Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming]

Subject: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

Good day from Singapore,

Article: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
Author: Nick Kolakowski
Date Published: 14 October 2019
Link: 
https://insights.dice.com/2019/10/14/7-programming-languages-employers-want/

This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
C++, Java, and Python?

Thank you very much.





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The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link: 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html



Singaporean Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017) and in Taiwan (5
Aug 2019):

[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

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Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Felix Perez]

El mié., 18 de sep. de 2019 a la(s) 20:02, Fran Torres
(frantorresgall...@gmail.com) escribió:
>
> Buenas,
>
> el problema del bottom posting, es que cuando necesitas encontrar una
> solución x a un problema z de una forma rápida y eficiente (aquí
> también entra la accesibilidad), el bottom posting no ayuda...
>
> Fran.
>
Accesibilidad si puede ser, podría implementarse una solución que
permitiera invertir el orden de lectura del correo..

¿Pero acaso cuando buscas en un libro esperar encontrar la respuesta
en el primer capítulo o en la primera hoja?

Por eso se marca el tema como [Solucionado] así si no quieres darte
"el trabajo" de leer el hilo completo te guías por el asunto (por eso
la importancia del asunto) y por el [Solucionado].

Es correo lo envié a la lista ya que me llegó al privado, lo cual es
otro error recurrente.

Saludos.

> El 19/9/19, Felix Perez  escribió:
> > El mié., 18 de sep. de 2019 a la(s) 16:38, juan
> > (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió:
> >>
> >>
> >> El 18/9/19 a las 18:10, Felix Perez escribió:
> >> > El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan
> >> > (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió:
> >> >> No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo
> >> >> hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy
> >> >> fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba,
> >> >> pero lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el
> >> >> verdadero desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y
> >> >> organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y
> >> >> otros de otra.
> >> >>
> >> > No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una
> >> > pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen?
> >> >
> >> > Saludos.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Lo concidero la forma natural porque es una respuesta a algo ya leido,
> >> muy diferete a la cominicación hablada, imagina hablando antes de
> >> respoder repetir todo lo ya dicho
> >>
> > La verdad no se te entiende mucho, pero no es natural el top posting,
> > si el bottom posting, ejemplos:
> >
> > escrito:
> > - leo
> > - contesto
> > - leo
> > - contesto
> >
> > hablado:
> > - escucho
> > - contesto
> > - escucho
> > - contesto
> >
> >
> > Saludos.
> >
> > --
> > usuario linux  #274354
> > normas de la lista:  http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista
> > como hacer preguntas inteligentes:
> > http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html
> >
> >



-- 
usuario linux  #274354
normas de la lista:  http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista
como hacer preguntas inteligentes:
http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Felix Perez]

El mié., 18 de sep. de 2019 a la(s) 16:38, juan
(juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió:
>
>
> El 18/9/19 a las 18:10, Felix Perez escribió:
> > El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan
> > (juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió:
> >> No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía 
> >> siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil 
> >> seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más 
> >> importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero 
> >> desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar 
> >> discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.
> >>
> > No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una
> > pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen?
> >
> > Saludos.
> >
> >
> Lo concidero la forma natural porque es una respuesta a algo ya leido,
> muy diferete a la cominicación hablada, imagina hablando antes de
> respoder repetir todo lo ya dicho
>
La verdad no se te entiende mucho, pero no es natural el top posting,
si el bottom posting, ejemplos:

escrito:
- leo
- contesto
- leo
- contesto

hablado:
- escucho
- contesto
- escucho
- contesto


Saludos.

--
usuario linux  #274354
normas de la lista:  http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista
como hacer preguntas inteligentes:
http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[juan]

El 18/9/19 a las 18:10, Felix Perez escribió:

El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan
(juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió:

No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía 
siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir 
un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante 
es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las 
complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo 
hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.


No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una
pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen?

Saludos.


Lo concidero la forma natural porque es una respuesta a algo ya leido, 
muy diferete a la cominicación hablada, imagina hablando antes de 
respoder repetir todo lo ya dicho

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Felix Perez]

El jue., 22 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 07:17, Debian
(javier.debian.bb...@gmail.com) escribió:
>
> Sí.
> Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las
> normas.
> Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas desde lo
> alto.
>
> Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las
> normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente.
>
Yo tampoco ni siquiera lo había pensado.

> Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y llegar
> a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad.
>

Tal y como cuando un usuario señala que se le envía copia al privado,
el usuario podría solicitar que se le conteste con top posting.

Saludos.

> Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos
> necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas hay
> que mantener ciertas normas.
>
> JAP
>
>
>
> El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió:
> > |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico 
> > antes mencionado
> > por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta
> > lista? ¿hay uno?|
> >
> > |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen
> > signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo,
> > eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como
> > los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede
> > construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando
> > sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero
> > excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su
> > computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc
> > |
> >
>


-- 
usuario linux  #274354
normas de la lista:  http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista
como hacer preguntas inteligentes:
http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Felix Perez]

El mié., 21 de ago. de 2019 a la(s) 13:55, juan
(juansanti...@riseup.net) escribió:
>
> No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo hacía 
> siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy fácil seguir 
> un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero lo más importante 
> es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero desbarajuste y las 
> complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar discusiones vienen cuanto unos 
> lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.
>
No, no es la forma natural ¿o tú respondes antes que te hagan una
pregunta? ¿o respondes antes que te hablen?

Saludos.


-- 
usuario linux  #274354
normas de la lista:  http://wiki.debian.org/es/NormasLista
como hacer preguntas inteligentes:
http://www.sindominio.net/ayuda/preguntas-inteligentes.html

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Jaime Casanova]

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:40 PM Jaime Casanova
 wrote:
>
> Sin embargo, el hacerlo así no es una cuestión de debian por ejemplo
> en el rfc 1855 (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt) se incluye este
> párrafo:
>  """
> - Be brief without being overly terse.  When replying to a message,
>   include enough original material to be understood but no more. It
>   is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including
>   all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material.
> """
>

y, por supuesto, este otro párrafo:

"""
- If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
  summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
  enough text of the original to give a context.  This will make
  sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
  Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
  postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
  response to a message before seeing the original.  Giving context
  helps everyone.  But do not include the entire original!

"""

-- 
Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com
Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Jaime Casanova]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:39 AM Paynalton  wrote:
>
> En Debian siempre ha imperado la democracia y, además de ser la mayor base 
> tecnológica de nuestros tiempos, se ha convertido en un ejemplo de lo que una 
> organización democrática bien organizada puede lograr.
>

De hecho, aunque así lo parece en realidad Debian como muchos otros
proyectos de software libre es una *meritocracia*.

>
> Siguiendo esta línea de razonamiento pongo sobre la mesa la siguiente 
> discusión:
>
> La regla de Top Posting y Bottom-Posting fue establecida en un tiempo en que 
> la mayoría de los usuarios Debian usábamos clientes sólo texto por su 
> versatilidad, rapidez y muchas otras cosas que en su tiempo superaban a 
> cualquier cliente gráfico. Sin embargo a más de una década desde entonces, 
> además del avance en los clientes gráficos tenemos los clientes web, 
> aplicaciones móviles, asistentes y demás tecnologías.
>

Es la primera vez que veo el termino "bottom-posting" pero parece
referirse a escribir las respuestas o comentarios justo abajo de las
preguntas o párrafos que se comentan

Sin embargo, el hacerlo así no es una cuestión de debian por ejemplo
en el rfc 1855 (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt) se incluye este
párrafo:
 """
- Be brief without being overly terse.  When replying to a message,
  include enough original material to be understood but no more. It
  is extremely bad form to simply reply to a message by including
  all the previous message: edit out all the irrelevant material.
"""


--
Jaime Casanova www.2ndQuadrant.com
Professional PostgreSQL: Soporte 24x7 y capacitación

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Abogado]

El 29/8/19 a las 18:26, Paynalton escribió:



El jue., 22 ago. 2019 a las 6:17, Debian 
(<mailto:javier.debian.bb...@gmail.com>>) escribió:


Sí.
Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las
normas.
Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas
desde lo
alto.

Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las
normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente.

Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y
llegar
a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad.

Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos
necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas
hay
que mantener ciertas normas.


Para hacer esto transparente y ordenado quiero proponer un proceso de 
decisión democrático. En la parte de recepción de propuestas sería muy 
útil que se pusiera la fuente del wiki en github para recibir las 
propuestas de modificación y la que resulte ganadora se integra, así 
sólo tendrías que copiar y pegar la fuente de regreso al wiki.


Sería posible que nos ayudaras con eso???


JAP



El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió:
> |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio
tecnológico antes mencionado
> por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas
de esta
> lista? ¿hay uno?|
>
> |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen
> signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje
inclusivo,
> eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz
como
> los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede
> construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y
buscando
> sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero
> excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su
> computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc
> |
    >



Hola

A mi personalmente me da lo mismo Top-posting o Bottom Posting. Lo que 
creo es que las normas se pueden modificar, no estamos en una 
dictadura,pero esa modificación debe ser por acuerdo entre todos y que 
esa norma acordada la cumplamos todos, y no como hasta ahora que unos 
hacen top-posting y otros Bottom-posting.


Saludos

--
Un saludo,
José Manuel
Gran Canaria/España

Si vas a escribir.. piensa en esto:
no digas nada que no sea mas precioso que el silencio!!!

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Paynalton]

El jue., 22 ago. 2019 a las 6:17, Debian ()
escribió:

> Sí.
> Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las
> normas.
> Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas desde lo
> alto.
>
> Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las
> normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente.
>
> Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y llegar
> a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad.
>
> Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos
> necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas hay
> que mantener ciertas normas.
>

Para hacer esto transparente y ordenado quiero proponer un proceso de
decisión democrático. En la parte de recepción de propuestas sería muy útil
que se pusiera la fuente del wiki en github para recibir las propuestas de
modificación y la que resulte ganadora se integra, así sólo tendrías que
copiar y pegar la fuente de regreso al wiki.

Sería posible que nos ayudaras con eso???


>
> JAP
>
>
>
> El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió:
> > |Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico
> antes mencionado
> > por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta
> > lista? ¿hay uno?|
> >
> > |Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen
> > signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo,
> > eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como
> > los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede
> > construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando
> > sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero
> > excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su
> > computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc
> > |
> >
>

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Debian]

Sí.
Nosotros, los propios usuarios, con un acuerdo, podemos modificar las 
normas.
Son normas de convivencia, no leyes escritas en piedra bajadas desde lo 
alto.


Lo que habla Fran, invidente, es algo que debe incorporarse en las 
normas. No se me había pasado siquiera por la mente.


Podemos abrir un hilo con el párrafo a modificar de las normas y llegar 
a un consenso de redacción que incluya el tema de accesibilidad.


Yo, personalmente, soy editor de la Wiki Debian; tengo los permisos 
necesarios; cosa que no es difícil de hacer, pero también en ellas hay 
que mantener ciertas normas.


JAP



El 21/8/19 a las 19:19, juan escribió:
|Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico antes mencionado 
por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta 
lista? ¿hay uno?|


|Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen 
signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, 
eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como 
los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede 
construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando 
sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero 
excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su 
computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc

|

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Debian Forever]

Dios que coñazo de lista ya no aguanto más, me doy de baja

El jue., 22 ago. 2019 0:20, juan  escribió:

> Accesibilidad es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico antes 
> mencionado por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de 
> esta lista? ¿hay uno?
>
> Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen signos
> extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, eso hace
> terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como los que usa el
> compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede construir lenguaje
> influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando sinónimos inclusivos
> que si no incluimos todos los generos pero excluimos a los ciegos, mal
> negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su computadora por la ventana de tanta
> @, x, etc
>
>
> El 21/8/19 a las 22:50, Fran Torres escribió:
>
> Buenas,
>
> yo siempre suelo hacer incapié en la accesibilidad (como usuario
> invidente de debian). De hecho, si no me equivoco, en la lista
> debian-accessibility (también estoy en ella) se utiliza mucho el
> top-posting. Por qué?
> Por que con lectores de pantalla, es mucho más sencillo, rápido y
> eficiente, leer la última respuesta como la primera. la penúltima como
> la segunda y así sucesivamente. Es decir, top-posting.
> A demás, si hay contenido HTML mejor, pues permite saltar a enlaces,
> hencabezados, etc... Siempre que estos estén bien estructurados Pero,
> si se ha de prescindir del HTML, eso no va a afectar a la
> accesibilidad que es el punto importante aquí, mas sí a la eficiencia
> de lectura.
>   Obviamente, estamos hablando de usuarios ciegos que leemos o bien
> con clientes de correo, o bien con interface web. En mi caso, es la
> segunda.
>   Si usase la consola, creo que mi preferencia sería la misma. El
> top-posting, por eso de poder usar la regla de los 2 minutos.
> Encontrar la información en aproximadamente dos minutos.
>
> Como digo, no es cuestión de gustos; si no de accesibilidad.
>
> Fran.
> PD: si son varias preguntas en un solo mensaje, entonces estoy a favor
> de la política de respuesta entre líneas. Pues, ahí también hay
> accesibilidad.
>
>
> El 21/8/19, Debian  
>  escribió:
>
>
>
> El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió:
>
> |No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo
> hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy
> fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero
> lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero
> desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar
> discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.|
>
> |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en
> blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?|
>
>
>
> No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer,
> Por ejemplo,  si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la
> solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra.
>
> Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas
> soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución
> final, si la hubo.
>
>
> |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema
> del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y
> quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo.
> |
>
>
>
> Por supuesto, peeero...
> Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al
> final la palabra "solucionado", así:
>
> Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO]
>
>
> |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la
> ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta
> posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son
> públicos.|
>
> ||
>
>
>
> La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es
> como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a
> "secretear" entre ellos.
>
>
> Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente
> mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas.
>
> JAP
>
>
>
>

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[juan]

|Accesibilidad ||es palabra mayor, debido a eso y al cambio tecnológico antes mencionado 
por otro compañero ¿como es el método para modificar las normas de esta 
lista? ¿hay uno?|


|Posdata un poco off topic: Se agradece enormemente que no se usen 
signos extra alfabéticos ni las famosas x para el lenguaje inclusivo, 
eso hace terriblemente ripiosa la lectura con moduladores de voz como 
los que usa el compañero Fran y yo en ocasiones también, se puede 
construir lenguaje influyente usando solo trucos de redacción y buscando 
sinónimos inclusivos que si no incluimos todos los generos pero 
excluimos a los ciegos, mal negocio, un día un ciego va a tirar su 
computadora por la ventana de tanta @, x, etc

|

|
|

El 21/8/19 a las 22:50, Fran Torres escribió:

Buenas,

yo siempre suelo hacer incapié en la accesibilidad (como usuario
invidente de debian). De hecho, si no me equivoco, en la lista
debian-accessibility (también estoy en ella) se utiliza mucho el
top-posting. Por qué?
Por que con lectores de pantalla, es mucho más sencillo, rápido y
eficiente, leer la última respuesta como la primera. la penúltima como
la segunda y así sucesivamente. Es decir, top-posting.
A demás, si hay contenido HTML mejor, pues permite saltar a enlaces,
hencabezados, etc... Siempre que estos estén bien estructurados Pero,
si se ha de prescindir del HTML, eso no va a afectar a la
accesibilidad que es el punto importante aquí, mas sí a la eficiencia
de lectura.
   Obviamente, estamos hablando de usuarios ciegos que leemos o bien
con clientes de correo, o bien con interface web. En mi caso, es la
segunda.
   Si usase la consola, creo que mi preferencia sería la misma. El
top-posting, por eso de poder usar la regla de los 2 minutos.
Encontrar la información en aproximadamente dos minutos.

Como digo, no es cuestión de gustos; si no de accesibilidad.

Fran.
PD: si son varias preguntas en un solo mensaje, entonces estoy a favor
de la política de respuesta entre líneas. Pues, ahí también hay
accesibilidad.


El 21/8/19, Debian  escribió:


El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió:

|No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo
hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy
fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero
lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero
desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar
discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.|

|Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en
blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?|


No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer,
Por ejemplo,  si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la
solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra.

Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas
soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución
final, si la hubo.


|¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema
del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y
quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo.
|


Por supuesto, peeero...
Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al
final la palabra "solucionado", así:

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO]


|Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la
||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta
posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son
públicos.|

||


La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es
como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a
"secretear" entre ellos.


Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente
mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas.

JAP

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Fran Torres]

Buenas,

yo siempre suelo hacer incapié en la accesibilidad (como usuario
invidente de debian). De hecho, si no me equivoco, en la lista
debian-accessibility (también estoy en ella) se utiliza mucho el
top-posting. Por qué?
Por que con lectores de pantalla, es mucho más sencillo, rápido y
eficiente, leer la última respuesta como la primera. la penúltima como
la segunda y así sucesivamente. Es decir, top-posting.
A demás, si hay contenido HTML mejor, pues permite saltar a enlaces,
hencabezados, etc... Siempre que estos estén bien estructurados Pero,
si se ha de prescindir del HTML, eso no va a afectar a la
accesibilidad que es el punto importante aquí, mas sí a la eficiencia
de lectura.
  Obviamente, estamos hablando de usuarios ciegos que leemos o bien
con clientes de correo, o bien con interface web. En mi caso, es la
segunda.
  Si usase la consola, creo que mi preferencia sería la misma. El
top-posting, por eso de poder usar la regla de los 2 minutos.
Encontrar la información en aproximadamente dos minutos.

Como digo, no es cuestión de gustos; si no de accesibilidad.

Fran.
PD: si son varias preguntas en un solo mensaje, entonces estoy a favor
de la política de respuesta entre líneas. Pues, ahí también hay
accesibilidad.


El 21/8/19, Debian  escribió:
>
>
> El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió:
>> |No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo
>> hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy
>> fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero
>> lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero
>> desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar
>> discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.|
>>
>> |Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en
>> blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?|
>>
>
> No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer,
> Por ejemplo,  si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la
> solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra.
>
> Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas
> soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución
> final, si la hubo.
>
>> |¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema
>> del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y
>> quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo.
>> |
>>
>
> Por supuesto, peeero...
> Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al
> final la palabra "solucionado", así:
>
> Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO]
>
>> |Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la
>> ||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta
>> posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son
>> públicos.|
>>
>> ||
>>
>
> La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es
> como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a
> "secretear" entre ellos.
>
>
> Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente
> mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas.
>
> JAP
>
>

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Debian]

El 21/8/19 a las 14:55, juan escribió:
|No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo 
hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy 
fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero 
lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero 
desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar 
discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.|


|Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en 
blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?|




No, no está mal, muchas veces se suele hacer,
Por ejemplo,  si alguien tuvo que hacer varias pruebas antes de dar la 
solución final, lo que fue intentando, se borra.


Y sólo se deja en el hilo el problema original, y las distintas 
soluciones que se fueron dando en el tiempo que condujeron a la solución 
final, si la hubo.


|¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema 
del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y 
quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo.

|



Por supuesto, peeero...
Lo ideal es que un hilo se cierre, modificando el "Asunto", agregando al 
final la palabra "solucionado", así:


Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting - [SOLUCIONADO]

|Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la 
||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta 
posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son 
públicos.|


||



La respuesta directa a un usuario se considera de MUY MALA educación. Es 
como estar en una reunión entre varias personas, y que dos se pongan a 
"secretear" entre ellos.



Y también es válido responder entre párrafos cuando es conveniente 
mantener un orden en las respuestas a varias preguntas.


JAP

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[juan]

|No sabía que en esta lista hay un regla anti top-postng por eso lo 
hacía siempre, para mi es la forma natural de responder para mi es muy 
fácil seguir un hilo si se que tengo que hacerlo de abajo a arriba, pero 
lo más importante es que nos pongamos de acuerdo, ya que el verdadero 
desbarajuste y las complicaciones a la hora de leer y organizar 
discusiones vienen cuanto unos lo hacemos de una manera y otros de otra.|


|Posdata: ¿lo que acabo de hacer de borrar todo y responder a página en 
blanco está mal visto o rompe alguna regla?|


|¿por que lo hago? Porque no respondo a nadie en particular sino tema 
del hilo que está bastante esparramado y si alguien no conoce el hilo y 
quiere ver antecedentes puede buscar por el tículo.

|

|Y la respuesta directa a un ||usuario||creo que la mayoría la 
||consideramos||improcedente, ||creo que mailman pude bloquear esta 
posibilidad siempre que los correos estén ocultos en esta lista son 
públicos.|


||

Re: OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Debian]

El 21/8/19 a las 12:38, Paynalton escribió:


Hola a todos.

En una sociedad monárquica, la ley refleja la voluntad del soberano, 
estando los súbditos que aceptan su autoridad a obedecer la ley para 
mantener el orden establecido por el monarca.


En una sociedad democrática, al no existir un monarca, la ley se 
convierte en un pacto social en el que los individuos acuerdan normas de 
comportamiento para garantizar la estabilidad y la paz social.


Ninguna ley es permanente, en la monarquía la ley cambia a voluntad del 
monarca y en la democracia cambia bajo acuerdos sociales.


En Debian siempre ha imperado la democracia y, además de ser la mayor 
base tecnológica de nuestros tiempos, se ha convertido en un ejemplo de 
lo que una organización democrática bien organizada puede lograr.


Siguiendo esta línea de razonamiento pongo sobre la mesa la siguiente 
discusión:


La regla de Top Posting y Bottom-Posting fue establecida en un tiempo en 
que la mayoría de los usuarios Debian usábamos clientes sólo texto por 
su versatilidad, rapidez y muchas otras cosas que en su tiempo superaban 
a cualquier cliente gráfico. Sin embargo a más de una década desde 
entonces, además del avance en los clientes gráficos tenemos los 
clientes web, aplicaciones móviles, asistentes y demás tecnologías.


En lo particular he notado que la tecnología ha virado para apoyar el 
Top-posting por encima del Bottom-posting, haciendo que quienes usamos 
estas tecnologías encontremos dificultad en esta práctica.


Obviamente esto es sólo mi perspectiva, falta escuchar la de quienes 
siguen usando clientes sólo texto, invidentes y demás casos que yo no 
puedo contemplar.


En concordancia con el espíritu democrático imperante en la comunidad, 
propongo que este tema sea sometido a debate y la realización de un 
ejercicio democrático para determinar el futuro de esta norma.


Si un ave no rompe su huevo morirá antes de nacer.
Nosotros somos el ave y el mundo es nuestro huevo.
POR LA REVOLUCIÓN DEL MUNDO

Ciudad de México


El "bottom posting" facilita la lectura cuando uno lee hilos de 
problemas viejos.
Y cuando uno empieza a pelearse con configuraciones de servidores en 
bajo nivel, lo viejo se impone a las GUI nuevas, que NUNCA llegan a 
hacer todo lo que es necesario hacer, por ejemplo, en una IPTABLES con 
tres redes en segmentos distintos, contrafuegos y demás.


Además, el formato "sólo texto" ahorra datos en el archivo de correos; 
seamos solidarios.


Por ejemplo, un Zeroshell corriendo en una máquina MUY vieja, y cuando 
digo, MUY, es MUY, fungiendo de contrafuegos, SIEMPRE es mejor acceder a 
funciones de bajo nivel.


Me mantengo en "la antigua".

JAP

OT Top-posting y Bottom Posting

[Paynalton]

Hola a todos.

En una sociedad monárquica, la ley refleja la voluntad del soberano,
estando los súbditos que aceptan su autoridad a obedecer la ley para
mantener el orden establecido por el monarca.

En una sociedad democrática, al no existir un monarca, la ley se convierte
en un pacto social en el que los individuos acuerdan normas de
comportamiento para garantizar la estabilidad y la paz social.

Ninguna ley es permanente, en la monarquía la ley cambia a voluntad del
monarca y en la democracia cambia bajo acuerdos sociales.

En Debian siempre ha imperado la democracia y, además de ser la mayor base
tecnológica de nuestros tiempos, se ha convertido en un ejemplo de lo que
una organización democrática bien organizada puede lograr.

Siguiendo esta línea de razonamiento pongo sobre la mesa la siguiente
discusión:

La regla de Top Posting y Bottom-Posting fue establecida en un tiempo en
que la mayoría de los usuarios Debian usábamos clientes sólo texto por su
versatilidad, rapidez y muchas otras cosas que en su tiempo superaban a
cualquier cliente gráfico. Sin embargo a más de una década desde entonces,
además del avance en los clientes gráficos tenemos los clientes web,
aplicaciones móviles, asistentes y demás tecnologías.

En lo particular he notado que la tecnología ha virado para apoyar el
Top-posting por encima del Bottom-posting, haciendo que quienes usamos
estas tecnologías encontremos dificultad en esta práctica.

Obviamente esto es sólo mi perspectiva, falta escuchar la de quienes siguen
usando clientes sólo texto, invidentes y demás casos que yo no puedo
contemplar.

En concordancia con el espíritu democrático imperante en la comunidad,
propongo que este tema sea sometido a debate y la realización de un
ejercicio democrático para determinar el futuro de esta norma.

Si un ave no rompe su huevo morirá antes de nacer.
Nosotros somos el ave y el mundo es nuestro huevo.
POR LA REVOLUCIÓN DEL MUNDO

Ciudad de México

Re: (OT) Top Posting (was Re: Gimp Babl too old)

[Ben Finney]

Kenneth Parker  writes:

> I have a special issue:  Using Gmail on a Phone or Tablet (I have
> both).

Both of those devices lack a proper keyboard. That makes them unsuitable
for composing anything but very short messages, and wholly unsuitable
for editing text.

> Seriously, how do others of you deal with navigating this Debian List
> on Android, while being a "Good Netizen"?

I deal with it by never composing or editing messages without a proper
keyboard.

Handheld, full-touchscreen devices are fine as reading devices, and
maybe for very limited gross-control input, but it's a mistake to try to
use them as text editing devices until you connect a real keyboard.

-- 
 \ “I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I |
  `\ am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I |
_o__) meant.” —Robert J. McCloskey |
Ben Finney

Re: (OT) Top Posting (was Re: Gimp Babl too old)

[Anders Andersson]

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 6:17 AM, Kenneth Parker  wrote:
> Seriously, how do others of you deal with navigating this Debian List on
> Android, while being a "Good Netizen"?

Personally I don't. A phone is a horrible tool for composing texts and
is nowhere near a replacement for a computer. Using an inferior tool
is no excuse to inconvenience others. My pet peeve here is when people
try to use the Stack Exchange app or whatever, and excuse the lousy
formatting on "I'm on the phone", but thanks for pointing out another
one: gmail top posting! It's bad enough in an an actual browser on a
real computer...

I loathe the "appification" of everything these days, dumbing down
everything to the lowest lousiest common denominator for people who
can only point and click with their thumbs.

(I was about to write  but I will never stop ranting about this!)

(OT) Top Posting (was Re: Gimp Babl too old)

[Kenneth Parker]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:07 PM Ric Moore  wrote:

>
> 
>


> Same reason some people top post. They just ignore the conventions.
>

I have a special issue:  Using Gmail on a Phone or Tablet (I have both).  I
have yet to find a Straightforward way to Snip lots of lines, using the
Android App.  Also, Gmail "hides" the lines from the prior responses in the
Thread, making it  *WAY*  too easy to Top Post. (You have to touch a link
to see them).

So, since I "feel your Pain", I generally save my Debian Responses for,
when I get home with, either my Debian 9 Laptop, my Ubuntu 16.04 Laptop (to
be upgraded to Debian 9 in the next month), or the Chromebook I am typing
on now.

Seriously, how do others of you deal with navigating this Debian List on
Android, while being a "Good Netizen"?

Thank you and best regards,

Kenneth Parker, Computer Consultant

Re: RAM G.Skill défecteuse et garantie pas top

[Yann Serre]

Bonjour,

Racheter 16Go "homogènes" d'un coup et revendre les "vieux" 8Go sur un 
site d'annonces quand ils reviennent du SAV, surtout s'il y a eu échange 
et donc pas de risque de décevoir un acheteur ?


Le 03/04/2018 à 20:32, Jean-Marc a écrit :

Entre parenthèse, ça donne envie d'ajouter de la mémoire.  Avec quelle garantie 
de «compatibilité entre modules non testés ensemble» ?

Re: RAM G.Skill défecteuse et garantie pas top

[Pierre L.]

Le 03/04/2018 à 20:32, Jean-Marc a écrit :
> salut la liste,
>
> J'ai une de mes deux barres de RAM qui vient de me lâcher.
>
> Pas super top mais rien de dramatique non  plus.
>
> Sauf que pour remplacer cette RAM G.Skill, le service de garantie me demande 
> de rentrer les 2 RAM.
>
> Sous prétexte qu'il faut tester le kit de 2x8GB parce que, dixit, «chaque kit 
> est testé comme un seul ensemble pour assurer la compatibilité entre les 
> modules du kit».
Idem avec un kit de 2 barrettes Kingston, dans une même boite, je
n'avais pas rechigné car échange standard contre une autre boite de 2
identiques.
> Et promet de me les remplacer sous huitaine.
>
> Alors, si mon PC tourne sans soucis sur 8GB, avec 0 GB, il va aller moins 
> bien.
>
> Une semaine sans PC, quoi.
>
> Entre parenthèse, ça donne envie d'ajouter de la mémoire.  Avec quelle 
> garantie de «compatibilité entre modules non testés ensemble» ?
J'avais acheter le même kit environ une dizaine de mois après afin de
doubler la taille mémoire, mêmes références et tout et tout... les
vitesses internes n'étaient cependant pas les même, quelques chouïas de
différence ne permettant pas une synchro entre les 2 kits.
Synchro possible uniquement entre 2 barrettes du même kit, bref du 2x
dual channel. Donc oui attention aux différentes releases du "même produit".
> Merci le service après-vente.
>
> Certains d'entre vous ont-ils déjà eu à affronter ce genre de problème et 
> quel a été votre expérience du service après-vente ?  Style quand la moitié 
> pète, on vous demande de tout rentrer et de rester en rade avec le reste ?
>
>
> Merci pour vos retour.
>
>
> Jean-Marc <jean-m...@6jf.be>
Bon courage !



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: RAM G.Skill défecteuse et garantie pas top

[Basile Starynkevitch]

On 04/03/2018 08:32 PM, Jean-Marc wrote:

salut la liste,

J'ai une de mes deux barres de RAM qui vient de me lâcher.


Je n'ai jamais vécu ça (mais j'ai déjà eu des RAM de portables 
subrepticement defectueuses ;;; :-(


Pas super top mais rien de dramatique non  plus.

Sauf que pour remplacer cette RAM G.Skill, le service de garantie me demande de 
rentrer les 2 RAM.

Sous prétexte qu'il faut tester le kit de 2x8GB parce que, dixit, «chaque kit 
est testé comme un seul ensemble pour assurer la compatibilité entre les 
modules du kit».

Et promet de me les remplacer sous huitaine.

Alors, si mon PC tourne sans soucis sur 8GB, avec 0 GB, il va aller moins bien.

Une semaine sans PC, quoi.

Entre parenthèse, ça donne envie d'ajouter de la mémoire.  Avec quelle garantie 
de «compatibilité entre modules non testés ensemble» ?



Ce n'est pas une question spécifque Debian (elle ne dépend pas de l'OS).

Mais tu pourrais rajouter des barettes de meme type, voltage, et 
frequence que les précédentes.


Cordialement

--
Basile STARYNKEVITCH   == http://starynkevitch.net/Basile
opinions are mine only - les opinions sont seulement miennes
Bourg La Reine, France

RAM G.Skill défecteuse et garantie pas top

[Jean-Marc]

salut la liste,

J'ai une de mes deux barres de RAM qui vient de me lâcher.

Pas super top mais rien de dramatique non  plus.

Sauf que pour remplacer cette RAM G.Skill, le service de garantie me demande de 
rentrer les 2 RAM.

Sous prétexte qu'il faut tester le kit de 2x8GB parce que, dixit, «chaque kit 
est testé comme un seul ensemble pour assurer la compatibilité entre les 
modules du kit».

Et promet de me les remplacer sous huitaine.

Alors, si mon PC tourne sans soucis sur 8GB, avec 0 GB, il va aller moins bien.

Une semaine sans PC, quoi.

Entre parenthèse, ça donne envie d'ajouter de la mémoire.  Avec quelle garantie 
de «compatibilité entre modules non testés ensemble» ?

Merci le service après-vente.

Certains d'entre vous ont-ils déjà eu à affronter ce genre de problème et quel 
a été votre expérience du service après-vente ?  Style quand la moitié pète, on 
vous demande de tout rentrer et de rester en rade avec le reste ?


Merci pour vos retour.


Jean-Marc <jean-m...@6jf.be>


pgp5SXDK7zBWT.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?)

[rhkramer]

On Saturday, September 09, 2017 10:53:29 PM Nick Boyce wrote:
> AFAIK the 'Web Content' process was introduced by Mozilla when Firefox
> switched to a multi-process model for the browser binary - you may have
> seen people moaning about it: Mozilla calls it 'electrolysis/e10s' and it
> delivers such things as "only one tab will crash, rather than the whole
> browser".  

Thanks very much for this informative response--you even provided the date / 
revision number of the change!

So, I'm now reading up on electrolysis--hadn't seen / heard anything about it 
before now.  The first thing I started to read (still more tabs open to skim / 
read) indicates that the first iterations of e10s just put all the web content 
in one process, but maybe future ones (maybe even by now), maybe each tab will 
be a separate process, which is the point at which, at least usually, one 
crashed tab will not bring down the entire browser.

> I noticed the new process for the first time within the last
> month but wasn't sure how long it had been there ... I was trying to find
> out where all my RAM was going, and the sight of it made my blood run cold
> till I found out what it was.  

I guess I haven't looked at top since something like August 21, thus hadn't 
noticed the change--not looking at top in that time is a good thing, because 
it implies I had no problems that made me look at top ;-)

> I believe the ESR release channel gained
> the multiprocess feature with the change from release 45.x.y to release
> 52.x.y (Debian tracks the ESR channel), and my Wheezy systems received
> FF52.2.0 on 21st.August.
 
Thanks again!

OH, and for pointing out that "Web Content" is a process--I should have 
recognized that, but did not till I read your reply.  ;-)  (I guess, at first, 
I thought it was just some magical thing that magically separated Firefox's 
memory use into two parts, one that just reflected the content (well, it is 
that, but by virture of being a separate process).

Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?)

[Nick Boyce]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 07:39:58 -0400
rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, September 08, 2017 07:59:40 PM David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 08 Sep 2017 at 17:39:39 (-0400), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 08, 2017 05:13:31 PM David Wright wrote:
> > > > Meanwhile, I have firefox open on the results of a google search.
> > > > That's currently reading
> > > > firefox-esr 31% + Web Content 28%
> > > 
> > > Hmm, do you have a version of top (or something else) which reports the
> > > use of memory for web content?  I don't see that in top on Wheezy., but
> > > I'd like to get that number.
[snip]
> 
> Son of a gun, this morning I looked at top and now there is a task named "Web 
> Content".  That must have been part of a (recent) "security" update ;-)

AFAIK the 'Web Content' process was introduced by Mozilla when Firefox switched 
to a multi-process model for the browser binary - you may have seen people 
moaning about it: Mozilla calls it 'electrolysis/e10s' and it delivers such 
things as "only one tab will crash, rather than the whole browser".  I noticed 
the new process for the first time within the last month but wasn't sure how 
long it had been there ... I was trying to find out where all my RAM was going, 
and the sight of it made my blood run cold till I found out what it was.  I 
believe the ESR release channel gained the multiprocess feature with the change 
from release 45.x.y to release 52.x.y (Debian tracks the ESR channel), and my 
Wheezy systems received FF52.2.0 on 21st.August.

Nick
-- 
Never FDISK after midnight.

Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?)

[rhkramer]

On Friday, September 08, 2017 07:59:40 PM David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 08 Sep 2017 at 17:39:39 (-0400), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, September 08, 2017 05:13:31 PM David Wright wrote:
> > > Meanwhile, I have firefox open on the results of a google search.
> > > That's currently reading
> > > firefox-esr 31% + Web Content 28%
> > 
> > Hmm, do you have a version of top (or something else) which reports the
> > use of memory for web content?  I don't see that in top on Wheezy., but
> > I'd like to get that number.
> 
> I don't have any browsers on my wheezy systems, but is it possible
> that wheezy calls it plugin-container? That is what ps calls it in
> jessie, but I used top's value and terminology.
> 
> Another name to check out might be xul-runner which is where
> plugin-container used to live.

David,

Thanks  very much for your reply!

Son of a gun, this morning I looked at top and now there is a task named "Web 
Content".  That must have been part of a (recent) "security" update ;-)

Re: top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?)

[David Wright]

On Fri 08 Sep 2017 at 17:39:39 (-0400), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 08, 2017 05:13:31 PM David Wright wrote:
> > Meanwhile, I have firefox open on the results of a google search.
> > That's currently reading
> > firefox-esr 31% + Web Content 28%
> 
> Hmm, do you have a version of top (or something else) which reports the use 
> of 
> memory for web content?  I don't see that in top on Wheezy., but I'd like to 
> get that number.

I don't have any browsers on my wheezy systems, but is it possible
that wheezy calls it plugin-container? That is what ps calls it in
jessie, but I used top's value and terminology.

Another name to check out might be xul-runner which is where
plugin-container used to live.

Cheers,
David.

top that shows "Web Content" (was Re: Recommended editor for novice programmers?)

[rhkramer]

On Friday, September 08, 2017 05:13:31 PM David Wright wrote:
> Meanwhile, I have firefox open on the results of a google search.
> That's currently reading
> firefox-esr 31% + Web Content 28%

Hmm, do you have a version of top (or something else) which reports the use of 
memory for web content?  I don't see that in top on Wheezy., but I'd like to 
get that number.

Re: Segmentation fault in top -b1 -hc

[Curt]

On 2017-05-09, Bob McGowan <ramjr0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
> I just tried the OP's command line and got the following error:
>
> $ top -b1 -hc
>   procps-ng 3.3.12
> Usage:
>   top -hv | -bcHiOSs -d secs -n max -u|U user -p pid(s) -o field -w [cols]
>
> I can say with assurance that I have not manually installed anything
> related to procps or top.
>
> And the policy for procps says:
>
> $ apt-cache policy procps  
> procps:
>   Installed: 2:3.3.12-3
>   Candidate: 2:3.3.12-3
>   Version table:
>
> Those version numbers match the numeric part of the 'top' output.
>
> Could it be that Debian has just dropped the '-ng' from the name?
>

I'm reading that in 2011 Debian, Fedora and openSUSE forked procps (which became
'procps-ng'-- next generation). I guess the package has gone back to being
called procps (or something)?

https://gitlab.com/procps-ng/procps/wikis/faq



-- 
"It might be a vision--of a shell, of a wheelbarrow, of a fairy kingdom on the
far side of the hedge; or it might be the glory of speed; no one knew." --Mrs.
Ramsay, speculating on why her little daughter might be dashing about, in "To
the Lighthouse," by Virginia Woolf.

Re: Segmentation fault in top -b1 -hc

[Bob McGowan]

On 05/08/2017 03:28 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 11:46:13AM +0200, Peter Ludikovsky wrote:
> > On 05/08/2017 11:19 AM, Valentin Bajrami wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> There is a segmentation fault when top is used as follow
> >>
> >> top -b1 -hc
> >>
> >> I think the args are not parsed properly.  The version used is:
> >> procps-ng version 3.3.10
> >>
> >> --
> >> Met vriendelijke groet,
> >>
> >> Valentin Bajrami
>
> > There's no package procps-ng [0].
>
> Indeed. There seems to be one props-ng floating around, but it doesn't
> come from Debian's official repos.
>
> To find out where that package comes from, try
>
>   apt-cache policy procps-ng-3.3.10
>
> (or however that package is really called, you can find that out
> with "aptitude search procps-ng" or something similar).
>
> HTH
> -- tomás
>
I just tried the OP's command line and got the following error:

$ top -b1 -hc
  procps-ng 3.3.12
Usage:
  top -hv | -bcHiOSs -d secs -n max -u|U user -p pid(s) -o field -w [cols]

I can say with assurance that I have not manually installed anything
related to procps or top.

And the policy for procps says:

$ apt-cache policy procps  
procps:
  Installed: 2:3.3.12-3
  Candidate: 2:3.3.12-3
  Version table:

Those version numbers match the numeric part of the 'top' output.

Could it be that Debian has just dropped the '-ng' from the name?

Bob

Re: Segmentation fault in top -b1 -hc

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 11:46:13AM +0200, Peter Ludikovsky wrote:
> On 05/08/2017 11:19 AM, Valentin Bajrami wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > There is a segmentation fault when top is used as follow
> > 
> > top -b1 -hc
> > 
> > I think the args are not parsed properly.  The version used is:
> > procps-ng version 3.3.10
> > 
> > -- 
> > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > 
> > Valentin Bajrami
> 
> There's no package procps-ng [0].

Indeed. There seems to be one props-ng floating around, but it doesn't
come from Debian's official repos.

To find out where that package comes from, try

  apt-cache policy procps-ng-3.3.10

(or however that package is really called, you can find that out
with "aptitude search procps-ng" or something similar).

HTH
- -- tomás
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FRoAnArOJblkZjkgdcqayi4spPSu6uMq
=V0kt
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Re: Segmentation fault in top -b1 -hc

[Peter Ludikovsky]

On 05/08/2017 11:19 AM, Valentin Bajrami wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> There is a segmentation fault when top is used as follow
> 
> top -b1 -hc
> 
> I think the args are not parsed properly.  The version used is:
> procps-ng version 3.3.10
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet,
> 
> Valentin Bajrami

There's no package procps-ng [0].

procps is version 3.3.9 in Stable, and 3.3.12 in Testing/Unstable [1].
Update to the current version, and if the problem persists please report
the issue via the reportbug [2][3] utility.

Regards
/peter

[0] https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=procps-ng
[1] https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=procps
[2] https://wiki.debian.org/reportbug
[3] https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Segmentation fault in top -b1 -hc

[Valentin Bajrami]

Hi,

There is a segmentation fault when top is used as follow

top -b1 -hc

I think the args are not parsed properly.  The version used is: procps-ng
version 3.3.10

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet,

Valentin Bajrami

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/11/2017 08:21 AM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2017-02-11, Curt  wrote:

On 2017-02-11, Richard Owlett  wrote:


[...]


I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places,
and System as submenus. I wish to return to the original
configuration. How?


Reinstall for the umpteenth time.



Overkill.

I would try mozo, the menu editor for MATE.



Didn't address my problem (since resolved, see reply to songbird).
However, it gives me a inkling of an attack for an unrelated issue.
Thank you.

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/11/2017 09:47 AM, Curt wrote:

On 2017-02-11, Liam O'Toole  wrote:

On 2017-02-11, Curt  wrote:

On 2017-02-11, Richard Owlett  wrote:


[...]


I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places,
and System as submenus. I wish to return to the original
configuration. How?


Reinstall for the umpteenth time.



Overkill.


I was just pulling his leg.


*ROFL*
Just because I've had occasion to do 5 or 6 full installs from same DVD's on a 
single day ... ;)


Seriously though, I think I've learned things that I would have never even 
investigated but for experimenting.


P.S. My leg gets pulled so much on and off line that it has acquired an 
auto-retract function.





I would try mozo, the menu editor for MATE.

Re: RESOLVED - was [Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel]

[songbird]

Richard Owlett wrote:
> songbird wrote:
...
>>
>>   click on the panel
>>
>>   then add to panel.
>>
>>   both the main menu and the menu bar are
>> there in the list.
>
> Yes, but with a "gotcha" ;)
> The description of "Main Menu" is "The main MATE menu".
> The description of "Menu Bar" is "A custom menu bar".
> The first's description is fine, the second's is misleading.

  yeah, i noticed that too, but tried it anyways.
i guess i'm used to some fuzzyness when it comes
to these things.  :)

  because the one is included in the other i remove
the one that takes up all that room in the panel so
i have space for other ones i use more frequently.


> I just completed another web search finding
> http://www.subdude-site.com/WebPages_Local/RefInfo/Computer/Linux/MATEinfo/recoveringTheTopPanel_ofTheMATEdesktop_forLinuxMintMATEusers.htm
>  
> .
> The lack of clarity is illustrated in an image at top right of page.
>
> Thank you.

  y.w.


  songbird

RESOLVED - was [Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel]

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/11/2017 08:10 AM, songbird wrote:

Richard Owlett wrote:

After a default installation of Mate under Jessie there had been one icon and
three text labels on the left end of the top panel.
The icon was the same icon associated with "Main Menu" in "Add to Panel".
The three text labels were Applications, Places, and System.

I had a flaky mouse that generated random click events while moving. SOMETHING
was accidentally triggered.

I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places, and System as
submenus. I wish to return to the original configuration. How?

The "Help" system is very un-helpful. All I could find was a description of the
original configuration with nothing about restoring it if changed.


  click on the panel

  then add to panel.

  both the main menu and the menu bar are
there in the list.



Yes, but with a "gotcha" ;)
The description of "Main Menu" is "The main MATE menu".
The description of "Menu Bar" is "A custom menu bar".
The first's description is fine, the second's is misleading.

I just completed another web search finding
http://www.subdude-site.com/WebPages_Local/RefInfo/Computer/Linux/MATEinfo/recoveringTheTopPanel_ofTheMATEdesktop_forLinuxMintMATEusers.htm 
.

The lack of clarity is illustrated in an image at top right of page.

Thank you.

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Curt]

On 2017-02-11, Liam O'Toole  wrote:
> On 2017-02-11, Curt  wrote:
>> On 2017-02-11, Richard Owlett  wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places,
>>> and System as submenus. I wish to return to the original
>>> configuration. How?
>>
>> Reinstall for the umpteenth time.
>>
>
> Overkill.

I was just pulling his leg.

> I would try mozo, the menu editor for MATE.
>


-- 
“It is enough that the arrows fit exactly in the wounds that they have made.”
Franz Kafka

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Richard Owlett]

On 02/11/2017 07:44 AM, Curt wrote:

On 2017-02-11, Richard Owlett <rowl...@cloud85.net> wrote:

After a default installation of Mate under Jessie there had been one icon and
three text labels on the left end of the top panel.
The icon was the same icon associated with "Main Menu" in "Add to Panel".
The three text labels were Applications, Places, and System.

I had a flaky mouse that generated random click events while moving. SOMETHING
was accidentally triggered.


Fix or replace.


Quoting myself "I had a flaky mouse..."
  ^^^  ;/




I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places, and System as
submenus. I wish to return to the original configuration. How?


Reinstall for the umpteenth time.


Scorched earth is not always appropriate.
Each of my previous installs had a specific purpose - understanding a particular 
feature.


A reinstall would have no upside and two downsides:
  1. Failure to learn more of Mate's panels.
  2. Effort to recreate preferred configuration.

Side note: This is not the hardware previously used for my previous experimental 
installs. Its CPU failed after fan seized. This machine is my machine for 
routine use.


Thanks.






The "Help" system is very un-helpful. All I could find was a description of the
original configuration with nothing about restoring it if changed.

TIA

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2017-02-11, Curt  wrote:
> On 2017-02-11, Richard Owlett  wrote:

[...]

>> I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places,
>> and System as submenus. I wish to return to the original
>> configuration. How?
>
> Reinstall for the umpteenth time.
>

Overkill.

I would try mozo, the menu editor for MATE.

-- 

Liam

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[songbird]

Richard Owlett wrote:
> After a default installation of Mate under Jessie there had been one icon and 
> three text labels on the left end of the top panel.
> The icon was the same icon associated with "Main Menu" in "Add to Panel".
> The three text labels were Applications, Places, and System.
>
> I had a flaky mouse that generated random click events while moving. 
> SOMETHING 
> was accidentally triggered.
>
> I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places, and System 
> as 
> submenus. I wish to return to the original configuration. How?
>
> The "Help" system is very un-helpful. All I could find was a description of 
> the 
> original configuration with nothing about restoring it if changed.

  click on the panel 

  then add to panel.

  both the main menu and the menu bar are
there in the list.


  songbird

Re: Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Curt]

On 2017-02-11, Richard Owlett <rowl...@cloud85.net> wrote:
> After a default installation of Mate under Jessie there had been one icon and 
> three text labels on the left end of the top panel.
> The icon was the same icon associated with "Main Menu" in "Add to Panel".
> The three text labels were Applications, Places, and System.
>
> I had a flaky mouse that generated random click events while moving. 
> SOMETHING 
> was accidentally triggered.

Fix or replace.

> I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places, and System 
> as 
> submenus. I wish to return to the original configuration. How?

Reinstall for the umpteenth time.

> The "Help" system is very un-helpful. All I could find was a description of 
> the 
> original configuration with nothing about restoring it if changed.
>
> TIA
>
>


-- 
“It is enough that the arrows fit exactly in the wounds that they have made.”
Franz Kafka

Problem with Mate's Top Panel

[Richard Owlett]

After a default installation of Mate under Jessie there had been one icon and 
three text labels on the left end of the top panel.

The icon was the same icon associated with "Main Menu" in "Add to Panel".
The three text labels were Applications, Places, and System.

I had a flaky mouse that generated random click events while moving. SOMETHING 
was accidentally triggered.


I now have only the "Main Menu" icon. It has Applications, Places, and System as 
submenus. I wish to return to the original configuration. How?


The "Help" system is very un-helpful. All I could find was a description of the 
original configuration with nothing about restoring it if changed.


TIA

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[tomas]

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On Mon, Jan 02, 2017 at 08:32:33AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Sun 01 Jan 2017 at 13:15:11 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 05:14:50PM -0600, David Wright wrote:

Yeah, sorry. I was set off by this...

> > > Auto-selecting FAT32 for large filesystem

...and overlooked this:

> > > # mkfs.fat -F 16 -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
> 
> This was intended to create a FAT16 filesystem...

you are right.

[...]

> > This is very interesting! Seems FAT32 has a limit of 1024 entries
> > in a top-level dir. OK, if all else fails, read the instructions :)
> 
> ... so I think you mean FAT16 here.

indeed.

[...]

> So no mystery, perhaps.

Again, indeed. Seems the default in this case was set at 1024 entries
for the root dir.

Thanks
- -- tomás
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Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[rhkramer]

This appears to be a never ending thread. ;-)

I started it, an, for the record, I'm good (I've got a satisfactory answer--it 
seems I can put photos in subdirectories and the photo frame will work its way 
through the subdirectories).  

But, if you (all) are having fun, carry on ;-)


On Monday, January 02, 2017 10:29:16 AM Nicolas George wrote:
> Le tridi 13 nivôse, an CCXXV, Jude DaShiell a écrit :
> > msdos 6.22 which was fat16 had a limit of 112 files in top level
> > directory. Once I tried putting more than that on a floppy disk and
> > couldn't figure why no more would fit until I found this out.  I don't
> > know if the limit got expanded for fat32 and msdos 7
> 
> Will nobody read the darn thread before posting half-wrong statements?
> And possibly check their own facts against reliable sources?
> 
> The limit does not come from the OS, it is coded in the "superblock" of
> the filesystem. It can be configured when creating the filesystem. The
> default is indeed sometimes 112.
> 
> Also, MS-DOS 6.22 "is" not FAT16, that does not mean anything. FAT12,
> FAT16 and FAT32 are three variants of the filesystems with different
> compromises between wasted storage per file and wasted storage globally.
> The tool that creates the filesystem will normally choose the best one
> for a typical use by default. And of course, MS-DOS < 7 did not support
> FAT32.
> 
> Regards,

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Nicolas George]

Le tridi 13 nivôse, an CCXXV, Jude DaShiell a écrit :
> msdos 6.22 which was fat16 had a limit of 112 files in top level directory.
> Once I tried putting more than that on a floppy disk and couldn't figure why
> no more would fit until I found this out.  I don't know if the limit got
> expanded for fat32 and msdos 7

Will nobody read the darn thread before posting half-wrong statements?
And possibly check their own facts against reliable sources?

The limit does not come from the OS, it is coded in the "superblock" of
the filesystem. It can be configured when creating the filesystem. The
default is indeed sometimes 112.

Also, MS-DOS 6.22 "is" not FAT16, that does not mean anything. FAT12,
FAT16 and FAT32 are three variants of the filesystems with different
compromises between wasted storage per file and wasted storage globally.
The tool that creates the filesystem will normally choose the best one
for a typical use by default. And of course, MS-DOS < 7 did not support
FAT32.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: Digital signature

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Jude DaShiell]

msdos 6.22 which was fat16 had a limit of 112 files in top level 
directory.  Once I tried putting more than that on a floppy disk and 
couldn't figure why no more would fit until I found this out.  I don't 
know if the limit got expanded for fat32 and msdos 7 but since Microsoft 
has been devoted to tearing stuff out of dos since msdos 6.22 I suspect 
that limit was not expanded.  In those days usb did not even exist so 
this information comes from pre-usb technology for me.  Hope this helps.


On Mon, 2 Jan 2017, David Wright wrote:


Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 09:32:33
From: David Wright <deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Reply-To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level
Resent-Date: Mon,  2 Jan 2017 14:37:55 + (UTC)
Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org

On Sun 01 Jan 2017 at 13:15:11 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 05:14:50PM -0600, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 31 Dec 2016 at 10:35:02 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


[...]


Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:


Mpfh. Seems I was a bit boisterous here :)

[...]


Try this at home. Enjoy.


I did, but I had some difficulty replicating your result. I took a USB
stick and put a type c partition on it (mkfs.fat doesn't like writing
whole devices). Then:


Thanks for trying to replicate. Didn't know about the device thing. Will
try when I've an USB stick which isn't my main backup :)


#  mkfs.fat -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
Auto-selecting FAT32 for large filesystem


OK, seems FAT32 has bigger limits (and it's actually selected when
the medium is big enough).


/dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
hidden sectors 0x0800;
logical sector size is 512,
using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
drive number 0x80;
filesystem has 2 32-bit FATs and 8 sectors per cluster.
FAT size is 3793 sectors, and provides 485447 clusters.
There are 32 reserved sectors.
Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
#

I now ran your one-liner and created over 20,000 empty files
at top level. So I down-sized with:

# mkfs.fat -F 16 -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1


This was intended to create a FAT16 filesystem...


mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
/dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
hidden sectors 0x0800;
logical sector size is 512,
using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
drive number 0x80;
filesystem has 2 16-bit FATs and 64 sectors per cluster.
FAT size is 256 sectors, and provides 60789 clusters.
There is 1 reserved sector.
Root directory contains 2048 slots and uses 128 sectors.
Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
#

and now at last I could exhaust the top level directory with
1023 entries. As expected, df -h gives
/dev/sdb1   1.9G 0  1.9G   0% /media/petroleum2g


This is very interesting! Seems FAT32 has a limit of 1024 entries
in a top-level dir. OK, if all else fails, read the instructions :)


... so I think you mean FAT16 here.


Wikipedia [1] has a very informative page: according to that, on
FAT12 and FAT16, the root directory is statically allocated, and
its maximum size is written somewhere in the file system header.
There are two bytes available for that (and the number encoded
there is "number of entries"), so that in theory there could be
up to 65K. Lo and behold, mkfs.vfat *has* a command line parameter
(-r) to set the number of root directory entries! Of course, I'd
expect any overall limit on entries per directory to apply here,
if there is any (couldn't find that out in that short time).

This all doesn't apply to FAT32 (as you had), where the root
directory is an ordinary directory. Why you got this 1024 limit
is thus still a mystery for me.


So no mystery, perhaps.


Like Nicolas I couldn't unpick Gene's rant about the subject as he
doesn't seem to distinguish between DOS, the OS, and FAT, the
filesystem used by DOS. But I wouldn't expect anyone using DOS
seriously to need to have many files in top level directories.
If the OP is lucky, the photo frame might create a subdirectory
like most cameras/phones etc do, or, like some MP3 players, just
display everything it encounters regardless of the subdirectory
involved.


Yeah, exactly. The only reason for FAT to exist these days is
compatibility, and then it makes sense to be especially conservative
(e.g. there's no limit to directory nesting depth, but most
implementations die on a path which is too long).

Anyway, thanks for digging further!

regards

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_the_FAT_file_system


Cheers,
David.




--

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[David Wright]

On Sun 01 Jan 2017 at 13:15:11 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 05:14:50PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sat 31 Dec 2016 at 10:35:02 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:
> 
> Mpfh. Seems I was a bit boisterous here :)
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > Try this at home. Enjoy.
> > 
> > I did, but I had some difficulty replicating your result. I took a USB
> > stick and put a type c partition on it (mkfs.fat doesn't like writing
> > whole devices). Then:
> 
> Thanks for trying to replicate. Didn't know about the device thing. Will
> try when I've an USB stick which isn't my main backup :)
> 
> > #  mkfs.fat -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
> > mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
> > Auto-selecting FAT32 for large filesystem
> 
> OK, seems FAT32 has bigger limits (and it's actually selected when
> the medium is big enough).
> 
> > /dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
> > hidden sectors 0x0800;
> > logical sector size is 512,
> > using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
> > drive number 0x80;
> > filesystem has 2 32-bit FATs and 8 sectors per cluster.
> > FAT size is 3793 sectors, and provides 485447 clusters.
> > There are 32 reserved sectors.
> > Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
> > # 
> > 
> > I now ran your one-liner and created over 20,000 empty files
> > at top level. So I down-sized with:
> > 
> > # mkfs.fat -F 16 -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1

This was intended to create a FAT16 filesystem...

> > mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
> > /dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
> > hidden sectors 0x0800;
> > logical sector size is 512,
> > using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
> > drive number 0x80;
> > filesystem has 2 16-bit FATs and 64 sectors per cluster.
> > FAT size is 256 sectors, and provides 60789 clusters.
> > There is 1 reserved sector.
> > Root directory contains 2048 slots and uses 128 sectors.
> > Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
> > # 
> > 
> > and now at last I could exhaust the top level directory with
> > 1023 entries. As expected, df -h gives
> > /dev/sdb1   1.9G 0  1.9G   0% /media/petroleum2g
> 
> This is very interesting! Seems FAT32 has a limit of 1024 entries
> in a top-level dir. OK, if all else fails, read the instructions :)

... so I think you mean FAT16 here.

> Wikipedia [1] has a very informative page: according to that, on
> FAT12 and FAT16, the root directory is statically allocated, and
> its maximum size is written somewhere in the file system header.
> There are two bytes available for that (and the number encoded
> there is "number of entries"), so that in theory there could be
> up to 65K. Lo and behold, mkfs.vfat *has* a command line parameter
> (-r) to set the number of root directory entries! Of course, I'd
> expect any overall limit on entries per directory to apply here,
> if there is any (couldn't find that out in that short time).
> 
> This all doesn't apply to FAT32 (as you had), where the root
> directory is an ordinary directory. Why you got this 1024 limit
> is thus still a mystery for me.

So no mystery, perhaps.

> > Like Nicolas I couldn't unpick Gene's rant about the subject as he
> > doesn't seem to distinguish between DOS, the OS, and FAT, the
> > filesystem used by DOS. But I wouldn't expect anyone using DOS
> > seriously to need to have many files in top level directories.
> > If the OP is lucky, the photo frame might create a subdirectory
> > like most cameras/phones etc do, or, like some MP3 players, just
> > display everything it encounters regardless of the subdirectory
> > involved.
> 
> Yeah, exactly. The only reason for FAT to exist these days is
> compatibility, and then it makes sense to be especially conservative
> (e.g. there's no limit to directory nesting depth, but most
> implementations die on a path which is too long).
> 
> Anyway, thanks for digging further!
> 
> regards
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_the_FAT_file_system

Cheers,
David.

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 05:14:50PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Sat 31 Dec 2016 at 10:35:02 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:

Mpfh. Seems I was a bit boisterous here :)

[...]

> > Try this at home. Enjoy.
> 
> I did, but I had some difficulty replicating your result. I took a USB
> stick and put a type c partition on it (mkfs.fat doesn't like writing
> whole devices). Then:

Thanks for trying to replicate. Didn't know about the device thing. Will
try when I've an USB stick which isn't my main backup :)

> #  mkfs.fat -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
> mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
> Auto-selecting FAT32 for large filesystem

OK, seems FAT32 has bigger limits (and it's actually selected when
the medium is big enough).

> /dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
> hidden sectors 0x0800;
> logical sector size is 512,
> using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
> drive number 0x80;
> filesystem has 2 32-bit FATs and 8 sectors per cluster.
> FAT size is 3793 sectors, and provides 485447 clusters.
> There are 32 reserved sectors.
> Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
> # 
> 
> I now ran your one-liner and created over 20,000 empty files
> at top level. So I down-sized with:
> 
> # mkfs.fat -F 16 -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
> mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
> /dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
> hidden sectors 0x0800;
> logical sector size is 512,
> using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
> drive number 0x80;
> filesystem has 2 16-bit FATs and 64 sectors per cluster.
> FAT size is 256 sectors, and provides 60789 clusters.
> There is 1 reserved sector.
> Root directory contains 2048 slots and uses 128 sectors.
> Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
> # 
> 
> and now at last I could exhaust the top level directory with
> 1023 entries. As expected, df -h gives
> /dev/sdb1   1.9G 0  1.9G   0% /media/petroleum2g

This is very interesting! Seems FAT32 has a limit of 1024 entries
in a top-level dir. OK, if all else fails, read the instructions :)

Wikipedia [1] has a very informative page: according to that, on
FAT12 and FAT16, the root directory is statically allocated, and
its maximum size is written somewhere in the file system header.
There are two bytes available for that (and the number encoded
there is "number of entries"), so that in theory there could be
up to 65K. Lo and behold, mkfs.vfat *has* a command line parameter
(-r) to set the number of root directory entries! Of course, I'd
expect any overall limit on entries per directory to apply here,
if there is any (couldn't find that out in that short time).

This all doesn't apply to FAT32 (as you had), where the root
directory is an ordinary directory. Why you got this 1024 limit
is thus still a mystery for me.

> Like Nicolas I couldn't unpick Gene's rant about the subject as he
> doesn't seem to distinguish between DOS, the OS, and FAT, the
> filesystem used by DOS. But I wouldn't expect anyone using DOS
> seriously to need to have many files in top level directories.
> If the OP is lucky, the photo frame might create a subdirectory
> like most cameras/phones etc do, or, like some MP3 players, just
> display everything it encounters regardless of the subdirectory
> involved.

Yeah, exactly. The only reason for FAT to exist these days is
compatibility, and then it makes sense to be especially conservative
(e.g. there's no limit to directory nesting depth, but most
implementations die on a path which is too long).

Anyway, thanks for digging further!

regards

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_the_FAT_file_system

- -- tomás
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Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Xen]

to...@tuxteam.de schreef op 31-12-2016 10:35:

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 07:38:18AM +0100, Xen wrote:

do...@mail.com schreef op 26-12-2016 3:41:

>I encountered this many times on windowz FAT32 in a non-root dir, but
>never on Linux. I suspect that it was/is one of their "Features". The
>said "Feature" still was there when using ntfs in XP if I remember
>correctly.

Perhaps it's just because Windows Explorer doesn't deal well with
many files. Try to unpack some open source archive of some
distributor that had to make their sources open, some 1G archive,
and see how it goes. Not recommended :p.

Then when you've unpacked it, deleting it takes a few years as well.
So imposing a filesystem limit may just have been a way to ensure
that their user interface limit is not quickly reached, I don't
know.


Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:

  dd if=/dev/zero of=dose bs=4096 count=64
  mkfs.vfat dose
  sudo mkfs.vfat dose
  sudo mount dose /mnt
  for i in $(seq 1 1) ; do sudo touch /mnt/f.$(printf "%05d" $i)
|| echo "fail $i" ; done

The loop starts failing at i == 257 with "no space left on device"
(that's ENOSPC if I remember correctly). The "device" has still
reams of space left:

  tomas@rasputin:~$ df -h
  Filesystem Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
  [...]
  /dev/loop0 238K     0  238K   0% /mnt

So 256 must be a limit on number of entries on the top level dir of
FATty file systems (or an implementation limit of Linux's version
of that, but guess whom I trust more to bust that badly).

Try this at home. Enjoy.


That person spoke about a non-root dir which is what I responded to.

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[David Wright]

On Sat 31 Dec 2016 at 10:35:02 (+0100), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 07:38:18AM +0100, Xen wrote:
> > do...@mail.com schreef op 26-12-2016 3:41:
> > 
> > >I encountered this many times on windowz FAT32 in a non-root dir, but
> > >never on Linux. I suspect that it was/is one of their "Features". The
> > >said "Feature" still was there when using ntfs in XP if I remember
> > >correctly.
> > 
> > Perhaps it's just because Windows Explorer doesn't deal well with
> > many files. Try to unpack some open source archive of some
> > distributor that had to make their sources open, some 1G archive,
> > and see how it goes. Not recommended :p.
> > 
> > Then when you've unpacked it, deleting it takes a few years as well.
> > So imposing a filesystem limit may just have been a way to ensure
> > that their user interface limit is not quickly reached, I don't
> > know.
> 
> Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:
> 
>   dd if=/dev/zero of=dose bs=4096 count=64
>   mkfs.vfat dose
>   sudo mkfs.vfat dose
>   sudo mount dose /mnt
>   for i in $(seq 1 1) ; do sudo touch /mnt/f.$(printf "%05d" $i) || echo 
> "fail $i" ; done
> 
> The loop starts failing at i == 257 with "no space left on device"
> (that's ENOSPC if I remember correctly). The "device" has still
> reams of space left:
> 
>   tomas@rasputin:~$ df -h
>   Filesystem Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>   [...]
>   /dev/loop0 238K 0  238K   0% /mnt
> 
> So 256 must be a limit on number of entries on the top level dir of
> FATty file systems (or an implementation limit of Linux's version
> of that, but guess whom I trust more to bust that badly).
> 
> Try this at home. Enjoy.

I did, but I had some difficulty replicating your result. I took a USB
stick and put a type c partition on it (mkfs.fat doesn't like writing
whole devices). Then:

#  mkfs.fat -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
Auto-selecting FAT32 for large filesystem
/dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
hidden sectors 0x0800;
logical sector size is 512,
using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
drive number 0x80;
filesystem has 2 32-bit FATs and 8 sectors per cluster.
FAT size is 3793 sectors, and provides 485447 clusters.
There are 32 reserved sectors.
Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
# 

I now ran your one-liner and created over 20,000 empty files
at top level. So I down-sized with:

# mkfs.fat -F 16 -i 20161231 -n PETROLEUM2G -r 2000 -v /dev/sdb1
mkfs.fat 3.0.27 (2014-11-12)
/dev/sdb1 has 62 heads and 62 sectors per track,
hidden sectors 0x0800;
logical sector size is 512,
using 0xf8 media descriptor, with 3891199 sectors;
drive number 0x80;
filesystem has 2 16-bit FATs and 64 sectors per cluster.
FAT size is 256 sectors, and provides 60789 clusters.
There is 1 reserved sector.
Root directory contains 2048 slots and uses 128 sectors.
Volume ID is 20161231, volume label PETROLEUM2G.
# 

and now at last I could exhaust the top level directory with
1023 entries. As expected, df -h gives
/dev/sdb1   1.9G 0  1.9G   0% /media/petroleum2g

Like Nicolas I couldn't unpick Gene's rant about the subject as he
doesn't seem to distinguish between DOS, the OS, and FAT, the
filesystem used by DOS. But I wouldn't expect anyone using DOS
seriously to need to have many files in top level directories.
If the OP is lucky, the photo frame might create a subdirectory
like most cameras/phones etc do, or, like some MP3 players, just
display everything it encounters regardless of the subdirectory
involved.

Cheers,
David.

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 09:16:10 Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 12/31/2016 7:49 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 31 December 2016 08:01:15 Nicolas George wrote:
> >> Le primidi 11 nivôse, an CCXXV, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> >>>  From personal experience decades ago, on a dos3.2 system, this is
> >>> correct. But I can't testify about the newer, or the now several
> >>> non-M$ versions of dos. I saw an announcement of yet another dos
> >>> release just a couple weeks back. I assume its getting better
> >>
> >> Think a little more about it: it is a limitation of the format, not
> >> the operating system. If an operating system extends the format, it
> >> is no longer compatible with the rest of the world, and then there
> >> is no reason to use FAT at all.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >
> > Perhaps Nicolas, but ATM I am having it shoved down my throat
> > because I am playing with using a raspberrypi 3b to run a 1500 lb
> > metal lathe, and for some reason the boot partition is dos, but
> > mounted as /boot to armhf version of the debian jessie currently
> > installed. Seems to me the r-pi bios needs fixed to boot from an
> > ext4 file system.  But I'm not in charge of such, can't even blow
> > the whistle. I'm still kicking the tires on the whole idea. Using
> > the SPI bus at 32 megabaud to talk to the peripheral driver that
> > runs the machine, I am finding that the noise radiated by the motor
> > supplies, which are switchmode, running at 17-19 kilohertz, have
> > enough radiated noise to wreck a 32 megabuad communications bus 7
> > inches long.
>
> Are you sure the problem is radiated noise.
> Could it be a ground loop?
> Prompted by vague recollections from decades past student days. YMMV
>
Some of both I think, I can clip the ground lead of the probe onto the 
single point ground and find nearly 5 volts p-p, with sub 5ns rise and 
fall times 3" away on a 60 volt psu cover whose ground braid comes back 
to that bolt from the ground symbol on the psu terminal strip.  Corcom 
has a line filter they claim will reduce it at 30 mhz, by 50+ db. But it 
needs to be at the line terminals, meaning one per supply and theres 3.  
And the 30 mhz rating would be the most important since the spi bus is 
running at 32 megabaud. Nominally $15 each. I built a box with two of 
them from old computer psu's in it, but with output leads feet long, I 
can see thats a waste of time. I can't believe a switchmode supply, 
running at 17 kilohertz is making that much noise at 100+ megahertz. But 
it is. If I buy some of the corcom filters, I can do some judicious 
drilling and tapping and mount them right on the psu's with maybe 3/4" 
connecting leads. Solder to the spade lugs and drop a chunk of heat 
shrink over the input lugs.  If I can attenuate the noise to around 1.25 
v p-p, the bus seems bulletproof, but above 1.5 volts and its a coin 
flip.

The FCC has rules about this, but all this crap is Chinese made now, and 
no one AFAIK is checking what comes off the boat.

> > So I am cabbaging filter parts from
> > old computer psu's to see if I can quiet these power supplies down
> > to a dull roar.  A film at 11 situation I fear.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Nicolas George]

Le primidi 11 nivôse, an CCXXV, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> > Think a little more about it: it is a limitation of the format, not
> > the operating system. If an operating system extends the format, it is
> > no longer compatible with the rest of the world, and then there is no
> > reason to use FAT at all.
> 
> Perhaps Nicolas, but ATM I am having it shoved down my throat because I 
> am playing with using a raspberrypi 3b to run a 1500 lb metal lathe


I was not talking about your own personal project, I was talking about a
flaw in the reasoning you used to expect features from an operating in
general.

The fact is: The limit comes from the format, an newer operating system
can not improve it.

Additional note: You could have deduced that by yourself and spared
everybody's time.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:01:15PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> Le primidi 11 nivôse, an CCXXV, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> > From personal experience decades ago, on a dos3.2 system, this is 
> > correct. But I can't testify about the newer, or the now several non-M$ 
> > versions of dos. I saw an announcement of yet another dos release just a 
> > couple weeks back. I assume its getting better
> 
> Think a little more about it: it is a limitation of the format, not the
> operating system. If an operating system extends the format, it is no
> longer compatible with the rest of the world, and then there is no
> reason to use FAT at all.

Yes, my hunch was also that it is a limit of the on-disk format (which
is, as you say, set in stone), although I expressed it in a pretty
round-about way, it seems :)

thanks
- -- t
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Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Richard Owlett]

On 12/31/2016 7:49 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Saturday 31 December 2016 08:01:15 Nicolas George wrote:


Le primidi 11 nivôse, an CCXXV, Gene Heskett a écrit :

 From personal experience decades ago, on a dos3.2 system, this is
correct. But I can't testify about the newer, or the now several
non-M$ versions of dos. I saw an announcement of yet another dos
release just a couple weeks back. I assume its getting better


Think a little more about it: it is a limitation of the format, not
the operating system. If an operating system extends the format, it is
no longer compatible with the rest of the world, and then there is no
reason to use FAT at all.

Regards,


Perhaps Nicolas, but ATM I am having it shoved down my throat because I
am playing with using a raspberrypi 3b to run a 1500 lb metal lathe, and
for some reason the boot partition is dos, but mounted as /boot to armhf
version of the debian jessie currently installed. Seems to me the r-pi
bios needs fixed to boot from an ext4 file system.  But I'm not in
charge of such, can't even blow the whistle. I'm still kicking the tires
on the whole idea. Using the SPI bus at 32 megabaud to talk to the
peripheral driver that runs the machine, I am finding that the noise
radiated by the motor supplies, which are switchmode, running at 17-19
kilohertz, have enough radiated noise to wreck a 32 megabuad
communications bus 7 inches long.


Are you sure the problem is radiated noise.
Could it be a ground loop?
Prompted by vague recollections from decades past student days. YMMV



So I am cabbaging filter parts from
old computer psu's to see if I can quiet these power supplies down to a
dull roar.  A film at 11 situation I fear.

Cheers, Gene Heskett

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 08:01:15 Nicolas George wrote:

> Le primidi 11 nivôse, an CCXXV, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> > From personal experience decades ago, on a dos3.2 system, this is
> > correct. But I can't testify about the newer, or the now several
> > non-M$ versions of dos. I saw an announcement of yet another dos
> > release just a couple weeks back. I assume its getting better
>
> Think a little more about it: it is a limitation of the format, not
> the operating system. If an operating system extends the format, it is
> no longer compatible with the rest of the world, and then there is no
> reason to use FAT at all.
>
> Regards,

Perhaps Nicolas, but ATM I am having it shoved down my throat because I 
am playing with using a raspberrypi 3b to run a 1500 lb metal lathe, and 
for some reason the boot partition is dos, but mounted as /boot to armhf 
version of the debian jessie currently installed. Seems to me the r-pi 
bios needs fixed to boot from an ext4 file system.  But I'm not in 
charge of such, can't even blow the whistle. I'm still kicking the tires 
on the whole idea. Using the SPI bus at 32 megabaud to talk to the 
peripheral driver that runs the machine, I am finding that the noise 
radiated by the motor supplies, which are switchmode, running at 17-19 
kilohertz, have enough radiated noise to wreck a 32 megabuad 
communications bus 7 inches long.  So I am cabbaging filter parts from 
old computer psu's to see if I can quiet these power supplies down to a 
dull roar.  A film at 11 situation I fear.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Nicolas George]

Le primidi 11 nivôse, an CCXXV, Gene Heskett a écrit :
> From personal experience decades ago, on a dos3.2 system, this is 
> correct. But I can't testify about the newer, or the now several non-M$ 
> versions of dos. I saw an announcement of yet another dos release just a 
> couple weeks back. I assume its getting better

Think a little more about it: it is a limitation of the format, not the
operating system. If an operating system extends the format, it is no
longer compatible with the rest of the world, and then there is no
reason to use FAT at all.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 December 2016 04:35:02 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 07:38:18AM +0100, Xen wrote:
> > do...@mail.com schreef op 26-12-2016 3:41:
> > >I encountered this many times on windowz FAT32 in a non-root dir,
> > > but never on Linux. I suspect that it was/is one of their
> > > "Features". The said "Feature" still was there when using ntfs in
> > > XP if I remember correctly.
> >
> > Perhaps it's just because Windows Explorer doesn't deal well with
> > many files. Try to unpack some open source archive of some
> > distributor that had to make their sources open, some 1G archive,
> > and see how it goes. Not recommended :p.
> >
> > Then when you've unpacked it, deleting it takes a few years as well.
> > So imposing a filesystem limit may just have been a way to ensure
> > that their user interface limit is not quickly reached, I don't
> > know.
>
> Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:
>
>   dd if=/dev/zero of=dose bs=4096 count=64
>   mkfs.vfat dose
>   sudo mkfs.vfat dose
>   sudo mount dose /mnt
>   for i in $(seq 1 1) ; do sudo touch /mnt/f.$(printf "%05d" $i)
> || echo "fail $i" ; done
>
> The loop starts failing at i == 257 with "no space left on device"
> (that's ENOSPC if I remember correctly). The "device" has still
> reams of space left:
>
>   tomas@rasputin:~$ df -h
>   Filesystem Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>   [...]
>   /dev/loop0 238K 0  238K   0% /mnt
>
> So 256 must be a limit on number of entries on the top level dir of
> FATty file systems (or an implementation limit of Linux's version
> of that, but guess whom I trust more to bust that badly).
>
> Try this at home. Enjoy.
>
> -- t
From personal experience decades ago, on a dos3.2 system, this is 
correct. But I can't testify about the newer, or the now several non-M$ 
versions of dos. I saw an announcement of yet another dos release just a 
couple weeks back. I assume its getting better The limitations of dos3.2 
drove me to find a better os, and os9 from microware, running on color 
computers was it. Its still alive, but called Nitros9 now since we've 
taken it apart, found several bugs and fixed them, and in the process 
made it about 2x faster without touching the cpu clock. Basically it is 
unix without the security overhead. But it does separate users, as it is 
multi-user, and multi-tasking.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 07:38:18AM +0100, Xen wrote:
> do...@mail.com schreef op 26-12-2016 3:41:
> 
> >I encountered this many times on windowz FAT32 in a non-root dir, but
> >never on Linux. I suspect that it was/is one of their "Features". The
> >said "Feature" still was there when using ntfs in XP if I remember
> >correctly.
> 
> Perhaps it's just because Windows Explorer doesn't deal well with
> many files. Try to unpack some open source archive of some
> distributor that had to make their sources open, some 1G archive,
> and see how it goes. Not recommended :p.
> 
> Then when you've unpacked it, deleting it takes a few years as well.
> So imposing a filesystem limit may just have been a way to ensure
> that their user interface limit is not quickly reached, I don't
> know.

Calculemus, as Leibnitz said. A bit of experimental informatics:

  dd if=/dev/zero of=dose bs=4096 count=64
  mkfs.vfat dose
  sudo mkfs.vfat dose
  sudo mount dose /mnt
  for i in $(seq 1 1) ; do sudo touch /mnt/f.$(printf "%05d" $i) || echo 
"fail $i" ; done

The loop starts failing at i == 257 with "no space left on device"
(that's ENOSPC if I remember correctly). The "device" has still
reams of space left:

  tomas@rasputin:~$ df -h
  Filesystem Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
  [...]
  /dev/loop0 238K 0  238K   0% /mnt

So 256 must be a limit on number of entries on the top level dir of
FATty file systems (or an implementation limit of Linux's version
of that, but guess whom I trust more to bust that badly).

Try this at home. Enjoy.

- -- t
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=I4nJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[Xen]

do...@mail.com schreef op 26-12-2016 3:41:


I encountered this many times on windowz FAT32 in a non-root dir, but
never on Linux. I suspect that it was/is one of their "Features". The
said "Feature" still was there when using ntfs in XP if I remember
correctly.


Perhaps it's just because Windows Explorer doesn't deal well with many 
files. Try to unpack some open source archive of some distributor that 
had to make their sources open, some 1G archive, and see how it goes. 
Not recommended :p.


Then when you've unpacked it, deleting it takes a few years as well. So 
imposing a filesystem limit may just have been a way to ensure that 
their user interface limit is not quickly reached, I don't know.

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[doark]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 13:46:25 +0100
Nicolas George <geo...@nsup.org> wrote:
> > As I recall that there is (or used to be?) a limit on the number of
> > files in the
> > top level directory of a FAT32 (or 16?) partition / drive.  If you
> > needed to
> > have more files in a directory, you had to create a subdirectory
> > (and, as I
> > recall, there was no limit on the number of files in a subdirectory).
> > Does anybody else (reading this) recall that, and recall more
> > details, like
> > the maximum number of files and which FAT systems (32 or 16) this
> > applied to,
> > and, further, is it still a limit on FAT32?
> > The limit might have existed in FAT12 as well (or some similar
> > limit), but as
> > I recall it was in FAT16 or later.  
> 
> In FAT like many filesystems, directories are just files that contain
> the name of other files and pointers to their data. The size of
> directories is limited by the size of the file that implements it. It
> can grow as needed.
> 
> Except in FAT, the root directory is statically allocated, and can not
> grow.
> 
> You can observe the -r option to mkdosfs for example.


I encountered this many times on windowz FAT32 in a non-root dir, but
never on Linux. I suspect that it was/is one of their "Features". The
said "Feature" still was there when using ntfs in XP if I remember
correctly.

It's not hard to trigger. Just mount a flash drive and make some file
using, for example, a script (or wget -m https://wikipedia.org).

Sincerely,
David

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level directory

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, December 08, 2016 12:49:42 PM Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Dec 2016, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

...

> Ugh. Well, for FAT32, "it depends" on the implementation, but it is not
> unlimited.
> 
> Even for FAT12/16, the number of entries in the root directory region
> could be changed at filesystem creation time (within some limits).
> OTOH, when you use VFAT on top, it can consume more than one "directory
> entry" per file...
> 
> So you never know for sure with FAT12/16/32 + VFAT ;-)
> 
> Here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_the_FAT_file_system
> 
> > The limit might have existed in FAT12 as well (or some similar limit),
> > but as I recall it was in FAT16 or later.
> 
> FAT32 has its own limits, and you should consider that particular
> implementations will also have extra limits, especially on embedded
> devices.

Thanks very much to all who replied!

The intended use is on an embedded device (old photo frame) for which we don't 
have the manual, I guess we'll find out when we hit the limit...

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level directory

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2016, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> Does anybody else (reading this) recall that, and recall more details, like 
> the maximum number of files and which FAT systems (32 or 16) this applied to, 
> and, further, is it still a limit on FAT32?

Ugh. Well, for FAT32, "it depends" on the implementation, but it is not
unlimited.

Even for FAT12/16, the number of entries in the root directory region
could be changed at filesystem creation time (within some limits).
OTOH, when you use VFAT on top, it can consume more than one "directory
entry" per file...

So you never know for sure with FAT12/16/32 + VFAT ;-)

Here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_the_FAT_file_system

> The limit might have existed in FAT12 as well (or some similar limit), but as 
> I recall it was in FAT16 or later.

FAT32 has its own limits, and you should consider that particular
implementations will also have extra limits, especially on embedded
devices.

-- 
  Henrique Holschuh

Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level directory

[Charlie Kravetz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 07:42:33 -0500
rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

>I've been googling to try to answer this question, so far, no luck.
>
>I recall that there is (or used to be?) a limit on the number of files in the 
>top level directory of a FAT32 (or 16?) partition / drive.  If you needed to 
>have more files in a directory, you had to create a subdirectory (and, as I 
>recall, there was no limit on the number of files in a subdirectory).
>
>Does anybody else (reading this) recall that, and recall more details, like 
>the maximum number of files and which FAT systems (32 or 16) this applied to, 
>and, further, is it still a limit on FAT32?
>
>The limit might have existed in FAT12 as well (or some similar limit), but as 
>I recall it was in FAT16 or later.
>

You are correct in the limit in the root directory. I thought the limit
was 128 files/directories, but I could be wrong. I believe the limit
was when using FAT 16. FAT 32 raised this limit, but I don't remember
the numbers, since by then I was using sub-directories to insure never
hitting the limit. 

- -- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]
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Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level directory

[Nicolas George]

L'octidi 18 frimaire, an CCXXV, rhkra...@gmail.com a écrit :
> I recall that there is (or used to be?) a limit on the number of files in the 
> top level directory of a FAT32 (or 16?) partition / drive.  If you needed to 
> have more files in a directory, you had to create a subdirectory (and, as I 
> recall, there was no limit on the number of files in a subdirectory).
> 
> Does anybody else (reading this) recall that, and recall more details, like 
> the maximum number of files and which FAT systems (32 or 16) this applied to, 
> and, further, is it still a limit on FAT32?
> 
> The limit might have existed in FAT12 as well (or some similar limit), but as 
> I recall it was in FAT16 or later.

In FAT like many filesystems, directories are just files that contain
the name of other files and pointers to their data. The size of
directories is limited by the size of the file that implements it. It
can grow as needed.

Except in FAT, the root directory is statically allocated, and can not
grow.

You can observe the -r option to mkdosfs for example.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level directory

[rhkramer]

I've been googling to try to answer this question, so far, no luck.

I recall that there is (or used to be?) a limit on the number of files in the 
top level directory of a FAT32 (or 16?) partition / drive.  If you needed to 
have more files in a directory, you had to create a subdirectory (and, as I 
recall, there was no limit on the number of files in a subdirectory).

Does anybody else (reading this) recall that, and recall more details, like 
the maximum number of files and which FAT systems (32 or 16) this applied to, 
and, further, is it still a limit on FAT32?

The limit might have existed in FAT12 as well (or some similar limit), but as 
I recall it was in FAT16 or later.

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Stephen Allen]

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 07:07:03AM +, Curt wrote:
> On 2016-05-29, Stephen Allen <marathon.duran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:16:50PM +0200, Hársfalvi Gábor wrote:
> >> Hi!
> >> 
> >> Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For 
> >> example
> >> from center to left side.
> >> 
> >> Thanks.
> >
> > If you look on extensions.gnome.org you might find an extension to do
> > this. I'm not sure. The Gnome UI is mostly CSS and javascript FWIU
> > however I have no idea of which property to alter. Gnome has an email
> > list might find some pointers there, if no extension can be found.
> >
> >
> 
> https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/2/move-clock/
> 
> seems to fit the bill (though I believe Sven already mentioned this).

Yes he did, unfortunately didn't read his reply prior to responding.

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 27 May 2016 14:24:31 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Friday 27 May 2016 14:16:50 Hársfalvi Gábor wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For
> > example from center to left side.
>
> What desktop??  Or is it a window manager?  I seem to remember that you are
> running Gnome3 on Jessie, but you really need to say so when you ask this
> type of question.
>
> In TDE 3.5.13.2 on Wheezy, and TDE 14.0.4 on Jessie, you click just to the
> left of the clock applet to bring up a small window which offers, among
> other things, to move the clock.  You choose "move the clock" and move it.
>
> Lisi

MEA CULPA. "Re: Gnome top bar clock"

Lisi

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Curt]

On 2016-05-29, Stephen Allen <marathon.duran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:16:50PM +0200, Hársfalvi Gábor wrote:
>> Hi!
>> 
>> Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For example
>> from center to left side.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>
> If you look on extensions.gnome.org you might find an extension to do
> this. I'm not sure. The Gnome UI is mostly CSS and javascript FWIU
> however I have no idea of which property to alter. Gnome has an email
> list might find some pointers there, if no extension can be found.
>
>

https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/2/move-clock/

seems to fit the bill (though I believe Sven already mentioned this).

-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Stephen Allen]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 03:16:50PM +0200, Hársfalvi Gábor wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For example
> from center to left side.
> 
> Thanks.

If you look on extensions.gnome.org you might find an extension to do
this. I'm not sure. The Gnome UI is mostly CSS and javascript FWIU
however I have no idea of which property to alter. Gnome has an email
list might find some pointers there, if no extension can be found.

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Fri, 2016-05-27 at 15:16 +0200, Hársfalvi Gábor wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For 
> example from center to left side.

You need to use extensions for that
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/2/move-clock/

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 27 May 2016 14:24:31 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> In TDE 3.5.13.2 on Wheezy, and TDE 14.0.4 on Jessie, you click just to the
> left of the clock applet to bring up a small window which offers, among
> other things, to move the clock.  You choose "move the clock" and move it.

Sorry, you RIGHT click etc.

Lisi

Re: Gnome top bar clock

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 27 May 2016 14:16:50 Hársfalvi Gábor wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For
> example from center to left side.

What desktop??  Or is it a window manager?  I seem to remember that you are 
running Gnome3 on Jessie, but you really need to say so when you ask this 
type of question.

In TDE 3.5.13.2 on Wheezy, and TDE 14.0.4 on Jessie, you click just to the 
left of the clock applet to bring up a small window which offers, among other 
things, to move the clock.  You choose "move the clock" and move it.

Lisi

Gnome top bar clock

[Hársfalvi Gábor]

Hi!

Is there any way to move the clock on the bar top on the screen? For 
example from center to left side.


Thanks.

Re: [OT] top-posting (was: unlisted mirrors & non-gui installation)

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:31:27 -0300
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI <ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:16:03 +0300
> Reco <recovery...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > Please do not top post. And please do not send html e-mails to the list.
> > 
> > On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:40:08 -0500
> > Adrian O'Dell <crimsonm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > That is not what appears in Debian 8, netinst. Here is the one that 
> > > appears:  
> 
> 
> You preach by example ?   ;-3)

Only if the situation calls for it. This one did :)
And the best place for a friendly advice about top-posting is at the
top.

Reco

Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[pv29]

2015-06-30 15:47 GMT+02:00 steve dl...@bluewin.ch:
   Salut,

   Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ?

   history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10

   Chez moi:

   11849 mutt
4671 cd
2615 ls
1949 l
1465 vim
 953 lrt
 618 cat
 613 less
 581 xpdf
 486 ll

 (l='ls -lA', ll='ls -l' et lrt='ls -lrt' sont des alias)

$ history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
 115 r2e
  84 alpine
  83 fetchmail
  57 ls
  45 ps
  15 cat
  13 {
  13 mail
   6 history
   6 echo



##   r2e = pour transformer des flux RSS ou Atom en e-mails, et
alpine pour les lire

##   fetchmail = pour collecter les mails des listes Debian !

##   { = des scripts maison appelés depuis l'historique de la ligne de commande

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[steve]

Le 01-07-2015, à 06:57:01 +0200, Grégory Bulot a écrit :

 Le Tue, 30 Jun 2015 22:26:03 +0200,
 steve dl...@bluewin.ch a écrit :
 
   D'où vient ce $5 ? Chez moi, comme chez beaucoup d'autres je pense,
   il faut un $2 ; qu'as-tu de particulier ?  
   
 Bonne question. Sur mon serveur perso, besoin du 5e champ mais pas
 sur mon portable (2eme). Je vais creuser… demain :)
 
 HISTFORMAT ou ont peut y ajouter la date et heure d'utilisation de
 cette commande
  
  C'est exactement ça. J'ai dû modifié cela dans une autre vie et depuis
  je l'avais complètement oublié. Faut dire que je n'utilise que très
  très rarement la commande history.

  Merci.

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Grégory Bulot]

Le Tue, 30 Jun 2015 22:26:03 +0200,
steve dl...@bluewin.ch a écrit :

  D'où vient ce $5 ? Chez moi, comme chez beaucoup d'autres je pense,
  il faut un $2 ; qu'as-tu de particulier ?  
  
Bonne question. Sur mon serveur perso, besoin du 5e champ mais pas
sur mon portable (2eme). Je vais creuser… demain :)

HISTFORMAT ou ont peut y ajouter la date et heure d'utilisation de
cette commande

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[Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[steve]

  Salut,

  Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 

  history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
  
  Chez moi:

  11849 mutt
   4671 cd
   2615 ls
   1949 l
   1465 vim
953 lrt
618 cat
613 less
581 xpdf
486 ll

(l='ls -lA', ll='ls -l' et lrt='ls -lrt' sont des alias)

 

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Re : [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[nicolas . patrois]

Le 30/06/2015 15:47:23, steve a écrit :

   Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 

   history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head 
 -10

awk: ligne de commande:1: {print $5} ; 
awk: ligne de commande:1:   ^ caractère incorrect « � » dans 
l'expression

Il y a une espace insécable…
Sinon, le résultat est incohérent.

nicolas patrois : pts noir asocial
-- 
RÉALISME

M : Qu'est-ce qu'il nous faudrait pour qu'on nous considère comme des 
humains ? Un cerveau plus gros ?
P : Non... Une carte bleue suffirait...

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Re: Re : [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[steve]

Le 30-06-2015, à 15:57:42 +0200, nicolas.patr...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Le 30/06/2015 15:47:23, steve a écrit :
 
Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 
 
history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head 
  -10
 
 awk: ligne de commande:1: {print $5} ; 
 awk: ligne de commande:1:   ^ caractère incorrect « � » dans 
 l'expression
 
 Il y a une espace insécable…

C'est vrai, je l'oublie souvent quand je copie-colle avec vim. C'est
une abréviation qui est faite pour me faciliter la vie lors de la
rédaction. Donc supprimer l'espace entre } et ; si vous voulez
copier-coller. Désolé.

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Alejandro CASTANO FERNANDEZ]

  history | awk '{print $*2*} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10

100 vi
 63 ls
 44 crontab
 41 apt-get
 40 ssh
 39 *
 36 ll
 34 top
 33 tail
 30 tcpdump

Le 30/06/2015 15:47, steve a écrit :
   Salut,

   Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 

   history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
   
   Chez moi:

   11849 mutt
4671 cd
2615 ls
1949 l
1465 vim
 953 lrt
 618 cat
 613 less
 581 xpdf
 486 ll

 (l='ls -lA', ll='ls -l' et lrt='ls -lrt' sont des alias)

  

Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[franc...@avalenn.eu]

2305 cd
1383 e
1267 grep
1262 lll
1171 mv
1081 less
1081 g
 999 rm
 846 cat
 796 sudo
 753 find
 688 for

e : emacsclient
g : git
lll : ls -ltra

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 03:47:23PM +0200, steve wrote:
   Salut,
 
   Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 
 
   history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
   
   Chez moi:
 
   11849 mutt
4671 cd
2615 ls
1949 l
1465 vim
 953 lrt
 618 cat
 613 less
 581 xpdf
 486 ll
 
 (l='ls -lA', ll='ls -l' et lrt='ls -lrt' sont des alias)
 
  
 
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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Fabrice Regnier]

'lut,


   Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ?

C'est rigolo ça.

FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | 
sort -rn | head -10

456 aptitude
132 killall
123 cd
101 ll
 81 v
 75 dmesg
 71 joe
 69 wget
 62 cat
 60 htop

ben, oui, j'aime avoir une machine bien à jour [aptitude] ;) Sinon, oui 
oui je sais, j'ai un problème (à régler) avec chrome [killall] !


Merci Steve pour cet intermède ;)

f.

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[fred]

~$ history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
    205 sudo
 62 dir
 39 cd
 21 lsusb
 18 lsmod
 16 killall
 15 netstat
 15 flac2mp3
 13 gedit
 11 ls

Euh... on peut faire sudo sous Ubuntu ?
 
  De : Alejandro CASTANO FERNANDEZ acastanofernan...@gmail.com
 À : debian-user-french@lists.debian.org 
 Envoyé le : Mardi 30 juin 2015 16h50
 Objet : Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées
   
ben oui, normal... trollici c'est une liste Debian et non pas Ubuntu
/troll

:P



Le 30/06/2015 16:38, steve a écrit :
 Le 30-06-2015, à 16:28:21 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :

 FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort 
 -rn | head -10
                        ^
                        |
                        Hum… tu bosses sous root ? 




   

Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Alejandro CASTANO FERNANDEZ]

ben oui, normal... trollici c'est une liste Debian et non pas Ubuntu
/troll

:P

Le 30/06/2015 16:38, steve a écrit :
 Le 30-06-2015, à 16:28:21 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :

 FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort 
 -rn | head -10
 ^
 |
 Hum… tu bosses sous root ? 


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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Grégory Bulot]

Sur ma machine de travail :

history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
112 git
 54 ll
 39 cd
 25 vi
 23 curl
 22 host
 20 cat
 19 tel
 18 history
 16 easy


tel et easy sont des outils maison ;-)

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Re : [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[nicolas . patrois]

En tant qu’utilisateur :
108 time
 63 ./pe-343.py
 59 ./pe-493.py
 32 aptitude
 31 ls
 16 ps
 14 ./pe-425.py
 11 top
  9 less
  9 balsa
Mais ça dépend des terminaux :
108 time
 78 ./pe-493.py
 63 ./pe-343.py
 51 ps
 15 ./pe-521.py
 15 ./pe-518.py
 14 ./pe-425.py
 13 nohup
 11 cd
  9 fg

En tant que root :
history | awk '{print $2} ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
373 aptitude
 16 service
 13 dhclient
 10 ls
  7 sh
  7 dropbox
  6 X
  6 vim
  6 systemctl
  6 ifconfig

nicolas patrois : pts noir asocial
-- 
RÉALISME

M : Qu'est-ce qu'il nous faudrait pour qu'on nous considère comme des 
humains ? Un cerveau plus gros ?
P : Non... Une carte bleue suffirait...

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[steve]

Le 30-06-2015, à 16:28:21 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :

 FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort 
 -rn | head -10
^
|
Hum… tu bosses sous root ? 

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Francois Lafont]

Bonjour,

~$ history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10 
136 vim
 68 exit
 59 ll
 59 gs
 56 uumg
 48 cd
 38 git
 33 tree
 29 echo
 26 pstree

# Taille de mon historique.
~$ history | wc -l
1018

Alors, explications : ;)

- j'aime beaucoup vim et git.
- gs est un alias de `git status`
- uumg est une fonction (Upgrade and Update My Gits) qui
  a) fait un `apt-get update  apt-get dist-upgrade` et
  b) met à jour tous les dépôts git locaux sur ma machine.
  Après ça, je peux commencer à travailler. ;)

À+

-- 
François Lafont

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Prego Jérémy]

marant ce  petit test !

sur ma machine desktop

  3 01live.sh
 61 exit
 51 dig
 49 mplayer
 38 echo
 25 curl
 24 traceroute
 23 epizode
 17 youtube-dl
 16 ffmpeg

sur mon serveur @home en root donc,
 77 tcpdump
 74 iptables
 40 route
 25 screen
 24 aptitude
 20 curl
 17 top
 16 /etc/init.d/asterisk
 15 exit
 12 killall

jerem
Le 30/06/2015 18:05, fred a écrit :

~$ history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
205 sudo
 62 dir
 39 cd
 21 lsusb
 18 lsmod
 16 killall
 15 netstat
 15 flac2mp3
 13 gedit
 11 ls

Euh... on peut faire sudo sous Ubuntu ?


*De :* Alejandro CASTANO FERNANDEZ acastanofernan...@gmail.com
*À :* debian-user-french@lists.debian.org
*Envoyé le :* Mardi 30 juin 2015 16h50
*Objet :* Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

ben oui, normal... trollici c'est une liste Debian et non pas Ubuntu
/troll

:P



Le 30/06/2015 16:38, steve a écrit :
 Le 30-06-2015, à 16:28:21 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :

 FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort |
uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
^
|
Hum… tu bosses sous root ?

Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Fabrice Regnier]

Le 30/06/2015 16:40, steve a écrit :

Le 30-06-2015, à 16:28:21 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :


FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn 
| head -10

 ^
 |
 Hum… tu bosses sous root ?

ouais... j'suis viré ? ;)

attends, je vais répondre à la question qui te brûle les lèvres:
...ouais, ça m'est déjà arrivé de faire une grosse connerie sous root

f.

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Sébastien Dinot]

Bonjour,

steve a écrit :
 Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 

J'aurais bien joué mais avec l'option suivante dans mon fichier
~/.bashrc, les résultats n'auraient rien à voir avec la réalité :

HISTCONTROL=ignoreboth:erasedups

Ceci étant, je suis à peu près certain que les commandes que j'utilise
le plus sont dans l'ordre ls, cd, emacs, mutt et ssh.

Sébastien

-- 
Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr
http://sebastien.dinot.free.fr/
Ne goûtez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer !

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[Eddy F.]

Le 30 jun 2015 à 15:47 (+0200)
steve dl...@bluewin.ch a écrit:

   Salut,
 
   Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 
 
   history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
   

Bonjour,

D'où vient ce $5 ? Chez moi, comme chez beaucoup d'autres je pense, il
faut un $2 ; qu'as-tu de particulier ?

J'obtiens

130 maxima
 65 vim
 23 sudo
 19 apt-cache
 17 sync
 17 l
 16 cd
 15 mount
 14 pdfgrep
 14 exit


-- 
Eddy F.

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[andre_debian]

Bonne initiative et instructif sondage :

Sur mon serveur :
$ history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
171 ls
134 vi
110 cd
106 service
 48 e
 47 ps
 43 df
 42 cat
 30 exit
 29 e2fsck

Sur mon PC perso :
109 ls
 75 e
 54 ssh
 54 cd
 28 vi
 21 cat
 18 ssh
 16 su
 14 mv

e est l'alias de clear

Il est intéressant de voir la différence entre
le serveur et le PC perso.

André

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[pascalv]

2015-06-30 15:47 GMT+02:00 steve dl...@bluewin.ch:

  Salut,

  Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ?

  history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10

  Chez moi:

  11849 mutt
   4671 cd
   2615 ls
   1949 l
   1465 vim
953 lrt
618 cat
613 less
581 xpdf
486 ll

(l='ls -lA', ll='ls -l' et lrt='ls -lrt' sont des alias)




 $ history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10
 115 r2e
  84 alpine
  83 fetchmail
  57 ls
  45 ps
  15 cat
  13 {
  13 mail
   6 history
   6 echo



 ##   r2e : pour transformer des flux RSS ou Atom en e-mails, et alpine pour 
les lire

 ##   fetchmail : pour accéder aux listes Debian !

 ##   { : pour des scripts maison appelés depuis l'historique de la ligne de 
commande

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[steve]

Le 30-06-2015, à 20:05:03 +0200, Eddy F. a écrit :

 Le 30 jun 2015 à 15:47 (+0200)
 steve dl...@bluewin.ch a écrit:
 
Salut,
  
Pour se détendre 2 minutes, que donne ceci chez vous ? 
  
history | awk '{print $5} ; ' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | head -10

 
 Bonjour,
 
 D'où vient ce $5 ? Chez moi, comme chez beaucoup d'autres je pense, il
 faut un $2 ; qu'as-tu de particulier ?
 
   Bonne question. Sur mon serveur perso, besoin du 5e champ mais pas
   sur mon portable (2eme). Je vais creuser… demain :)

 J'obtiens
 
 130 maxima
  65 vim
  23 sudo
  19 apt-cache
  17 sync
  17 l
  16 cd
  15 mount
  14 pdfgrep
  14 exit

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Re: [Sondage] Top 10 des commandes utilisées

[steve]

Le 30-06-2015, à 18:24:23 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :

 Le 30/06/2015 16:40, steve a écrit :
 Le 30-06-2015, à 16:28:21 +0200, Fabrice Regnier a écrit :
 
 FR-PORT:/home/fabricer# history | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort 
 -rn | head -10
  ^
  |
  Hum… tu bosses sous root ?
 ouais... j'suis viré ? ;)
 
 attends, je vais répondre à la question qui te brûle les lèvres:
 ...ouais, ça m'est déjà arrivé de faire une grosse connerie sous root
  
  allé raconte ! :)

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