Re: POLL: tape backup format and software
On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 07:49:05PM +, Michael D. Norwick wrote: > I've also got more files stored on cheap flash media, than I'll ever be > able to figure out what I needed them for. I've got a couple of older > laptops with pcmcia slots that still read/write 8 year old media just fine. > I'm also looking at a pile of 9 and 12 GB hard drives (formatted ext3) > which hold who knows what, but will seek and access as soon as I plug > them in to a spare drive case I rigged for testing. > So, I've archived to tape (DLT, DDS, floppy tape, Travan) flash, pcmcia > media, zip, CD, DVD (usb HP unit), hard disk, and a pile of floppies. > All have saved my bacon during new installs gone wrong or utility power > interruptions. Tape rules if only for the quantity and efficiency of > data storage. > Are you archiving for posterity? What other kind of archiving is there? I can put a tape in the bank's safety deposit box (for secure off-site) but I can't fit a normal CD or DVD which leaves mini. Minis cost more and hold far less. There are lots of things that I don't backup because I don't have a place to put them. E.g. frequently used CDs, nice to have an .iso from which to make replacements. I could probably easily come up with at least 20 GB that I'd like to have on an archive; who knows what in the future. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: POLL: tape backup format and software
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: Could those of you who use tape (DDS, DLT, Ultrium) for backup or archive tell me what format and software you have found most helpful? I only have a couple of boxes to backup. Right now, they each run their own script and create a tarball that then the main box rsyncs to its raid1 array (and the main box rsyncs its most important data (small set) to the other boxes. I'm going to be transitioning to tape for long-term archiving. I could just pass the existing tarballs out to tapes and keep a manual log of what is where. I could use a different format. I could use some other software. Re format: since some things (e.g. CD.iso's to protect existing CDs from scratches) are intended for long-term storage, I would like the file format to be very portable. I know that nobody knows for sure what formats will be able to be read in 20 years, but what would be a good bet (to avoid having to copy the tape just to change formats)? For this reason, I don't want just dump tapes since they're filesystem (and OS?) specific. I don't need the complexity of Amanda or Baccula. I'm not sure I need any complexity at all. Thanks for your POLL results and your feedback. Doug. Don't understand all the bandwidth used in your search for a backup solution. You've been given a number of tape scenarios, cd, and dvd backup. 2 used DLT and DDS drives backup (and restore) all of my everyday stuff using only tar commands (which could be scheduled from a cron job if I wasn't so lazy) http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Backup_using_cron_(simple) I recently downloaded Lone-Tar - http://www.cactus.com/index.php?p=press43. It looks promising and appears worth paying for. CD's take care of anything I feel is REALLY important. http://cd-utils.sourceforge.net/ http://www.linux-backup.net/App/ http://www.willowsoft.com/backup/index.html I've also got more files stored on cheap flash media, than I'll ever be able to figure out what I needed them for. I've got a couple of older laptops with pcmcia slots that still read/write 8 year old media just fine. I'm also looking at a pile of 9 and 12 GB hard drives (formatted ext3) which hold who knows what, but will seek and access as soon as I plug them in to a spare drive case I rigged for testing. So, I've archived to tape (DLT, DDS, floppy tape, Travan) flash, pcmcia media, zip, CD, DVD (usb HP unit), hard disk, and a pile of floppies. All have saved my bacon during new installs gone wrong or utility power interruptions. Tape rules if only for the quantity and efficiency of data storage. Are you archiving for posterity? Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
POLL: tape backup format and software
Could those of you who use tape (DDS, DLT, Ultrium) for backup or archive tell me what format and software you have found most helpful? I only have a couple of boxes to backup. Right now, they each run their own script and create a tarball that then the main box rsyncs to its raid1 array (and the main box rsyncs its most important data (small set) to the other boxes. I'm going to be transitioning to tape for long-term archiving. I could just pass the existing tarballs out to tapes and keep a manual log of what is where. I could use a different format. I could use some other software. Re format: since some things (e.g. CD.iso's to protect existing CDs from scratches) are intended for long-term storage, I would like the file format to be very portable. I know that nobody knows for sure what formats will be able to be read in 20 years, but what would be a good bet (to avoid having to copy the tape just to change formats)? For this reason, I don't want just dump tapes since they're filesystem (and OS?) specific. I don't need the complexity of Amanda or Baccula. I'm not sure I need any complexity at all. Thanks for your POLL results and your feedback. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tape backup hardware question
Hi, I just purchased and returned a DDS5 (DAT 72) drive which I was told would be able to ready my DDS4 tapes. I tried two drives, but both failed with the tape becoming irretrievably jammed in the drive. Can someone suggest a SCSI tape storage solution which is upwardly compatible, ie can ready tapes from the previous version? I prefer to use tape. Debian is my OS. Thanks for your suggestions. David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 11:13:31AM -0500, J French wrote: > We are setting up Debian Linux on a new server for a PostGreSQL database. In > the past, on FreeBSD, I used the dump utility with the live filesystem > (snapshot) switch to backup the running database. Does dump on linux support > live filesystem backups as well? How are most people backing up to tape with > Debian (or linux in general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a > production server. Advice is appreciated. First, migrate your partitions to LVM. Then use snapshot to take a snapshot of the postgres partition, then use the backup tool of your choice to backup the snapshot to tape. I use bacula for that because it lets you do backup schedules and it can call scripts before and after to create/delete the snapshot. This solution will give you the smallest downtime for your postgres database, without worrying about data integrity issues. -- Dave Carrigan Seattle, WA, USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.rudedog.org/ UNIX-Apache-Perl-Linux-Firewalls-LDAP-C-C++-DNS-PalmOS-PostgreSQL-MySQL-Postfix signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
You might check out bakula or afbackup, they're both on sourceforge I think. Trying google will also work :-) Cheers & success! Wim On Mon, Sep 19, 2005 at 11:22:13AM -0400, Tom Vier wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 11:13:31AM -0500, J French wrote: > > Debian (or linux in general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a > > production server. Advice is appreciated. > > You cannot use dump on a read/write mounted fs - the kernel does not keep > writes from the fs coherent with the block device you read from (eg, > /dev/hda0). You must at least mount the fs read-only. Also, dump only > supports ext2, last time i checked, and may not support newer options such > as directory hashes. GNU tar is what i use (with the -g incremental option). > > -- > Tom Vier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > DSA Key ID 0x15741ECE > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 11:13:31AM -0500, J French wrote: > Debian (or linux in general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a > production server. Advice is appreciated. You cannot use dump on a read/write mounted fs - the kernel does not keep writes from the fs coherent with the block device you read from (eg, /dev/hda0). You must at least mount the fs read-only. Also, dump only supports ext2, last time i checked, and may not support newer options such as directory hashes. GNU tar is what i use (with the -g incremental option). -- Tom Vier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DSA Key ID 0x15741ECE -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 11:13 -0500, J French wrote: > > How are most people backing up to tape with Debian (or linux in > > general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a production > > server. Advice is appreciated. I ran a Linux lab for a while. Ended up with one of those 200G tape drives running off a NetApp fileserver. Since the main filesystem was on Raid5 I only did a weekly tape dump and stored the tapes in my apartment. It worked fine as long as we only had 200G of data, but manually changing tapes is an enormous hassle! I can't imagine anyone running a large site with a single-tape drive. Do you have the hardware angle under control? I started out with a nice full/incremental system using dump, but I believe that during the time when everything would fit on one tape I was just using tar and doing a full backup each time (everything worked unattended except picking up the tape on Friday and swapping the new one in, so that was fine by me). Reasons not to do that: 1) If you have more data than will fit in a single tape (or you're in a rush), you will want to do full/incremental backups. The incrementals had better each fit on one tape, but the fulls won't, of course. And swapping tapes is really really tedious!!! However, if you can afford a robotic tape drive, such as those from Tadpole (AIR they start at around $10k), you might be very happy with tapes. The problem is still remembering to take the tapes offsite in case the building burns down. 2) If you ever do want to restore less than the whole filesystem, tapes make it hard to find (and then there's the whole offsite thingy). I used tapes because the backup was meant as a measure against catastrophic failure only--the NetApp handled daily accidental deletions, disk failures, etc, perfectly. But if you don't have such a nice fileserver, you care more! My current solution for my personal computer is an external USB2 disk, and faubackup. Not offsite :( but very cost-effective, and faubackup basically pulls the same stunt that the NetApp did (on the file level rather than inodes, so not as sophisticated nor efficient). So I have nightly backups for a week, weekly for a month, monthly for 3, annual forever, or whatever you like, of everything I need, at my fingertips. 200G drives are now <$200, and you can easily add more. As I recall, 100G tapes were $100, and that's not counting the (then) $4000 tape drive. For a company a big cheap fileserver would be more appropriate for this, but you get the idea. Oh, by the way, last I checked (over a year ago) faubackup was terribly, terribly slow and needs work. But I threw it out there as a random idea. So happens that I can get away with no offsite without feeling too guilty by using Unison to sync my desktop to my laptop, which tends to live offsite. But for a real company, this would be an interesting "solution." But what seems to me to be the best is a mutual arrangement with someone offsite, along the lines of each party saying "Here's x bytes of network-accessible storage and a login account for you." Then, rdist your filesystem to the remote site (or ideally something cleverer like CVS/Subversion/etc). Why don't more people do this? I'm thinking of setting this up for my current lab--any words of warning? May all your best data be immortalised! -Ben -- Ben Pearre http://hebb.mit.edu/~ben PGP: CFDA6CDA Free music at http://hebb.mit.edu/FreeMusic Don't let Bush read your email! http://www.gnupg.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
I'll throw in a suggestion for bacula: http://bacula.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 11:13 -0500, J French wrote: > How are most people backing up to tape with Debian (or linux in > general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a production > server. Advice is appreciated. I'm using Amanda, but Amanda uses dump or gtar, so the question about live filesystems is still there. I use it with gtar and it backs up all my filesystems every night. I hope... The amanda-users could instantly answer your question, I suspect. http://www.amanda.org/support/mailinglists.php -- Glenn English [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG ID: D0D7FF20 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, J French wrote: > Hello, > We are setting up Debian Linux on a new server for a PostGreSQL database. In > the past, on FreeBSD, I used the dump utility with the live filesystem > (snapshot) switch to backup the running database. Does dump on linux support > live filesystem backups as well? How are most people backing up to tape with > Debian (or linux in general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a > production server. Advice is appreciated. > -John > These are two distinct questions: getting the data out of postgresql and getting them onto a tape. The pg_dump script will accept the live flag under linux as well as freebsd, as far as I know; I would imagine the worst you might find is that there's some blocking while the data are written out. As for putting it onto tape, the simplest is probably just to use tar. You could script it automatically if you like, as in the below UNTESTED code: pg_dump -Ft dbname > /dev/nst0 which would dump the tar version of the backup directly to your tape drive. ap -- Andrew J Perrin - http://www.unc.edu/~aperrin Assistant Professor of Sociology, U of North Carolina, Chapel Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] * andrew_perrin (at) unc.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tape Backup advice needed - dump, tar etc.
Hello, We are setting up Debian Linux on a new server for a PostGreSQL database. In the past, on FreeBSD, I used the dump utility with the live filesystem (snapshot) switch to backup the running database. Does dump on linux support live filesystem backups as well? How are most people backing up to tape with Debian (or linux in general)? I need a robust backup because this will be a production server. Advice is appreciated. -John
Re: Sony AIT-1 tape backup
More info, # mt erase # mt seek /dev/tape: Input/output error # mt status SCSI 2 tape drive: File number=-1, block number=-1, partition=0. Tape block size 512 bytes. Density code 0x30 (AIT-1 or MLR3). Soft error count since last status=0 General status bits on (101): ONLINE IM_REP_EN Any ideas why I get I/O errors??? TIA, Brendan Simon. Brendan Simon wrote: Hi, I have a Sony AIT-1 tape backup unit (IDE) installed in a PowerMac running debian/testing with a 2.6.8 kernel. I have not had much success getting it to work :( I have made a symlink from /dev/tape to /dev/nst0 I have the following in my /etc/modules. ide-tape ide-scsi ide-cd ide-detect st scsi_mod I only time the machine recognises the IDE tape drive is if I reboot with ide-tape uncommented in the modules file. I can shows up as /proc/ide/hde/ -> /proc/ide/ide2/hde/ # cat /proc/ide/hde/model SONY SDX-420C # cat /proc/ide/hde/driver ide-scsi version 0.92 When I initially boot I can run commands like "mt status", etc. When I try writing to the tape it just seems to hang and then I not talk to the device again. I get error messages such as: /dev/tape does not exist /dev/tape no such device or address Any ideas what could be causing this? Has anyone successfully used a Sony AIT-1 IDE on a Linux machine (PowerPC or otherwise). Many thanks in advance for any help. Regards, Brendan Simon. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sony AIT-1 tape backup
Hi, I have a Sony AIT-1 tape backup unit (IDE) installed in a PowerMac running debian/testing with a 2.6.8 kernel. I have not had much success getting it to work :( I have made a symlink from /dev/tape to /dev/nst0 I have the following in my /etc/modules. ide-tape ide-scsi ide-cd ide-detect st scsi_mod I only time the machine recognises the IDE tape drive is if I reboot with ide-tape uncommented in the modules file. I can shows up as /proc/ide/hde/ -> /proc/ide/ide2/hde/ # cat /proc/ide/hde/model SONY SDX-420C # cat /proc/ide/hde/driver ide-scsi version 0.92 When I initially boot I can run commands like "mt status", etc. When I try writing to the tape it just seems to hang and then I not talk to the device again. I get error messages such as: /dev/tape does not exist /dev/tape no such device or address Any ideas what could be causing this? Has anyone successfully used a Sony AIT-1 IDE on a Linux machine (PowerPC or otherwise). Many thanks in advance for any help. Regards, Brendan Simon. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape backup woes (mt)... should I file a bug report?
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Christian Schnobrich wrote: > Eventually and accidentally, I found out about rewinding and > non-rewinding device files, the information being hidden deep in the tar > info file. For all who don't know it: [ snip info about /dev/stX (auto-rewinding) vs. /dev/nst0 (non-rewinding) tape devices ] > I don't usually use info, and from the occasional man-vs-info flamewar > on this list I know I'm not alone. Furthermore, I'd never have looked > for this in the tar documentation. Or do I use tar to fast-forward the > tape? All I knew to start with was that 'mt eom' apparently didn't work > as advertised. I agree, it is very non-intuitive. On the other hand, it is also in every tape-backup FAQ I've ever seen, so the info is readily available. I'm not saying that to be an asshole (really!). IMHO, the first steps to take when something doesn't work right are to hit the man pages, followed by a FAQ/How-To search. (See <http://tldp.org/>.) If you already know that, then please ignore. > IMO, the (non-)rewinding device issue should be mentioned in the mt > manpage. But does this omission really justify a bug report? Or is it > just me? It's not a bug, so it probably shouldn't be approached as one. There is a disturbing amount of voodoo involve in getting various scsi tape drives to work in a sane fashion. The nst0/st0 device interface is the least of ones worries. FYI, not all tape drives will report their tape location (file status, byte location, etc) in a consistent manner. My Archive Python DAT can get confused following a sequence of fsf/bsf commands. The only reliable way to count the number of files on a tape, and get to the one you want, is to rewind to the beginning and then use either the afs or eom commands. Do this before every operation where you are going to read/write to the tape. This is kind of critical as it really sucks when you discover today's incremental overwrote all of Thursdays and the first half of Fridays because the backup script or tape hardware lost track of where it was. Power cycles and computer reboots (ie. what happens when the scsi interface is initialized) can also make the tape location indeterminate. > While I'm at it, one more thing I don't understand -- mt comes with the > cpio package, and there's another package mt-st one may install. I don't > notice any significant difference between the two, so where's the point? > Under what circumstances would I want or prefer mt-st over mt? FWIW, I tried both the cpio-mt binary and the mt-st binary and ended up sticking with the mt-st version. I have vague recollections that it seemed to have more features... -- Brad Sawatzky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> University of Virginia Physics Department Ph: (434) 924-6580Fax: (434) 924-7909 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tape backup woes (mt)... should I file a bug report?
Hello, I've got a tape drive for backups, and for a long time I was absolutely unable to store more than a singe archive per tape. Stop smiling, that's not funny. Eventually and accidentally, I found out about rewinding and non-rewinding device files, the information being hidden deep in the tar info file. For all who don't know it: > Most tape devices have two entries in the `/dev' directory, > [... /dev/tape, /dev/ntape ...] The simpler name is the > _rewinding_ version of the device, while the name having `nr' in it is > the _no rewinding_ version of the same device. > >A rewinding tape device will bring back the tape to its beginning > point automatically when this device is opened or closed. So 'mt -f /dev/tape fsf 1' will first bring the tape to the beginning of the second file, but once the command is finished the tape will rewind. Smart move. I don't usually use info, and from the occasional man-vs-info flamewar on this list I know I'm not alone. Furthermore, I'd never have looked for this in the tar documentation. Or do I use tar to fast-forward the tape? All I knew to start with was that 'mt eom' apparently didn't work as advertised. IMO, the (non-)rewinding device issue should be mentioned in the mt manpage. But does this omission really justify a bug report? Or is it just me? While I'm at it, one more thing I don't understand -- mt comes with the cpio package, and there's another package mt-st one may install. I don't notice any significant difference between the two, so where's the point? Under what circumstances would I want or prefer mt-st over mt? cu, Schnobs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
on Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 03:38:26PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 04:40:55AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > on Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:37:26PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:57:04AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > > > > > > > If you need to recover a snapshot (or file) from 12 months ago, a > > > > three-disk rotation isn't going to do much for you. > > > > > > We backup offsite on CD, so restoring files 12 months old can be > > > covered that way. > > > > Did you back up to floppies in 1995? > > > > 1995 shipping hard disk size: 512 MiB > > 1995 shipping floppy size: 1.4 MiB > > Floppies required for a full system backup: 366 > > > > Current shipping hard disk size: 200 GiB > > Current shipping CDROM capacity: 700 MiB > > CDROMs required for a full system backup:293 > > > > You could cover your needs with 1-2 large capacity tapes. > > > > Incremental backups would be even smaller. > > > > Note that CDR as arechival media for old projects is reasonably sane. > > For system backups, it's idiotic. > > > > This is what I mean - we do not need to be able to do a full system > restore for files in the distant past. > > We publish maths textbooks and each book fits on one or two CDs, so > once we have a book printed, we dump it onto CD and store copies in a > couple of locations. > > So backups from our point of view only need to cover for what's > currently being worked on. Note that your risk model doesn't address system recovery should you need to rebuild servers. Just be aware that you've addressed only a small subset of the typical issues answered by a good backup scheme. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Linux Gazette: Making Linux just a little more fun. http://www.linuxgazette.net/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 19:02, David Purton wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:29:39AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 06:00, Haines Brown wrote: > > > You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should > > > be tape. > > > > > > I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is > > > the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not > > > run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 > > > DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer > > > having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably > > > stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external > > > drive can be moved to any machine. > > > The big knock against disks as backup is that he'd need 14(!!) disk > > drives (one for each night, so that if "last night's disk" dies, > > he can go to the previous night's tape, and recover most of the > > data). > > > > Actaully we'd probably risk it with 3 disks - so at any given time we > have two full snapshots and then use the third disk for daily > backups. So drves would be not such a bad option. > > Also does anyone know anything about these Mobile Rack Hard Disk bays? Under Linux, removable IDE disks are really iffy. The kernel just isn't designed for it. External firewire hard disk enclosures, instead. For example: http://www.cooldrives.com/firen.html No need to reboot the system, since Linux thinks they are SCSI disks. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA "What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, other than that they trained in these camps?" 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 men arrested near Buffalo NY -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 22:07, David Purton wrote: > On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:57:04AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > on Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 10:41:15PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 07:00:19AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: [snip] > > If you need to recover a snapshot (or file) from 12 months ago, a > > three-disk rotation isn't going to do much for you. > > We backup offsite on CD, so restoring files 12 months old can be > covered that way. > > The main aim is that if a helicopter lands on our office (we are at an > airport, right next to the helicopters ;) ) or someone breaks in a > does a runner wth our server, then we need to be able to get the files > we are currently working on. Another method: If there's broadband service, 1. tar|gzip the data dir, and scp it to a cheap, old box sitting off site (say, with an internal 100GB HDD) that has firewire. 160GB should easily store 14 days at 15GB perday, if the data is even 33% compressible. 2. plug an external 160GB firewire disk into that box, and cp the tarball onto the external disk, and tote it to a 3rd site. You'll need a 2nd external 160GB firewire disk for rotation purposes. Thus, if office goes up in flames on the same day the building where the off-site PC gets burglarized, there would still be a 3rd copy out there. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Some former UNSCOM officials are alarmed, however. Terry Taylor, a British senior UNSCOM inspector from 1993 to 1997, says the figure of 95 percent disarmament is "complete nonsense because inspectors never learned what 100 percent was. UNSCOM found a great deal and destroyed a great deal, but we knew [Iraq's] work was continuing while we were there, and I'm sure it continues," says Mr. Taylor, now head of the Washington http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0829/p01s03-wosc.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 04:40:55AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > on Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:37:26PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:57:04AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > > > > If you need to recover a snapshot (or file) from 12 months ago, a > > > three-disk rotation isn't going to do much for you. > > > > We backup offsite on CD, so restoring files 12 months old can be > > covered that way. > > Did you back up to floppies in 1995? > > 1995 shipping hard disk size: 512 MiB > 1995 shipping floppy size: 1.4 MiB > Floppies required for a full system backup: 366 > > Current shipping hard disk size: 200 GiB > Current shipping CDROM capacity: 700 MiB > CDROMs required for a full system backup:293 > > You could cover your needs with 1-2 large capacity tapes. > > Incremental backups would be even smaller. > > Note that CDR as arechival media for old projects is reasonably sane. > For system backups, it's idiotic. > This is what I mean - we do not need to be able to do a full system restore for files in the distant past. We publish maths textbooks and each book fits on one or two CDs, so once we have a book printed, we dump it onto CD and store copies in a couple of locations. So backups from our point of view only need to cover for what's currently being worked on. dc -- David Purton [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Psalm 130:3 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
on Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:37:26PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:57:04AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > If you need to recover a snapshot (or file) from 12 months ago, a > > three-disk rotation isn't going to do much for you. > > We backup offsite on CD, so restoring files 12 months old can be > covered that way. Did you back up to floppies in 1995? 1995 shipping hard disk size: 512 MiB 1995 shipping floppy size: 1.4 MiB Floppies required for a full system backup: 366 Current shipping hard disk size: 200 GiB Current shipping CDROM capacity: 700 MiB CDROMs required for a full system backup:293 You could cover your needs with 1-2 large capacity tapes. Incremental backups would be even smaller. Note that CDR as arechival media for old projects is reasonably sane. For system backups, it's idiotic. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Microsoft Outlook: the security hole that happens to be an email client -- Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols, in "How to avoid ILOVEYOU", May, 2000 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 02:57:04AM +, Karsten M. Self wrote: > on Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 10:41:15PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 07:00:19AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > > > You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should > > > be tape. > > > > > > I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is > > > the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not > > > run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 > > > DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer > > > having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably > > > stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external > > > drive can be moved to any machine. > > > > > > > mmm - thanks - I'll look into it. > > What's your threat model? > > Nearline storage can be useful and convenient for rapid recovery of an > accidentally deleted file. > > For recovering from a breakin, fire, (ex) employee sabotage, an airplane > crashing into your office, lightning strike, earthquake, flood, or other > catastrophic event, you're SOL. > > If you need to recover a snapshot (or file) from 12 months ago, a > three-disk rotation isn't going to do much for you. We backup offsite on CD, so restoring files 12 months old can be covered that way. The main aim is that if a helicopter lands on our office (we are at an airport, right next to the helicopters ;) ) or someone breaks in a does a runner wth our server, then we need to be able to get the files we are currently working on. dc -- David Purton [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Psalm 130:3 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
on Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 10:41:15PM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 07:00:19AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > > You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should > > be tape. > > > > I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is > > the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not > > run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 > > DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer > > having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably > > stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external > > drive can be moved to any machine. > > > > mmm - thanks - I'll look into it. > > Tape is starting to look like a fairly ugly option in terms of cost, > but two or three usb drives might indeed be a good option. What's your threat model? Nearline storage can be useful and convenient for rapid recovery of an accidentally deleted file. For recovering from a breakin, fire, (ex) employee sabotage, an airplane crashing into your office, lightning strike, earthquake, flood, or other catastrophic event, you're SOL. If you need to recover a snapshot (or file) from 12 months ago, a three-disk rotation isn't going to do much for you. If you need a clearer image of what's at stake: consider that a number of businesses in the World Trade Center had full back up redundancy...in the other tower. Or in lower Manhattan. Or in midtown. All of which were either destroyed, or at the very least, offline for days after the attacks of September 11, 2001. Several drives will get you off the ground for nearline backup, in the near future. Consider what your storage growth pattern is (for most firms, it's on the order of 50-100% annually), and how you need to multiply storage requirements for backups (storage x redundancies). Tape offers a higher initial cost for the tape unit itself. Incremental cost of additional storage is very low ($15-20 for media), and media are reusable. Capacities are relatively high (20-80 GiB). A good network backup solution will include a staging area which can also provide nearline backup capabilities. I've used disk-based backup systems. They're great. Until you outgrow capacity. At which point, adding additional capacity means breaking down your current array, losing history, and a day or more's backups downtime while working out the kinks. I'll recommend tape. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Backgrounder on the Caldera/SCO vs. IBM and Linux dispute. http://sco.iwethey.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations - disks
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, David Purton wrote: > > Actaully we'd probably risk it with 3 disks - so at any given time we > have two full snapshots and then use the third disk for daily > backups. So drves would be not such a bad option. > > Also does anyone know anything about these Mobile Rack Hard Disk bays? if you use "mobile racks" ... - you're gonna assume that those those are changed daily - its working properly those things caoses $5.00 - $100 depending on model and features - there's no such thing as hotswap ide ( how do you know nothing was writing data to it ?? ) - its best to power down the box, and install the drive bays - full backups takes too much space ... and hard to span a month or 6 months of backups when using only "full backups" - only backup what you consider important data ( let's /home and /etc ) /usr and other system files are already on your original cdrom c ya alvin possible 3 disk backup strategies ... # # assume yesterday's back or last weeks full backup was bad ... # - what do you do ?? # # assume your disk crashed on your backup servers # - power surge ro something whacky # - put one disk in each of 3 different PCs evenly spread all backups across all 3 disks alternating and taking turns daily - always do incremental backup since your last full backup +1 more day find /home /etc -mtime -8 ( or a running count since full backups ) - always do incremental weekly backups ( spanning 2 full backups ( 21 or 30 days) of changes ) find /home /etc -mtime -22 - always do incremental monthly backups spanning 3 or 6 months find /home /etc -mtime -93 - incremental changes should be small ... - if you have tons of *.MP3 or tons of *.larg-files, those should be backed up separately to other "backup data disks" and NOT backed up w/ system and corp data - lots of ways for backups to fail .. ( tape or disks ) and how to get around it http://www.linux-Backup.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:29:39AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 06:00, Haines Brown wrote: > > You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should > > be tape. > > > > I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is > > the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not > > run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 > > DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer > > having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably > > stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external > > drive can be moved to any machine. > The big knock against disks as backup is that he'd need 14(!!) disk > drives (one for each night, so that if "last night's disk" dies, > he can go to the previous night's tape, and recover most of the > data). > Actaully we'd probably risk it with 3 disks - so at any given time we have two full snapshots and then use the third disk for daily backups. So drves would be not such a bad option. Also does anyone know anything about these Mobile Rack Hard Disk bays? -- David Purton [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Psalm 130:3 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 19:23, David Purton wrote: > Our ancient tape drive died and we need to get a new backup system > happening. > > What are debian users recommendations for backups? > > We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with > daily differentials inbetween. Note that with modern, high-speed drives, you'll be able to do full backups every night, to one tape/night. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Why is cyber-crime not being effectively controlled? What is fuelling the rampancy? * Parental apathy & the public education system http://www.linuxsecurity.com/feature_stories/feature_story- 150.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 06:00, Haines Brown wrote: > You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should > be tape. > > I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is > the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not > run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 > DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer > having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably > stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external > drive can be moved to any machine. The one difference is that you used dedicated software, whereas on "Unix", he'd just be writing a gzipped tar ball onto an ANSI formatted tape that any other "Unix", OpenVMS or mainframe with the same hardware can read. The big knock against disks as backup is that he'd need 14(!!) disk drives (one for each night, so that if "last night's disk" dies, he can go to the previous night's tape, and recover most of the data). -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA The difference between drunken sailors and Congressmen is that drunken sailors spend their own money. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
David Purton wrote: On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 07:00:19AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. Anything to avoid regarding linux with these beasts? Yes. See http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/devices.php under the mass storage section. Recently I got myself an Adaptec USB2.0 card that works with kernel 2.4.22 (didn't try earlier kernels), and a Samsung 120G disk in an IceCube enclosure. Transfer rates are not what is being touted but it's good enough for me. The Samsung disk doesn't get too hot. How reliable all that is I cannot tell yet after a few weeks. The web site tells of hickups with certain hardware. I occasionally shift only 1 or 2 GB to and from the disk. Repeated mounts/unmounts sometimes confuse the USB hotplug system. hdparm -tT /dev/sda1 /dev/sda1: Timing buffer-cache reads: 584 MB in 2.00 seconds = 292.00 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 32 MB in 3.12 seconds = 10.26 MB/sec Regards, Andreas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 07:00:19AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: > You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should > be tape. > > I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is > the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not > run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 > DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer > having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably > stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external > drive can be moved to any machine. > mmm - thanks - I'll look into it. Tap is starting to look like a fairly ugly option in terms of cost, but two or three usb drives might indeed be a good option. Anything to avoid regarding linux with these beasts? -- David Purton [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Psalm 130:3 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
You say you want a "new backup system," and did not specify it should be tape. I recommend that you consider an external USB drive for backups. It is the cheapest method you could use in terms of cost/mb, and does not run the danger of proprietary standards (I've got a bunch of old OS/2 DAT tapes I'd like to access, but that will not be easy, no longer having the commercial software, etc.). With tapes, you are probably stuck using the one machine that has the drive, while an external drive can be moved to any machine. Haines Brown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 19:46, David Purton wrote: > On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 05:33:25PM -0800, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Purton wrote: > > > > > Our ancient tape drive died and we need to get a new backup system > > > happening. > > > > > > What are debian users recommendations for backups? > > > > > > We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with > > > daily differentials inbetween. > > > > get a similar/identical tape drive ... so all your old archives > > still is readable ... and media is recyclable and usable > > This would be nice, but my brief reseach so far suggests that there is > not much around now that will write to HP Colorado 5GB tapes... > > We don't use tape for long term storage - we keep about a fortnights > worth of files on tape. Used DLT drives with a 20/40GB capacity are cheap on Ebay, and all the big media manufactures make the tapes (CompacTape IV), since they are the native tapes on current 40/80GB drives. Our shop has used DLT drives for more than a decade, and have been impressed with their durability, speed, etc. Note, though, that whereas that 5GB Travan drive probably plugged into the floppy drive cable, all other drives is SCSI based. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA "Adventure is a sign of incompetence" Stephanson, great polar explorer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations -easier
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Purton wrote: > > > What are debian users recommendations for backups? ... > > > We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with > > > daily differentials inbetween. > > > > get a similar/identical tape drive ... so all your old archives > > still is readable ... and media is recyclable and usable > > This would be nice, but my brief reseach so far suggests that there is > not much around now that will write to HP Colorado 5GB tapes... > > We don't use tape for long term storage - we keep about a fortnights > worth of files on tape. that makes things tons easier... - get any (DLT) tape drive with the desired capacity ( preferably one that obeys "eject /dev/tape" so ( the tape cannot be overwritten if somebody forgets to change it - eject tape should be the last thing the tape backup does - depending on your budget, that could be anywhere from $200 tape drives to $5,000 drives for roughly the same order of magnitude capacities - exabyte drives are probably better - i'd get 2 cheaper tape drives instead of one expensive one .. even $10,000 tape drives will find its way back home ( to the repair shop ) regularly at the wrong time - my "tape backups" consists of "a handful of big disks (250GBeac) for 1TB backup onto one 1u shelf " - or lots of itty bitty left spaces spread across the world c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
on Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 11:53:54AM +1030, David Purton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Our ancient tape drive died and we need to get a new backup system > happening. > > What are debian users recommendations for backups? > > We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with > daily differentials inbetween. I'd reccommend DDS or AIT. Your Colorado backup (referenced in a later post) is junk. Pricing information can be obtained at eBay, NextTag, Froogle, or Pricewatch: http://www.ebay.com/ http://www.nextag.com/ http://froogle.google.com/froogle http://www.pricewatch.com/ More info: http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/backups.html Peace. -- Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Of the top 24 industrialized nations, only Turkey has the government covering a smaller percentage of medical costs than the USA. - Laurie Garret, _Betrayal of Trust_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Purton wrote: > Our ancient tape drive died and we need to get a new backup system > happening. > > What are debian users recommendations for backups? > > We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with > daily differentials inbetween. get a similar/identical tape drive ... so all your old archives still is readable ... and media is recyclable and usable if you get a new (different) tape drive a) you will also need new tapes b) all your old tapes are kapputtt - you cannot freely move different tape media around onto different tape drives start looking at used "tape drive stores" and your equivalent of ebay c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT Tape backup recomendations
On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 05:33:25PM -0800, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Purton wrote: > > > Our ancient tape drive died and we need to get a new backup system > > happening. > > > > What are debian users recommendations for backups? > > > > We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with > > daily differentials inbetween. > > get a similar/identical tape drive ... so all your old archives > still is readable ... and media is recyclable and usable This would be nice, but my brief reseach so far suggests that there is not much around now that will write to HP Colorado 5GB tapes... We don't use tape for long term storage - we keep about a fortnights worth of files on tape. dc -- David Purton [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Psalm 130:3 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
OT Tape backup recomendations
Our ancient tape drive died and we need to get a new backup system happening. What are debian users recommendations for backups? We are a small business and back up about 15GB on a weekly basis, with daily differentials inbetween. cheers dc -- David Purton [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Psalm 130:3 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Which Tape Backup package, mt-st?, etc.
On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 01:20, Doug MacFarlane wrote: > > I have confirmed it's working (via tar, then a restore to a different location, > and a file-compare). > > What packages do you folks recommend for a single-system? There are about > a half-dozen listed - taper, amanda, afbackup, tapir, kbackup, star, and > tob. Although I use afbackup for my network, I seem to remember that kbackup was easier to configure and maybe for a single computer it's better. > > Also, should I install the mt-st package? yep, you must have this one to be able to control the tape. > > madmac > > > -- > Doug MacFarlane > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bye -- Haim -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Which Tape Backup package, mt-st?, etc.
Team: I have a single system with 38 gb of disk that's about 1/2 full. It has a DDS-3 12/24 gb tape-backup on it. I have confirmed it's working (via tar, then a restore to a different location, and a file-compare). What packages do you folks recommend for a single-system? There are about a half-dozen listed - taper, amanda, afbackup, tapir, kbackup, star, and tob. Also, should I install the mt-st package? madmac -- Doug MacFarlane [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
On Saturday 29 June 2002 02:59 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Sat, 2002-06-29 at 02:54, Derek Gladding wrote: > > On Friday 28 June 2002 07:40 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 22:33, Derek Gladding wrote: > > > > On Thursday 27 June 2002 08:25 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > Hello list, > > > > > > > > > > I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around > > > > > 30GB in size with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there > > > > > any tool for easier multiple tape backup like this? I can > > > > > switch the tape myself. > > > > > > > > Afbackup works well for me. (DDS3 tapes / ~120G backup set). > > > > > > Do you have a "stacker", i.e. autoloader? > > > > Nope, just a plain DDS3 drive. Afbackup spits the tape out when > > it's done and if I don't give it a new one in time, it gets > > impatient and emails me to ask for a new one. > > > > I think it's supposed to support autoloaders, but have never tried > > it. > > If you can afford them, they sure are a dream: load the hopper and > go home. cron kicks off the backup in the middle of the night... No need, I work from home :) Apart from that, I use a 2xfull, 2x2xdiff pattern, switching between full sets when the diffs get bigger than a single tape, which doesn't happen often enough to cause me any great stress. - Derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
On Sat, 2002-06-29 at 02:54, Derek Gladding wrote: > On Friday 28 June 2002 07:40 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 22:33, Derek Gladding wrote: > > > On Thursday 27 June 2002 08:25 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Hello list, > > > > > > > > I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around 30GB > > > > in size with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there any tool > > > > for easier multiple tape backup like this? I can switch the tape > > > > myself. > > > > > > Afbackup works well for me. (DDS3 tapes / ~120G backup set). > > > > Do you have a "stacker", i.e. autoloader? > > Nope, just a plain DDS3 drive. Afbackup spits the tape out when it's > done and if I don't give it a new one in time, it gets impatient and > emails me to ask for a new one. > > I think it's supposed to support autoloaders, but have never tried > it. If you can afford them, they sure are a dream: load the hopper and go home. cron kicks off the backup in the middle of the night... -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | "Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea | | which could only have originated in California." | | --Edsger Dijkstra | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
On Friday 28 June 2002 07:40 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 22:33, Derek Gladding wrote: > > On Thursday 27 June 2002 08:25 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Hello list, > > > > > > I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around 30GB > > > in size with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there any tool > > > for easier multiple tape backup like this? I can switch the tape > > > myself. > > > > Afbackup works well for me. (DDS3 tapes / ~120G backup set). > > Do you have a "stacker", i.e. autoloader? Nope, just a plain DDS3 drive. Afbackup spits the tape out when it's done and if I don't give it a new one in time, it gets impatient and emails me to ask for a new one. I think it's supposed to support autoloaders, but have never tried it. - Derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
On Thu, 2002-06-27 at 22:33, Derek Gladding wrote: > On Thursday 27 June 2002 08:25 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hello list, > > > > I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around 30GB in > > size with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there any tool for > > easier multiple tape backup like this? I can switch the tape myself. > > Afbackup works well for me. (DDS3 tapes / ~120G backup set). Do you have a "stacker", i.e. autoloader? -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | "Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea | | which could only have originated in California." | | --Edsger Dijkstra | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
I had been using tar, but then found pax and really liked it. I have been using it since. Brian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
On Thursday 27 June 2002 08:25 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hello list, > > I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around 30GB in > size with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there any tool for > easier multiple tape backup like this? I can switch the tape myself. Afbackup works well for me. (DDS3 tapes / ~120G backup set). - Derek -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: multiple tape backup?
On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 11:25:56AM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hello list, > > I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around 30GB in size > with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there any tool for easier > multiple tape backup like this? I can switch the tape myself. tar has support for multi volume archives, with the -M option. See the tar manpage/infopage/doco for more info, such as how to run a custom script at each volume change. - Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
multiple tape backup?
Hello list, I am planing to backup the /home directory which is around 30GB in size with multiple DDS3 tape--each has 12GB. Is there any tool for easier multiple tape backup like this? I can switch the tape myself. -- Patrick Hsieh<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GPG public key http://pahud.net/pubkeys/pahudatezplay.gpg http://www.ezplay.tv 11:23:01 up 61 days, 21:28, 22 users, load average: 1.25, 2.00, 2.07 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:49:47PM -0500, Jamin W. Collins wrote: > I (for one) am very interested to hear what about > people experiences, recommendations (or lack thereof) concerning tape > backup software. As you may have guessed from my earlier post to the thread, I swear by amanda. (And, since then, I've doublechecked: You are definitely able to run amanda with no holding disk, but it takes a lot longer because you can only dump one fs to tape at a time vs. being able to dump multiple fses to disk in parallel.) -- When we reduce our own liberties to stop terrorism, the terrorists have already won. - reverius Innocence is no protection when governments go bad. - Tom Swiss -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
hi y jams... tape backup sw... "find | gre | tar " works best for me... ( going to tape or disks ) - tons of free backup scripts and few more commercial apps which you use depends n your budget and amount of data and backup media you use and comfoprt level of find|tar and/or cpio, dump, etc - most of what needs to be done for backups can be done in 1 lines or so ( 3-4 crontab entries ... ) # daily incremental of last 8 days find /$DIRS -mtime -8 | tar cvf /dev/tape -T- # weekly incremental of last 32 days find /$DIRS -mtime -32 | tar cvf /dev/tape -T- # montly incremental of last 90 days.. find /$DIRS -mtime -90 | tar cvf /dev/tape -T- # do a full backup however often ya like.. tar cvf /dev/tape /$DIRS -- done -- - make n-copies of it if ya paranoid - - encrypt it if ya even mroe paranoid - - ... on and on .. c ya alvin On Tue, 21 May 2002, Jamin W. Collins wrote: > On 21 May 2002 14:31:02 -0500 > "Ron Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I think we're well past the point where we must agree to > > disagree about the best way to back up enterprise databases. > > Agreed. Now, would it be possible to get back to the original topic "tape > backup software". I (for one) am very interested to hear what about > people experiences, recommendations (or lack thereof) concerning tape > backup software. I don't care much for a philisophical debate over > whether to use tapes or hard drives. I've already made the decision to > use tapes and am relatively open to hear what works and what doesn't for > others out there. > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 02:49:47PM -0500, Jamin W. Collins wrote: > On 21 May 2002 14:31:02 -0500 > "Ron Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think we're well past the point where we must agree to > > disagree about the best way to back up enterprise databases. > Agreed. Now, would it be possible to get back to the original topic "tape > backup software". I (for one) am very interested to hear what about > people experiences, recommendations (or lack thereof) concerning tape > backup software. I don't care much for a philisophical debate over > whether to use tapes or hard drives. I've already made the decision to > use tapes and am relatively open to hear what works and what doesn't for > others out there. We use Net Backup, it's not free, it's definately not cheap. It is incredibly powerful, which means there are a *lot* of options. I don't think they have a linux server. They might. We run it off an old Sun U5. We've got 2 spectradrive tape robots hooked up to it, with 4 tape drives each, and 40 tapes in each library. -- My last cigarette was roughly 29 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes ago. YHBW -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk - raided
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 10:04:49PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > hi ya petro Morning. > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Petro wrote: > > On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:10:34AM -0700, Peter Whysall wrote: > > > On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets > > > That's innovative, but impractical. > > No, it's a great idea, but you can do the same thing even more > > safely with tapes. > good point.. give um tapes most people dont have an expensive > drive sitting at home to go poking around on it > while everybody can poke around on an ide disk Wait a minute, you're not encrypting them? > > > A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? > > 10 120 gig IDE drives. > > Each with lots of electronics to fail. > yuppers... and with a tape drive.. you only fix one ?? When the electronics on a tape drive fail, you can use almost any other tape drive of the same media type to read the tape. In an emergency, you drive down to and i've never dropped at tape drive... nor disks... > - tapes get dropped because a klutz like me is swapping > out a tape w/ feeble fingers... As opposed to swaping out a drive with feeble fingers? > - i get itchy when i see people dropping stuff... Disasters happen. That's what backups are for after all. > - even worst when i see them with rubber shoes touching > memory/disks w/o antistatic Tapes aren't as delicate. > ( its hilarious when they say they got shocked... > ( and wonder why the machine stopped working... In almost 20 years of messing with computers in various capacities, including living and working in high-static environments, the only time static electricity has cause a computer I was working on to die was a lightining strike. -- My last cigarette was roughly 29 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes ago. YHBW -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On 21 May 2002 14:31:02 -0500 "Ron Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think we're well past the point where we must agree to > disagree about the best way to back up enterprise databases. Agreed. Now, would it be possible to get back to the original topic "tape backup software". I (for one) am very interested to hear what about people experiences, recommendations (or lack thereof) concerning tape backup software. I don't care much for a philisophical debate over whether to use tapes or hard drives. I've already made the decision to use tapes and am relatively open to hear what works and what doesn't for others out there. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk - raided
On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 03:05, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya ron > > > And I'll be bringing home my greater-than-terabyte-sized > > enterprise database (to poke around with it..) some time in > > the near future??? Not likely. > > it fits in a itty bitty "2u" cases... > - 2 or more of um for redundancy/reliability > > > Besides, I don't have a $3M Alpha w/ VMS & Rdb licenses > > in the back bedroom, either... > > not yet :-) Except that our data & applications are _on_ that $3M Alpha w/ VMS & Rdb licenses. > but everybody has more than a compute power equivalent of an > old cray-1 in their homes now... :-) Sure, my 1GHz Athlon-C does integer arithmetic faster than the 750MHz Alphas, but those 64-bit 66MHz PCI UW-SCSI cards pump the data through a lot faster than ATA/100 chipsets. (The 16GB cache RAM on the SAN also helps out...) I think we're well past the point where we must agree to disagree about the best way to back up enterprise databases. -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | "I have created a government of whirled peas..."| | Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, 12-May-2002, | ! CNN, Larry King Live | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk - raided
On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 01:05:46AM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > i wouldn't give "backups" to people > ( when the backups contain user passwds and > ( financial data or other sensitive stuff... Encrypt the backup, so you don't have to worry about it as much. Yeah, some folks have the passphrase, but if you accidentally leave it on the subway you don't have to worry about some random stranger making any sense of it. --Pete -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk - raided
hi ya ron > And I'll be bringing home my greater-than-terabyte-sized > enterprise database (to poke around with it..) some time in > the near future??? Not likely. it fits in a itty bitty "2u" cases... - 2 or more of um for redundancy/reliability > Besides, I don't have a $3M Alpha w/ VMS & Rdb licenses > in the back bedroom, either... not yet :-) but everybody has more than a compute power equivalent of an old cray-1 in their homes now... :-) > > > > A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? > > > > > > 10 120 gig IDE drives. > > > > > > Each with lots of electronics to fail. > > > > yuppers... and with a tape drive.. you only fix one ?? > > The likelihood that 1 of 10 mechanical devices will break > in a given timespan is far more likely than the likelyhood > of just one device breaking. yup... but when one tape drive dies.. everything waits... till one goes off and gets a new $7K tape drive... ( most people have 2 or 3 identical drives ?? i hope... - when it died at the wrong time is when we switched over the the disks-based backups .. since we got it back online within hours... the tape drive took months when one disk dies... throw it away and put in a new one... > > and i've never dropped at tape drive... nor disks... > > - tapes get dropped because a klutz like me is swapping > > out a tape w/ feeble fingers... > > To quote you: > > > > On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > > > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > > > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets > > By definition, you must pull those spindles in order to give > them to the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar. So, not only might _you_ > drop the disks, but the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar may also drop them. i wouldn't give "backups" to people ( when the backups contain user passwds and ( financial data or other sensitive stuff... - raid5 provides a built feature that no one user can have all the data if one backups only one disk-dump per tape or disk... - was meant for 2 tapes to offsite san francisco office and 2 tapes to offsite boston office and 1 tape to offsite UK office c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk - raided
On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 00:04, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > hi ya petro > > On Mon, 20 May 2002, Petro wrote: > > > On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:10:34AM -0700, Peter Whysall wrote: > > > On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets > > > > > That's innovative, but impractical. > > > > No, it's a great idea, but you can do the same thing even more > > safely with tapes. > > good point.. give um tapes most people dont have an expensive > drive sitting at home to go poking around on it > while everybody can poke around on an ide disk And I'll be bringing home my greater-than-terabyte-sized enterprise database (to poke around with it..) some time in the near future??? Not likely. Besides, I don't have a $3M Alpha w/ VMS & Rdb licenses in the back bedroom, either... > > > A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? > > > > 10 120 gig IDE drives. > > > > Each with lots of electronics to fail. > > yuppers... and with a tape drive.. you only fix one ?? The likelihood that 1 of 10 mechanical devices will break in a given timespan is far more likely than the likelyhood of just one device breaking. > and i've never dropped at tape drive... nor disks... > - tapes get dropped because a klutz like me is swapping > out a tape w/ feeble fingers... To quote you: > > > On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets By definition, you must pull those spindles in order to give them to the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar. So, not only might _you_ drop the disks, but the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar may also drop them. -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | "I have created a government of whirled peas..."| | Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, 12-May-2002, | ! CNN, Larry King Live | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk - raided
hi ya petro On Mon, 20 May 2002, Petro wrote: > On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:10:34AM -0700, Peter Whysall wrote: > > On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets > > > That's innovative, but impractical. > > No, it's a great idea, but you can do the same thing even more > safely with tapes. good point.. give um tapes most people dont have an expensive drive sitting at home to go poking around on it while everybody can poke around on an ide disk > > A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? > > 10 120 gig IDE drives. > > Each with lots of electronics to fail. yuppers... and with a tape drive.. you only fix one ?? c ya alvn and i've never dropped at tape drive... nor disks... - tapes get dropped because a klutz like me is swapping out a tape w/ feeble fingers... - i get itchy when i see people dropping stuff... - even worst when i see them with rubber shoes touching memory/disks w/o antistatic - keep them away from me please... ehehe... ( its hilarious when they say they got shocked... ( and wonder why the machine stopped working... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - disk failures
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 02:25:59AM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > hi ya > a nice picture of what causes a system to fail... disks or ??? > http://www.Linux-1U.net/Disks/Disk_Failure.gif > ( its from an IDC survey ) > ( the picture stolen/copied from > http://safersite.net/NSS15AFaultTolerantUsersStoragePowerandNetworks.htm > - but it seems they moved that url... That is completely outside my experience. I've had users nuke the operating system, but the computer didn't fail, the OS did. A fresh install and everything but the users data was peachy. Those 15 75Gig IBM drives OTOH... -- My last cigarette was roughly 28 days, 16 hours, 40 minutes ago. YHBW -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 12:10:34AM -0700, Peter Whysall wrote: > On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets > That's innovative, but impractical. No, it's a great idea, but you can do the same thing even more safely with tapes. > A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? 10 120 gig IDE drives. Each with lots of electronics to fail. -- My last cigarette was roughly 28 days, 16 hours, 37 minutes ago. YHBW -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 05:24:55PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > 160GB ide disks is $150-$200 range... cheap... > - 1Terabyte of backup in one 1u chassis.. no problem... > and i do compressed backups of up to 3 or 6 months... dpeending > on diskspace they willing ot buy and user data Pull 10 160GB disks out of your array to swap them for another set (offline DR archive). Drop one disk on a concrete floor. Pull 20 tapes out of the drive. Drop one tape on the floor. Which has a better chance of surviving? This list has gone round and round on this at least twice in the last 4 months. When you're backing up terabytes, archiving for legal reasons, etc. modern tapes are more than adequite, and less expensive (in real terms) than drives. -- My last cigarette was roughly 28 days, 16 hours, 32 minutes ago. YHBW -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 03:52:54PM -0500, Jamin W. Collins wrote: > Doesn't Amanda require a "backup" partition? Amanda likes to have holding disks to work from, but I don't think you're absolutely required to have one. > Doesn't the partition also > need to be the size of your largest backup target? Definitely not. Been there, done that - I inherited an amanda server that was backing up ~15G/day with a 7G holding disk and the largest backup target was 9G. (I added a 30G drive just for holding space shortly after discovering this...) It stops bothering the backup clients a lot quicker if the entire run fits into the holding disk (since write-to-disk is faster than write-to-tape), but it's also capable of backing up directly to tape. What you're probably thinking of is amanda's inability to allow a single target to span multiple tapes. If a target is larger than your tapes (after compression), amanda isn't currently able to back it up. That's one of the things currently being worked on and I think a patch may already exist, but it's not considered release- quality yet. -- When we reduce our own liberties to stop terrorism, the terrorists have already won. - reverius Innocence is no protection when governments go bad. - Tom Swiss -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - disk failures
hi ya a nice picture of what causes a system to fail... disks or ??? http://www.Linux-1U.net/Disks/Disk_Failure.gif ( its from an IDC survey ) ( the picture stolen/copied from http://safersite.net/NSS15AFaultTolerantUsersStoragePowerandNetworks.htm - but it seems they moved that url... c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
hi ya peter > > - a tape is 40 - 80GB same as disks ... nowdays disks is > > always slightly higher capacity > > You're behind the curve. AIT3 and SDLT offer capacities of ~200GB per > tape. yuppers gave up when tapes was 80GB and the mammoth tape drives was $7K each... and each tape was $80 - $100 range... - got years of that stuff... at the old place... > > Tape is still cheaper per gigabyte. Can you get a 220GB disk for ~90 > quid? cost of media is one thing... add in the additional costs for: - tape drive - time spent to read the tape - time spent to find a particular file the user lost - - time spent to simulate a crashed disk and replace with a new one and restore - i still put my bet on disks > > You'll look back with regret when your disk-based backup system eats > itself alive. Hard disks fail. Tapes might fail too, but they fail less > often, and have less impact on the overall system when they do. Easier > to replace, easier to obtain. If push comes to shove, I can get tapes > from the local Staples. had more tape failures than disks... - usually because they lost the disk.. and expect me to restore from their tapes which was usually also bad... - at tht point its a real easy sale to convert from high maintenance/daily tapes... to automated disk backups - pull any drive out at anyime to simulate a disk crash and try to restore from tape and also from disk... > > > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets > > That's innovative, but impractical. mkes fure a good research project > > - majority of stufff i do is across the ocean ... > > - > > - can't go around changing tapes... :-) > > - and even if the tapes was in my office... i still wont use it > > - as we all step away on weeekends and holidays and sick etc... > > - > > - i say a tape based backup fails the day somebody forgot > > - to change the tape... you lost yesterdays data > > - > > Depends. If you run two tape drives and have a tape jockey onsite to > swap the tapes, you're OK. had 3 tape drives running tyoo much headaches... i would never ever bet "my backups is working properly" on a "tape jockey" at a colo or other facilities ... too paranoid to take the heat for why backups is not working ... when their disk crashes.. - never had a disk-based backup fail... - so far been lucky ?? - lots of tape-based backups fail for various reason... - usually cause somebody ( not me ) didnt calen the tape or rotate the tapes - i cant use tapes... i am NOT onsite and will NOT gamble that somebody else did their tape rotation job > > - out here... 50-100GB of data to play with per day per user ... > > - most of the generated outputs is not backed up > > since its easily regenerated by the spice programs... > > > > - when doing full chip layouts... we can get into 10's Terabytes > > of data... most of which i claim is worthless > > and constantly changing .. no pointto backup other than for "archive" > > and the lawyers to have a running history... > > A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? same number of tapes or disks - > > Believe me when I say that you're in a minority amongst sysadmins on > this topic. no problem. like being different - better in some things... worst in others... - i like being able to sleep all day too while they are working ( machines should just run flawlessly... -- best to reularly test the backup system... wether tape or disks... and pretend tha the disk really did crash and spend the time/effort and phone/calls ...mad people... to recover from the backups... -- -- in prodcution environment... where it counts... -- c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 06:22, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya ron > > On 19 May 2002, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > You and I must think on different scales... > > think its similar scales.. > - different ways to skin the cat... > > - a tape is 40 - 80GB same as disks ... nowdays disks is > always slightly higher capacity You're behind the curve. AIT3 and SDLT offer capacities of ~200GB per tape. > - there was a time when a single tape had more capacity than > a single disk... and better price for disk$$$/MB vs tape$$$/MB > >- in the old days... whan disks were expensive per GByte > and tapes were comparably cheaper tapes would be better Tape is still cheaper per gigabyte. Can you get a 220GB disk for ~90 quid? > > - any argument for number of disks is equally applicable > to number of tapes > - tape library vs raid ... > ( same issue here too ) > > - we had/have a bunch of Exabyte Magnum(?) drives ( $8K each ) > a few years ago ... when 20GB disks was just coming out... > but the tqpes was too slow... even with tar + buffer ... > tape cant keep up for backing up xxxGB of data > - went to disks for backup and never looked back since... You'll look back with regret when your disk-based backup system eats itself alive. Hard disks fail. Tapes might fail too, but they fail less often, and have less impact on the overall system when they do. Easier to replace, easier to obtain. If push comes to shove, I can get tapes from the local Staples. > those tapes was good for 80GB or so... > and we had 40 users at 20GB each... > > - i require 3 independent sources of backups 2 is minimum > > - > - offsite is not important as much as in different buildings > - > - if a build burns down in a fire... that's what monthly > backup is for take the disk and store it some place else ... > > --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk > --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user > --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets That's innovative, but impractical. > - majority of stufff i do is across the ocean ... > - > - can't go around changing tapes... :-) > - and even if the tapes was in my office... i still wont use it > - as we all step away on weeekends and holidays and sick etc... > - > - i say a tape based backup fails the day somebody forgot > - to change the tape... you lost yesterdays data > - Depends. If you run two tape drives and have a tape jockey onsite to swap the tapes, you're OK. > - out here... 50-100GB of data to play with per day per user ... > - most of the generated outputs is not backed up > since its easily regenerated by the spice programs... > > - when doing full chip layouts... we can get into 10's Terabytes > of data... most of which i claim is worthless > and constantly changing .. no pointto backup other than for "archive" > and the lawyers to have a running history... A terabyte is 10 AIT-3 tapes. How many disks is it? > - what cannot be lost is the schematics and simulation parameters > > all that (incremental) data is saved over 3-6 month periods... > - each user pc has about 160GB of disks > > - wondering how to backup data/service on an OC3 line now... > ( next project ... > > have fun "backing it up"... > c ya > alvin Believe me when I say that you're in a minority amongst sysadmins on this topic. > > > 30 days worth of the 155GB database that I manage, plus > > the 40GB of flat files == 5.8TB > > > > 30 days worth of the 80GB database that I manage, plus > > the 20GB of flat files == 2.4TB > > > > 30 days of the 1.5TB disk space that my co-worker manages > > plus 200GB of flat files == 57TB. > > > > That's 65.5GB of storage, or 546 120GB ATA disks. The > > cabinets, controllers & power supplies needed to run all > > those disks is _really_ expensive. (If you want them to > > be RAID5 secure, add, oh, 15% more disks, so that's 628 > > spindles!!) Yes. These are the kinds of numbers I came up with when contemplating a disk-based backup system for the system I work on which entails backing up circa 100GB a night. I need to keep long-term backups for a year, too. > > Last, but _certainly_ not least: > > If the machine gets destroyed (fire, etc), there goes a > > huge business. Can't happen? I managed an 80GB OLTP > > database in the WTC... > > > > There is NO WAY I'd allow an important production system > > without off-site tape storage. Werd to that, Ron. Peter. -- Peter Whysall [EMAIL PROTECTED] The TLD in my email address is sdrawkcab. Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 sid -- kernel 2.4.18 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
hi ya ron On 19 May 2002, Ron Johnson wrote: > You and I must think on different scales... think its similar scales.. - different ways to skin the cat... - a tape is 40 - 80GB same as disks ... nowdays disks is always slightly higher capacity - there was a time when a single tape had more capacity than a single disk... and better price for disk$$$/MB vs tape$$$/MB - in the old days... whan disks were expensive per GByte and tapes were comparably cheaper tapes would be better - any argument for number of disks is equally applicable to number of tapes - tape library vs raid ... ( same issue here too ) - we had/have a bunch of Exabyte Magnum(?) drives ( $8K each ) a few years ago ... when 20GB disks was just coming out... but the tqpes was too slow... even with tar + buffer ... tape cant keep up for backing up xxxGB of data - went to disks for backup and never looked back since... those tapes was good for 80GB or so... and we had 40 users at 20GB each... - i require 3 independent sources of backups 2 is minimum - - offsite is not important as much as in different buildings - - if a build burns down in a fire... that's what monthly backup is for take the disk and store it some place else ... --- if the disks is raid5'd ... give one disk --- to each of the CEO/CFO/CTO/foo/bar and no one user --- has all the data... no way for stealing corp secrets - majority of stufff i do is across the ocean ... - - can't go around changing tapes... :-) - and even if the tapes was in my office... i still wont use it - as we all step away on weeekends and holidays and sick etc... - - i say a tape based backup fails the day somebody forgot - to change the tape... you lost yesterdays data - - out here... 50-100GB of data to play with per day per user ... - most of the generated outputs is not backed up since its easily regenerated by the spice programs... - when doing full chip layouts... we can get into 10's Terabytes of data... most of which i claim is worthless and constantly changing .. no pointto backup other than for "archive" and the lawyers to have a running history... - what cannot be lost is the schematics and simulation parameters all that (incremental) data is saved over 3-6 month periods... - each user pc has about 160GB of disks - wondering how to backup data/service on an OC3 line now... ( next project ... have fun "backing it up"... c ya alvin > 30 days worth of the 155GB database that I manage, plus > the 40GB of flat files == 5.8TB > > 30 days worth of the 80GB database that I manage, plus > the 20GB of flat files == 2.4TB > > 30 days of the 1.5TB disk space that my co-worker manages > plus 200GB of flat files == 57TB. > > That's 65.5GB of storage, or 546 120GB ATA disks. The > cabinets, controllers & power supplies needed to run all > those disks is _really_ expensive. (If you want them to > be RAID5 secure, add, oh, 15% more disks, so that's 628 > spindles!!) > > Last, but _certainly_ not least: > If the machine gets destroyed (fire, etc), there goes a > huge business. Can't happen? I managed an 80GB OLTP > database in the WTC... > > There is NO WAY I'd allow an important production system > without off-site tape storage. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
You and I must think on different scales... 30 days worth of the 155GB database that I manage, plus the 40GB of flat files == 5.8TB 30 days worth of the 80GB database that I manage, plus the 20GB of flat files == 2.4TB 30 days of the 1.5TB disk space that my co-worker manages plus 200GB of flat files == 57TB. That's 65.5GB of storage, or 546 120GB ATA disks. The cabinets, controllers & power supplies needed to run all those disks is _really_ expensive. (If you want them to be RAID5 secure, add, oh, 15% more disks, so that's 628 spindles!!) Last, but _certainly_ not least: If the machine gets destroyed (fire, etc), there goes a huge business. Can't happen? I managed an 80GB OLTP database in the WTC... There is NO WAY I'd allow an important production system without off-site tape storage. On Sun, 2002-05-19 at 19:24, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya ron > > > [snip] > > > - tons of problems with tapes for "large amount of data"... > > > > You get what you pay for. At work, we use DLTs, and _never_ > > have problems, as long as we run the cleaning tape weekly. > > Part of the reason is that DLT drives are made well, and another > > reason is that these drives have hardware ECC. > > > tapes are less reliable than disks... > > > and i dont ever wanna remove tapes... some moron always forgets > to change the tape etc... or clean the head later > > > > - i prefer disks for backups... fast, easy, cheap and > > > (offline) live backups > > > > On a production box of any size, that is totally impractical. > > Tapes are, by their nature, removable, whereas, IDE disks are > > not. SCSI disks are, but a 72GB disk is _way_ expensive. > > So, on a box the size we use at work, in order to have a month > > of backups, you'd need 90 72GB SCSI disks. No fscking way!! > > 90 DLT4 tapes, on the other hand, is expensive, but affordable. > > precisely why tapes are impractical > - but there are tons of data on existing disks ... > > > 160GB ide disks is $150-$200 range... cheap... > - 1Terabyte of backup in one 1u chassis.. no problem... > and i do compressed backups of up to 3 or 6 months... dpeending > on diskspace they willing ot buy and user data > > IDE disks are ideal for backups... its already up and running > and is live... within a few minute if one does 1:1 mirror backups... > or goes live as soon as tar uncompresses on disks ... > ( no fussing on where is the tape.. and which tape... > > - lost data need to be recovered and online within the hour... > > - realtime transaction based data is a separate issue... > ( and they have the $$$ too ..hopefully ... -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | "I have created a government of whirled peas..."| | Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, 12-May-2002, | ! CNN, Larry King Live | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software - tape vs disk
hi ya ron > [snip] > > - tons of problems with tapes for "large amount of data"... > > You get what you pay for. At work, we use DLTs, and _never_ > have problems, as long as we run the cleaning tape weekly. > Part of the reason is that DLT drives are made well, and another > reason is that these drives have hardware ECC. tapes are less reliable than disks... and i dont ever wanna remove tapes... some moron always forgets to change the tape etc... or clean the head later > > - i prefer disks for backups... fast, easy, cheap and > > (offline) live backups > > On a production box of any size, that is totally impractical. > Tapes are, by their nature, removable, whereas, IDE disks are > not. SCSI disks are, but a 72GB disk is _way_ expensive. > So, on a box the size we use at work, in order to have a month > of backups, you'd need 90 72GB SCSI disks. No fscking way!! > 90 DLT4 tapes, on the other hand, is expensive, but affordable. precisely why tapes are impractical - but there are tons of data on existing disks ... 160GB ide disks is $150-$200 range... cheap... - 1Terabyte of backup in one 1u chassis.. no problem... and i do compressed backups of up to 3 or 6 months... dpeending on diskspace they willing ot buy and user data IDE disks are ideal for backups... its already up and running and is live... within a few minute if one does 1:1 mirror backups... or goes live as soon as tar uncompresses on disks ... ( no fussing on where is the tape.. and which tape... - lost data need to be recovered and online within the hour... - realtime transaction based data is a separate issue... ( and they have the $$$ too ..hopefully ... c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On Sun, 2002-05-19 at 18:18, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya [snip] > - tons of problems with tapes for "large amount of data"... You get what you pay for. At work, we use DLTs, and _never_ have problems, as long as we run the cleaning tape weekly. Part of the reason is that DLT drives are made well, and another reason is that these drives have hardware ECC. > - i prefer disks for backups... fast, easy, cheap and > (offline) live backups On a production box of any size, that is totally impractical. Tapes are, by their nature, removable, whereas, IDE disks are not. SCSI disks are, but a 72GB disk is _way_ expensive. So, on a box the size we use at work, in order to have a month of backups, you'd need 90 72GB SCSI disks. No fscking way!! 90 DLT4 tapes, on the other hand, is expensive, but affordable. -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | "I have created a government of whirled peas..."| | Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, 12-May-2002, | ! CNN, Larry King Live | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
hi ya i thought amanda needed "temp space for it to backup its file to go to backup" .. ie.. if you backing up 100GB of user data ... you need another 100GB of space too ... before it goes to the final backup media ( tape ? ) - 1TB in some cases of backups ... -- tar is a time tested best backup free software for backups.. - you can do anything you like with it.. no restrictions ?? make sure you can recover if one or two of the tapes is bad... or if somebody lost the tape.. or if the heads/tapes went bad one script .. for all the various backups .. ( 3-6 lines in cron ) backup.sh < -daily | -weekly | -monthly > < -full > incremental daily... tar zcvf /dev/tape `find /usr/local /var /etc /root /hom -mtime -2` - increment the counter daily, for sat == -8 days of backup incremental weekly tar zcvf /dev/tape `find /usr/local /var /etc /root /hom -mtime -30` - do additional weekly full backup if large amount of data incremental monthly tar zcvf /dev/tape `find /usr/local /var /etc /root /hom -mtime -90` - do additional monthly full backup if large amount of data c ya alvin http://www.Linux-Backup.net .. lots of free backup scripts .. backup strategy... make multiple copies - if doing to dds tapes... clean your heads weekely... - read the tapes back weekly to a virgin machine and see if all the data is readable... - tons of problems with tapes for "large amount of data"... - i prefer disks for backups... fast, easy, cheap and (offline) live backups On Sun, 19 May 2002, Jamin W. Collins wrote: > On 19 May 2002 13:58:29 -0500 > "Kirk Strauser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I'm a big fan of Amanda, which uses tar or dump to backup as many remote > > machines as you want to a central backup server. > > Doesn't Amanda require a "backup" partition? Doesn't the partition also > need to be the size of your largest backup target? This extra space > requirement always turned me off of Amanda. > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On 19 May 2002 13:58:29 -0500 "Kirk Strauser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm a big fan of Amanda, which uses tar or dump to backup as many remote > machines as you want to a central backup server. Doesn't Amanda require a "backup" partition? Doesn't the partition also need to be the size of your largest backup target? This extra space requirement always turned me off of Amanda. -- Jamin W. Collins -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
At this link you have alternatives described : http://www-105.ibm.com/developerworks/education.nsf/ linux-onlinecourse-bytitle/0FB4D16BD2C3E83E86256AA2005244D1?OpenDocument Florentin. On Sun, 19 May 2002, Michael Madden wrote : » Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 10:26:26 -0500 » From: Michael Madden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> » To: debian-user@lists.debian.org » Subject: Recommended tape backup software » Resent-Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 10:32:43 -0700 » Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org » » Which tape backup software is considered the best? I not really » considering commericial products, but I'd like to stick to one of the » following: dump, tar, cpio, pax » » I will be backing up ext2 and ext3 filesystems to a DDS4 tape drive » on the local machine. Is any of the prementioned backup utilities » considered superior? » » Thanks, » Mike » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
At 2002-05-19T15:26:26Z, Michael Madden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Which tape backup software is considered the best? I not really > considering commericial products, but I'd like to stick to one of the > following: dump, tar, cpio, pax I'm a big fan of Amanda, which uses tar or dump to backup as many remote machines as you want to a central backup server. I'm currently using it to backup a FreeBSD server, two Linux workstations, a Windows2000 desktop, and an OpenBSD machine 3 states away. Oh, and it's free, and you can do bare-metal recovery from its backup tapes using a boot floppy and tar or restore as appropriate. -- Kirk Strauser -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Recommended tape backup software
On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:26:26AM -0500, Michael Madden wrote: > Which tape backup software is considered the best? I not really > considering commericial products, but I'd like to stick to one of the > following: dump, tar, cpio, pax > > I will be backing up ext2 and ext3 filesystems to a DDS4 tape drive > on the local machine. Is any of the prementioned backup utilities > considered superior? I heard very convincing argument for afio by Manoj. http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tips.en.html#s8.3 8.3.6 afio Afio is a better way of dealing with cpio-format archives. It is generally faster than cpio, provides more diverse magnetic tape options and deals somewhat gracefully with input data corruption. It deals somewhat gracefully with input data corruption. Supports multi-volume archives during interactive operation. Afio can make compressed archives that are much safer than compressed tar or cpio archives. Afio is best used as an `archive engine' in a backup script. -- ~\^o^/~~~ ~\^.^/~~~ ~\^*^/~~~ ~\^_^/~~~ ~\^+^/~~~ ~\^:^/~~~ ~\^v^/~~~ + Osamu Aoki @ Cupertino CA USA See "User's Guide": http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/users-guide/ See "Debian reference": http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ "Debian reference" Project at: http://qref.sf.net I welcome your constructive criticisms and corrections. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Recommended tape backup software
Which tape backup software is considered the best? I not really considering commericial products, but I'd like to stick to one of the following: dump, tar, cpio, pax I will be backing up ext2 and ext3 filesystems to a DDS4 tape drive on the local machine. Is any of the prementioned backup utilities considered superior? Thanks, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: tape backup...
on Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:01:01AM -0500, Alexander Wallace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Hello there! I have a 2 gb dat drive and I would like to backup my server > periodicaly. It works, it's /dev/st0... I know I can use mt to do stuff > with the drive and tar to backup stuff... But is there a better way??? Both are portable and work fine. For more info: http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/backups.html Peace. -- Karsten M. Selfhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html pgphDZnzeGhy2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: tape backup...
I'll check it out! Thanks a lot! On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Kurt Lieber wrote: > Not a direct answer to your question, but check out > http://www.linux-backup.net. > > They have some great linux backup resources there including several example > backup scripts. > > --kurt > On Wednesday 24 October 2001 08:01, Alexander Wallace wrote: > > Hello there! I have a 2 gb dat drive and I would like to backup my server > > periodicaly. It works, it's /dev/st0... I know I can use mt to do stuff > > with the drive and tar to backup stuff... But is there a better way??? > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
Re: tape backup...
Kurt Lieber said: > Not a direct answer to your question, but check out > http://www.linux-backup.net. > > They have some great linux backup resources there including several example > backup scripts. > > --kurt > On Wednesday 24 October 2001 08:01, Alexander Wallace wrote: >> Hello there! I have a 2 gb dat drive and I would like to backup my server >> periodicaly. It works, it's /dev/st0... I know I can use mt to do stuff >> with the drive and tar to backup stuff... But is there a better way??? Yes. Dump (http://dump.sf.net). Has all the features you'd expect (or at least that I would. It is a standard (or at least common) *NIX tool. It is very stable, but is active in the sense that bugs get fixed when the are found. Great support on the mailing list. Use the non-rewinding device (i.e. /dev/nst0) when dumping more than one filesystem. (Everyone asks this) -Peter
Re: tape backup...
On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 10:01:01AM -0500, Alexander Wallace wrote: > Hello there! I have a 2 gb dat drive and I would like to backup my server > periodicaly. It works, it's /dev/st0... I know I can use mt to do stuff > with the drive and tar to backup stuff... But is there a better way??? There are two common tools: dump/restore (apt-get install dump) or AMANDA (apt-get install amanda). Amanda is probably more than you need; it is most useful when you have a lot of machines that you need to back up over the network. It will certainly work on a single host, but dump and restore will probably be easier to manage. noah -- ___ | Web: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/ | PGP Public Key: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/mail.html pgprKUcGWsKqD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: tape backup...
Not a direct answer to your question, but check out http://www.linux-backup.net. They have some great linux backup resources there including several example backup scripts. --kurt On Wednesday 24 October 2001 08:01, Alexander Wallace wrote: > Hello there! I have a 2 gb dat drive and I would like to backup my server > periodicaly. It works, it's /dev/st0... I know I can use mt to do stuff > with the drive and tar to backup stuff... But is there a better way???
tape backup...
Hello there! I have a 2 gb dat drive and I would like to backup my server periodicaly. It works, it's /dev/st0... I know I can use mt to do stuff with the drive and tar to backup stuff... But is there a better way??? Thanks!
Re: Tape backup software
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:59:48AM +0100, Stephen J . Thompson wrote: > > Can anyone recomend some tape backup software for a DAT drive? I need > software that can allow backups to span multiple tapes. You want amanda. It's spread across a few packages in Debian: amanda-common, amanda-client, and amanda-server. In addition to dealing with multiple volumes, it can be made to deal with multiple hosts. Configuration can be a bitch, and I'm not sure what the current status is regarding its security. It used to be based on .rhosts, and didn't use any kind of crypto or reliable authentication. noah -- ___ | Web: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/ | PGP Public Key: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/mail.html pgpVnltN1fLyM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tape backup software
on Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:59:48AM +0100, Stephen J. Thompson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: RIPEMD160 > > Hello all, > > Can anyone recomend some tape backup software for a DAT drive? I need > software that can allow backups to span multiple tapes. See: http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/backups.html My own recommendation is KISS. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? There is no K5 cabal http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ http://www.kuro5hin.org Are these opinions my employer's? Hah! I don't believe them myself! pgpocy6G7BmuV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tape backup software
Stephen J.Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Can anyone recomend some tape backup software for a DAT drive? I need > software that can allow backups to span multiple tapes. Well, the obvious answer is tar (has a --multi-volume option). -- Leonard Stiles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Tape backup software
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 Hello all, Can anyone recomend some tape backup software for a DAT drive? I need software that can allow backups to span multiple tapes. Thanks. Regards, Stephen. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQIWAwUBO1Yi9bqZwrUTrKD5FAOFcgf49jIB7Vz5ZnaVQc33hPiQ6nyNl+UainTH KB3PBTr3GmnR8acQROx5nzZEyFskyiNGcPOlrgMGsEJx8mlkUL2e8jCXlSHdvB3F SBno8KdKcpd9GvRu/CK4p3hgJiM39H6L+31Oi2TWB2/ZHjHNdwF0veKU/CQm729z m4oNbXqT0PFvLPXinVMbf33TXPp41FYyyN1s6dji+jmy0sUztHWYbYLqwBPmdH+o XutGLKnPyXJZ84omi8CoQQXvEhlrGugWJ8NGVJeyD4x0PBNdriXsXkTtL0roEEKu RUow4loNbwwcjlLOlLR1rbDaDU7d7JV9/YXAAheJ/pc9j6iy8GLpB/9c2DuYUKld yMSoMxCnHrJ4tEWfedoZckhGY65RMMN8QHQ7Hj2GtKJ1//MWTqSF5gtirW6eYrbm B4pNBB30JGYyXXsp7gfptNgkVhBgJ8nqdfSY4eK4nlyUR54EUL7+2ctrNevnoreq Z5hxc2ABRlepCNKqqH/dPjPuImQ2lCjiXuJ27ZepOunOPTAIi3J8Cr4CVv1fQgCk LEKzeddU3caTJrRRuJqkijWjxlLZSETjEHptyMZjqJyyAwUVBLjcN4GlbzTk/3uh PBR1qSL6zllP6Kgx0Kz10ACJeYOC3nhipglAAEftG+Im55IFmASLFH4VLx3i8db0 pnzDSGzgGtGc =+COP -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Tape backup
on Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:54:55AM -0800, Jason Weidman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Can someone tell me how to setup my Tandberg SCSI tape backup on my > debian box? What have you attempted, and what problems have you had to date? Is this a standard SCSI DAT tape device? If so, install the hardware, configure your SCSI termination as required. You may need to add or remove termination, see your card and hardware references for details -- often, you're OK with defaults, so try this first, then change things if you get problems. You should be able to enter SCSI setup during boot and see the device listed. You'll need SCSI tape support. If the kernel has compiled-in support, you'll see the something like following message on boot or by typing 'dmesg' after you've rebooted the system: Detected scsi tape st0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 3, lun 0 If the kernel doesn't detect the device on boot, you'll need to either load st.o as a module or compile it in. If you're running a stock kernel, it should be available: $ insmod st.o ...and confirm the kernel's found the device with 'dmesg' and/or 'lsmod'. You should then be able to confirm the tape exists: $ mt status or if that doesn't work, specify the device explicitly: $ mt status /dev/nst0 Report back with any questions or problems. -- Karsten M. Self http://www.netcom.com/~kmself Evangelist, Zelerate, Inc. http://www.zelerate.org What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? There is no K5 cabal http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/http://www.kuro5hin.org pgpB3PmWpL9UT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Tape backup
Can someone tell me how to setup my Tandberg SCSI tape backup on my debian box?
Re: Tape backup tool ?
On Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 07:43:17PM +0200, Oliver Schoenknecht wrote: > Hello everyone, > > just wanted to ask if you know any good backup programs for KDE / > Gnome that do it with my Tandberg SLR5-SCSI-streamer... I heard of > taper which is more or less a console-driven tool but am also > searching for a graphical frontend like Backup Exec and ArcServe on > Win$... Any ideas ? tar -- Karsten M. Self http://www.netcom.com/~kmself Evangelist, Opensales, Inc.http://www.opensales.org What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Debian GNU/Linux rocks! http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/K5: http://www.kuro5hin.org GPG fingerprint: F932 8B25 5FDD 2528 D595 DC61 3847 889F 55F2 B9B0 pgpvMIa7bBRqx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Tape backup tool ?
Hello everyone, just wanted to ask if you know any good backup programs for KDE / Gnome that do it with my Tandberg SLR5-SCSI-streamer... I heard of taper which is more or less a console-driven tool but am also searching for a graphical frontend like Backup Exec and ArcServe on Win$... Any ideas ? Thanks a lot for your help, Oliver -- Mit freundlichem Gruss [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oliver Schoenknecht Join us at http://www.kapa.de KOSTENLOS! Online-Auktion bei KAPA! Teilnahme unter: http://www.flohmarkt.kapa.de
Re: Tape backup software?
Thanks for everyone's input, this gives me some good places to start! Kelly dave brookshire wrote: > > On the open source side of things, I'm a big fan of Amanda. You can > find the original source and stuff at ftp://ftp.cs.umd.edu/pub/amanda, or > at http://www.amanda.org/. > > On the closed source side of things, I'm a HUGE fan of Veritas' NetBackup > product. Sadly, the current version supports Linux as a client, not a > backup master, or media server. If you've got a lot of things to backup, > I like the distributed Veritas scheme of things. It's pretty expensive, > though. > > I've used both extensively, and recommend them. > > -db > > dave brookshire > chief engineer > eAgents.com > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (703)383-6740 x120 -- -- Kelly Corbin -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- On the web @ http://www.theiqgroup.com -- The IQ Group, Inc. -- 5018 Hadley Ave. -- Overland Park, KS 66203 -- (913)-722-6700 -- Fax (913)722-7264
Re: Tape backup software?
On Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 09:04:53AM -0600, Gary Hennigan wrote: > "Andrew McRobert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > I have to say that i find that "tar" covers all bases pretty well ... > > depends what you're used to I guess. > > There's at least one issue with tar that's kept me from using it, you > don't want to use software compression with tar. Tar compresses > globally, which means that the whole of the archive is considered one > big compressed file. If something happens to the beginning of the tape > you wouldn't be able to recover any of the data on that tape. This is > in contrast to something like afio which compresses a single file at a > time and then copies it to tape. Of course if you have hardware > compression, or a lot of tapes, this may not be an issue. Bingo on HW compression. With tape archives in general, I'd advocate reliability over compression anyway. -- Karsten M. Self http://www.netcom.com/~kmself Evangelist, Opensales, Inc.http://www.opensales.org What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Debian GNU/Linux rocks! http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/K5: http://www.kuro5hin.org GPG fingerprint: F932 8B25 5FDD 2528 D595 DC61 3847 889F 55F2 B9B0 pgpwlGgyjW4KX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tape backup software?
>>>>> "Kelly" == Kelly Corbin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Kelly> Has anyone had much experience w/ tape backup in Linux? I am Kelly> looking for tape backup software and was wondering if anyone Kelly> knew which was the "best". Any input would be appreciated. It Kelly> would be for an ATAPI tape backup drive. THANKS! Lots of other people already wrote about the software. I'll only warn about ATAPI. I could not get my drive (HP/Colorado 5000) to work reliably. It would seem to work for a while but then start failing mysteriously in the middle of a tape, always nearly at the same spot (and the tapes were OK, I'm sure of it). I got the source for the last version of the driver and compiled it, it didn't help. Then I bought the cheapest SCSI drive I could find and it works perfectly. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. In his own soul a man bears the source from which he draws all his sorrows and his joys. Sophocles.
Re: Tape backup software?
On 25 Jul 2000, Riku Saikkonen wrote: > Has anyone tried recovering damaged .tar.bz2 files? Any success / > failure? Hi, guys. Here's what I did: # cd /tmp # tail -c 1048576 /dev/hda > t.bulk.o # cat t.bulk.o | bzip2 -1 > t.bulk.bz2 # echo "Damage string to insert before actual bz2 image" > tmp.1 # cat tmp.1 t.bulk.bz2 > t.bulk.dmg.bz2 # bunzip2 -k t.bulk.dmg.bz2 bunzip2: t.bulk.dmg.bz2 is not a bzip2 file. # bzip2 -vvt t.bulk.dmg.bz2 t.bulk.dmg.bz2: bad magic number (file not created by bzip2) You can use the `bzip2recover' program to attempt to recover data from undamaged sections of corrupted files. # bzip2recover t.bulk.dmg.bz2 bzip2recover: searching for block boundaries ... block 1 runs from 464 to 305416 block 2 runs from 305465 to 698960 block 3 runs from 699009 to 1083281 block 4 runs from 1083330 to 1398097 block 5 runs from 1398146 to 1846240 block 6 runs from 1846289 to 2325383 block 7 runs from 2325432 to 2584085 block 8 runs from 2584134 to 2763608 block 9 runs from 2763657 to 3217006 block 10 runs from 3217055 to 3483161 bzip2recover: splitting into blocks writing block 1 to `rec0001t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 2 to `rec0002t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 3 to `rec0003t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 4 to `rec0004t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 5 to `rec0005t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 6 to `rec0006t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 7 to `rec0007t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 8 to `rec0008t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 9 to `rec0009t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... writing block 10 to `rec0010t.bulk.dmg.bz2' ... bzip2recover: finished # bzip2 -vvt rec[0-9]*t.bulk.dmg.bz2 rec0001t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0002t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0003t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0004t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0005t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0006t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0007t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0008t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0009t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok rec0010t.bulk.dmg.bz2: [1: huff+mtf rt+rld] ok # bunzip2 -c rec[0-9]*t.bulk.dmg.bz2 > t.bulk.dmg # diff -u t.bulk.o t.bulk.dmg I also tried "joe"-ing the bz2 file and recovering. It worked as described in the manual page. (The block I "edited" was lost) Hope you are happy now, Pavel
Re: Tape backup software?
"Gary Hennigan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Has anyone tried recovering damaged .tar.bz2 files? Any success / > > failure? I'd also like to know about this. > > (By the way, there is also afio, which is a command-line tool like tar > > but compresses one file at a time. The format, of course, isn't > > compatible with tar, and afio isn't as widely available on rescue > > disks, other Unices, and such.) Using it here. No problems yet, though it would be nice to have a "self-booting, fully automatic recovery solution." I mean, one that's *free*. > I've also used "dump" on a lot of Unix systems. Unfortunately the last > time I tried the GNU/Linux version it wouldn't back up FAT partitions > and so wasn't suited to my needs. Dump on Linux is specific to the ext2 filesystem. :-( I'd try it, but I'm using reiserfs on one partition. This came over the reiserfs mailing list a couple times in the last few weeks. It fits nicely into this topic: http://reality.sgi.com/zwicky_neu/testdump.doc.html Jesse -- For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. http://members.home.net/jmjacobsen1/glc/
Re: Tape backup software?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Riku Saikkonen) writes: > "Gary Hennigan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >There's at least one issue with tar that's kept me from using it, you > >don't want to use software compression with tar. Tar compresses > >globally, which means that the whole of the archive is considered one > >big compressed file. If something happens to the beginning of the tape > >you wouldn't be able to recover any of the data on that tape. This is > > This depends on what you compress with. Gzip can't recover if there is > an error, but the manual page of bzip2 says that it "may" be able to > recover everything but a 900 Kb block around the error. (The block > size 900 Kb seems to be configurable via a command-line option to the > compressor.) > > Has anyone tried recovering damaged .tar.bz2 files? Any success / > failure? > > > (By the way, there is also afio, which is a command-line tool like tar > but compresses one file at a time. The format, of course, isn't > compatible with tar, and afio isn't as widely available on rescue > disks, other Unices, and such.) Which was mentioned in my original post, and conveniently snipped from what you copied in to your post. ;) Personally I like afbackup. Not too difficult to configure, and once installed you can almost totally forget about it. It also has a file-at-a-time compression scheme so my old 4mm, sans hardware compression, is more usable. Of course I have a small LAN in my home and afbackup is a client-server system well suited to working on a LAN. The trouble to set it up may not be worth it for a stand-alone system. The drawback is that afbackup might not be as portable as even afio and might not fit on a rescue floppy. Neither of which is an issue for me since I use a CD-R and a boot floppy for my rescue needs and I'd have no need to restore the backed up data from my home PC's to an outside system. I've also used "dump" on a lot of Unix systems. Unfortunately the last time I tried the GNU/Linux version it wouldn't back up FAT partitions and so wasn't suited to my needs. Gary
Re: Tape backup software?
"Gary Hennigan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >There's at least one issue with tar that's kept me from using it, you >don't want to use software compression with tar. Tar compresses >globally, which means that the whole of the archive is considered one >big compressed file. If something happens to the beginning of the tape >you wouldn't be able to recover any of the data on that tape. This is This depends on what you compress with. Gzip can't recover if there is an error, but the manual page of bzip2 says that it "may" be able to recover everything but a 900 Kb block around the error. (The block size 900 Kb seems to be configurable via a command-line option to the compressor.) Has anyone tried recovering damaged .tar.bz2 files? Any success / failure? (By the way, there is also afio, which is a command-line tool like tar but compresses one file at a time. The format, of course, isn't compatible with tar, and afio isn't as widely available on rescue disks, other Unices, and such.) -- -=- Rjs -=- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tape backup software?
Gary Hennigan wrote: > There's at least one issue with tar that's kept me from using it, you > don't want to use software compression with tar. In addition, you should have some sort of verification that the data written to tape is actually good. I personally have used BRU for over 5 years. Very flexible, and has never failed me once. http://www.estinc.com Regards, Mark === Mark A. Bialik (414) 290-6749 Network/Security Manager [EMAIL PROTECTED] Infinity HealthCare, Inc.Mequon, WI
Re: Tape backup software?
"Andrew McRobert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have to say that i find that "tar" covers all bases pretty well ... > depends what you're used to I guess. There's at least one issue with tar that's kept me from using it, you don't want to use software compression with tar. Tar compresses globally, which means that the whole of the archive is considered one big compressed file. If something happens to the beginning of the tape you wouldn't be able to recover any of the data on that tape. This is in contrast to something like afio which compresses a single file at a time and then copies it to tape. Of course if you have hardware compression, or a lot of tapes, this may not be an issue. Gary
RE: Tape backup software?
I have to say that i find that "tar" covers all bases pretty well ... depends what you're used to I guess. tks Andrew -Original Message- From: Olaf Meeuwissen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 10:47 AM To: Krzys Majewski Cc: Kelly Corbin; Debian Userslist Subject: Re: Tape backup software? Krzys Majewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Tar! > -chris > > On Mon, 24 Jul 2000, Kelly Corbin wrote: > > > Has anyone had much experience w/ tape backup in Linux? I am looking > > for tape backup software and was wondering if anyone knew which was the > > "best". Any input would be appreciated. It would be for an ATAPI tape > > backup drive. THANKS! With Linux the device doesn't really matter in most cases, so your question boils down to what is a good backup solution. The answer depends on the situation (as always ;-). I'm using tob with afio to backup my users (all ten or so of them). Wrote some simple scripts for monthly full, weekly differential and daily incremental backups and things work just fine. The archives are written to external HD right now, but I may change to CD-RW or MO disk. You may also want to look at dump, taper, kbackup, afbackup and/or amanda. The latter two seemed a bit overkill in my situation. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen Epson Kowa Corporation, Research and Development -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null
Re: Tape backup software?
Krzys Majewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Tar! > -chris > > On Mon, 24 Jul 2000, Kelly Corbin wrote: > > > Has anyone had much experience w/ tape backup in Linux? I am looking > > for tape backup software and was wondering if anyone knew which was the > > "best". Any input would be appreciated. It would be for an ATAPI tape > > backup drive. THANKS! With Linux the device doesn't really matter in most cases, so your question boils down to what is a good backup solution. The answer depends on the situation (as always ;-). I'm using tob with afio to backup my users (all ten or so of them). Wrote some simple scripts for monthly full, weekly differential and daily incremental backups and things work just fine. The archives are written to external HD right now, but I may change to CD-RW or MO disk. You may also want to look at dump, taper, kbackup, afbackup and/or amanda. The latter two seemed a bit overkill in my situation. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen Epson Kowa Corporation, Research and Development
Re: Tape backup software?
Tar! -chris On Mon, 24 Jul 2000, Kelly Corbin wrote: > Has anyone had much experience w/ tape backup in Linux? I am looking > for tape backup software and was wondering if anyone knew which was the > "best". Any input would be appreciated. It would be for an ATAPI tape > backup drive. THANKS! > > Kelly > > > -- > > -- Kelly Corbin > -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- > Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] < /dev/null >
Re: Tape backup software?
On Mon, Jul 24, 2000 at 04:43:42PM -0500, Kelly Corbin wrote: > Has anyone had much experience w/ tape backup in Linux? I am looking > for tape backup software and was wondering if anyone knew which was the > "best". Any input would be appreciated. It would be for an ATAPI tape > backup drive. THANKS! > > Kelly On the open source side of things, I'm a big fan of Amanda. You can find the original source and stuff at ftp://ftp.cs.umd.edu/pub/amanda, or at http://www.amanda.org/. On the closed source side of things, I'm a HUGE fan of Veritas' NetBackup product. Sadly, the current version supports Linux as a client, not a backup master, or media server. If you've got a lot of things to backup, I like the distributed Veritas scheme of things. It's pretty expensive, though. I've used both extensively, and recommend them. -db dave brookshire chief engineer eAgents.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] (703)383-6740 x120
