Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Strong and Humble writes: What I want(ed) is that my system show always the same time regardless of the winter time and I yet could synchronize my system w/ NTP-servers. I know that the servers are in UTC. But the problem w/ me was that once the 'winter time' comes and I synchronize my system w/ NTP-server, I get time offset too, notwithstanding I want to escape it. Ntp and winter time are unrelated. What seemed me od with dpkg-reconfigure is that I had to choose wrong GMT offset in order system shows true time. How is your hardware (i.e., BIOS) clock set? Do you have UTC=yes in /etc/default/rcS? -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Andrew M.A. Cater amaca...@galactic.demon.co.uk пишет: cat /etc/timezone - mine reads /Etc/GMT Run dpkg-reconfigure -plow tzdata Scroll down to None of the above - and choose GMT or the appropriate offset. Done :) Thank You very much, Andrew and others who has answered my question. I also appologice for long respond as I am new to the list and its volume just overhelmed me. Yet I do not know how to setup filtering on topics at gmail.com. Well. I have done as You said, and can verify it only on october - when the 'winter time' comes again. What I want(ed) is that my system show always the same time regardless of the winter time and I yet could synchronize my system w/ NTP-servers. I know that the servers are in UTC. But the problem w/ me was that once the 'winter time' comes and I synchronize my system w/ NTP-server, I get time offset too, notwithstanding I want to escape it. So, is Your decision sufficient for my problem? Or another something should be undertaken? What seemed me od with dpkg-reconfigure is that I had to choose wrong GMT offset in order system shows true time. Again, thank You, All, for Your time and efforts in answering me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Strong and Humble wrote: What I want(ed) is that my system show always the same time regardless of the winter time You can do that, but I wonder why you would want to. I assume you live in an area where there are daylight saving time shifts, so it would be weird that your clocks show an one-hour difference from all the others. and I yet could synchronize my system w/ NTP-servers. I know that the servers are in UTC. But the problem w/ me was that once the 'winter time' comes and I synchronize my system w/ NTP-server, I get time offset too, notwithstanding I want to escape it. NTP has nothing to do with it, as it has been explained already. What you need is set your time zone. This is the only thing that changes when DST starts or ends is the GMT offset. So, is Your decision sufficient for my problem? Or another something should be undertaken? What seemed me od with dpkg-reconfigure is that I had to choose wrong GMT offset in order system shows true time. Someone mentioned there are timezones which are just GMT offsets. These should work and should not change during the year, unlike time zones for specific places. -- Drinking coffee for instant relaxation? That's like drinking alcohol for instant motor skills. -- Marc Price Eduardo M KALINOWSKI edua...@kalinowski.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Chris Jones cjns1...@gmail.com writes: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 01:09:10PM EDT, Paul E Condon wrote: But exact spot? That would imply different clock settings in different rooms of one's home. Not for me. Fancy that.. under our latitudes, when your house is a few hundred yards wide.. never mind.. I've overstayed my welcome on this here list. What does Santa Claus do? His house has all the lattitudes. What do the people at the Amundsen-Scott do? For extra credit, consider that daylight and night are each six months long. -- Johan KULLSTAM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Tuesday 31 March 2009 00:39:46 Mike Bird wrote: On Mon March 30 2009 16:12:57 Tom Furie wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument, seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances anyway. To be unpedantic and factual, what officially happens here in the UK is that we lose an hour of clock time. The clock hour between 01:00 and 02:00 does not exist that night. Clocks are deemed to move from 00:00:59 to 02:00. When we move the other way we gain an hour of clock time. Clocks move from 01:59:59 to 01:00:00. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Mon, Mar 30 2009, Paul E Condon wrote: You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie. On the other hand, I get up an hour early because I am addicted to eating. I have to mesh my activities with other folks, and they start work at a time that is an hour earlier in the summer. Grocery stores, Pharmacies, movie theaters -- things that affect my schedule -- all shift. Not to mention work hours, for those who do not work at home, have completely flexible work hours, or run their own business. -- The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n. -- John Milton Eduardo M KALINOWSKI edua...@kalinowski.com.br -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-31 06:56, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote: Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Mon, Mar 30 2009, Paul E Condon wrote: You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie. On the other hand, I get up an hour early because I am addicted to eating. I have to mesh my activities with other folks, and they start work at a time that is an hour earlier in the summer. Grocery stores, Pharmacies, movie theaters -- things that affect my schedule -- all shift. Not to mention work hours, for those who do not work at home, have completely flexible work hours, or run their own business. Even those who run their own businesses are slaves to their customers. If your open-for-business hours are inconvenient for them, they'll go somewhere else. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30 21:47, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-30_18:57:33, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more flexibility... I'm not familiar with the OpenVMS epoch, but I don't believe flexibility in a definition of a epoch can make it better. Where can I read a discussion of the value of making a epoch flexible? And what on earth does it mean to make an epoch flexible? The VMS epoch is fixed at 17-Nov-1858 00:00:00.000. http://vms.tuwien.ac.at/info/humour/vms-base-time-origin.txt Flexible is probably the wrong word. More useful is a better phrase, since is able to represent, and thus do arithmetic on 110 more years, in 100ns ticks instead of 1s ticks, than the Unix epoch. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Scooty Puff writes: Even those who run their own businesses are slaves to their customers. If your open-for-business hours are inconvenient for them, they'll go somewhere else. You could change your open-for-business hours to suit your customers without resetting the clocks in your home. However, I run my own business and I spring forward and fall back along with everyone else. I still think it is silly, though. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Paul E Condon wrote: You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie. Surely once you've enslaved yourself to the reading of the clock which you've set once, it's hardly a major step to keep enslaving yourself to it when you set it to something else? -- Avi Greenbury -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-31_08:25:57, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-30 21:47, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-30_18:57:33, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more flexibility... I'm not familiar with the OpenVMS epoch, but I don't believe flexibility in a definition of a epoch can make it better. Where can I read a discussion of the value of making a epoch flexible? And what on earth does it mean to make an epoch flexible? The VMS epoch is fixed at 17-Nov-1858 00:00:00.000. http://vms.tuwien.ac.at/info/humour/vms-base-time-origin.txt Flexible is probably the wrong word. More useful is a better phrase, since is able to represent, and thus do arithmetic on 110 more years, in 100ns ticks instead of 1s ticks, than the Unix epoch. 100ns is comparable to the period of the clocking of the CPU. No OS can produce time-stamps to the accuracy of a single period of the clocking of the CPU on which it is running. The logic of a lot of the processing of files is based on checking mtimes of the files. For this to continue to work correctly, some logic will have to be introduced to eliminate or ignore the jitter in these time data. This is added complexity, not improvement. Perhaps a tick period that is shorter than 1s might be justified some time in the future, jacking up the precision of the recording, without a concurrent program for a corresponding improvement in the accuracy of the clock, is madness, IMHO. As an example of the difficulties, consider a quad core CPU chip, with each core independently managing some files. There are race conditions in such a situation. Checking time stamps will surely not be an adequate way to resolve these race conditions. Extend this to a world wide network of a global corporation. There will be race conditions. By itself 100ns tick will not help in resolving these. In fact it will divert attention from viable solutions. We are on a clear path to having 64bit Unix clocks universally deployed well before they will actually be needed, so the added time span of the open nonsense proposal is inferior to what can easily be done within the Unix tradition. Just my $.02 -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-31 08:29, John Hasler wrote: Scooty Puff writes: Even those who run their own businesses are slaves to their customers. If your open-for-business hours are inconvenient for them, they'll go somewhere else. You could change your open-for-business hours to suit your customers without resetting the clocks in your home. However, I run my own business and I spring forward and fall back along with everyone else. I still think it is silly, though. Agreed. It's just *easier* to change some clocks than to change everything else in your life. But... PECs decision to to it his way in his house doesn't affect any of us. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:13:12PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Paul E Condon writes: The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO. Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue? Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all. Sure. Why not use a time zone based on the exact spot where you live? -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Johannes Wiedersich wrote: In the meantime it has proven to be a lot of hassle with no (or very little) benefit and - at least in my country - the vast majority is in favour of abolishing this enslaving of millions of biorythms. s/biorhythm/circadian rhythm/ Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM MT are now in MDT. Because summer time is a *bad* thing. Having a consistent time without an artificial shift twice a year is the *right* thing. Besides it has nothing to do with democracy except that the ruling politicians of the time thought it might be a good idea to try on their subjects. In the meantime it has proven to be a lot of hassle with no (or very little) benefit and - at least in my country - the vast majority is in favour of abolishing this enslaving of millions of biorythms. Cheers, Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
I wrote: Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all. Tzafrir Cohen writes: Sure. Why not use a time zone based on the exact spot where you live? Why not use time zones based on voluntary standards? People can and do agree on things without compulsion. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't you just tell your OS that you live in Arizona? That's Mountain Time, and they don't do DST, IIRC. - -- Glenn English g...@slsware.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknQyxoACgkQ04yQfZbbTLYFXACdFeCZWTWWVmEvZl/+0ZxzJIfu ec8AnRvj3OqRne5yLjD+HHEEbQ/WA2bk =ptjg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 07:37:30AM -0600, ghe wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't you just tell your OS that you live in Arizona? That's Mountain Time, and they don't do DST, IIRC. Indeed: $ zdump -v /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Phoenix | grep 2009 [nothing] Alternatively, just compile your own time zone. The binary timezone file is portable at least among various Linux libc-s (IIRC uclibc also supports it). IIRC some other OSes support exactly the same binary format, but I'm not sure. For more information, see zic(8) -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30_07:37:30, ghe wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't you just tell your OS that you live in Arizona? That's Mountain Time, and they don't do DST, IIRC. After I learned where to look on this list, I looked there, and found some very nice advance work by the developers responsible for maintenance of tzdata. When one runs dpkg-reconfigure tzdata, one sees a list of continental region designations. At the bottom of the list is Etc. If one selects that item, one is presented with a multitude of options that mostly begin with GMT- or GMT+. These are 'time zones' that are simple hourly offsets from GMT without local legal mandates. The senses of GMT- and GMT+ are the reverse of what I first guessed. These are better than Arizona for me. With the collapse of cranky conservativism, Arizona might take up daylight saving time, but GMT+7 should not change. It is the local time for the 105degrees west meridion. The list contains some synonyms: GMT GMT0 GMT+0 GMT-0 Greenwich UCT UTC Universal Zulu all seem to invoke the same interpretation of Unix time. GMT+12 and GMT-12 are there, and they are not the synonyms. They differ by one day in the date. This applies also to GMT-13 and GMT-14. They are not the same as GMT+11 and GMT+10. I guess that the developers responsible for maintenance of time-zone code that includes local-mandates/social-conventions, keep the code for these hourly offsets as a starting point for patching in new legal/local logic. I appreciate them giving it mnemonic names and making it available for general use, via the Etc designation. I am continually amazed by Debian. Every day in every way it gets better and better. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30_09:41:58, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:13:12PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Paul E Condon writes: The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO. Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue? Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all. Sure. Why not use a time zone based on the exact spot where you live? FYI. GMT definition is based on an exact spot with in the campus of the old Greenwich Observatory (which has now been decommissioned). Telescopes to the east or the west of that spot by about 289 meters have local time that is 1s different from GMT. I don't know whether there was ever a telescope at the exact spot that has been used as reference. Astronomers knew how to make corrections for differing locations of telescopes well before Greenwich became the consensus reference location. The exact spot may have been selected with some intent to please a royal person. It was because they new how to make corrections that it became valuable to select a common reference point. The early French referenced a meridian that was some number of degrees minutes and seconds of arc to the west of Paris. They never mentioned Greenwich, but their reference meridian happened to be the one on which Greenwich was located. Strange accident? I think not. Most astronomical observatories do have a clock set to local time and the astronomers think nothing of it. They would be seriously put out if local authorities wanted them to set that clock to standard or daylight time. This astronomical work has all been done to a precision that is vastly greater than my personal needs. I live within 6 minutes of arc of the 105 west meridian. I can live with using local time on that meridian. But exact spot? That would imply different clock settings in different rooms of one's home. Not for me. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. How I can do this? Thank You for Your time. Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it. Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter. If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse yourself when looking at any other clock? Precisely Hugo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. How I can do this? Thank You for Your time. Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it. Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter. If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds since Epoch, or just Unix time. All the stuff about displaying year, month, day, AM/PM, and other human cultural things is done in software that reads the Unix clock and translates the reading into one of many different forms with which humans are more comfortable. The issue, for me, has been which of these human forms is displayed on my computer, and how do I control that choice. I think it would be crazy to switch to a different clock internally in the computer. It is seconds since Epoch, and always will be, so long as Linux/Unix/POSIX exists, IMHO. UTC is available as a translation. You can get it, if you want, by selecting Etc:UTC in dpkg-reconfigure tzdata. You can display a decimal representation of the binary number in the Unix clock in your computer by issuing the command date +%s. Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse yourself when looking at any other clock? -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 02:50:55PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. [snip] If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds beg to differ, I believe the time is kept relative to UTC and the recording method is unix time since Epoch, or just Unix time. All the stuff about displaying year, month, day, AM/PM, and other human cultural things is done in software that reads the Unix clock and translates the reading into one of many different forms with which humans are more comfortable. The issue, for me, has been which of these human forms is displayed on my computer, and how do I control that choice. I think it would be crazy to switch to a different clock internally in the computer. It is seconds since Epoch, and always will be, so long as Linux/Unix/POSIX exists, IMHO. UTC is available as a translation. You can get it, if you want, by selecting Etc:UTC in dpkg-reconfigure tzdata. I believe all this does is change the default system time zone try this date ; TZ=UTC date Tue Mar 31 07:57:14 EST 2009 Mon Mar 30 20:57:14 UTC 2009 date is sensitive to the TZ variable I am in Oz You can display a decimal representation of the binary number in the Unix clock in your computer by issuing the command date +%s. Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse yourself when looking at any other clock? -- As far as the legal hassling and wrangling and posturing in Florida, I would suggest you talk to our team in Florida led by Jim Baker. - George W. Bush 11/30/2000 Crawford, TX signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds since Epoch, or just Unix time. The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows seconds since it's epoch. And that's (I think) translated to a struct or string (but not integer, like in Unix) which the kernel reads at boot. But on the 90% of machines that run Windows, that BIOS time is local. On single-boot Linux and BSD machines (not sure about OSX, though), the BIOS clock is ABSOLUTELY set to GMT/UTC. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-31_07:58:03, Alex Samad wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 02:50:55PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. [snip] If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds beg to differ, I believe the time is kept relative to UTC and the recording method is unix time In Linux hosts, the time that is used is a reading of the software clock on the host, i.e. the computer. Most people choose to keep this clock set to agree with an NTP server. But the clock in the compute is Unix time, with errors associated with constantly resetting it via NTP, not UTC. Appropriate format settings in date, translate it so that it looks like UTC, but the traceablity to UTC, is ... not so good. Good enough for most computer network work, but not really up to snuff by other standards. It is 'virtually the same', or 'the same for all practical purposes', or some other phrase that indicates that you are skipping over details. My point was that the clock is a local, rather low tech piece of hardware that had been set to agree with UTC at some time in the fairly recent past, as opposed to it's clock is most likely UTC. UTC is based on TAI, but with leap seconds. TAI has its own Epoch back in the late '50s or early '60s. It is always represented with this fact suppressed by adding into the seconds count, an offset that is based on the conventional calculation of seconds since the birth of Christ in the Gregorian calendar. since Epoch, or just Unix time. All the stuff about displaying year, month, day, AM/PM, and other human cultural things is done in software that reads the Unix clock and translates the reading into one of many different forms with which humans are more comfortable. The issue, for me, has been which of these human forms is displayed on my computer, and how do I control that choice. I think it would be crazy to switch to a different clock internally in the computer. It is seconds since Epoch, and always will be, so long as Linux/Unix/POSIX exists, IMHO. UTC is available as a translation. You can get it, if you want, by selecting Etc:UTC in dpkg-reconfigure tzdata. I believe all this does is change the default system time zone try this date ; TZ=UTC date Tue Mar 31 07:57:14 EST 2009 Mon Mar 30 20:57:14 UTC 2009 date is sensitive to the TZ variable Look at one of my earlier posts. This fact is handled rather nicely in tzdata. I think you will not find any mistakes in the handling of the tranlation of the reading from the Unix clock into any time-zone format. I am in Oz You probably have more day-to-day hassles about the International Date Line than I do here in Colorado. To me, it is largely a theoretical issue. Although I did get some feel for the confusion when my daughter lived for a while in NZ ;-) -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30_16:21:39, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds since Epoch, or just Unix time. The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows seconds since it's epoch. And that's (I think) translated to a struct or string True, seconds since it's epoch, but it's epoch is not Unix Epoch, and all sorts of uncertainties and confusions arise because nobody knows the DOS epoch of someone else's computer. What a mess! At least with Unix there is only one epoch to argue about, rather than millions and millions in all the Windows computers in the world. The implementation of time keeping in Debian/GNU/Linux is actually quite well done. I had not been aware of how well done until recently while engaging in this discussion. I have issues with some of the descriptions of it that I perceive to be sloppily worded. I think too many descriptions are written with an eye to shutting up a person who asks question than to describing how thing actually work. Debian does pretty well at avoiding these conventional falsehoods. (I think of answers to Where do babies come from? for instance.) Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 01:09:10PM EDT, Paul E Condon wrote: [..] FYI. GMT definition is based on an exact spot with in the campus of the old Greenwich Observatory (which has now been decommissioned). Telescopes to the east or the west of that spot by about 289 meters have local time that is 1s different from GMT. I don't know whether there was ever a telescope at the exact spot that has been used as reference. Astronomers knew how to make corrections for differing locations of telescopes well before Greenwich became the consensus reference location. The exact spot may have been selected with some intent to please a royal person. It was because they new how to make corrections that it became valuable to select a common reference point. The early French referenced a meridian that was some number of degrees minutes and seconds of arc to the west of Paris. They never mentioned Greenwich, but their reference meridian happened to be the one on which Greenwich was located. Strange accident? I think not. Rule Britannia.. Britannia rule the waves.. (?) Most astronomical observatories do have a clock set to local time and the astronomers think nothing of it. They would be seriously put out if local authorities wanted them to set that clock to standard or daylight time. This astronomical work has all been done to a precision that is vastly greater than my personal needs. I live within 6 minutes of arc of the 105 west meridian. I can live with using local time on that meridian. Would that be Boulder, CO..? I vaguely remember that my alarm clock sync's to its master over there, but I can't seem to get ahold of its manual just now. But exact spot? That would imply different clock settings in different rooms of one's home. Not for me. Fancy that.. under our latitudes, when your house is a few hundred yards wide.. never mind.. I've overstayed my welcome on this here list. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
[..] Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse yourself when looking at any other clock? You do know how Albert Einstein graduated from peculiar moron to universal genius..? CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument, seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances anyway. Cheers, Tom -- I once decorated my apartment entirely in ten foot salad forks!! signature.asc Description: Digital signature
[OT] To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon March 30 2009 16:12:57 Tom Furie wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument, seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances anyway. In which case, you wouldn't mind randomly sleeping sixteen hours or zero hours with equal probability because in the long run it all balances anyway? --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30 17:52, Chris Jones wrote: [snip] Would that be Boulder, CO..? I vaguely remember that my alarm clock sync's to its master over there, but I can't seem to get ahold of its manual just now. http://tf.nist.gov/cesium/fountain.htm http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvb.htm -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30 17:47, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-30_16:21:39, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds since Epoch, or just Unix time. The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows seconds since it's epoch. And that's (I think) translated to a struct or string True, seconds since it's epoch, but it's epoch is not Unix Epoch, and all sorts of uncertainties and confusions arise because nobody knows the DOS epoch of someone else's computer. What a mess! At least with Unix there is only one epoch to argue about, rather than millions and millions in all the Windows computers in the world. The implementation of time keeping in Debian/GNU/Linux is actually It's more Unix/Posix and RFC 1305. Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more flexibility... [snip] Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. Besides, as Tom Furie mentioned losing an hour of sleep, what's really happening is that you are shifting/rotating your UTC offset by 1 hour. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. Most people are very sloppy at thinking logically. [troll]Can women even do it?[/troll] -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 07:47:50PM EDT, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-30 17:52, Chris Jones wrote: [snip] Would that be Boulder, CO..? I vaguely remember that my alarm clock sync's to its master over there, but I can't seem to get ahold of its manual just now. http://tf.nist.gov/cesium/fountain.htm http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvb.htm Thanks, and I hope it will benefit others as well. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-31_00:12:57, Tom Furie wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument, seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances anyway. Cheers, Tom You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie. Cheers and Peace. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30_16:39:46, Mike Bird wrote: On Mon March 30 2009 16:12:57 Tom Furie wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument, seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances anyway. In which case, you wouldn't mind randomly sleeping sixteen hours or zero hours with equal probability because in the long run it all balances anyway? That's silly. I said nothing to suggest that I advocate randomness in ordering one's life. What I said, put another way, is that when the clock reading is an hour later than it feels like, and when you can remember moving it setting an hour forward the previous evening, it is strangely irrational to claim that there has been a discontinuity in time during the night. Saying that losing an hour is just of figure of speach, but then actually believing its literal meaning is ... Well, I am speachless at such an admission. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30_18:57:33, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-30 17:47, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-30_16:21:39, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC, rather it is seconds since Unix Epoch, often shortened to seconds since Epoch, or just Unix time. The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows seconds since it's epoch. And that's (I think) translated to a struct or string True, seconds since it's epoch, but it's epoch is not Unix Epoch, and all sorts of uncertainties and confusions arise because nobody knows the DOS epoch of someone else's computer. What a mess! At least with Unix there is only one epoch to argue about, rather than millions and millions in all the Windows computers in the world. The implementation of time keeping in Debian/GNU/Linux is actually It's more Unix/Posix and RFC 1305. Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more flexibility... I'm not familiar with the OpenVMS epoch, but I don't believe flexibility in a definition of a epoch can make it better. Where can I read a discussion of the value of making a epoch flexible? And what on earth does it mean to make an epoch flexible? [snip] Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional wording, it is manifestly untrue. Besides, as Tom Furie mentioned losing an hour of sleep, what's really happening is that you are shifting/rotating your UTC offset by 1 hour. Yes, Shifting/rotating is what I call changing the setting on your clock. Using words that suggest a break in the fabric of time vastly over state the powers of Man. But if people say it often enough, it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact. Most people are very sloppy at thinking logically. [troll]Can women even do it?[/troll] Progress! in coming to see my point. You can say things about women that you cannot yet admit about yourself. :-) -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30 21:19, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie. Any person living in any society is a slave to any number of things. The larger and more complicated the society, the more things you are slave to. Even a hermit who lives in a cave and grows/catches his/her own food is slave to the seasons, the weather, the rising/setting of the sun, etc, etc. I used to believe that I could be my own island, but it's just not true. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Mon, Mar 30 2009, Paul E Condon wrote: You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie. On the other hand, I get up an hour early because I am addicted to eating. I have to mesh my activities with other folks, and they start work at a time that is an hour earlier in the summer. Grocery stores, Pharmacies, movie theaters -- things that affect my schedule -- all shift. It is moronic to not juet get up in sync with the activities and schedules that make up my life. If you think it is nonsensical, I truly feel sorry for you. It must be lonely out where you are. And so, yes, I sleep a little less in spring, and get an hour extra in the fall. Not because I am a slavef to the clock, but I am not geeky enough to think I live on an island, entire of itself. manoj -- It's men like him that give the Y chromosome a bad name. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@acm.org http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Good day. Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. How I can do this? Thank You for Your time. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:29:41PM +0800, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. How I can do this? This is a non-issue. The NTP server should always use GMT. Your system will translate it to its local time zone, if needed. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. How I can do this? Thank You for Your time. Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it. Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region? For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do not like. And let's see what OP was really asking for also. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote: Good day. Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. How I can do this? Thank You for Your time. Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it. Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter. If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely UTC. Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse yourself when looking at any other clock? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region? For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do not like. And let's see what OP was really asking for also. I'm a bit lost on this. When I install Lenny I am asked when I choose a timezone whether I want the system time (as opposed to hwclock, which I keep in UTC (or GMT)) to be adjusted for summer time or not. I say yes. So that is what I get. Could someone please explain, I genuinely don't understand :-(, why it is so difficult to say no? There presumably is a reason. Is it a bug? Am I just very lucky? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:07:54AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region? For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do not like. And let's see what OP was really asking for also. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net cat /etc/timezone - mine reads /Etc/GMT Run dpkg-reconfigure -plow tzdata Scroll down to None of the above - and choose GMT or the appropriate offset. Done :) AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Paul E Condon writes: Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it. Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Nicaragua are purportedly GMT -6 (which is the same as CST) with no DST. Run dpkg-reconfigure tzdata, pick one of those countries, and you'll be all set. Alternatively, you could create your own zone. man zic. However, I must reiterate that NTP has nothing to do with either time zones or daylight-savings time. It deals exclusively in UTC. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region? For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do not like. And let's see what OP was really asking for also. I'm a bit lost on this. When I install Lenny I am asked when I choose a timezone whether I want the system time (as opposed to hwclock, which I keep in UTC (or GMT)) to be adjusted for summer time or not. I say yes. So that is what I get. Could someone please explain, I genuinely don't understand :-(, why it is so difficult to say no? There presumably is a reason. Is it a bug? Am I just very lucky? Lisi A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Paul E Condon writes: I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. You can configure your timezone independently of your locale. See my previous message in this thread. Your locale is just a bunch of environment variables grouped for convenience. For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. For me Daylight Savings Time has always been idiocy. BTW your file mtimes are stored in Unix time and converted to your timezone for display. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:49:22 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region? For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do not like. And let's see what OP was really asking for also. I'm a bit lost on this. When I install Lenny I am asked when I choose a timezone whether I want the system time (as opposed to hwclock, which I keep in UTC (or GMT)) to be adjusted for summer time or not. I say yes. So that is what I get. Could someone please explain, I genuinely don't understand :-(, why it is so difficult to say no? There presumably is a reason. Is it a bug? Am I just very lucky? Lisi A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. But my locale is set to the UK, and we have summer time (or daylight saving time). We lost the hour from 1:00 to 2:00 last night. So are you saying that the choice I am given is a non-choice and that I would get the same thing even if I answered no? Or are you saying that some locales are more dictatorial than others? Lisi Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:53:57AM -0500, John Hasler wrote: For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. For me Daylight Savings Time has always been idiocy. BTW your file mtimes are stored in Unix time and converted to your timezone for display. And the time zone includes definitions of daylight saving time. $ zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2009 /etc/localtime Thu Mar 26 23:59:59 2009 UTC = Fri Mar 27 01:59:59 2009 IST isdst=0 gmtoff=7200 /etc/localtime Fri Mar 27 00:00:00 2009 UTC = Fri Mar 27 03:00:00 2009 IDT isdst=1 gmtoff=10800 /etc/localtime Sat Sep 26 22:59:59 2009 UTC = Sun Sep 27 01:59:59 2009 IDT isdst=1 gmtoff=10800 /etc/localtime Sat Sep 26 23:00:00 2009 UTC = Sun Sep 27 01:00:00 2009 IST isdst=0 gmtoff=7200 So generally there's no need to change a timezone to make the DST take effect. Just set the proper time zone in advance. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM MT are now in MDT. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
AndyC writes: Run dpkg-reconfigure -plow tzdata Scroll down to None of the above - and choose GMT or the appropriate offset. This is much better than my suggestion of choosing a country with the appropriate offset. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Tzafrir Cohen writes: So generally there's no need to change a timezone to make the DST take effect. Just set the proper time zone in advance. DST taking effect automatically is exactly what Paul is objecting to. He wants no DST at all. AndyC has provided a solution. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_13:06:18, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM MT are now in MDT. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. In public, I pretend to be a bleeding heart liberal/progressive, but I am a closet libertarian. Its my computer, in the privacy of my home. I like to have the time of sunrise as displayed on the clock harmonized with what I know of the motion of the planet. Also, a little anarchy can be a good thing. Peace. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_17:14:44, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:49:22 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? Sure. Many time zones have no daylight savings or summer time. Just pick an appropriate one or create your own. What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server. NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with time shift. What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach. -- John Hasler I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region? For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do not like. And let's see what OP was really asking for also. I'm a bit lost on this. When I install Lenny I am asked when I choose a timezone whether I want the system time (as opposed to hwclock, which I keep in UTC (or GMT)) to be adjusted for summer time or not. I say yes. So that is what I get. Could someone please explain, I genuinely don't understand :-(, why it is so difficult to say no? There presumably is a reason. Is it a bug? Am I just very lucky? Lisi A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. But my locale is set to the UK, and we have summer time (or daylight saving time). We lost the hour from 1:00 to 2:00 last night. So are you saying that the choice I am given is a non-choice and that I would get the same thing even if I answered no? Or are you saying that some locales are more dictatorial than others? Lisi In my opinion, you did not lose an hour. You reset your clock. You reset your clock because everybody else reset their clocks. I have no quarrel with conforming in this way when I am in public, but in my own home, sitting at my own computer, I like to keep my own time. I now how to use NTP to support this habit. As to dictatorial, no. You surely want to reset your clock. If there were a dictatorial regime in US that mandated, under pain of some punishment, that I reset my clock, I might plot against them, but I would reset my clock. But we don't have a dictatorship here, just the aftermath of a really disfunctional regime. All locales are the result of well meaning people trying to be helpful. But some people don't want some help. Another thought. This morning the sun did not rise an hour later than yesterday. It actually rose a little bit earlier. What also happened is that you, and almost everybody else in UK reset their clocks. The same thing happened a few weeks ago here in US. Slightly more philosophically. Time happens. It was happening long before man had clocks, and will continue to happen long after we are gone. While we are here, and have clocks, there is some benefit in having some level of agreement as to how we set our clocks, but only up to a point. The whole time-zone thing is because globalization can only go so far, and then reality forces disagreement among peoples of the world. Disagreement is part of the human condition. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29 14:05, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_13:06:18, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM MT are now in MDT. In public, I pretend to be a bleeding heart liberal/progressive, but I am a closet libertarian. Its my computer, in the privacy of my home. I like to have the time of sunrise as displayed on the clock harmonized with what I know of the motion of the planet. So, do you reset your clock every day to make it so that your clock's noon is the same as solar noon? If not, then you are just deluding yourself. Also, a little anarchy can be a good thing. A *little* anarchy. But not much. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29 13:27, John Hasler wrote: Tzafrir Cohen writes: So generally there's no need to change a timezone to make the DST take effect. Just set the proper time zone in advance. DST taking effect automatically is exactly what Paul is objecting to. He wants no DST at all. AndyC has provided a solution. Tell him to move to Arizona!!! -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_11:53:57, John Hasler wrote: Paul E Condon writes: I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time, ever. You can configure your timezone independently of your locale. See my previous message in this thread. Your locale is just a bunch of environment variables grouped for convenience. For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. For me Daylight Savings Time has always been idiocy. BTW your file mtimes are stored in Unix time and converted to your timezone for display. So the inodes in Linux file systems will have to get bigger when 64bit Unix time really comes into eeffective use. Do you know anything about the plans for this transition? With the recent explosion in the size of hard disks there will be a hell of a lot if inodes to rewrite! I don't think this is a problem, and I doubt that I'll be around when a 32bit Unix time counter rolls over. Just something to wonder about... -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Paul E Condon writes: So the inodes in Linux file systems will have to get bigger when 64bit Unix time really comes into eeffective use. Do you know anything about the plans for this transition? Ext4 solves the timestamp problem. With the recent explosion in the size of hard disks there will be a hell of a lot if inodes to rewrite! Not necessary. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 05:02:17PM EDT, Ron Johnson wrote: Tzafrir Cohen writes: DST taking effect automatically is exactly what Paul is objecting to. He wants no DST at all. AndyC has provided a solution. Tell him to move to Arizona!!! Silly me.. I felt all along there was one good reason why one would want to move there. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:49:22AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. Silly question why would you want to not follow local time ? -- The enemy understands a free Iraq will be a major defeat in their ideology of hatred. That's why they're fighting so vociferously. - George W. Bush 09/30/2004 first presidential debate, Coral Gables, Fla. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-30_10:31:27, Alex Samad wrote: On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:49:22AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. Silly question why would you want to not follow local time ? I do follow local *standard* time, which is the local time for the west 105deg meridian. I live in Lafayette, Colorado, which is at 105deg.6' west. Local time here is 24 seconds delayed from local time at the central meridian of this zone, and about a minute later than the local time for Denver. That is close enough for me. I'm really not an extremist ;-) -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29 20:47, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-30_10:31:27, Alex Samad wrote: On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:49:22AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. Silly question why would you want to not follow local time ? I do follow local *standard* time, which is the local time for the west 105deg meridian. I live in Lafayette, Colorado, which is at 105deg.6' west. Local time here is 24 seconds delayed from local time at the central meridian of this zone, and about a minute later than the local time for Denver. That is close enough for me. I'm really not an extremist ;-) MDT is active for 7 months and 3 weeks, which means that it is the de facto standard. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_20:58:05, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 20:47, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-30_10:31:27, Alex Samad wrote: On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:49:22AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote: Strong and Humble writes: Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no winter time shift whole year? [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. Silly question why would you want to not follow local time ? I do follow local *standard* time, which is the local time for the west 105deg meridian. I live in Lafayette, Colorado, which is at 105deg.6' west. Local time here is 24 seconds delayed from local time at the central meridian of this zone, and about a minute later than the local time for Denver. That is close enough for me. I'm really not an extremist ;-) MDT is active for 7 months and 3 weeks, which means that it is the de facto standard. It will change. The 105 west meridian, the rising and setting of the Sun, are more lasting than a de-facto standard. I am content with what I am doing. It is really wierd raising this little scruple to something that it is not. I've learned how to effect a satisfactory solution to my problem. Now I'm willing to move on. The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO. Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue? But there was no budget for going after schoff-laws, maybe. Or maybe the government is more sensible about some enforcement than some would expect. Or maybe some on this list misunderestimate, or whatever. -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29_16:01:29, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 14:05, Paul E Condon wrote: On 2009-03-29_13:06:18, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing. That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM MT are now in MDT. In public, I pretend to be a bleeding heart liberal/progressive, but I am a closet libertarian. Its my computer, in the privacy of my home. I like to have the time of sunrise as displayed on the clock harmonized with what I know of the motion of the planet. So, do you reset your clock every day to make it so that your clock's noon is the same as solar noon? If not, then you are just deluding yourself. Way upstream in this thread I gave what I thought to be an informative and polite reason for my interest in controlling the visiual presentation time values on my computer screen. Later you mention Jim Crow laws. I agree with you that Jim Crow laws are really BAD. This little preference of mine is in no danger of metastasizing into a serious moral issue. Believe me. The regular movement of the time of noon over the span of a year is part of reality that I know, understand, and to some extent, treasure. I think I am not in denial about who I am, or where I am. Unless, of course, it turns our on further investigation that we are all just software objects instantiated by a computer simulation of life being run on a giant computer on a planet circling Alpha Centauri. But how could we ever learn that? -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Paul E Condon writes: The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO. Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue? Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all. But there was no budget for going after schoff-laws, maybe. I don't think the law applies to individuals. I think it is one of those things that the state governments must comply with or lose their handouts. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
On 2009-03-29 21:56, Paul E Condon wrote: [snip] The regular movement of the time of noon over the span of a year is part of reality that I know, understand, and to some extent, treasure. I think I am not in denial about who I am, or where I am. Unless, of course, it turns our on further investigation that we are all just software objects instantiated by a computer simulation of life being run on a giant computer on a planet circling Alpha Centauri. But how could we ever learn that? Wrong movie... -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Freedom is not a license for anarchy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
