely doubt you had constrained anyone. Most of my contributions to software development as a user, not a developer, have been with projects that only involved one or two coders/developers whom you could contact directly, personally. One of those projects ultimately became the Opera browser. But I've done little of that since moving to Linux 15 years ago. Don't have the patience anymore. Or the time. Honestly... if you want to constrain people on their spare time, if you want to remove us the last part of fun we can have in programming, then... well, people wont listen you, to stay polite. And it's normal. See above about life's constraints. Open source developpers are not all paid for what they do. Only a minority is, and in this minority, I am not sure that the bigger part actually live from open source softwares. If you're not making money from your Open Source, then you have to have income from somewhere else. Else how would you live? From the kindness of strangers, perhaps? [snip] Oh. And, you forgot something. FOSS developpers are the users of their work, unlike in commercial softwares. And it changes *a lot* of things, if not everything. I didn't forget. I once wrote a very specialize file manager just for me to satisfy some peculiar requirements I had at the time. It was of little use to a general user. Never distributed it. No feedback. Fixed the bugs myself. Etc. But if you put your code/project (FOSS or otherwise) out there expect feedback from others. We're a talky bunch. And listen to them. You may get some very good ideas and solutions for improvements. It may even change the direction of the entire project turning something that initially was just a pet project, a hobby, into something that many would benefit from. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141203154944.07020...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tuesday 02 December 2014 07:05:09 Patrick Bartek wrote: User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. What customers?? This is open source. Developers do not need, if they do not want to, to take any notice of anyone but themselves. They do not need customers. This is the basic misconception. Developers do not need us, the users. We need them. This is NOT a business. It will go out of business (having not been one in the first place) not if it loses all its users (who are NOT customers) but if it loses all its developers. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201412020856.07499.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Le Mon, 01 Dec 2014 13:45:12 -0500, Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net a écrit : Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Just to be clear... you're saying that Slackware, Gentoo, and their derivatives are not distros of merit? Or, for that matter, BSD and illumos derivatives? Did you saw that a co-founder of FreeBSD is proposing to switch to a system very similar to systemd? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg0ODE -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141202114915.5b7c7...@soldur.bigon.be
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 11:49:15AM +0100, Laurent Bigonville wrote: Le Mon, 01 Dec 2014 13:45:12 -0500, Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net a écrit : Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Just to be clear... you're saying that Slackware, Gentoo, and their derivatives are not distros of merit? Or, for that matter, BSD and illumos derivatives? Did you saw that a co-founder of FreeBSD is proposing to switch to a system very similar to systemd? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTg0ODE I surely did - In fact posted it here almost a week ago, for some reason, didn't get posted. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141202114456.GA27172@stephen-desktop
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Le Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:05:09 -0800, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com a écrit : On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: [snip] as the default init more distros will follow suit, Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of those that don't. As as option at install time or during an upgrade? Don't know of any. As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd will even work with Slackware. Well according to the following wikipedia page, Patrick Volkerding (Slackware founder) has not completely ruled you systemd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141202130423.3b09a...@soldur.bigon.be
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: [snip] as the default init more distros will follow suit, Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of those that don't. As as option at install time or during an upgrade? Don't know of any. That do not include systemd as a package. As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd will even work with Slackware. Um, I've heard that said before - but I like to check my facts (especially when issues are emotive, *and* when outside parties may have an interest in creating dissension and disorder), so I've read Patrick's opinions[*1]. He's never said that (though I'd welcome an authoritive correction). Understandably cautious for someone who manages a huge workload almost single-handedly. He has said he intends to remain with the current init system - that he likes some of the abilities of systemd, and that one day he may move to systemd.[*1] Which is not close to absolutely refuses to use systemd. [*1]:- http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/ and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those that produce have their freedom of choice constrained by users. I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely to do anything other than destroy, given that the user has a choice. User's do constrain. Within some limits (e.g. if the developer cares primarily about the users i.e. if the main motivation is not to scratch an itch). And that few users can agree on what they want except on a few minor points, it is an impossibility to extrapolate constrain to define individually defined outcomes. When users dictate often times the constraint results only in the destruction of that which the dictators hoped to shape. They even dictate. Some times. The most vocal minority demand - I see little evidence that does anything but the opposite of what they expect. Sadly many believe that criticism is a right, and also something for which they are owed. Like similar behavior in restaurants it's ultimately unhealthy for the consumer unless done carefully, politely, and with the full understanding of possible reactions from the producers. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. Sound practice in commercial enterprise - not in FOSS. And even in commerce the business that's wise recognises it can't please everyone so it allocates resources in the most profitable manner - which means it never satisfies all possible customers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Depends on what 'you' call *default*. It implies a choice - as opposed to *mandatory*. You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the system is running. It will soon be possible to choose before installation. And always a reboot is Mandatory to me would imply you cannot change it at all. Ever. The system wouldn't work if you did. But we know that is not the case. More importantly it depends on whether using default as a measure of support for your argument(?) is relevant. Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. Assuming your best intentions - that you meant supported, it's a *much* longer list. A shorter list is those distributions that *do not* include systemd. I meant those distros that install systemd as the init at install time. Which is default and mandatory. I don't now the answer (either way) - though I'd be interested in knowing (CoreOS?). I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. A novel fork in that it appears to focus more on raising money than producing code, and that it's developers are anonymous. An interesting concept for a FOSS project. Aside from those peculiarities (and the hype associated
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Laurent Bigonville bi...@debian.org wrote: Le Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:05:09 -0800, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com a écrit : On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: [snip] as the default init more distros will follow suit, Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of those that don't. As as option at install time or during an upgrade? Don't know of any. As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd will even work with Slackware. Well according to the following wikipedia page, Patrick Volkerding (Slackware founder) has not completely ruled you systemd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption Hmm. So I do a web search on Patrick Volkerding systemd and find he's tweeted twice about systemd in the last four tweets. One was a bit of an enigmatic tweet about crying into his coffee when he read boycottsystemd.org and realized he wasn't reading the Onion. https://twitter.com/volkerdi/status/460102616991547393 The other was a re-tweet from Kiki Novak. https://twitter.com/kikinovak/status/535861951642210304 FWIW -- Joel Rees Be careful when you look at conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43ip2ukmt-p3vppv4czjtvsnz+rnywbtsvgctl0-pt4f...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Le 02.12.2014 08:05, Patrick Bartek a écrit : and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those that produce have their freedom of choice constrained by users. I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely to do anything other than destroy, given that the user has a choice. User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. Really? Tss... How many projects have you, as a user, constrained to do something? Being commercial or not... You may had some success in commercial softwares, because of contracts, but for small projects, or projects were the developpers are not paid, when they only contribute because they wan't to use it, but without having to suffer some bug or another, or with a feature they would like to have, I sincerely doubt you had constrained anyone. Honestly... if you want to constrain people on their spare time, if you want to remove us the last part of fun we can have in programming, then... well, people wont listen you, to stay polite. And it's normal. Open source developpers are not all paid for what they do. Only a minority is, and in this minority, I am not sure that the bigger part actually live from open source softwares. Of course, programming is just one of the various possible contributions to a project. But, most open source project starts by pure code and/or software engineering steps (most, because not games, for example, and there are probably some other around), and by that first base of code might, or might not, have contributions on other subjects (which are important too, I do not deny that. Even knowing that someone tried what you did may be a contribution which helps to continue working). But, maybe you know about a project which started by bug reports or translations on an empty codebase? Not a game, of course, that kind of projects definitely needs lots of very various skills. It may be why there are not a lot of pure FOSS games of high quality (I mean, there are many of them, but I feel like the ratio, when compared to other softwares, is by far lower that the same ratio in closed source world. Oh, and I mean graphical games, of course, not ascii ones): it does need by far more different skills than to build, say, a text editor. Oh. And, you forgot something. FOSS developpers are the users of their work, unlike in commercial softwares. And it changes *a lot* of things, if not everything. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/f1a2fd0a224376265f2137f548c5c...@neutralite.org
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: [snip] as the default init more distros will follow suit, Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of those that don't. As as option at install time or during an upgrade? Don't know of any. That do not include systemd as a package. As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd will even work with Slackware. Um, I've heard that said before - but I like to check my facts (especially when issues are emotive, *and* when outside parties may have an interest in creating dissension and disorder), so I've read Patrick's opinions[*1]. He's never said that (though I'd welcome an authoritive correction). Understandably cautious for someone who manages a huge workload almost single-handedly. He has said he intends to remain with the current init system - that he likes some of the abilities of systemd, and that one day he may move to systemd.[*1] Which is not close to absolutely refuses to use systemd. [*1]:- http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/ Let's quote a little bit more of that, just for completeness: -- ... Whether we end up using them or not remains to be seen. It's quite possible that we won't end up having a choice in the matter depending on how development that's out of our hands goes. It's hard to say whether moving to these technologies would be a good thing for Slackware overall. Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable, and I'm guessing that's what most Slackware users prefer too. I don't spend all day rebooting my machine, and having looked at systemd config files it seems to me a very foreign way of controlling a system to me, and attempting to control services, sockets, devices, mounts, etc., all within one daemon flies in the face of the UNIX concept of doing one thing and doing it well. ... -- That, and some tweets that are more recent than this interview, leaves me with a slightly different impression than neutral wait-and-see. [...] -- Joel Rees Be careful when you look at conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iP4nqA=JMzpN1Oawo7rSdS8FQXwszRH8HzubjCv=gg...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/02/2014 at 07:23 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: Depends on what 'you' call *default*. It implies a choice - as opposed to *mandatory*. You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the system is running. It will soon be possible to choose before installation. And always a reboot is (I presume this was truncated somehow?) Do you have a citation for this? The last I saw on that subject was when Jonas Smedgaard CCed debian-devel on a post to bug #668001, in the ensuing discussion of which Cyril Brulebois said that [1] I've already mentioned that having debootstrap stop pulling an init system might make sense at some point. In the meanwhile, debootstrap is not going to receive any patching in the dependency resolving area. and that [2] the decision was made that no, it won't be touched for jessie which sounds to me as if such a change is not going to happen soon. [1] 20141125173133.gk6...@mraw.org [2] 20141125185048.gf3...@mraw.org -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 2 December 2014 at 23:53, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Laurent Bigonville bi...@debian.org wrote: Le Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:05:09 -0800, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com a écrit : On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: snipped As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd will even work with Slackware. Well according to the following wikipedia page, Patrick Volkerding (Slackware founder) has not completely ruled you systemd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption Hmm. So I do a web search on Patrick Volkerding systemd and find he's tweeted twice about systemd in the last four tweets. One was a bit of an enigmatic tweet about crying into his coffee when he read boycottsystemd.org and realized he wasn't reading the Onion. https://twitter.com/volkerdi/status/460102616991547393 Enigmatic? Doesn't seem difficult to understand. Patrick has a very dry sense of humor and is fond of satire. For those that haven't read it The Onion is a satirical site (and a good one)[*1]. When I first looked at the boycottsystemd site I thought it was someone sending up the anti-system extremists - then I realised they were serious. Patrick cried in his coffee when he realised boycottsystemd was *not* a satire. (is that less enigmatic for you?) The response to the comments on it would be whoosh. [*1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion http://www.theonion.com/ Example of the sort of The Onion article that makes it easy to facepalm at boycottsystemd:- *Girl Scouts To Sell Cookies Online* Good. This should help some of the shyer girls become more comfortable talking to strangers online.” He seemed pretty non-enigmatic here to:- http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/ snipped Kind regards -- Just because somebody hears something you say, or reads something that you write, doesn’t mean you’ve reached them. With reading comprehension being what it is in the U. S., you can safely toss that one out the window. If you want to judge by the listening habits of people who buy records, the first thing they do is put it on and talk over it ~ Frank Zappa -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAMt2cQMjAvTpditYvb=EXMjVzZ_XqM2RhjN7yNAEzE5hL=5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 3 December 2014 at 01:18, Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Scott Ferguson scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: snipped As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. snipped He's never said that (though I'd welcome an authoritive correction). Understandably cautious for someone who manages a huge workload almost single-handedly. He has said he intends to remain with the current init system - that he likes some of the abilities of systemd, and that one day he may move to systemd.[*1] Which is not close to absolutely refuses to use systemd. [*1]:- http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/ Let's quote a little bit more of that, just for completeness: Did you read what you are responding to - or what you've just quoted?? -- ... Whether we end up using them or not remains to be seen. It's quite possible that we won't end up having a choice in the matter depending on how development that's out of our hands goes. It's hard to say whether moving to these technologies would be a good thing for Slackware overall. Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable, and I'm guessing that's what most Slackware users prefer too. I don't spend all day rebooting my machine, and having looked at systemd config files it seems to me a very foreign way of controlling a system to me, and attempting to control services, sockets, devices, mounts, etc., all within one daemon flies in the face of the UNIX concept of doing one thing and doing it well. ... -- That, and some tweets that are more recent than this interview, leaves me with a slightly different impression than neutral wait-and-see. [facepalm] [...] -- Joel Rees Be careful when you look at conspiracy. Look first in your own heart, and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy. Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well. Brilliant satire(?) Kind regards -- Let's not be too rough on our own ignorance; it's what makes America great! ~ Frank Zappa -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/camt2cqnqtg2wypyw7wgtv92c4rvh10j+c9d_t+j1wxzqdjj...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 3 December 2014 at 01:36, The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: On 12/02/2014 at 07:23 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: Depends on what 'you' call *default*. It implies a choice - as opposed to *mandatory*. You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the system is running. It will soon be possible to choose before installation. And always a reboot is (I presume this was truncated somehow?) Yes, sorry. Flat battery - resumed from Draft and missed that. Should have been:- And always a reboot is necessary after installation - so a preseed/late_command will allow you to boot for the first time into non-systemd system. preseed/late_command=in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core A simple bash script makes rebuilding an install CD to include that preseed parameter a simple - quick process for those that want to use the GUI install option. Do you have a citation for this? I'm glad you asked. No - I presumed that amongst the lots of experts so opposed to the late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread, done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?) snipped the decision was made that no, it won't be touched for jessie which sounds to me as if such a change is not going to happen soon. That I strongly suspect is correct - but not for the same reasons. snipped Kind regards -- Being cynical is the only way to deal with modern civilization — you can't just swallow it whole ~ Frank Zappa -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAMt2cQMVCimPeA13jDxJ3X�gtlmzzegsyzb4tc+8cyawy...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote: Do you have a citation for this? I'm glad you asked. No - I presumed that amongst the lots of experts so opposed to the late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread, done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?) You do us a service by raising this. We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to preseed d-i to have a clean install. Not one person on -user or -devel has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it. Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn apparently works into does work or does not work. Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141202193623.go3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/02/2014 02:34 AM, Stephan Seitz wrote: Debian has kindled a big fire with this systemd crap. It’s time to jump ship before you only have ashes. Shade and sweet water! Stephan yes! Yes! RUNAWAY!! slaps helmet :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547e153c.6080...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Brian wrote: On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote: Do you have a citation for this? I'm glad you asked. No - I presumed that amongst the lots of experts so opposed to the late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread, done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?) You do us a service by raising this. We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to preseed d-i to have a clean install. Not one person on -user or -devel has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it. Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn apparently works into does work or does not work. Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise. Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling. One has to build a custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it. That's bit of a complicated procedure. Personally, I'd rather wait for the installer team to fix a bug that has rather broad implications. I also seem to recall seeing at least one report of someone who'd done the test. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547e34ae.6010...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 16:52:46 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: Brian wrote: On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote: Do you have a citation for this? I'm glad you asked. No - I presumed that amongst the lots of experts so opposed to the late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread, done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?) You do us a service by raising this. We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to preseed d-i to have a clean install. Not one person on -user or -devel has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it. Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn apparently works into does work or does not work. Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise. Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling. One has to build a custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it. That's bit of a complicated procedure. Why does debootstrap have to be downloaded and a custom copy of d-i built? Suppose the patch were applied to debootstrap in a running d-i. Why wouldn't that be sufficient for testing? That's a straightforward technical question, incidentally. Personally, I'd rather wait for the installer team to fix a bug that has rather broad implications. In other words, you'd rather not know whether the patch works (whether the procedure is complicated or not). It cannot be that important to you then. I also seem to recall seeing at least one report of someone who'd done the test. Not what I would call substantial feedback. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/02122014222318.249335dea...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Brian wrote: On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 16:52:46 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: Brian wrote: On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote: Do you have a citation for this? I'm glad you asked. No - I presumed that amongst the lots of experts so opposed to the late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread, done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?) You do us a service by raising this. We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to preseed d-i to have a clean install. Not one person on -user or -devel has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it. Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn apparently works into does work or does not work. Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise. Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling. One has to build a custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it. That's bit of a complicated procedure. Why does debootstrap have to be downloaded and a custom copy of d-i built? Suppose the patch were applied to debootstrap in a running d-i. Why wouldn't that be sufficient for testing? That's a straightforward technical question, incidentally. Also a straightforward technical question: How would one actually do that? It looks to me like d-i starts up, then pulls in debootstrap and starts it running. I've spent a little bit of time looking at how d-i figures out where to look for debootstrap, and got to the point of concluding that I either had to put the patched debootstrap in the repo (not going to happen) or build a customized d-i that looks for the patched debootstrap somewhere else. That's the point at which I decided that, not being much of a c coder, I really didn't want to mess with things. If you have a straightforward suggestion, please Personally, I'd rather wait for the installer team to fix a bug that has rather broad implications. In other words, you'd rather not know whether the patch works (whether the procedure is complicated or not). It cannot be that important to you then. No... I kind of figure that deboostrap should actually work properly, and that as a core piece of system code, the maintenance team should care enough to actually fix this kind of bug. It was sitting there long enough. That, in itself, is a datapoint for me in making decisions about future reliance on Debian. I also seem to recall seeing at least one report of someone who'd done the test. Not what I would call substantial feedback. True enough. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547e4d20.6000...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 18:37:04 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: Brian wrote: On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 16:52:46 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: Brian wrote: On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote: Do you have a citation for this? I'm glad you asked. No - I presumed that amongst the lots of experts so opposed to the late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread, done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?) You do us a service by raising this. We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to preseed d-i to have a clean install. Not one person on -user or -devel has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it. Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn apparently works into does work or does not work. Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise. Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling. One has to build a custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it. That's bit of a complicated procedure. Why does debootstrap have to be downloaded and a custom copy of d-i built? Suppose the patch were applied to debootstrap in a running d-i. Why wouldn't that be sufficient for testing? That's a straightforward technical question, incidentally. Also a straightforward technical question: How would one actually do that? I think I asked my question first. :) It looks to me like d-i starts up, then pulls in debootstrap and starts it running. I've spent a little bit of time looking at how Debootstrap only runs when the base system is installed. I assume it runs whatever is in /usr/sbin and /usr/share/debootstrap. Now - what happens if you alter these files before installing the base system? d-i figures out where to look for debootstrap, and got to the point of concluding that I either had to put the patched debootstrap in the repo (not going to happen) or build a customized d-i that looks for the patched debootstrap somewhere else. That's the point at which I decided that, not being much of a c coder, I really didn't want to mess with things. If you have a straightforward suggestion, please Debootstrap is mainly a bunch of scripts. The patch is applied to the scripts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/03122014002004.ff86083b4...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547caf6c.9010...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Just to be clear... you're saying that Slackware, Gentoo, and their derivatives are not distros of merit? Or, for that matter, BSD and illumos derivatives? At least some of us see the move to systemd (and it's hairball of related code) as turning Debian from perhaps the premier distro, into something no longer of merit. Some parties are simply not worth attending (better never, than late, so to speak). Just one man's opinion. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547cb738.70...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. So, it's started. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141201131839.52dd4...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Monday 01 December 2014 21:18:39 Patrick Bartek wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. Ubuntu has announced that it is switching. Lisi I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. So, it's started. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201412012218.57850.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 12/01/2014 04:18 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. So, it's started. Thank $DEITY$. By the way, the list provided is about 90% of the total usage in servers and desktops. Include Ubuntu and it's flavors as well. :/ Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547cf925.90...@gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once If? systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian ? Perl might be, but it seems a little hyperbolic to say systemd is (anymore then dev/devfs/Xfree-86/OpenOffice was). as the default init more distros will follow suit, Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of those that don't. and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those that produce have their freedom of choice constrained by users. I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely to do anything other than destroy, given that the user has a choice. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Depends on what 'you' call *default*. It implies a choice - as opposed to *mandatory*. More importantly it depends on whether using default as a measure of support for your argument(?) is relevant. Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. Assuming your best intentions - that you meant supported, it's a *much* longer list. A shorter list is those distributions that *do not* include systemd. I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. A novel fork in that it appears to focus more on raising money than producing code, and that it's developers are anonymous. An interesting concept for a FOSS project. Aside from those peculiarities (and the hype associated with it) perhaps it will turn out to be a more recent version of xwin? (apologies to Keith Packard if the comparison is unjustified). snipped I tend to agree with Theodore Ts'o[*1] in that systemd is a worthy project designed to fix the failings and overcome the limitations of sysinitv, and that it 'might' be moving too fast. In that light I applaud the Debian decision to make it the *default*[*2] in Jessie so that it's failings can be exposed to a wider audience for the purposes of assessment and improvement. [*1] and Linux Torvalds, (oft misquoted) http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd [*2] while maintaining support for alternative inits where individual developer's and packager's time constraints/motivations allow. Hopefully returning the list to it's correct discussions Yours in Debian solidarity -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/camt2cqn6dz1f1ehspx_kr+hb0n5ucn0sag_p5osp9r-svx5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 12/01/2014 04:18 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. So, it's started. Thank $DEITY$. By the way, the list provided is about 90% of the total usage in servers and desktops. Include Ubuntu and it's flavors as well. :/ Ric But how many of the systemd versions are actually in use in all those servers and desktops? More importantly: Who will be upgrading or installing the systemd versions in the future? Will they replace systemd with another init if they do? Will be interesting to see what transpires. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141201214850.21faa...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote: On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek nemomm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote: On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: [snip] as the default init more distros will follow suit, Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of those that don't. As as option at install time or during an upgrade? Don't know of any. As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd will even work with Slackware. and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those that produce have their freedom of choice constrained by users. I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely to do anything other than destroy, given that the user has a choice. User's do contrain. They even dictate. Always have. Developers should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need. Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business. Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just good business. Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric Depends on what you mean by distros of merit. Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Depends on what 'you' call *default*. It implies a choice - as opposed to *mandatory*. You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the system is running. Mandatory to me would imply you cannot change it at all. Ever. The system wouldn't work if you did. But we know that is not the case. More importantly it depends on whether using default as a measure of support for your argument(?) is relevant. Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So, 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list. Assuming your best intentions - that you meant supported, it's a *much* longer list. A shorter list is those distributions that *do not* include systemd. I meant those distros that install systemd as the init at install time. I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian. Debuan, I think it's called. A novel fork in that it appears to focus more on raising money than producing code, and that it's developers are anonymous. An interesting concept for a FOSS project. Aside from those peculiarities (and the hype associated with it) perhaps it will turn out to be a more recent version of xwin? (apologies to Keith Packard if the comparison is unjustified). Except for a quick skim of Debuan's homepage, I know little of it. Only that development hasn't even begun. Best to check back in a year to see how it's going. snipped I tend to agree with Theodore Ts'o[*1] in that systemd is a worthy project designed to fix the failings and overcome the limitations of sysinitv, and that it 'might' be moving too fast. In that light I applaud the Debian decision to make it the *default*[*2] in Jessie so that it's failings can be exposed to a wider audience for the purposes of assessment and improvement. Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of systemd. I'll be interested to see what the release after Jessie is like. Until then, I good with Wheezy. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141201230509.36ea1...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 01:18:39PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros besides Jessie were using systemd as the default: Fedora 15, RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today Only SUSE Server 12 uses systemd, but for me it is quite unusable. After the LDAP configuration the system doesn’t shutdown anymore. Luckily there will be a SP4 for SLES11 (of course without systemd), so I don’t have to worry about it. Debian has kindled a big fire with this systemd crap. It’s time to jump ship before you only have ashes. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
[I've somehow deleted the other messages, so this one will have to do] On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 01:59:02PM +0100, Jochen Spieker wrote: Patrick Bartek: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. Semantics. Nothing is final yet, jessie is still a moving target IOW not yet stable, so not just semantics. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00151.html -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141130081412.GB3631@tal
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: [I've somehow deleted the other messages, so this one will have to do] On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 01:59:02PM +0100, Jochen Spieker wrote: Patrick Bartek: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. Semantics. Nothing is final yet, jessie is still a moving target IOW not yet stable, so not just semantics. Yes. Semantics. Jessie not being Stable doesn't make Testing any less Jessie regardless of its state of development. https://www.debian.org/releases/ The current testing distribution is jessie. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00151.html Aware of this from other sources, but mostly pointless now as Testing/Jessie was frozen 5 Nov. So, no major changes. Maybe, the release after Jessie will have the option to pick your init system. Just be grateful the support for REPLACING systemd with sysvinit is available and easy to do. There are work-arounds for dist-upgrading to Jessie without installing systemd as the init, but you'll still have systemd dependencies (libraries usually) for software like GNOME3 or cups or udev to deal with. And you'll have to be on guard that some app doesn't pull in systemd in its entirety as the init. Work-arounds for that, too. I'd rather not have to deal with it at all. As for me, Wheezy is working fine, and I have no plans of dist-upgrading to Jessie, or even clean installing it other than as a learning experience. I'm going to see what transpires with the release after Jessie before making any decisions regarding my future use of Debian. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141130171536.2a767...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 01/12/14 01:15, Patrick Bartek wrote: There are work-arounds for dist-upgrading to Jessie without installing systemd as the init, but you'll still have systemd dependencies (libraries usually) for software like GNOME3 or cups or udev to deal with. And you'll have to be on guard that some app doesn't pull in systemd in its entirety as the init. There is a simple mechanism, described in the draft Release Notes for Debian jessie, which can be used to guarantee that APT will not attempt to install the package systemd-sysv (which makes systemd be the system initialization and service supervision daemon) when upgrading from wheezy (or at any subsequent point unless and until you, by deliberate action, remove the pin): https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system Having taken this step, there is then no need for you to be personally on guard against having your init system changed to systemd, as your computer will be faithfully on guard on your behalf. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547bc9c8.9080...@zen.co.uk
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: [I've somehow deleted the other messages, so this one will have to do] On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 01:59:02PM +0100, Jochen Spieker wrote: Patrick Bartek: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. Semantics. Nothing is final yet, jessie is still a moving target IOW not yet stable, so not just semantics. Yes. Semantics. Jessie not being Stable doesn't make Testing any less Jessie regardless of its state of development. https://www.debian.org/releases/ The current testing distribution is jessie. https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00151.html Aware of this from other sources, but mostly pointless now as Testing/Jessie was frozen 5 Nov. So, no major changes. Maybe, the release after Jessie will have the option to pick your init system. Just be grateful the support for REPLACING systemd with sysvinit is available and easy to do. There are work-arounds for dist-upgrading to Jessie without installing systemd as the init, but you'll still have systemd dependencies (libraries usually) for software like GNOME3 or cups or udev to deal with. And you'll have to be on guard that some app doesn't pull in systemd in its entirety as the init. Work-arounds for that, too. I'd rather not have to deal with it at all. As for me, Wheezy is working fine, and I have no plans of dist-upgrading to Jessie, or even clean installing it other than as a learning experience. I'm going to see what transpires with the release after Jessie before making any decisions regarding my future use of Debian. Likewise, for me (and in some VMs Squeeze and Lenny are working just fine). I was waiting for Jessie to stabilize to upgrade everything, but I think I'll just upgrade everything to Wheezy and stand pat for a while. I'm predicting (or maybe that's hoping) that Jessie proves to be Debian's equivalent of Microsoft Vista (with Wheezy as XP). Maybe, just maybe, sanity will return for Jessie + 1. (You heard it here first, folks.) Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/547bd060.40...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote: Patrick Bartek wrote: [big snip] As for me, Wheezy is working fine, and I have no plans of dist-upgrading to Jessie, or even clean installing it other than as a learning experience. I'm going to see what transpires with the release after Jessie before making any decisions regarding my future use of Debian. Likewise, for me (and in some VMs Squeeze and Lenny are working just fine). I was waiting for Jessie to stabilize to upgrade everything, but I think I'll just upgrade everything to Wheezy and stand pat for a while. I'm predicting (or maybe that's hoping) that Jessie proves to be Debian's equivalent of Microsoft Vista (with Wheezy as XP). Maybe, just maybe, sanity will return for Jessie + 1. (You heard it here first, folks.) I fear that once systemd is firmly entrenched in Debian as the default init more distros will follow suit, and more and more developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it, as a dependency for the features it offers. I doubt whether future Debian releases will offer an install option menu for alternate inits as is currently done with desktop GUIs. Too much work and duplication. For example, you'd need a systemd udev as well as one that's not, etc. Or a clean systemd that has no such dependencies. Or opt for compiling your system (or parts of it) from source. Lots of work. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141130202731.06083...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Patrick Bartek: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. Semantics. Ah, my favorite movie quote: I'm offering you my body and you're offering me semantics! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109445/quotes?item=qt0379290 J. -- Hell will have perfume. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 11/27/2014 at 11:08 PM, Chris Bannister wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:10:23PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote: On 11/27/2014 at 09:33 PM, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. My understanding of the way the Debian release codenames work / are used is that current testing (AKA the current testing release) is codenamed jessie, and when it changes from being a testing release to being the latest stable release it will still be codenamed jessie, and the new testing will be - or, as the case happens to be, has been - given a new codename. Yes, of course. But read a bit deeper. I infer that you are indicating that he was stating that the fact that systemd cannot not be installed in current testing does not mean that systemd will not be able to not be installed when current testing is released as the new stable. One: This does not make any difference. The new stable will be jessie, but current testing (in its current, still-not-finalized state) is also jessie, and therefore - right at the moment - it is accurate to state that systemd cannot not be installed in jessie. (The same way it would still be accurate to say Jessie can't dance even if Jessie is going to be starting dance classes next month and may develop into a capable dancer.) Two: If I'm following the discussion correctly, A: the problem leading to the result of systemd cannot not be installed in jessie is a particular bug against debootstrap, B: a patch which fixes this bug exists, but C: the maintainer of debootstrap has stated explicitly [1] that he will under no circumstances consider applying that patch for jessie at this point, and may not even consider applying it in the near term for post-jessie. If that is the case, then there is essentially no chance that the statement will not apply to newstable jessie just as well as it does to current testing jessie. [1] 20141125173133.gk6...@mraw.org - plus the surrounding thread, for context in both directions -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Don Armstrong wrote: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Patrick Bartek wrote: Now the strange thing: I've done some research, and it seems that all the init replacement procedures start with first replacing systemd with sysvinit, then proceeding with replacing sysvinit with the desired init. Anyone have info or instructions to the contrary? If you want upstart, you can just install upstart instead of sysvinit-core. I wasn't aware of this. But I decided against upstart early in my research. So, my reading on it was rather limited. I'm concerned specifically with runit. Runit is not configured to be directly replaced without manual intervention. Install sysvinit-core or whatever, then run the manual configuration to run runit as /sbin/init. This I was aware of. Just hoped runit could directly replace systemd even with manual configuration without first installing sysvinit-core. Trying to avoid all those sysv scripts being installed. Thanks for your response. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141128102157.7b48a...@debian7.boseck208.net
Replacing systemd in Jessie
It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. It can only be replaced once first installed unless one wishes to create a custom CD with another init. I don't. Even preseeding won't accomplish this. Recommended preseeding procedures I've seen just automate the replacement process. Now the strange thing: I've done some research, and it seems that all the init replacement procedures start with first replacing systemd with sysvinit, then proceeding with replacing sysvinit with the desired init. Anyone have info or instructions to the contrary? I'd like to be able to just install the desired init without an intermediate step. I'm concerned specifically with runit. Thanks. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141127173157.06852...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87h9xk3vh1@thumper.dhh.gt.org
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 11/27/2014 at 09:33 PM, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. My understanding of the way the Debian release codenames work / are used is that current testing (AKA the current testing release) is codenamed jessie, and when it changes from being a testing release to being the latest stable release it will still be codenamed jessie, and the new testing will be - or, as the case happens to be, has been - given a new codename. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. Semantics. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141127200235.46040...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:10:23PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote: On 11/27/2014 at 09:33 PM, John Hasler wrote: Patrick Bartek writes: It seems systemd cannot not be installed in Jessie. You mean Testing. Jessie has not been released. My understanding of the way the Debian release codenames work / are used is that current testing (AKA the current testing release) is codenamed jessie, and when it changes from being a testing release to being the latest stable release it will still be codenamed jessie, and the new testing will be - or, as the case happens to be, has been - given a new codename. Yes, of course. But read a bit deeper. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141128040832.GA26258@tal
Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Patrick Bartek wrote: Now the strange thing: I've done some research, and it seems that all the init replacement procedures start with first replacing systemd with sysvinit, then proceeding with replacing sysvinit with the desired init. Anyone have info or instructions to the contrary? If you want upstart, you can just install upstart instead of sysvinit-core. I'm concerned specifically with runit. Runit is not configured to be directly replaced without manual intervention. Install sysvinit-core or whatever, then run the manual configuration to run runit as /sbin/init. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com In all matters of government, the correct answer is usually: Do nothing -- Robert Heinlein _Time Enough For Love_ p428 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141128043300.gq25...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
